Muley fanatic foundation

fullthrottle

fullthrottle

Very Active Member
Messages
1,361
I've been thinking about sending this organization some cash, they seem like they are making a pretty good effort to help out mule deer, particularly in Wyoming. Just curious if anyone had any experience or opinion about them. Seems like groups can either be really good or really corrupt. I'm all for helping out the good ones.
 
I am a member because largely I think they use my money wisely. The D.E.E.R project is, IMO, helpful. They support boots on the ground projects which I think is lacking in many conservation organizations. Corrupt is not a word I would ever associate with MFF. If you do decide to join be prepared for a bombardment of emails. It is over the top in my opinion. Other than that annoyance, I like the group.
 
I think they are pretty inefficient with their donation money. They lost me when they were hosting women only hunters safety courses. WTF does that have to do with mule deer?

They are no better than MDF...
 
...when money is involved...they all become corrupt...takes a few years....

All conservation groups start with good intentions....

497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
There are a lot less Mule Deer in WY now than when MFF started. Not blaming them for the decline, but sure not gonna give them credit for making a difference either. MFF could have the voice to change things but most of there members are against a resident draw, and that is what has to happen. Should have happened 10-15 years ago. Truly sad what has become of the once great WY range Mule Deer. Those of you who think WY Mule Deer are doing fine. Are wrong!
 
I'll post up the tax docs when I get home. Gross 600k pay out 205k in wages. That has to be one of the worst returns ever! But Hey!

Banquets!

Photo shoots!

Newsletters!

All for conservation!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-17 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-17
>>AT 03:01?PM (MST)
>>
>>They each make 100k
>
>Josh & Joey?


Yes, here is the link:

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2015/453/578/2015-453578215-0d831da1-9.pdf

Go to page 7.


I believe donating to some of the wildlife organizations is a placebo effect, it feels good but not much gets done. Of course this is all just my opinion.

Looking into all of the organizations I feel the best bang for my buck is Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA). I know of many people that are of neither (hikers, photographers) that donate to BHA. That says a lot right there.

With unlimited funds I would support them all. But I'm on a budget and I would say MFF is close to the bottom for me as far as getting $$$.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-17 AT 10:03AM (MST)[p]The upside to MFF is 70% of funds raised at the local level stay at the local level, and 30% goes to the main headquarters. The local chapter decides what projects to fund with their money. All the other organizations I have ever belonged 100% of the money goes to the state or national headquarters with little to no money ever returning to local projects.
 
>There are a lot less Mule
>Deer in WY now than
>when MFF started. Not blaming
>them for the decline, but
>sure not gonna give them
>credit for making a difference
>either. MFF could have the
>voice to change things but
>most of there members are
>against a resident draw, and
>that is what has to
>happen. Should have happened 10-15
>years ago. Truly sad what
>has become of the once
>great WY range Mule Deer.
>Those of you who think
>WY Mule Deer are doing
>fine. Are wrong!

I'm not a member, but I'm not sure it be correct to say all there members are against a LQ draw. It appears there getting some money back to funding studies and wildlife projects, which is always a good thing. However, from events I've watched I'm not sure yet there position on LQ vs. OTC tags. I watched the G&F commission meetings and MFF stood right up there with the outfitters about closing Area 135 the same time as the rest of Region G & H and this was after all the public meetings with proposed closing dates of October 3rd for all G area and Oct. 8th for 135. MFF didn't comment once about not following what the PUBLIC didn't have a problem with and that was a closing date of October 3rd for Region G & H areas. They readily jumped in when it came to shortening 135 from October 8 to the 6th to avoid the "hunter shift" that became a hot button item. MFF cited the Wyoming Range Deer Management plan that has been wanting to close all of G areas on the same date, but they sure didn't step to the plate in open meeting and argue for the Oct. 3rd closure that the PUBLIC didn't have a problem with when outfitters were asking for the October 6th closure...
Perhaps I should go to more of their open meetings to find out their positions. Some may argue on their salaries, but I can also understand the time and effort it takes to raise funds, create sponsor relationships and travel to every little town event in their focus area to get their message out. I've been to only 1 of their meetings and since get emails regularly from them on their latest fundraiser which is usually every week. If they weren't doing something right, they wouldn't be able to have the amount of sponsors they have now.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-17
>AT 10:03?AM (MST)
>
>The upside to MFF is 70%
>of funds raised at the
>local level stay at the
>local level, and 30% goes
>to the main headquarters. The
>local chapter decides what projects
>to fund with their money.
> All the other organizations
>I have ever belonged 100%
>of the money goes to
>the state or national headquarters
>with little to no money
>ever returning to local projects.
>

Yes that has been their selling point. The problem is when you run with such big salaries and expenses you're getting a bad ROI with your money.

I dug deeper into their spending etc last night and its quite embarrassing. The money they spent for advertising is complete nepotism to the core. Quite the racket for sure.

Hey theres a banquet next week, for conservation!
 
MFF is a much smaller organization than MDF, and is getting quite a bit done in WY for such a small group of members. A friend who is a biologist for WY would much rather work with MFF. Lots of coordination with volunteers, etc.

It is always interesting to see people think these guys should work for free. Reportable compensation on these forms includes health insurance, etc., and with an average 38% cost of benefits this is much closer to a $65K salary. Not bad, but not really excessive, either. And MFF only has these two paid employees. Compare that to MDF, and you will see a huge difference.

I realize the data link above is for 2015, and MFF is a fairly new group. I think you will see quite a bump in contributions, etc., and funded programs in 2016 and 2017. I think they still have their priorities straight, and seem to be making a difference. I do support them (modestly), and continue to keep my eye on the spending habits and results of all the groups I donate to.

Bill
 
The only thing I will say on this topic is this...

Any group of people or any organization that sides with WYGOA and then claims to be for the public of Wyoming IMO is either:

1. misinformed
2. having the wool pulled over their eyes
or
3. are not for the Wyoming resident sportsman
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-17 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]>MFF is a much smaller organization
>than MDF, and is getting
>quite a bit done in
>WY for such a small
>group of members. A friend
>who is a biologist for
>WY would much rather work
>with MFF. Lots of coordination
>with volunteers, etc.
>
>It is always interesting to see
>people think these guys should
>work for free. Reportable compensation
>on these forms includes health
>insurance, etc., and with an
>average 38% cost of benefits
>this is much closer to
>a $65K salary. Not bad,
>but not really excessive, either.
>And MFF only has these
>two paid employees. Compare that
>to MDF, and you will
>see a huge difference.
>
>I realize the data link above
>is for 2015, and MFF
>is a fairly new group.
>I think you will see
>quite a bump in contributions,
>etc., and funded programs in
>2016 and 2017. I think
>they still have their priorities
>straight, and seem to be
>making a difference. I do
>support them (modestly), and continue
>to keep my eye on
>the spending habits and results
>of all the groups I
>donate to.
>
>Bill

You are way off on your percent of benefits. That figure might be close as compared to what an employee might spend themselves on benefits, but not the employer. Check page 10

Either way, the ROI is horrible for MFF.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-17 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]>MFF is a much smaller organization
>than MDF, and is getting
>quite a bit done in
>WY for such a small
>group of members. A friend
>who is a biologist for
>WY would much rather work
>with MFF. Lots of coordination
>with volunteers, etc.
>
>It is always interesting to see
>people think these guys should
>work for free. Reportable compensation
>on these forms includes health
>insurance, etc., and with an
>average 38% cost of benefits
>this is much closer to
>a $65K salary. Not bad,
>but not really excessive, either.
>And MFF only has these
>two paid employees. Compare that
>to MDF, and you will
>see a huge difference.
>
>I realize the data link above
>is for 2015, and MFF
>is a fairly new group.
>I think you will see
>quite a bump in contributions,
>etc., and funded programs in
>2016 and 2017. I think
>they still have their priorities
>straight, and seem to be
>making a difference. I do
>support them (modestly), and continue
>to keep my eye on
>the spending habits and results
>of all the groups I
>donate to.
>
>Bill

What is the difference they are making? I bet your buddy the biologist likes them, MFF gave two grants out, 1 to WGFD and 1 to UW. Who doesnt like someone that gives them money?

You are correct, MFF is small, is it necessary to have TWO full time employees and pay them each over 100k? Very few companies offer heath insurance to a two man crew. Fact. For such a small organization its even more important to watch $$$$.
 
Let me describe a typical MFF member:

Oil/gas worker. Bad for mule deer

Takes their animal to utah to get mounted. Buys their rifles etc in utah. Doesnt support local economy.

Limit quota for western wyo mule deer? Hell no! Limit non res. You know, its those evil non res! But lets go support their economy!

Shoot all the predators! Yup...because thats it!
 
Hey Awesome-You tend to make rash generalizations about certain groups of people. How are oil and gas workers all bad for mule deer? When you were researching all this, did you happen to notice how much money is donated to them from oil and gas companies? Don't forget how you fuel your vehicle and heat your home. No, I don't work in the oil and gas fields. I'm a retired railroader whose career depended on fossil fuels just like your entire existence does.

I take my animals to Utah to get them mounted. IMO, we don't have very good taxidermists here in RS. Haven't bought any guns in Utah; or vehicles. I support the local economy all the time. Your statements are way out there.

As a former member of MFF, I would agree with much of what you claim about them. I was an active member at one time( Projects Director). The original intentions of the group have become distorted and bastardized over time, IMO. Infiltration by WGF and BLM has influenced the core group also.

Prior to becoming MFF, this group of people were the most successful MDF chapter in existence for 2-3 years before we became disenfranchised with MDF and decided to go a different way. While I was not an original founder of the group, I was certainly involved very actively. The reasons I'm no longer with the group have all been mentioned by yourself and others, along with a few other reasons. Someone above mentioned that the decisions made by the PAC were to be autonomous from leadership. We were to decide how to allocate funds and for what projects. When the D.E.E.R. project came along, I was opposed to giving money to this, and MFF leadership came along and said that we WOULD be donating a significant amount of our funds to this project. So much for autonomy.. That was the beginning of the end for me.

You are also accurate on their salaries; with one exception. The guy that replaced me is now a full time employee as well. They must be paying him well, because he just retired as Chief of Police to go to work for MFF...
 
Don't know one thing about MFF but it sure sounds like it has same history and future that nearly all hunting/conservation groups evolve into. The original founders have great goals and aspirations and do a lot of positive things for our lifestyle but so many of them eventually morph into something very different from their founding objectives. Very sad and frustrating.

DC
 
I own a 2 person construction company.

We DO NOT make 6 figures, and we are a for profit company.

We do not, nor does any other small company have health insurance.

When those checks come in, My compensation is the last chunk. That's after suppliers, tools, trucks, etc. And often, my chunk goes to the former.

What is the average wage in Wyoming? $100k seems pretty high. And don't forget that's PROFIT. There trucks, gas, hotels, etc, etc get run through the "business". That $100k is after all that. If they have accountants worth a shiz, there trucks are company owned. So is mommas Tahoe.
Don't know them, but if the tax numbers posted are correct, YOUR getting screwed.

As for the rest, that one mount you have done down here, I more than compensate for with all the beer , lotto, and ponies I pay for up there.





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
SHHHHHHHHHH no more talking on this subject, Awesome the Western Wildlife Biologist has spoken and we all need to just listen now!!!!

Where woould we be without him?

《《《《《《KICKERBUCK》》》》》》
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17 AT 09:19AM (MST)[p]>Hey Awesome-You tend to make rash
>generalizations about certain groups of
>people. How are oil and
>gas workers all bad for
>mule deer? When you were
>researching all this, did you
>happen to notice how much
>money is donated to them
>from oil and gas companies?
>Don't forget how you fuel
>your vehicle and heat your
>home. No, I don't work
>in the oil and gas
>fields. I'm a retired railroader
>whose career depended on fossil
>fuels just like your entire
>existence does.
>
>I take my animals to Utah
>to get them mounted. IMO,
>we don't have very good
>taxidermists here in RS. Haven't
>bought any guns in Utah;
>or vehicles. I support the
>local economy all the time.
>Your statements are way out
>there.
>
>As a former member of MFF,
>I would agree with much
>of what you claim about
>them. I was an active
>member at one time( Projects
>Director). The original intentions of
>the group have become distorted
>and bastardized over time, IMO.
>Infiltration by WGF and BLM
>has influenced the core group
>also.
>
>Prior to becoming MFF, this group
>of people were the most
>successful MDF chapter in existence
>for 2-3 years before we
>became disenfranchised with MDF and
>decided to go a different
>way. While I was not
>an original founder of the
>group, I was certainly involved
>very actively. The reasons I'm
>no longer with the group
>have all been mentioned by
>yourself and others, along with
>a few other reasons. Someone
>above mentioned that the decisions
>made by the PAC were
>to be autonomous from leadership.
>We were to decide how
>to allocate funds and for
>what projects. When the D.E.E.R.
>project came along, I was
>opposed to giving money to
>this, and MFF leadership came
>along and said that we
>WOULD be donating a significant
>amount of our funds to
>this project. So much for
>autonomy.. That was the beginning
>of the end for me.
>
>
>You are also accurate on their
>salaries; with one exception. The
>guy that replaced me is
>now a full time employee
>as well. They must be
>paying him well, because he
>just retired as Chief of
>Police to go to work
>for MFF...

Thanks for your transparency cliff!

My comment about the oil/gas was mostly sarcasm. But how they drilled the mesa etc was bad IMHO. Walmost everything related to the boom was bad in relation to mule deer.

I know faiglrock and joshua get paid to read this website. Their silence says it all.

They are also out of compliance with both josh and joey being on the BOD.

Kickerbuck ill send you a hurt feelers report and a MFF coloring book. Keep you busy since you're trying to sit at thr big boy table...


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
Yep just google it. Also you want to see a good one google kickerbucks SFW...


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

#liveawesome
 
>Does anybody have any back ground
>salary/financial info on the Backcountry
>Hunters and anglers group?

Chief Exec makes about the same as Coursey, but Land Tawney oversees 22 state chapters, two provincial chapters, 500 life members and 16,000 members.

Our Wyoming Chapter is 100% volunteer.
 
Just a heads up to anyone that cares, Muley Fanatics announced today that their alternate to represent them in the Wyoming Sportsman's Alliance would be WYOGA President Jeff Smith from Seven J Outfitters.
 
>Yep just google it. Also
>you want to see a
>good one google kickerbucks SFW...
>
>
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>
>#liveawesome

Hahaha that's hillarious talk about hurt feelings you Googled me and told everyone else on here to do that? I've been on here 10 years and I don't think I've heard of that one yet :) I'm sure it's really exciting considering I don't have Facebook, twitter, Instagram, or any of the others. Everyone Google away!!!!

Seems like you make a negative comment on every post you make, and if someone says anything back you can't handle it? But to each their own, from now on you can call me any name you want or tell people to Google me and I'm not responding to you. That's not what MM is around for.

Now let's see if we can finish where this all started. On 12-7-17 Idasharp posted a video of a buck and cougar coming in on him, he said he saw 5 cats while scouting or something like that on the post.

I made a comment about predators and their rising #'s in Oregon and Woofs that are here now too. You responded how the woofs seemingly hadn't done damage to elk and deer herd #'s in WY, MT, ID. There were several guys that responded to you about it wondering what you meant including me but you never answered?????

Maybe you can fill in the blanks on that thread?



KICKERBUCK
 
>Just a heads up to anyone
>that cares, Muley Fanatics announced
>today that their alternate to
>represent them in the Wyoming
>Sportsman's Alliance would be WYOGA
>President Jeff Smith from Seven
>J Outfitters.

No surprise there!


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
How come every non-profit top 2-4 guys make six figures? Is it greed or what's the deal? Now I know why these guys are in Utah now- Just like getting a raise or a bonus- As for Back Country Hunters and Anglers. I'm not familiar so I google it and get websites like green decoys saying this: At a Glance
Environmentalist activism is the name of the game at BHA, and hunters and anglers are just the camouflage. BHA has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from environmentalist groups, and BHA executive director Land Tawney has a history of liberal election activism.

Background
Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA) represents itself as good-ole-boy outdoorsmen who simply want to hunt and fish and be left alone. But don't be fooled. As evidenced by both its sources of funding and current leadership, BHA is nothing more than a big green activist organization pushing a radical environmentalist agenda.

And there's more a lot more but I'm not up to the copy and paste. So what's the truth??? How do you know what to be a member of these days? Maybe I will just stick to playboy
 
What I've seen and read about BCH&A you assessment seems consistent with what I've come to understand.

Back to your first question, my opinion is it takes a 6 figure salary now days to hire the kind of people that can grow and lead a large non-profit organization, be it good or bad for hunting/fishing conservation. Guys that can do it and are willing to do it are worth that much to other businesses and won't work their butts off for less than they believe they can earn else where.

I could be wrong but that what it looks like to me.

DD
 
>What I've seen and read about
>BCH&A you assessment seems consistent
>with what I've come to
>understand.
>
>Back to your first question, my
>opinion is it takes a
>6 figure salary now days
>to hire the kind of
>people that can grow and
>lead a large non-profit organization,
>be it good or bad
>for hunting/fishing conservation. Guys
>that can do it and
>are willing to do it
>are worth that much to
>other businesses and won't work
>their butts off for less
>than they believe they can
>earn else where.
>
>I could be wrong but that
>what it looks like to
>me.
>
>DD

Once again Lump you speak about something you know nothing about. Do you happen to see "Hunters & Anglers" in the title? That's exactly what that means. It amazes me, no actually it doesn't, how folks like you run their mouths based on a google search or phony website.

Trust me, if you can, you certainly want my advise on hunting Wyoming, that BHA is the most sportsman representative organization I've ever been involved in.

Maybe that's why I am a Wyoming board co-chair and life member.
 
Well........ again, based on what I've read on Google, based on the posts I've read made on this forum and other forums by folks that have claimed they are members, such as yourself, and others, And based on individuals I know personally, I will stand my comment where in I said I thought ihunt4200 had made the correct assumption about Back Cointry Hunters & Anglers.

What you think of your organization is fine with me, nor does it surprise me that you would defend it and support it with your time and resources. It certainly does reforce my beliefs about the organization.

People judge organizations that I support and invest my time and resources in too.........by me, and other members, so I understand it goes with the territory. You'll get used to it, son.

Don't worry so much about what I or others say here on MM, nobody gives a damn, one way or the other, Most folks fully understand these forums are for entertainment and not much more.

If you can dish it out, you can take it. If you can't I guess you can cone down and punch me in the eye, if that will help. :D

DC
 
Heard Tawney himself talk about it. Seems the oil and gas lobby hired an ad agency to push this green decoy bs.

At some point us outdoorsman need to quit with the R is good D is bad.

Be honest. When has the NRA pushed for keeping public land public?

Seems all the R legislature in Utah is pretty pro selling off public land. You need only look at how much trust land they sell to figure out what happens if the state gets it.

BHA opposes it, and does so effectively, which is why they have become a target. Follow the money back to where the "green decoy" crap comes from.

Ill take any D that is pro public land. We can argue the rest later, but once the lands gone, u don't get it back.

BTW I am very anti fed management, but they are the best of the bad.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Well........ again, based on what I've
>read on Google, based on
>the posts I've read made
>on this forum and other
>forums by folks that have
>claimed they are members, such
>as yourself, and others, And
>based on individuals I know
>personally, I will stand my
>comment where in I said
>I thought ihunt4200 had made
>the correct assumption about Back
>Cointry Hunters & Anglers.
>
>What you think of your organization
>is fine with me, nor
>does it surprise me that
>you would defend it and
>support it with your time
>and resources. It certainly
>does reforce my beliefs about
>the organization.
>
>People judge organizations that I support
>and invest my time and
>resources in too.........by me, and
>other members, so I understand
>it goes with the territory.
> You'll get used to
>it, son.
>
>Don't worry so much about what
>I or others say here
>on MM, nobody gives a
>damn, one way or the
>other, Most folks fully
>understand these forums are for
>entertainment and not much more.
>
>
>If you can dish it out,
>you can take it.
>If you can't I guess
>you can cone down and
>punch me in the eye,
>if that will help. :D
>
>
>DC

Oh, I can take it alright, it would just be nice sometimes if what I had to take had some merit.

By the way, not sure how old you think I am, but I am not your son. And age doesn't give you a pass either.
 
We all know udiots only support organizations that take public tags and put them in a raffle. Sure they dont get to hunt, but they get a sweet expo to go to!

#liveawesome
 
Well........ get used to a lack of merit then. Merit don't live here, expecting any merit here is apparently giving you a belly ache.

I could print you a few trillion megabits of meritless opinions proclaimed as facts.

Looking for a Triple Crown winner in a pen of billy goats shouldn't be so bothersome, son.

I mean that in the most enduring way.

Hey, I'm a jerk.......... so what.

DC
 
>We all know udiots only support
>organizations that take public tags
>and put them in a
>raffle. Sure they dont
>get to hunt, but they
>get a sweet expo to
>go to!
>
>#liveawesome

Wouldnt be a good thread without 2 line larry and some troll vomit.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
And a sweet expo it is- all kinds of bad ass hunting stuff there to see not to mention all the people to visit with and talk to. Hell of a community, hell of an industry. I can't think of better people to be around shooting the #####, drinking some beers and just chilling out. I'm just glad awesome a-holes like you choose to avoid it. You don't belong there, no one wants you there and no one there misses you or wishes you were there. You go do you and let others do them. Welcome to America land of choice!
 
>How come every non-profit top 2-4
>guys make six figures? Is
>it greed or what's the
>deal? Now I know why
>these guys are in Utah
>now- Just like getting a
>raise or a bonus- As
>for Back Country Hunters and
>Anglers. I'm not familiar so
>I google it and get
>websites like green decoys saying
>this: At a Glance
>Environmentalist activism is the name of
>the game at BHA, and
>hunters and anglers are just
>the camouflage. BHA has received
>hundreds of thousands of dollars
>from environmentalist groups, and BHA
>executive director Land Tawney has
>a history of liberal election
>activism.
>
>Background
>Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA) represents
>itself as good-ole-boy outdoorsmen who
>simply want to hunt and
>fish and be left alone.
>But don't be fooled. As
>evidenced by both its sources
>of funding and current leadership,
>BHA is nothing more than
>a big green activist organization
>pushing a radical environmentalist agenda.
>
>
>And there's more a lot more
>but I'm not up to
>the copy and paste. So
>what's the truth??? How
>do you know what to
>be a member of these
>days? Maybe I will just
>stick to playboy

Richard Berman. Your passing on propaganda from DC lawyer/lobbyist employed by energy companies.


The company executives, Mr. Berman said in his speech, must be willing to exploit emotions like fear, greed and anger and turn them against the environmental groups. And major corporations secretly financing such a campaign should not worry about offending the general public because ?you can either win ugly or lose pretty,? he said.

?Think of this as an endless war,? Mr. Berman told the crowd at the June event in Colorado Springs, sponsored by the Western Energy Alliance, a group whose members include Devon Energy, Halliburton and Anadarko Petroleum, which specialize in extracting oil and gas through hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracking. ?And you have to budget for it.?

-Richard Berman, New York Times


I'm sure a DC lobbyist, paid by energy companies to get public land for exploration is REAL concerned about hunting and fishing.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I haven't posted on mm in so long I had to redo my registration.. the worse thing that ever happened to the winter range for the Wyoming range was this organization. Thousands of acres of prime time core sage brush were bushhawged.. I wish they would mind thier own business and keep thier antics and money in Sweetwater co. If we would've had a winter like last winter the lower end of the Wyoming ranges mule deer would be gone. I believe with all my heart that those who donate to these guys should have thier hunting rights revoked. Seems like the more people mess with our winter ranges these worse they become. And this group does it simply because they've got to do something with the money they raise.. I honestly don't believe that in thier heart they give two shits about our mule deer
 
>This could be the most ignorant
>post I've ever read on
>this site.

I would have to agree.

WildernessRambler, what are you talking about.

Guys, we need to discuss principles and what actions a group has taken. I dont know much about these guys or the oil guys in the area. What I do know is rather than calling names, pasting labels, or crying about some guys liberal past....lets debate what they do.

Hoss brings up some good info....anyone want to challenge him, support him, further explore the comment? Or just go on some crazy rant that has nothing to do with his comment?

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Your nuts if you thinuhow that works. Paying the tier people $100k a year show you exactly what they have been doing. Show me the Facts and Data and convince us the?!
 
Muley Fanatics is nothing but smoke n mirrors to tell the right person their bull shot addenda which amount to nothing!!
 

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