Mule Deer Crisis in Western Wyoming

HalfAce

Very Active Member
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I pulled Robb Wiley?s below message off of his Nontypical Outfitters website, so I hope I don't piss him off. But this needs to be shared here as I think what the man has to say is extremely important to all of us who love to hunt Mule deer in Wyoming or some of the other nearby states. It's hard to argue with a guy who very likely spends more time up in Western Wyoming than anybody else. Cliffs notes version: unrestricted resident hunting and long range shooting technology are crippling the western Wyoming Mule deer herd. Yeah, last winter did the deer no favors, but there are so many things going against these deer now days that a rebound seems impossible without extra assistance.

I admire that Robb is sticking his neck out for the betterment of the species while very possibly hurting his own business as well as personal relationships with the other residents of WY. I'll be writing letters to the WY Game and Fish Commissioners. For you guys who wonder what you can do to try and make a positive change for this iconic species, here?s your chance. If you don't, well then wtf are you waiting for??

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Mule Deer Crisis in Western Wyoming
Our western Wyoming mule deer herd is in crisis. The winter of 2016-17, advancements in hunting techniques, the selling of big buck coordinates, and unlimited resident tags have taken their toll on this herd. I believe that it is time to reduce the hunting pressure by 50% or more. If steps are not taken immediately, the greatest Wyoming mule deer herd will go down under our watch. I think that we should err on the side of caution when managing this herd. We have a mule deer crisis; let me explain why I feel this way.

There has been a noticeable decline in quality and buck numbers over the past few years. Anyone who has grown up here, hunted here for decades, or studied this herd on the winter grounds has noticed these declines. This is nothing new to mule deer herds across the west. The downturn in quality mule deer is something many of us have watched play out across the west in many places. Other historically high quality mule deer herds have hit the point of no return. Where I grew up, in southeastern Idaho, much of the world class mule deer hunting I experienced as a child is simply gone. The mule deer crisis exists because nobody has been willing to stand up and be accountable and demand change. Possibly due to selfish interests, either monetarily or in the form of over-the-counter tags. Children of southeastern Idaho have no idea how good the mule deer hunting used to be. It's simply gone. I refuse to sit by and watch another world class herd go down. This is why I have decided to ring the bell and shout from the mountain top, ?This herd needs our help!? Join me in doing all that we can to help preserve this amazing mule deer herd.

I have dedicated an incredible amount of time to watching this herd face many challenges. Environmental, ecological, animal predators, human predators, greed technology and disease has contributed to this mule deer crisis. The numbers and trophy quality of the herd has steadily declined. There used to be over 500,000 mule deer in the state of Wyoming. That number dropped to only 364,000 in 2016. After the winter of 2016-2017 those numbers are certainly even lower.

The ability of the modern hunter to effectively kill game up to and beyond 1000 yards is a monumental game changer for the resource. Let's not debate whether shooting at these extreme distances is right or wrong; the reality remains, the modern hunter is making these shots in the field. These advancements come at a price. Our game can no longer avoid the hunting pressure like in years past. The increased harvest capability is negatively impacting our hunting future in terms of quality and sustainability. This applies to residents, non-residents, DIYers and outfitters combined. There have also been huge advancements in gear, optics, communications technology, Google earth and overall knowledge. We are all responsible for this mule deer crisis.

Another major impact is the unregulated scouting of trophy animals and selling their GPS coordinates. These scouting services are not under a Forest Service permit or Wyoming outfitter?s license. This service adds a huge additional pressure to the finite number of mature trophy bucks in Western Wyoming. The mule deer numbers are shrinking fast!
I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. The hunting that I have experienced and shared with guides and clients is an amazing privilege. I have had the opportunity to chase, and be a part of harvesting, some of the biggest mule deer western Wyoming has ever produced. I have given my blood, sweat, and tears for our clients and the building of this business. Yet I am ready to give it all up, if necessary, to save this magical herd.

All of this is putting an unsustainable amount of pressure on our herd. Due to this very real mule deer crisis, the ever increasing negative impacts on the herd, it is time that we put the mule deer before our personal motivations and interests. It's time we all take a step back and put the resource first.

Mule Deer Crisis in Area 135
Of all the many areas that make up Regions G and H, area 135 is in the worst shape of all. I believe it is imperative to separate area 135 from the rest of the high country units as far as its management. We should make 135 a stand alone unit with limited quota. Historically, hunters that had not filled their tags in other areas have moved to unit 135 as the season there was open later. This hunter shift in the past has crippled this unit. To make matters worse in area 135, the buck to doe ratio appears to be hovering around 10 bucks per 100 does currently. We all know what this means; does are getting bred on second cycles or not at all. Another byproduct of a buck to doe ratio that low is the bucks rut so hard and breed so many does that they end up in dangerously poor body condition going into winter. In addition to this, the winter of 2010-2011 produced a very low fawn survival rate. Unit 135 also has more road access than other units which causes increased mortality due to hunting pressure on the years when we have an early snowfall. That scenario played out again in 2016 when our snowfall came early in the year. It will take years for the herd in this area to rebound from this mule deer crisis. Let's protect this until now before it's too late. Thank God the commission listened to the concerns of a group of outfitters and a conservation group this year and linked the closing dates of all of western Wyoming?s high country units with area 135. This is the first year that all of the units have closed on the same day. Thanks to the WGF commission taking this step, area 135?s deer would be in far worse shape.

I have the utmost respect for the Wyoming Game and Fish and their monumental task of managing Wyoming?s unbelievable wildlife resource. I have attempted to work with the local Game and Fish many times. I also traveled to plead this same concern in front of the Game and Fish commission. Wyoming offers the best hunting in the west, it's the Serengeti of the North American continent. The WGF is trying to do the impossible job of keeping everyone happy. It's time to stop and revert to the original task of managing for the wildlife first. The time is NOW for a change in management strategy. The modern hunter comes to the field with more advantages for the hunt than ever before. The WGF cannot manage by the status quo any longer. Right now, the only management tools they have is shortening the season and cutting non-resident tag numbers. Both of those tools have already been maximized. If we have another bad winter as predicted, there are no options left for the WGF to use and the mule deer crisis will grow. We should not gamble with this tremendous, but delicate resource.

It's time for a new strategy!
There is a law on the books right now that mandates that area tags be split, 80% of the tags to residents and 20% to non-residents for Mule deer and Antelope. The 400 tags that are currently allocated to non-residents is considerably below the number that would be required by law in light of the number of resident hunters that hunt this area. According to the WY Game and Fish, there are about 7000 resident hunters in region G each year. Under the current law, they would be required to issue 1400 non-resident tags. That additional 1000 hunters may very well destroy this unit. In court, the non-residents could demand more tags and would likely win. It would be a disaster to issue more non-resident tags. Our mule deer crisis indicates the herd cannot sustain the current number of hunters, let alone more tags.
Many have claimed that the easy answer to our over harvest is shortening the season. I whole-heartedly disagree and this is why: First, short seasons would create an opening week type of hunting pressure for the entire season. Also, outfitters would be forced to hire more guides and cover more area in a shorter time frame to stay in business. Instead of 4-5 guides we would have 8-9 guides in a camp. Not to mention, all tag holders for the year would be in the field at the same time creating a competition environment which would promote increased harvest. This has played out with the same results over and over again. Many of our neighboring states, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado, have failed at this management strategy.

The Next popular management strategy discussed to alleviate the mule deer crisis is a resident regional license. My first question is, ?What happens if more hunters than we have currently from around the state pick western Wyoming?? We would need a cap on the number of licenses issued in regions G and H. Would this capped number be on a first come, first serve basis or by some other method? The current problem is that there are way too many modern hunters. This herd can not wait for another year or two to start protecting what is left.

Another idea that I have heard and would work, is to continue status quo with tags but change the legal weapon. This idea would require use of an open sights rifle, no scopes. This could actually solve many of our problems and we would put the ?hunt? back in the hunter! The idea does not seem very popular at this time, however. I personally love this idea.

End The Mule Deer Crisis With a Limited Quota
Limited quota is the only strategy that would protect this herd and give the managers the tools to stop the decline. We would also need mandatory harvest reports of bucks killed. That is something that should be done now. In 2016 over 7000 residents hunted region G, with a combined harvest of over 3500 bucks. That is what the Wyoming Game and Fish can account for. The scariest part of this 3500 plus bucks killed, is that this number could be much higher because the Wyoming Game and Fish has no mandatory harvest reporting. These harvest numbers are generated from check stations and harvest surveys that are not mandatory. We all know that many of the bucks killed are not accounted for. There are more interesting statistics for 2016. The entire region G outfitting community took 89 mule deer hunters and harvested 43 bucks. The average for all non residents is below 50%. So of the total 3500 bucks killed non residents were responsible for about 10% of the harvest or 300 bucks. It's very clear that if we are going to save this herd it will be by reducing overall harvest, by reducing the number of resident hunters in the area.
The only strategy that is sustainable long term is a resident and nonresident draw, or a ?Limited Quota System.? In my opinion, we need to reduce harvest by a minimum of 50%, have mandatory harvest reports, keep our seasons at the traditional length (Sept 15th to October 14th) to spread hunters out, keep the 3 point or better regulation in order to save the young bucks, and develop an unlimited management tag for our youth. The youth tag could be for the many, 3-point mature bucks in the herd. These mature 3x3s and 2x3s are competing with the rest of the herd on the winter grounds and need to be harvested. Most of these big 3x3s and 2x3s are dying of old age. Our winter grounds are full of them. These bucks would keep our youth in the field as well as aid in the herd?s winter ground survival. This strategy would require that a resident preference point system be developed for deer and elk.

Many hunters, locals, outfitters and clients I've spoken to about this ask, ?Why are you willing to do this? Why are you putting Mule Deer ahead of your business, Non-Typical Outfitters?? First, I believe that God gave us the responsibility to properly manage this resource and the herd needs our help now. I think we can all agree that this herd is in trouble, we do have a mule deer crisis. Second, I want to be able to pass this magnificent mule deer herd on to my kids and their kids in the future. I want to be able to tell the next generation, win or loose, I was willing to give up even my business, to help this mule deer herd.
I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. The hunting that I have experienced and shared with guides and clients is an amazing privilege. I have had the opportunity to chase, and be a part of harvesting, some of the biggest mule deer western Wyoming has ever produced. I have had many experiences with family, friends and clients that are incomparable. I have given my blood, sweat, and tears for our clients and the building of this business. Yet I am ready to give it all up, if necessary, to save this magical herd. My wife and I could stop hunting mule deer today and be completely satisfied with the memories of the past. We are also committed to fighting for the clientele that we have booked, many of them have become close personal friends. These clients have trusted us and hired us to help them fulfill their Wyoming hunting dreams. We don't take this task lightly, we are fighting on their behalf. I am fighting for opportunities for future hunters, and most importantly, for the herd that has blessed me and my family over the years. We want to put an end to this mule deer crisis.

Arise, for it is your task and we are with you; be strong and do it. Ezra 10:4

Contact Wyoming Game & Fish About This Mule Deer Crisis
If you are interested in being part of the solution for this deer herd, please take the time to write a letter to each of the Wyoming Game and Fish commissioners. Click here for the contact information for the Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioners. This esteemed group of professionals and sportsman will decide the fate of this herd. They will hear your concerns. If you agree with a Limited Quota for residents, mandatory harvest reporting, continuing with the traditional seasons (Sept. 15-Oct. 14), an over-the-counter management youth license and making area 135 a stand alone unit please make that clear in your letter. I believe that these steps are the only solutions that give the wildlife managers the tools that they need to effectively manage this herd in this new modern hunting era.
 
I admire Rob's effort, but we are a long way out from resident limited quota in G&H. Rob, a well known outfitter, who used aircraft a lot in the past for scouting trophy bucks(says he doesn't anymore) and promoted long range shooting with his clients, offers differing views on buck/doe ratios than the G&F.

I am sure he has sincere motives here, but many who hunt the area don't agree with him and they have a voice in this too.
 
Dear Robb,
Please use your plane to scout for big 2x2 and 3x3 bucks for your clients. After all its for the good of the herd.

Also please make all your hunters use open sights.

Sincerely,

1992
 
Sounds like This Guy has Spent Time in NE Utah!

I Doubt Founder will Agree with the One Subject this Guy Mentions!

But He's Right!

And it Ain't JUST happening in Wyoming!

It's Not Just one problem,it's a Combination of Several Things Knocking these Herds Down!

I Never thought I'd See Wyoming Destroy their Deer Herd like TARDville has done but it's Happening!

If Wyoming is at a 10 Bucks per 100 Does Ratio I Feel for them,Even though I Don't agree with the Buck to Doe Ratio BS,Let's Grow some Deer Numbers,Manage the Herd Properly & Have Some Bucks with Decent Genetics still Alive come Rut Time!

Would that be too much to Ask?

Evi-F'N-dentally it is!









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
I don't disagree with some of what he advocates for. However, I question whether he is truly ready to put his business and monetary needs ahead of his love of this deer herd. How many fewer hunters is he taking? He is booked out through 2020. He is already booking hunters out to 2021. He runs a for profit shooting school that will teach you how to make shots out to 1,000 yds. He only stopped aerial scouting following a change in the law and big public outcry against it. He advocates against shorter seasons due to the fact that he would have to put more guides in the field over a larger area. Not that he would have to run fewer paying clients. Doesn't really sound like he would make a monetary sacrifice to me.

I don't know the man at all. I am sure he is genuinely concerned for the mule deer in western Wyoming. I am also positive that making G an LQ region and a reducing hunter numbers would result in little change to how many spots he fills with paying clients. He is a very good outfitter and takes some great bucks. He has the reputation and background to stay booked. I would like to know what he has already given up before I am going to be swayed by Bible verses.
 
I think he's correct that something (a lot of things) needs to change Although some of his recommendations like lengthening the season are probably related to business interests. I too love the idea of making these units open sights or even muzzleloader hunts. I'd rather see & hunt big bucks and come back empty handed rather than shoot 150-160 class bucks from 400+ yards every year.
 
a guy who runs a long range shooting school does not want to talk about long range hunting. a guy who runs a guide service responsible for killing the best bucks wants less competition. a guy who has always pushed the legal envelope is wanting restrictions to make his services more desireable. the hope of mule deer in g and h depends on a guy pimping the same deer. hypocrisy.

open sight rifles and muzzleloaders and archery would be all the units need to be done to protect over harvest.
 
>a guy who runs a long
>range shooting school does not
>want to talk about long
>range hunting. a guy
>who runs a guide service
>responsible for killing the best
>bucks wants less competition.
>a guy who has always
>pushed the legal envelope is
>wanting restrictions to make his
>services more desireable. the
>hope of mule deer in
>g and h depends on
>a guy pimping the same
>deer. hypocrisy.
>

I don't know the guy, but this is exactly what I took from his article. Good summary.


2a0fcsk.gif
 
?Another major impact is the unregulated scouting of trophy animals and selling their GPS coordinates?. Major impact! Get out of here!
I don't sell GPS coordinates (don't use a GPS), but I do share locations of some bucks I see while in the hills, and I'm confident he's talking about my service. Its resulted in 2 trophy bucks being shot in the history of the service. Calling it a ?major problem? isn't truthful.

Not a single mention in that whole rant about his scouting from an airplane having an affect on trophy class animals. The two deer I told a couple guys about makes what I do a ?major problem?, but the numerous huge bucks they've found from planes, surrounded with hunters, and killed as a result of flying around in a plane all summer is left off the list. Interesting.....
Why wouldn't that count as something that affects trophy bucks?

I agree things need to change. Not just in western Wyoming, but everywhere. Success rates need to come down or tags will need to continue being cut to maintain or create good quality. I myself would much rather hunt more often with a lower chance of success than less often with greater chance of success. But the fact is, that view is not shared by the vast majority, and until it is, tag cuts will continue to offset the increasing advantages we have over game.

I think most of us play some role in the whole decline of trophy bucks, and the herds as a whole. It's not just a couple people, or a few devices, it's a little bit of everything.
Mostly everyone other than me though...ha ha ha joking

I'm sure Robb cares about mule deer, just like the rest of us. I just have a problem with the dude pointing out how everyone else is the problem. He wants what he wants and is pushing his agenda.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
OTC for archery for both resident and nonresident. Limited quota for both for the rifle hunt. Problem solved.
 
Our overall selfishness as hunters will be the demise of our herds in the end. Anyway you slice it. Something needs to be done but don't let it affect the way or where I hunt. And by all means do not ever cut tags, ever!
 
I find this to be a shame, that coming from a bit of a polarizing person, that a very valid point gets lost in the points, that appear to be self serving.

I have always thought that it's lunacy for Wyoming to basically, not manage her Deer harvest at all as it applies to residents. This is not sustainable, and is not the right thing by the deer herd, that the state is entrusted to manage. I'm not expert on Western Wyoming, but have certainly seen the potential for giant bucks taken. I think it is irresponsible for the state not to limit numbers of hunters in any region where our deer have the chance to thrive.

I fully support some kind of limited license allocation for residents. If the state would buckle down and manage the herd, it wouldn't take long at all for it to rebound to it's former glory.

As for the rest of the points, I think they're superfluous to the issue of too many hunters= too many bucks killed. Simple math

I would love to hear Founders' assessment of the health of the herd, since he spends quite a bit of time in that country.
 
Meh. Leave G the way it is. If you're a trophy hunter either hunt harder or go somewhere else that makes you happy.

Its all perspective. Guys will tell you it was ruined in the 80s compared to the 70s. The 70s were ruined compared to the 60s. Blah blah blah.


How could you have a bad hunt in country as beautiful as that?

Oh you didnt find a big buck? Waaaaaaa! Boo hoo!
 
I completely agree that they should cut tag numbers in the area and restrict resident hunters.

With that said, I think this is easy for Robb to say. He only has capacity to guide a certain number of hunters. He has a proven track record and will likely be booked up no matter how many tags they reduce. So if he can reduce pressure that doesn't impact his business (i.e. resident hunters), then why wouldn't he?

I agree with the idea, but doubt his motives are pure.
 
Pot calling the kettle black.
I'm sure they wouldn't cut the outfitter quota.
Throw enough crap on the wall some will stick.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]Making Region G LQ will just up the pressure in the other general units of the state. Look what will happen if you just make 135 LQ. The hunters who only hunt 135 will jump to the general units in G. If you make each unit in G LQ where do you think all the hunters not hunting are going to go? They are not going to stay home and there are only a few general units left in the state.

Maybe it's time to make residents put in for regions and put a quota on the amount of residents that can hunt a region. This would solve the jumping from region to region and the debate on a state wide opener. For example, due to Robb being so concerned about getting NR their percentage, make Region G 4000 hunters for residents and change the 80/20 R/NR split to 90/10, giving 400 non-resident tags.

You will never out manage a bad winter, no matter what G&F does. Of course, maybe not killing doe deer would help a little. They destroyed several general areas in the late 90's and early 2000's by killing too many does.
 
In my opinion, the western Wyoming deer herd faces the same challenges as the deer herds everywhere else. There's less winter range, winter range quality isn't what it has been in the past, increased human pressure everywhere, and all the other issues. Those are the things that affect the herd as a whole.

As far as trophy bucks, it all boils down to the fact that we have better equipment for killing them and more time to do it. And that's also the case most everywhere.

In western Wyoming, there's no doubt in my mind that there are getting to be more and more resident hunters who are getting after it hard and investing more time pursuing the top end bucks. And it only makes sense. It's one of the better places to hunt in the state and anyone who lives there can hunt there. Guys want to kill the best buck they can, even those in Wyoming, and they're going to hunt where they have the best chance. And, each year they get after it harder, get better equipment, hunting more days, scouting more, etc. It takes its toll. It does everywhere.

If they want to have more big bucks, they'll have to reduce success rate or tags, just like everywhere else. The only other answer is to increase overall deer numbers, but that is extremely difficult to do. Mother Nature controls most of that.

They're running out of non-resident tags to cut...........

If they can just outlaw my consulting service, stomp my first amendment rights in the ground, man, look at all the big bucks that would be saved. There'd be a monster muley for everyone! I hear it has a "major impact".

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I'm sure Rob is a good guy and wants to help the deer herd. He is pretty accurate on many things. However, I just read my WY outfitters magazine and I'm pretty sure he had an add about his long range shooting course and then he said that long range shooting and technology is hurting the deer herd. This and flying for trophy bucks is hurting the herd a lot.

Cut the number of resident tags.
Have the season start and stop the same time.
as mentioned over the counter archery, limited rifle tags.
This is a start.
 
Less Resident hunters in Regions G&H would result in more trophy mule deer on said mountain, that is a fact. It would also result in less competition for the available trophy bucks in the area.

Are the G&H buck to doe ratios at 10 bucks per 100 does. I don't think so and I think wildlife biologist in an airplane counting the deer have better evidence of buck to doe ratios than NTO.
It is my belief that all of the breedable does are getting bred.

A Wydot worker told me a particular stretch of western Wyoming highway killed approximately 700 deer last year. We need a fence and overpasses in that area.

The winter of 2016-17 was devastating but I think the herd was growing from 2011 until 2016. For the future of the deer herd I'm really hoping the winter that is just starting is a mild one.

[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
>Less Resident hunters in Regions G&H
>would result in more trophy
>mule deer on said mountain,
>that is a fact. It
>would also result in less
>competition for the available trophy
>bucks in the area.
>
> Are the G&H buck to
>doe ratios at 10 bucks
>per 100 does. I don't
>think so and I think
>wildlife biologist in an airplane
>counting the deer have better
>evidence of buck to doe
>ratios than NTO.
>It is my belief that all
>of the breedable does are
>getting bred.
>
>A Wydot worker told me a
>particular stretch of western Wyoming
>highway killed approximately 700 deer
>last year. We need a
>fence and overpasses in that
>area.
>
> The winter of 2016-17 was
>devastating but I think the
>herd was growing from 2011
>until 2016. For the future
>of the deer herd I'm
>really hoping the winter that
>is just starting is a
>mild one.
>
> [font face="verdana" color="green"]
>Jake Swensen


^^^+1
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]Interesting discussion. I agree, deer have seen better days. Mr. Wiley makes several good points, though it's pretty obvious that he means to protect his agenda and business. Understandable. I think we all have our own little agendas, and that's part of the problem, too. It's tough to justify unlimited tags for an extremely finite resource. Something's got to give eventually. I happen to agree with Founder that more opportunities and less chance of success is better than waiting years and years for a chance. I also agree with Mr. Wiley that hunters have become darn efficient killers. Interesting he condemns long range "hunting", but operates a school? I guess we're all allowed to change our ways. My guess is a lot of us will have to.
 
Mother Nature is the great X factor, but something has got to be done with either the uncontrolled/unlimited resident tags or the technology and gear we use or both. Have to start somewhere. Western Wyoming is headed down a slippery slope. It would be interesting to see what G and H would become if we had a run of 4 or 5 mild winters, they cut the resident tags in half, and they put in some more game fences/crossings. The country in G and H is breathtaking, but the trophy mule deer that call those mountains home are a huge piece that makes that country so incredible.
 
All we gotta do is send our $$$$ to the muley fanatic foundation and all will be fixed. Plus theres a banquet to make you feel even better!
 
Fullthrottle
I think you hit all the good stuff that has to happen just add in no airplane scouting period and cut outfitter tags as well as resident and Nonresident tags for a period of time.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Ya I was kind of disappointed in the negative response's I was hearing about MFF. Decided to hold off. Sure would like to donate some $$ and know it was going to good use. Funny how guys on here don't have a clue and respond with crap like, "waa haa haa", "couldn't you find a big buck". That kind of attitude is really helping the cause. Let's all put our blinders on and just ignore the fact that the mature buck population has a lot stacked against them, and just keep doing what we are doing. That seems to be working real good.
 
Its time to knock mother nature off her high horse! Lets feed the doe deer fertility drugs. Get the fawn to doe ratio somewhere around 3 to 1.

Captive breeding programs. Im sure we could get the utah boys to "help" those big bucks put some "genetics" into some tubes.

And how about some heaters on the winter range? If its cold out lets give them a little heat. Im sure Robb could donate some heaters and generators.

Lets team up with facebook and instagram. Everytime you post a hunting pic, shed pic, scouting pic you pay 15 cents. That money will be earmarked for the above programs. Some quick calculations shows the funding would be 35 million the first year...and thats just from the utah boys using social media.





《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
I Knew Founder would notice He was Mentioned!:D:D:D

You Gotta Admit though Founder!

Excluding Your "GPS to GIANTS"!

You've Done Some Damage!:D







She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
all a guy had to do if he wanted to see g and h after four or five easy winters was to hunt it 2o16. mature bucks all over. 2o17 was better than 2oo8. make g and h great again mother nature so the outfitters can stop trying to get the do it yourself guy off the land.

no scopes is the best place to start. try that in one area and watch the bucks grow like alfalfa in june. until mother nature kills them again.
 
I personally think it's funny how the Wyoming outfitters think selling scouting info is such a big deal when they're providing the same service and also holding your hand while you walk to the deer and providing transportation and lodging.
 
This guy is so full of crap just like his cronies from the wyoga. He wants nothing more than to have the place to himself. Robb is a typical wyoming outfitter. Me me me. I wonder why Robb doesn't bring up all the illegal trails he and his guides have created in G. Just saying...
 
>This guy is so full of
>crap just like his cronies
>from the wyoga. He wants
>nothing more than to have
>the place to himself. Robb
>is a typical wyoming outfitter.
>Me me me. I wonder
>why Robb doesn't bring up
>all the illegal trails he
>and his guides have created
>in G. Just saying...

ATV Trails?








She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Rob knows that we need to make some drastic changes to save the WY range Mule Deer herd. It is time to put aside our wants for the needs of the Mule Deer. This problem will not pass or go away with a few good winters. Mother nature plays a big part in things but MAN... is a big part of it to. We could stop hunting completely and Mule Deer numbers would continue to decline. We have been taking more than giving and it has caught up with us. Lets at least try to fix it.
 
>Rob knows that we need to
>make some drastic changes to
>save the WY range Mule
>Deer herd. It is time
>to put aside our wants
>for the needs of the
>Mule Deer. This problem will
>not pass or go away
>with a few good winters.
>Mother nature plays a big
>part in things but MAN...
>is a big part of
>it to. We could stop
>hunting completely and Mule Deer
>numbers would continue to decline.
>We have been taking more
>than giving and it has
>caught up with us. Lets
>at least try to fix
>it.

Hey letmgetbig?

Can You Please start running the Show here in TARDville?








She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Bess, I believe it was the creating of some trails to access via horse/muleback/donkeyback/ brokeback style into some of the hellholes or hard to access because of private or geological roadblocks for ease of access for the softy sea level clients.



Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
 
>Rob knows that we need to
>make some drastic changes to
>save the WY range Mule
>Deer herd. It is time
>to put aside our wants
>for the needs of the
>Mule Deer. This problem will
>not pass or go away
>with a few good winters.
>Mother nature plays a big
>part in things but MAN...
>is a big part of
>it to. We could stop
>hunting completely and Mule Deer
>numbers would continue to decline.
>We have been taking more
>than giving and it has
>caught up with us. Lets
>at least try to fix
>it.

It's getting tougher and tougher to read these posts by all the armchair quarterbacks who somehow think hunting bucks in G & H is decimating the deer herd. Well it is not. Look at every factor that kills a doe deer and you will have your answer. Road kills, disease, predators, lack of good habitat, winter mortality and yes, youth hunters. If you want to "fix" the problem, fix those things instead of blaming resident hunters.

I have watched a deer herd in central Wyoming go from glory days to $hit days, I heard the screams for limited quota, while watching protected herds in the same area, with NO hunting pressure, drop numbers just like the hunted segments. Why can't those of you who think the herd is tanking so bad, admit it is really the number of trophy bucks you are concerned with, because hunters killing bucks is not destroying the herd.

Go ahead now and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have spent hour after hour in meetings with my Mule Deer Initiative group going over all the data, all the things I mentioned above that kill deer and all the discussion with half the group who insisted limited quota hunting was the answer. In the end, the group voted unanimously to keep the general season.

Not every hunter gets to kill a trophy deer. The hunters like Founder, who put in the time and sacrifice , have the best chance. Yeah, I know, there used to be a big buck behind every tree, but that's not the case anymore. It's not the case where I hunt either, it's still general tag, buck numbers have increased and sometimes putting in the time pays off.

My 2017 general license, public land buck, near the biggest city in Wyoming.

29360dsc02338.jpg
 
"Data" that's the term they use in Utah to manage there deer herds, let me tell you it works great. Way better than real numbers and common sense. Keep buying the BS they're feeding you. There's a reason why Utah guys are doing everything they can to hunt other states, especially Wyoming. And that reason is "Data". You young bloods would be smart to start listening to the old timers that have hunted that country for generations. Winters were just as harsh or even worse in the 70's 80's. Development and winter range hasn't gotten that bad In Western Wyoming. Keep it up, we did. Know it's to the point where many have all but lost interest in hunting Utah.
 
>>Rob knows that we need to
>>make some drastic changes to
>>save the WY range Mule
>>Deer herd. It is time
>>to put aside our wants
>>for the needs of the
>>Mule Deer. This problem will
>>not pass or go away
>>with a few good winters.
>>Mother nature plays a big
>>part in things but MAN...
>>is a big part of
>>it to. We could stop
>>hunting completely and Mule Deer
>>numbers would continue to decline.
>>We have been taking more
>>than giving and it has
>>caught up with us. Lets
>>at least try to fix
>>it.
>
>It's getting tougher and tougher to
>read these posts by all
>the armchair quarterbacks who somehow
>think hunting bucks in G
>& H is decimating the
>deer herd. Well it is
>not. Look at every factor
>that kills a doe deer
>and you will have your
>answer. Road kills, disease, predators,
>lack of good habitat, winter
>mortality and yes, youth hunters.
>If you want to "fix"
>the problem, fix those things
>instead of blaming resident hunters.
>
>
>I have watched a deer herd
>in central Wyoming go from
>glory days to $hit days,
>I heard the screams for
>limited quota, while watching protected
>herds in the same area,
>with NO hunting pressure, drop
>numbers just like the hunted
>segments. Why can't those of
>you who think the herd
>is tanking so bad, admit
>it is really the number
>of trophy bucks you are
>concerned with, because hunters killing
>bucks is not destroying the
>herd.
>
>Go ahead now and tell me
>I don't know what I'm
>talking about. I have spent
>hour after hour in meetings
>with my Mule Deer Initiative
>group going over all the
>data, all the things I
>mentioned above that kill deer
>and all the discussion with
>half the group who insisted
> limited quota hunting was
>the answer. In the end,
>the group voted unanimously to
>keep the general season.
>
>Not every hunter gets to kill
>a trophy deer. The hunters
>like Founder, who put in
>the time and sacrifice ,
>have the best chance. Yeah,
>I know, there used to
>be a big buck behind
>every tree, but that's not
>the case anymore. It's not
>the case where I hunt
>either, it's still general tag,
>buck numbers have increased and
>sometimes putting in the time
>pays off.
>
>My 2017 general license, public land
>buck, near the biggest city
>in Wyoming.
>
>
29360dsc02338.jpg


^^^^ This! And a nice buck btw!
 
Personally I like almost everything jm77 brought up. Especially the youth doe tags. I also like the idea of 90/10 and limiting the residents (and I am a resident). Whether that be to regions or LQ or a combo of both depending on unit/region.
Robb is going to get his hunters no matter what, due to his pedigree of success. Maybe that came by less than perfect ethics, I'm not one to judge from here (my keyboard). The only way to limit Robb's hunters is to do like a certain big buck producing providence does and cut all non-resident tags. Which I'm not a fan of doing. But, that would also break the stranglehold the wy guides association has over the commission. Careful what you ask for.....
Do that and still you only have one problem. Too many deer being killed all the way around- predators, vehicles, hunting etc.

On a side note. letmgetbig: you are a troll and it's because of douches like you that this place has significantly less pictures and hunting stories shared. When I joined 15 years ago I could look at ton of great stories and pictures. Now you only get a glimpse of that due to guys like you. You must be some mighty hunter and so accomplished that you have to put someone down by attacking their harvest picture. Doucheface mcTroll

py
 
Long range hunting isn't killing anymore deer. It might be helping those younger bucks get older. Heck the harvest hasn't change that much over the years. Bad weather I think the WGF is doing good.
 
Lol outfitters, including this guy, have been doing almost all the things he complains about for years. Must not have seen many big bucks from the airplane this year.
 
I get it guys, we all want a piece of the pie. We all want to hunt, and no one wants their stomping grounds that are currently an OTC hunt to go to a draw. Residents of each state should get the majority share of the tags. 90/10 split is definitely fine by me, as long as it moves that herd in a positive direction. Hell, ide be fine with zero NR tags for a period of time if that would help.

But something needs to change. It's no secret that F&G departments are slow to react to changes and are usually reactive and not proactive. I guess that kind of a ?business? model worked decades ago, but times have changed. There is a newer and better piece of hunting equipment out on the market every season that simply makes us all more effective at killing. (Just go on the MM classifieds; long range weapons are traded like currency now days) The F&G needs to get with the times and address the problems that advancements in technology bring to the natural un-technical world.

As a few of you have mentioned, there are more issues than just unrestricted resident hunting and long range technology, but it sure looks like those two are the big ticket items. I'de like to see some units/regions go to short range weapons only, or to eliminate the use of a scopes on rifles. And 7,000 resident hunters, that's just plain overkill.

One thing I am a little surprised and disheartened about is that the majority of WY residents on here so vehemently oppose any changes to the Reg. G and H hunts. It's a known fact that the further a person gets from their own home, the less that person care?s for the local ecology. So why are non-residents erring on the side of caution while so many of the WY guys on this site want to continue business as usual and not be proactive?
 
>"Data" that's the term they use
>in Utah to manage there
>deer herds, let me tell
>you it works great. Way
>better than real numbers and
>common sense. Keep buying the
>BS they're feeding you. There's
>a reason why Utah guys
>are doing everything they can
>to hunt other states, especially
>Wyoming. And that reason is
>"Data". You young bloods would
>be smart to start listening
>to the old timers that
>have hunted that country for
>generations. Winters were just as
>harsh or even worse in
>the 70's 80's. Development and
>winter range hasn't gotten that
>bad In Western Wyoming. Keep
>it up, we did. Know
>it's to the point where
>many have all but lost
>interest in hunting Utah.


Data is real numbers, classifications, science and common sense. The young blood part is hilarious, though. I'm not sure what would constitute a "generation", but to give you an idea how many decades I've been hunting deer in Wyoming, here's my first buck in 1971.


56141img014.jpg
 
>I get it guys, we all
>want a piece of the
>pie. We all want to
>hunt, and no one wants
>their stomping grounds that are
>currently an OTC hunt to
>go to a draw. Residents
>of each state should get
>the majority share of the
>tags. 90/10 split is definitely
>fine by me, as long
>as it moves that herd
>in a positive direction. Hell,
>ide be fine with zero
>NR tags for a period
>of time if that would
>help.
>
>But something needs to change. It's
>no secret that F&G departments
>are slow to react to
>changes and are usually reactive
>and not proactive. I guess
>that kind of a ?business?
>model worked decades ago, but
>times have changed. There is
>a newer and better piece
>of hunting equipment out on
>the market every season that
>simply makes us all more
>effective at killing. (Just go
>on the MM classifieds; long
>range weapons are traded like
>currency now days) The F&G
>needs to get with the
>times and address the problems
>that advancements in technology bring
>to the natural un-technical world.
>
>
>As a few of you have
>mentioned, there are more issues
>than just unrestricted resident hunting
>and long range technology, but
>it sure looks like those
>two are the big ticket
>items. I'de like to
>see some units/regions go to
>short range weapons only, or
>to eliminate the use of
>a scopes on rifles. And
>7,000 resident hunters, that's just
>plain overkill.
>
>One thing I am a little
>surprised and disheartened about is
>that the majority of WY
>residents on here so vehemently
>oppose any changes to the
>Reg. G and H hunts.
>It's a known fact that
>the further a person gets
>from their own home, the
>less that person care?s for
>the local ecology. So why
>are non-residents erring on the
>side of caution while so
>many of the WY guys
>on this site want to
>continue business as usual and
>not be proactive?

Because they Blame most of the Damage on TARDS/Non-Residents!








She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
AWW... that's sweet pymulies. Now we are having fun. 15 years ago there were a lot more great stories and photos to share. Kinda my point in all this. jm77 There is just no way having more hunters than Deer will work out very well. And it is not working out. This is not just about G in WY ID has totally ruined Mule Deer in that state. a lot of it is late rut hunts and selling tags for Deer they don't have. WY is doing the same thing. I don't think WY's region G has 7500 Deer right now lucky if there is 5000. There used to be over a Hundred thousand animals in the herd. You are ok with that?.... Well I'm not. Call me all the names you want I wont sit back and let it get any worse.
 
And I really like the 90/10 split idea. 90 residents and 10 non residents would be perfect for a few years. Then raise it to 1500 - 150 after that.
 
>a guy who runs a long
>range shooting school does not
>want to talk about long
>range hunting. a guy
>who runs a guide service
>responsible for killing the best
>bucks wants less competition.
>a guy who has always
>pushed the legal envelope is
>wanting restrictions to make his
>services more desireable. the
>hope of mule deer in
>g and h depends on
>a guy pimping the same
>deer. hypocrisy.
>
>open sight rifles and muzzleloaders and
>archery would be all the
>units need to be done
>to protect over harvest.


+100000000000000000

This rant is self serving at best. He is as much responsible for the things he is complaining about, if not more responsible than 20 residents, and 20 non residents per 1 hunter he takes.

Great summary!!!
 
How about just raising the tag cost for resident hunters that want to hunt H & G to let says $250 per season then they can hunt that Federal land just like a NR guy.
Wait for it. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
It's funny how much of a hypocrite Robb is. If they cut hunter numbers in half he would still have the same amount of clients, plus could charge even more since there should be a better chance for his clients to harvest the bucks they are after.

I also read that there is a buck doe ratio of 31/100. Seems like that is plenty of bucks to breed the does. If you want the herd to grow save more of the does and fawns.

Anytime there is a changed proposed follow the money.

Regards,
 
I know he has a good reputation and spends a lot of time scouting but what he charges to hunt public land is insane. If your going on a hunt with him for the first time lie and tell them your a neurosurgeon so they can expect a big tip and put you on a great deer.
 
Luckily all of you (including me) are too lazy enough to really push our ideas and beliefs.

Leave G and H and all the other letters of the alphabet alone. Its just fine the way it is.


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
The Wyoming Outdoors Mag Robb has a full page add for his long range hunting school. Next page over he's telling us what needs to change??? He even mentions Founders set up.
 
>
>I also read that there is
>a buck doe ratio of
>31/100. Seems like that is
>plenty of bucks to breed
>the does. If you want
>the herd to grow save
>more of the does and
>fawns.
>

If this is accurate, then the deer are doing fine.
 
Very interesting .
There certainly are different views on wildlife issues.

One thing is for sure,
Lots of smart, passionate members among the MM crowd!


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
>Luckily all of you (including me)
>are too lazy enough to
>really push our ideas and
>beliefs.
>
>Leave G and H and all
>the other letters of the
>alphabet alone. Its just
>fine the way it is.
>
>
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

SHHHHHHHHH everyone the Western Wildlife Biologist has spoken. No need to post anymore about this thread!!!!
 
Have you idiots in Wyoming never heard of $FW? In Utah our herds were on the Endangered Species Act list. Then.... A simple man named Don Peay, rode into the DWR and overnight, our herds went from California Condor numbers to the point where we are now, 75/100 mature buck to doe. You guys need to give it some thought. Invite them in. Give them a few million dollars. Put their board members on your wildlife leadership. ACT NOW!!!

I remember when here in Utah our resident worlds greatest Doyle, decided that our elk population was so bad he wasn't going to guide the Gov tag. Of course that was after spending the entire year with a few dozen scouts harassing old Spidey, along with paying $15k for video of him. I love how genuine these pros are. I mean bible verses and all. So since he is talking about all the things that would "save deer",I got one. Change state law banning professional guides on public land. It won't stop his business, he can lease private. But, lets face it, a service that takes guys, the vast majority of whom would never sniff a "trophy" buck, and makes them highly successful, is hurting deer numbers. I mean its all about the crisis right? I bet I can find a bible verse about freeloading off the backs of another. We do charge ranchers a grazing fee. We don't allow oil drillers free range. After all, there is a crisis!




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Have you idiots in Wyoming never
>heard of $FW? In
>Utah our herds were on
>the Endangered Species Act list.
> Then.... A simple man
>named Don Peay, rode into
>the DWR and overnight, our
>herds went from California Condor
>numbers to the point where
>we are now, 75/100 mature
>buck to doe. You
>guys need to give it
>some thought. Invite them
>in. Give them a
>few million dollars. Put
>their board members on your
>wildlife leadership. ACT NOW!!!
>

Hoss, SFW was shown the door and given the boot a long time ago around my area. Last I looked there were only 3 little bitty chapters remaining in Uinta, Sheridan, & Converse counties in Wyoming. Western Wyoming communities gave up on them awhile ago. Nobody appreciated their pushy lobbyists and money driven political agendas. The "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" attitude wore out quickly in my area...

I really appreciate JM77's input. Can someone tell me how LQ seasons are going to produce more does & fawns? Improve habitat? IMO, the LQ buzz is all about creating more bucks and reducing hunter opportunity. LQ will not improve "the herd" as a whole. It wouldn't grow anymore does and fawns. I'm all for providing youth opportunities, but the youth doe opportunity needs to close. If science data shows that there aren't enough bucks to breed all the does available then lets take a look at LQ. Last year, at least going into the winter, buck/doe ratios were somewhere around 35. NTO's drama of throwing out 10 b/d ratio and letmegetbig's drama of 100,000 deer herd...lol, show me when...? Western Wyoming's deer has boomed and busted for centuries, even before the area was homesteaded do to the harsh winters. Hell, if we need to be dramatic to get attention, this year I seen more bucks than does during hunting season...seriously! Is that what the winter range will show...probably not. With the 35 b/d ratio NTO along with other hunters busting their tails up on the mountain were harvesting some GREAT mule deer bucks in 2014, 2015 & 2016.

Those that went to the G&F meetings the last couple years should recall that the deer herds were topping out in western Wyoming. There wasn't much growth from 2014-2016 and the bucks were the only thing being harvested, and there was ideal conditions for growing deer. From the meetings I went to, our wildlife Managers were thinking "the herd" had possibly reached capacity thresholds on the habitat that is available. I assumed this to be mostly winter habitat. It'd be amazing to have 50+ bucks/100 does. BUT... if the habitat cannot support more does and fawns than it did in 2014, 2015, & 2016, why do we need more bucks competing with the does and fawns we have? Those 3 years we had favorable weather & habitat conditions to produce deer.

Directly to the west of my location there are the only wildlife overpasses in the state and multiple deer underpasses. A lot of us "conservatives" first looked at the project and said "holy crap that is costing a lot of money...why?". But after the first year, it was clear the wildlife/vehicle collisions went down considerably. There were some stubborn does that still just had to be in the hwy ROW that were killed, but for the most part, most deer now have found the different underpasses/overpasses over the 15 miles of game fenced hwy. There still are some very stubborn does and fawns that can walk a 1" concrete sill on a double 16' wide cattleguard to get into the hwy ROW. However, the verdict...the addition of the fences, overpasses and underpasses has been a very positive thing for mule deer and antelope. BUT, it is VERY EXPENSIVE to add these wildlife improvements... What gains in deer numbers we seen with the hwy improvements directly around our area where wiped out with the 16/17 winter. Mother nature is the ultimate wildlife manager.

As far as hunter numbers in Region G & H, yes, there are a lot of hunters. I see it first hand. And there are all types. Those that have to shoot a buck every year, those that hunt strictly within earshot of a road, those that hunt the steep and deep and those that won't pull the trigger unless its a GIANT... However, for every 1 of the hunters that just have to get a buck, I would be willing to bet there are 3 that have a set expectation of a western Wyoming deer and enjoy the experience to hunt deer in world renowned areas without filling their tag. I think a LQ season is only going to increase the pressure on tag holders to kill a buck, as the opportunity to hunt will be restricted, rather than allowing the hunters a choice. And there still won't be more does & fawns being produced as there is now.
 
>I really appreciate JM77's input.
>Can someone tell me how
>LQ seasons are going to
>produce more does & fawns?
> Improve habitat? IMO,
>the LQ buzz is all
>about creating more bucks and
>reducing hunter opportunity. LQ will
>not improve "the herd" as
>a whole. It wouldn't grow
>anymore does and fawns.
>I'm all for providing youth
>opportunities, but the youth doe
>opportunity needs to close.
>If science data shows that
>there aren't enough bucks to
>breed all the does available
>then lets take a look
>at LQ. Last year,
>at least going into the
>winter, buck/doe ratios were somewhere
>around 35. NTO's drama
>of throwing out 10 b/d
>ratio and letmegetbig's drama of
>100,000 deer herd...lol, show
>me when...? Western Wyoming's
>deer has boomed and busted
>for centuries, even before the
>area was homesteaded do to
>the harsh winters. Hell, if
>we need to be dramatic
>to get attention, this year
>I seen more bucks than
>does during hunting season...seriously! Is
>that what the winter range
>will show...probably not.
>With the 35 b/d ratio
>NTO along with other hunters
>busting their tails up on
>the mountain were harvesting some
>GREAT mule deer bucks in
>2014, 2015 & 2016.
>
>Those that went to the G&F
>meetings the last couple years
>should recall that the deer
>herds were topping out in
>western Wyoming. There wasn't
>much growth from 2014-2016 and
>the bucks were the only
>thing being harvested, and there
>was ideal conditions for growing
>deer. From the meetings
>I went to, our wildlife
>Managers were thinking "the herd"
>had possibly reached capacity thresholds
>on the habitat that is
>available. I assumed this to
>be mostly winter habitat.
>It'd be amazing to have
>50+ bucks/100 does. BUT...
>if the habitat cannot support
>more does and fawns than
>it did in 2014, 2015,
>& 2016, why do we
>need more bucks competing with
>the does and fawns we
>have? Those 3 years
>we had favorable weather &
>habitat conditions to produce deer.
>
>
>Directly to the west of my
>location there are the only
>wildlife overpasses in the state
>and multiple deer underpasses.
>A lot of us "conservatives"
>first looked at the project
>and said "holy crap that
>is costing a lot of
>money...why?". But after the
>first year, it was clear
>the wildlife/vehicle collisions went down
>considerably. There were some
>stubborn does that still just
>had to be in the
>hwy ROW that were killed,
>but for the most part,
>most deer now have found
>the different underpasses/overpasses over the
>15 miles of game fenced
>hwy. There still are some
>very stubborn does and fawns
>that can walk a 1"
>concrete sill on a double
>16' wide cattleguard to get
>into the hwy ROW.
>However, the verdict...the addition of
>the fences, overpasses and underpasses
>has been a very positive
>thing for mule deer and
>antelope. BUT, it is
>VERY EXPENSIVE to add these
>wildlife improvements... What gains
>in deer numbers we seen
>with the hwy improvements directly
>around our area where wiped
>out with the 16/17 winter.
> Mother nature is the
>ultimate wildlife manager.
>
>As far as hunter numbers in
>Region G & H, yes,
>there are a lot of
>hunters. I see it
>first hand. And there
>are all types. Those
>that have to shoot a
>buck every year, those that
>hunt strictly within earshot of
>a road, those that hunt
>the steep and deep and
>those that won't pull the
>trigger unless its a GIANT...
> However, for every
>1 of the hunters that
>just have to get a
>buck, I would be willing
>to bet there are 3
>that have a set expectation
>of a western Wyoming deer
>and enjoy the experience to
>hunt deer in world renowned
>areas without filling their tag.
>I think a LQ season
>is only going to increase
>the pressure on tag holders
>to kill a buck, as
>the opportunity to hunt will
>be restricted, rather than allowing
>the hunters a choice.
>And there still won't be
>more does & fawns being
>produced as there is now.
>

Excellent write up, we need this speech at the wyg&f commission meeting. I agree 100%! Thank you.


[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
Don't know Robb Wiley nor a single thing about him accept what has been posted in this discussion thread. Based on this discussion, I have nothing but respect and admiration for the man.

I don't care what his business is, what he's done in the past or what he does in the future regarding outfitting, teaching long range shooting skills, hunting mature deer, using aircraft, etc., etc, etc. What's more I don't care if he's the nicest guy in the world or a selfish, greedy, jerk, attempting to save, maintain, or improve his hunting business, because, on the need to act aggressively to save western mule deer, for the purposes of saving public land mule deer hunting, I believe he is 100% right dead center on, in his concerns. He is exactly right in that, if the western States do not act painfully aggressive, and immediately, to "grow" total mule deer populations, in Wyoming and every western State, our public land mule deer hunting days are over.

A few of us raunchy old son's of b!tches have been screaming this, in the media, in public hearings, and on every street corner, since the late 1980's. For nearly 40 years!!!!. We've been told, for forty years we are alarmists, Chicken Littles, elitists, anti-family hunting, anti-hunters, PETA lovers, and worse. At the same time, whether you want to admit it or not, the populations of mule deer have steadily spiraled down, down, down, with a rare year or two of growth, based entirely on a few years of ideal weather conditions, but never a sustained recover.

Here is the harsh reality for Robb Wiley and anyone else that believes it's going to ever get better. GET OVER IT, IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. The time will come, and far sooner than most can imagine, that 99% of the mule deer left to hunt will be on private ranches. It would scare the hell out of you to know what percentage of our mule deer are already limited to private property. That trend will continue and the ratio balance of private lands mule deer numbers vs public land mule deer numbers will excellerate at an ever increasing rate.

Why?

Because the public land hunter will not protect the future of public land mule deer populations. If you think I'm full of sh!t, simply go back and read the comments made in this discussion.

Its not over yet, but it's a few killing winters way. We are at the tipping point. Without a much larger critical mass, base population, public land mule deer are toast. Could it be prevented, hell yes, but the public land hunter is never going to won't allow it.

DC
 
The fact is 2lumpy we'll probably never see deer herds grow significantly. There's just too many people and too much stacked against significant herd growth. So, we have to make the most of what we have. In my opinion though, eliminating hunter opportunity isn't the only option on the table all the time. Western Wyoming has a 3 week season. Trophy quality is beginning to suffer up there in part because of that. I'm sure you want see Robb asking for a shorter season. How long can a buck really hide from a hunter and a guide? 3 weeks? Not often. It's just too long. And that's just a no brainer starting point. There's plenty of options available to maintain opportunity and increase or maintain quality. Quantity is really a totally different subject and should be discussed separately and managed differently than quality.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>>Have you idiots in Wyoming never
>>heard of $FW? In
>>Utah our herds were on
>>the Endangered Species Act list.
>> Then.... A simple man
>>named Don Peay, rode into
>>the DWR and overnight, our
>>herds went from California Condor
>>numbers to the point where
>>we are now, 75/100 mature
>>buck to doe. You
>>guys need to give it
>>some thought. Invite them
>>in. Give them a
>>few million dollars. Put
>>their board members on your
>>wildlife leadership. ACT NOW!!!
>>
>
>Hoss, SFW was shown the door
>and given the boot a
>long time ago around my
>area. Last I looked
>there were only 3 little
>bitty chapters remaining in Uinta,
>Sheridan, & Converse counties in
>Wyoming. Western Wyoming communities gave
>up on them awhile ago.
>Nobody appreciated their pushy lobbyists
>and money driven political agendas.
>The "I'll scratch your back
>if you scratch mine" attitude
>wore out quickly in my
>area...
>
>I really appreciate JM77's input.
>Can someone tell me how
>LQ seasons are going to
>produce more does & fawns?
> Improve habitat? IMO,
>the LQ buzz is all
>about creating more bucks and
>reducing hunter opportunity. LQ will
>not improve "the herd" as
>a whole. It wouldn't grow
>anymore does and fawns.
>I'm all for providing youth
>opportunities, but the youth doe
>opportunity needs to close.
>If science data shows that
>there aren't enough bucks to
>breed all the does available
>then lets take a look
>at LQ. Last year,
>at least going into the
>winter, buck/doe ratios were somewhere
>around 35. NTO's drama
>of throwing out 10 b/d
>ratio and letmegetbig's drama of
>100,000 deer herd...lol, show
>me when...? Western Wyoming's
>deer has boomed and busted
>for centuries, even before the
>area was homesteaded do to
>the harsh winters. Hell, if
>we need to be dramatic
>to get attention, this year
>I seen more bucks than
>does during hunting season...seriously! Is
>that what the winter range
>will show...probably not.
>With the 35 b/d ratio
>NTO along with other hunters
>busting their tails up on
>the mountain were harvesting some
>GREAT mule deer bucks in
>2014, 2015 & 2016.
>
>Those that went to the G&F
>meetings the last couple years
>should recall that the deer
>herds were topping out in
>western Wyoming. There wasn't
>much growth from 2014-2016 and
>the bucks were the only
>thing being harvested, and there
>was ideal conditions for growing
>deer. From the meetings
>I went to, our wildlife
>Managers were thinking "the herd"
>had possibly reached capacity thresholds
>on the habitat that is
>available. I assumed this to
>be mostly winter habitat.
>It'd be amazing to have
>50+ bucks/100 does. BUT...
>if the habitat cannot support
>more does and fawns than
>it did in 2014, 2015,
>& 2016, why do we
>need more bucks competing with
>the does and fawns we
>have? Those 3 years
>we had favorable weather &
>habitat conditions to produce deer.
>
>
>Directly to the west of my
>location there are the only
>wildlife overpasses in the state
>and multiple deer underpasses.
>A lot of us "conservatives"
>first looked at the project
>and said "holy crap that
>is costing a lot of
>money...why?". But after the
>first year, it was clear
>the wildlife/vehicle collisions went down
>considerably. There were some
>stubborn does that still just
>had to be in the
>hwy ROW that were killed,
>but for the most part,
>most deer now have found
>the different underpasses/overpasses over the
>15 miles of game fenced
>hwy. There still are some
>very stubborn does and fawns
>that can walk a 1"
>concrete sill on a double
>16' wide cattleguard to get
>into the hwy ROW.
>However, the verdict...the addition of
>the fences, overpasses and underpasses
>has been a very positive
>thing for mule deer and
>antelope. BUT, it is
>VERY EXPENSIVE to add these
>wildlife improvements... What gains
>in deer numbers we seen
>with the hwy improvements directly
>around our area where wiped
>out with the 16/17 winter.
> Mother nature is the
>ultimate wildlife manager.
>
>As far as hunter numbers in
>Region G & H, yes,
>there are a lot of
>hunters. I see it
>first hand. And there
>are all types. Those
>that have to shoot a
>buck every year, those that
>hunt strictly within earshot of
>a road, those that hunt
>the steep and deep and
>those that won't pull the
>trigger unless its a GIANT...
> However, for every
>1 of the hunters that
>just have to get a
>buck, I would be willing
>to bet there are 3
>that have a set expectation
>of a western Wyoming deer
>and enjoy the experience to
>hunt deer in world renowned
>areas without filling their tag.
>I think a LQ season
>is only going to increase
>the pressure on tag holders
>to kill a buck, as
>the opportunity to hunt will
>be restricted, rather than allowing
>the hunters a choice.
>And there still won't be
>more does & fawns being
>produced as there is now.
>

Yup! Nailed it. So did JM77 and JakeS
《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
For Christ sake.
All western Wyoming needs is Option 2.
Wyoming's game herds will be at all time highs in no time.
Utah's game herds are at an all time high. All you have to do is watch $FW's public land propaganda film to see that.
 
pf, my phone not ringing is you not calling. 435-979-5521 Option1, Option 2 and Option 3 all three, came from the UDWR. But, how would you know, you had no skin in the game. Just another bar hopper, getting a swing in, without the slightest idea what's going on in the room.

Come on son, make that call.

DC
 
Isnt it funny how we have all these utah folks telling us here in wyoming how to manage our herds, or what needs to be done here (archery/muzzy only, no scopes, raise the resident fees, etc). I mean after all Utah is the model every other western state should follow. Maybe you should try and change what needs changed in your own backyard before you move onto someone else's. Mind blowing...
 
So?

Now We're back to Saying State Residents should Have More Pull,want More Power on BLM & Forest Service Ground that can be Used by all Citizens of the U.S. Equally?

This ought to Stirr somebody Up:

For every one Resident Wyoming Tag there should be 49 NON-RES Tags to make it Fair to everybody in the United States!

:D:D:D!!!






She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Not sure what you're referring to other than your long drawn out posts...suck. But of course you're a sfw kool-aide drinker so makes perfect sense. We don't want your style of wildlife management here in wyoming.
 
Doesn't surprise me in the least that your not sure what I mean. If you read those long winded posts you'd have learned I dislike Utah's system way the hell more than you do.

Course that's assuming you can understand anything you read. I wouldn't wish Utah's system on anyone, for sure not Wyoming. It's guys like you who don't have a clue what's going on down hear that help keep it the boar's nest that it is. And it sounds like your determined to do the same damn thing in your own State. All you need to do is look south to see where your headed.

Enjoy the trip!

DC
 
Way more ignorant. Makes you a piss poor judge of intelligence, don't it.

There's a message in that for ya.

DC
 
Not agreeing or disagreeing with any of this crap one way or another, just wanted to make clear Utahs system isn't our system. UDWR doesn't give a damn what we think, they run things one way, their way, not the way most of us would like.
 
Oh yes they do. Make no mistake they's driving the train, but it's nice to have a scape goat.

DC
 
I heard the preliminary results from the recent surveys showed a buck to doe ratio of 34:100 in the sublette winter herd. Overall numbers are down by about 35-40% which is expected after a very harsh winter. All of the does are getting bred.

There may be fewer big bucks out there, but Mr. NTO is one of the largest contributors to that. With the advent of new technology, flying to scout, better access to information, etc., the bucks that get big are getting found and babysat by guides until their client can come up and make the shot, or a public DIY hunter sneaks in and kills it first. It's no mystery there are fewer TOP end bucks. We're skimming the cream off the top of the herd.

Does this mean the herd is in bad shape? It's declining, especially after a bad winter, but these regions are susceptible to winter mortality -- it is the main driver of this population. We need to note that between 2010 and 2016 this area had a string of very favorable winters, and despite more hunters in the field, the herd was growing.

If buck to doe ratios are holding, and the herd is growing during normal and favorable winters, I don't see how cutting a few tags will make a significant difference.

If a new management strategy needs to be put in place LQ should be the last option. WY Game and Fish made a pretty decent adjustment last year with an APR and shortened season in 135. I think they were a very good reaction and we should see how this works before we restrict opportunity as a knee jerk reaction after a 1 in 100 year winter.

WYmoose
 
We need to be more concerned with the Buck to Hunter ratio than the Buck to Doe ratio. We need to talk about real Deer numbers and not percentages. When Deer are being over hunted it starts to show up in the genetics. It is showing up in the genetics. and not for the better. Deer numbers have been going down for decades. So this is not a knee jerk reaction. Deer did not increase from 2014--16 It just seemed so because hunters were killing most everything that looked good on the mountain. We have the guys who are worried about loosing Hunting opportunity and guys who are worried about loosing the Deer. Whats more important to you.
 
I've Never or Will ever Agree with the Buck to Doe Management BS!

We Need Total Number of Deer Management and then if somebody wants to Add the Buck to Doe Management on top of that Fine!

I Can Hear it now in TAEDville!

"We've got a 17 Buck Per 100 Does Ratio,But We've only Got 300 Head of Deer left in the State but BY GAWD at least We've got a Good Buck to Doe Ratio"!











She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Buck to doe ratio is an important indicator in herd health. When deer are over hunted it doesn't show up in the genetics, it shows up in the available bucks. The genetics are still in the herd, they need age to show their genetic potential.

Deer numbers across the west have been going down for decades. There were more hunters and tags available in the 80's than there are today by far! It's a huge issue and is pretty complicated. We have everything from fire and range management changes, predator management has changed, technology increases, winter range encroachment, habitat loss, etc.

The biggest issue currently is fawn recruitment, even during the mild winters over the past 3 years, 40% of the fawns are dead before winter hits. a

Of course the deer are more important that opportunity, but a straight 50% tag reduction and pushing to LQ with a point system isn't where I think we should go right now.




WYmoose
 
>Isnt it funny how we have
>all these utah folks telling
>us here in wyoming how
>to manage our herds, or
>what needs to be done
>here (archery/muzzy only, no scopes,
>raise the resident fees, etc).
>I mean after all Utah
>is the model every other
>western state should follow. Maybe
>you should try and
>change what needs changed in
>your own backyard before you
>move onto someone else's. Mind
>blowing...


For every Utahn trying to change it, theres a bunch more who are happy to come hunt Wyoming just the way it is. Theres a simple solution for the ones trying to change Wyoming because they dont like it, hunt somewhere else.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17
>AT 06:30?PM (MST)

>
>I will be nice elkass.

I'll bet that was a Major Edit Job there gros!:D








She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
I
>don't think WY's region G
>has 7500 Deer right now
>lucky if there is 5000.
>There used to be over
>a Hundred thousand animals in
>the herd.

Can you provide info on the source of these numbers? G&F surveys possibly?

Thanks.
 
I
>don't think WY's region G
>has 7500 Deer right now
>lucky if there is 5000.
>There used to be over
>a Hundred thousand animals in

Are these numbers from WY G&F surveys? If so, please provide a link. I'm interested in reviewing them.

Thanks.
 
Wiley is butthurt cause a couple resident hunters killed big bucks he had scouted. If he want to wage war on resident hunters he is gonna get one!
 
Not interested in the mudslinging going on here and I will keep my opinions brief.

Robb im sure has self interest driving his motivation here. Limit the DIY guys so he can drag some fat bastard with deep pockets up the mountain on a horse to shoot the biggest buck he could find all summer by whatever means possible. I don't doubt his love for the area and its inhabitants but does his call for sacrifice really include him and his business? Not likely.

If him and others want to really limit pressure on the herd then limit entry during season to boot traffic only. No horses or motorized vehicles. I would much rather see this than deer running off to die gut shot by rifles with open sites. If your gonna restrict weapons then make it archery and muzzy only.

Why does the F&G not already have mandatory reporting for the area? Good data should aide in good management I would think? This is a common sense measure.

In the end we should all be on the same side when it comes to this deer herd.It's one of our last public land treasures. They are not your average mule deer and their migratory struggle for life is nothing short of amazing. I drove 1000 miles to spend a few days backpacking the magnificent country and watching it's incredible inhabitants this past summer and I had no tag to inspire me to do so. When mother nature rears her ugly head we should all be willing to sacrifice to help these deer rebound to healthy status. Sacrifice is temporary but gone is forever.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-17 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]I guess I have an screwed up interest in mule deer and the future of mule deer hunting. I'm a 70 year old, a year or three away from never hunting anything, let alone mule deer, so nothing anyone does or doesn't do will change my hunting successes or failures, so my support of guys like Mr. Willey have nothing whatever to do with personal benefit, gain, or otherwise.

Like I said earlier, I've never heard of Robb Wiley, don't know his business, don't know is underlying motivations, don't know if he's butt hurt or gut shot, don't know if he's Santa Claus or the Grinch. He claims he's concerned about the size of the deer herd, he's claims he's concerned about the future hunting opportunities. That's all I know about him.

I could careless if he's a liar, if he's selfish, if he's only concerned about his own pocktbook/income, his own ego, if he's pissed off at somebody or everybody.

You tell me, if he wants to grow more deer, if he wants to protect the future of deer hunting, if he want to have more deer, so more people can hunt, if he want's to invest in the future of deer hunting, WHAT IN HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT, REGARDLESS OF HIS MOTIVATION, REGARDLESS IF HE GET RICHER, REGARDLESS IF HE KILLS MATURE BUCKS, REGARDLESS, REGARDLESS, REGARDLESS, REGARDLESS, REGARDLESS?

Is your desire to hunt deer every year, right now, regardless of your ability to hunt deer well into your future, blinding you to the consequences of loosing a robust, prolific deer herd?

I simple don't get it, be it Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, or Nevada. What kind of mind has to take all they can today, if tomorrow leaves you nothing?

If you think the elitists, the land owners, the rich are cheating you out of your birth-right right now, wait a few years, until the only mule deer left to hunt are on private property, because that's where this species is headed if hunters don't start to do what ever it takes to grow the numbers of these mule deer herds, on public lands back to critical mass numbers. Oh ya, I know.............. you'll blame it on guys like Robb Wiley, whether you're from Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, or Nevada!!!!!

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-17 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]Shorten the season to 5-7 days and eliminate about 50% of the outfitters. Cap the number of hunters that each outfitter can take to about 50% of current numbers as well.

Wonder if that would save any deer?
 
Right on Buzz, what ever it takes! Glad to see a gentleman like yourself is on board.

Thanks for your support, Merry Christmas.

DC
 
Right. The outfitters are all about limiting tags. Lets cut their hunters by the same percentage relative to the tag reduction theyre calling for.
 
Guides and outfitters need to go then I'll entertain cutting fat elsewhere. Of course that isn't going to happen in Jolley Wyoming where the elected wilderness outfitter cronies sleep with the lobbies. Someone's brother in law would have to get a real job if they deflated gobment monopolized economic niche'.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I'm wondering how implementing a preference point system for deer and elk would help with the mule deer crisis?
 
It hasn't worked anywhere else Dwalton so why should we follow the rest of the sheep...we stuck to our guns on the wolf issue and it took a while but I can tip them over and legally any time of the year and don't even have to have a license...Mother Nature takes care of things on her own...it the human race that screws everything up when it wants to be in control like God himself..The outfitters need to find a new line of work in pimpin'
 
I agree with 2lumpy. I don't know Robb.... he might be the most honest and sincere guy ever born and he might be the most self centered selfish and self serving sack of monkey chit ever born.....he is likely somewhere in between. What Robb is or is not is irrelevant. What is relevant to most people that visit this forum is the current state of WY Reg G deer herd. Time spent discussing how to make Reg G better is time well spent. Time spent making disparaging remarks about anyone on a public forum is a waste of time and detrimental to the hunting community.
I agree that it is not likely one single thing but rather a combination of several things that is hurting the deer herd. What I know for sure is that the biggest barrier to solving the problem is selfishness. Most (there are exceptions) people do not want to sacrifice to make it better. They don't want to pay more, they don't want to hunt less, they don't want to cut tags because that would cut revenue, and they don't want anyone taking away their rights......and on top of all that most people just don't like any kind of change.
Weather changes, predator populations change, optics and shooting distances have evolved, the number of guys pursuing a huge buck and ends they will go to to find one has certainly changed over the last 15 years. Non of these changes favor the deer or the ability of the deer to reach his maximum potential. And so here we are. Don?t expect to keep doing the same thing and get a different result.....insanity
What is truly interesting is that over the last 15 years almost the exact opposite is happening in the whitetail world. The desire to kill a trophy buck has created a major shift in hunters making significant investments in growing bigger deer...including habitat improvements and passing younger deer. It's not that whitetail hunters are less selfish but because most of the hunting is on private property the hunter knows if he makes the investment he is the one that has the best chance of benefit.
In the whitetail world a large amount of current internet content is focused on growing bigger deer and less on the tactics for killing one. Mule deer internet content and magazines are primarily stories and strategies about the extreme tactics ....and long shots hunters are using to kill big mule deer. In 20 years it is very possible that most big mule deer bucks will come from private property. A big set of horns is a sacrifice one way or another.... hunters better figure how how they want to make that sacrifice now or all we will be doing in the future is sitting around and reminiscing.... which I think was the gist of Robb?s remarks.
 
I see some people got in their 2 lines.....that was all they could handle.

The guy above that says he "doesnt see how preference points has worked anywhere" and "hold out like we did with the wolves".

The entire UNITED STATES OF AMERICA limits tags. Big game was at almost 0 in the west. The east wasnt doing all that great back around 1910. Game populations rebounded to the hayday in the 60's being the peak. After that stricnine was taken away as a predator control since it was killing eagles and the like. Since then, tag restrictions have served well.

If hunting restrictions dont work then lets start letting everyone hunt anything all the time and see how it goes.

I thought Colorado had a big comeback with their deer?
Utah manages 350k deer with 3,500,000 people living next door. Lets just let Utah residents hunt whatever they want.
Lets just let Arizona residents and the hunters of Phoenix lose on their deer. Can you imagine 7,000,000 people hunting whenever they want.

If restrictions dont work then lets hunt year around. Any time, anywhere, any animal we want.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Same old tired BS they sold Utah. Bucks give birth. Killing bucks kills the herd so reduce buck harvest and hunters even more.

Happened with elk in Utah by stockpiling bulls and slaughtering cows. This will happen with Utah's deer as well. It's how the $hit works. It's called fecundity. It's been a failure everywhere it been tried.

Carry on




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 

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