Question for Wyoming Residents

S

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
2,577
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 05:27PM (MST)[p]How many of you residents would support a limited number of licenses for residents in region g and h? I am a NR, so I feel like I don't have much say. I think if the majority of residents wanted it to be LQ and let their voices be heard, it would be. However, maybe residents want it left alone? Let's hear what you guys think.
 
What some, mainly NR, don't understand is not all residents hunt G/H. It's a very small number considering how many resident deer hunters we have. I know people who deer hunt every year and never once set foot in either area. Its tough country and many residents have no desire to hunt there. So, with that being said how would NR feel if the state went to a 90/10 split for deer/elk?
 
I liked your video. And it did look successful to me. We are going to have to accept and support a LQ in G & H. We are past the point of what we want as Hunters, we need to save the Deer. I don't think some people get how bad this is. This is not just because of last winter, the Deer have been declining for 25 years. And WY is at least 10 years late for a resident LQ in G & H.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 07:37PM (MST)[p]Of course I don't want it to go to 90/10. I wouldn't have got to share an adventure with you! Do you think g and h get too much pressure and limiting residents would make a big difference, or is it good enough? Just wondering if you guys think limiting residents would be worth the increase in quality bucks to the point that you may not get the tag every year. If I was a resident I doubt I would want it to go to limited quota either.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 07:47PM (MST)[p]Shane, I don't want to see it go to LQ, but if that's what it takes I would entertain the idea. With that being said, I believe there are other things the state should try before they change it to LQ. Having the same opening day throughout the state and shorting the season would be a good start. And if the state cut tags and made it LQ then I would want to see the resident/NR spilt to be 90/10 for deer/elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 07:56PM (MST)[p]Nooooooo and I don't even hunt that region. I can't even draw LQ tags. I put in for 12 years for a late season elk tag before I got it but it is what it is . And if it did go to LQ then 90/10 split would be great. In fact for all LQ tags. Hehe
 
i'd be all for a 90 10 split in g and h. that would give the nonresidents twenty five percent more tags. i don't think g and h need less hunters. g and h needs less technology. ban scopes and watch them grow.
 
Please do the 90/10 split more tags for the non residents. Sweet. Cut the res tags to 4,000 and keep the non res at 400. Just right.
 
I am not a fan but if it is switched to LQ then it should also be 90/10.
That would put the numbers around
1500-2000 residents
150-200 nons

py
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-17 AT 11:06PM (MST)[p]Thinking about it more, I think it would be great if they went to primitive weapons such as old school Muzzleloader and archery. Have maybe a couple hundred limited quota rifle tags. That way nobody loses out on hunting it just gets a lot tougher. I think it'd be better for the deer, and the quality of the bucks would be better. I think this would be a good idea for many units across the West.
 
From the 2016 harvest reports (2017 not available yet), there were 6843 tags issued for Region G. 975, or 14% were NR. Reducing NR tags to 10%, or by about 300 tags is unlikely to change anything with the deer population.

As a NR, what I have seen makes me want to hunt G and H. I can't comment on the current status/quality of the herd compared to 10 years ago because I have no info.

Sounds like just a bunch of old geezers sitting around reminiscing about the good ole days when "There was a 200 inch deer behind every sage bush. All you had to do was walk up to 'em and shoot 'em between the eyes with your 22 rimfire" :D :D Just razzing guys, don't take it personal!
 
NO resident tags were issued for region G.

Region G is ALL general for residents.

975 tags issued to NR is also false information. Can you please cite your source for that info? Thanks.

The ONLY way LQ would work for regions G and H would be if the entire western edge of Wyoming( and maybe the entire state) were to go LQ. Thousands of hunters would be displaced and have to go to other already too crowded areas. I am not necessarily opposed to this, but much discussion would be needed. So my answer is...maybe.

Signed;

Old Geezer( that's Old Geezer SIR to you, Joe! :))
 
Put a $250 fee on all residents that want to hunt G&H make it a resident G&H tag, see how many are willing to put the money to hunt on that slice of Federal land.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Im a resident and hunt there every year. I woould love to see them do away with the NR regions and go to choose your unit AND weapon. Do this for NR and residents alike. I hunt with both weapons every year but would gladly put the rifle down and hunt soley archery every year...
 
I'll throw in my perspective as a nonresident.
First of all for the outfitters big high scoring bucks are worth more money to them than average bucks so i see changes being pushed from that side based more on finances and business than herd health or lack of.
Second for a nonresident where it can take 6+ years to draw a tag and hunt the area it's more of a negative result if the quality starts dropping as they have a bit of time and money invested in the hunt.
Third for the resident side who can now hunt the area every year and still go hunt other general regions if they don't find a buck to their standards why would they ever want it to change. It isn't as big of a hit to them if they hunt the area on a down year or two as they can keep going back where as the nonresident is now sitting on the sidelines building points for several years in hopes to hunt again.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-17 AT 04:09PM (MST)[p]
As a Wyoming Resident I do not support limited quota for residents at this time. I will be sending emails to support keeping G&H general for Residents. A lot of yearling bucks will be saved by the new antler point restrictions. Make the highways safer for the deer. (fences and overpasses) Kill more coyotes. Keep improving habitat and hope mother nature is kind to the deer. I do support the 90/10 split for the current limited quota areas and what ever price increase it would take to make up for lost revenue.

[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
All the non ressys that want limited quota already have it!

You dont see wyo residents telling you how to manage utah. So STFU.

The utah way is a sickness. Utards are happy waiting 20 years to draw a tag to shoot a 330 bull or 180 buck. Then they blame UDWR on why they didn't get a 400" bull or 200" buck.

**** that! Once a unit goes LQ it stays! We dont need that.

What we need is a wall to keep utards and their idea of opportunity out of WY.

Trump you out there???

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
>All the non ressys that want
>limited quota already have it!
>
>
>You dont see wyo residents telling
>you how to manage utah.
> So STFU.
>
>The utah way is a sickness.
> Utards are happy waiting
>20 years to draw a
>tag to shoot a 330
>bull or 180 buck.
>Then they blame UDWR on
>why they didn't get a
>400" bull or 200" buck.
>
>
>**** that! Once a unit
>goes LQ it stays!
>We dont need that.
>
>What we need is a wall
>to keep utards and their
>idea of opportunity out of
>WY.
>
>Trump you out there???
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

Hard to argue with much there. Other than who pays for the wall?
 
Charming little fellow.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>>All the non ressys that want
>>limited quota already have it!
>>
>>
>>You dont see wyo residents telling
>>you how to manage utah.
>> So STFU.
>>
>>The utah way is a sickness.
>> Utards are happy waiting
>>20 years to draw a
>>tag to shoot a 330
>>bull or 180 buck.
>>Then they blame UDWR on
>>why they didn't get a
>>400" bull or 200" buck.
>>
>>
>>**** that! Once a unit
>>goes LQ it stays!
>>We dont need that.
>>
>>What we need is a wall
>>to keep utards and their
>>idea of opportunity out of
>>WY.
>>
>>Trump you out there???
>>
>>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>
>Hard to argue with much there.
>Other than who pays for
>the wall?

I'm a utard. And you my friend are 10000% correct. Build that biotch real tall. Go back and research the "crisis" in Utah. Look at how we were fed a pile of chit and how things actually are. That "trophy" hunting mentality will create Utah. Managing deer for "trophy" means you can't have hunters. Don't sell off your heritage to satisfy a small, vocal group. In crisis, there is opportunity. In my state $fw slid into that oppurtunity and now, it seems we are headed towards the Texas model.

Once you let the guides, outfitters, and other professional interests start to sway opinion, you will be left with ONLY guides, outfitters, and interests. Drop on down the canyon and check out N. Utah, that will be your future.

Build the wall(but I like pony races so give me a key). If you see that camel stick his nose under it, shoot it. DO NOT REPEAT UTAH.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17 AT 09:25?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17 AT 09:09?AM (MST)

Yes Sir! Here's my sources.

Per map, Region G is comprised of areas 135, 143-145.
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Regulations/Regulation-PDFs/REGULATIONS_CH6_MAP.pdf

Here's a link to the Harvest Reports:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Hunting/Harvest-Reports/2016-Harvest-Report

If you add the numbers in the Active Licensed Hunters for 135, 143, 144, 145, you'll get the numbers I referenced - Hopefully I did my math right! Ooops. I see an error in my calculation!

If you add all of Reg G, you get 5878 res and 648 non res, killing 2743 and 342 deer. So, NR accounted for 11%.

A screen shot of 143-145 is below, with 143 highlighted.
16157wygtags.jpg



Here's the draw odds report. If you add all 4 reports for NR's for G and H, you get 958 tags.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Hunting/Drawing-Odds/2017-Drawing-Odds


In summary, I was mixing 2016 kills and 2017 tags, along with G & H. I think my reasoning still stands. The NR harvest is not a large % of the tags or deer taken in G and H. Now I'll go back and correct the #'s on the original post so it looks like I was right all along!! :D :D
 
Please note I must have fat fingered my calculator. I'm making corrections below to the #'s and terminology.

>From the 2016 harvest reports (2017
>not available yet), there were
>6843 tags issued for Region
>G. 975, or 14%
>were NR.

From 2016 Harvest Reports:
5868 active resident hunters in G, killing 2743 deer
648 active non-res hunters in G, killing 342 deer

From 2017 Drawing Odds:
958 non-res tags available in Reg G and H combined
 
That wasn't my take on him. LOL
I think the resident tags cost should be alot higher if they want to hunt in those TOP Units, like $250 a season, just think all the money that would flow into DFG budget to help those top units. It part of that PAY to PLAY that now being used by DFG in many States.
Raise the prices until they scream, then back off just a hair.LOL
See how much NR tags have jumped in the last 20 years then compare it to what the cost of a resident tag then and now.

Then remember that alot of these lands that we are talking about aren't State lands, BUT are Federal lands own by all Americans.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>That wasn't my take on him.
>LOL
>I think the resident tags cost
>should be alot higher if
>they want to hunt in
>those TOP Units, like $250
>a season, just think all
>the money that would flow
>into DFG budget to
>help those top units. It
>part of that PAY to
>PLAY that now being used
>by DFG in many States.
>
>Raise the prices until they scream,
>then back off just a
>hair.LOL
>See how much NR tags have
>jumped in the last 20
>years then compare it to
>what the cost of a
>resident tag then and now.
>
>
>Then remember that alot of these
>lands that we are talking
>about aren't State lands, BUT
>are Federal lands own by
>all Americans.
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".
>>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>>the MM green signature club.[font/]

How is region G or H a top unit? Havent you heard? Its ruined!

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-17 AT 05:56PM (MST)[p]

Sure gator, I will pay the 250 all day long. Chump change for a mule deer tag. Are you willing to receive only 10% of the allowed tags? If you worried about your own state maybe you wouldn't have to drive a thousand miles to hunt wyoming. Truth hurts sometimes.

What blows my mind in all of this is how Utah folks what to tell us wyoming folks how to manage mule deer. After all Utah is such a wonderdul model for all the western states.
 
The game and fish did a big attitude survey on exactly this, and overwhelmingly residents were against a limited quota being put in place, and were also against choosing a unit/region.

Also, when citing numbers from the game and fish harvest reports, if you hunted multiple areas you are counted more than once. So those hunters who hunt in say 144, 145, and then go out to hunt in 135 will be counted 3 times. It makes it hard to really identify exactly how many hunters are hunting region G, but it is less than the numbers state.

I see no evidence that the current buck harvest in Region G is substantial enough to justify a limited quota. December ratio surveys (done last week) show that the numbers are down around 40% overall, but buck to doe ratios are holding at previous year levels (around 34:100).

There are a lot of management strategies short of LQ that will still provide opportunity, so if changes are made, let's explore those options first!

WYmoose
 
I think the results of the attitude survey were very predictable. Do residents want their hunting priveledges reduced? With more restrictions? Fewer tags? Of course not.

Related to the harvest report data, you may be correct that hunters could be counted more than once, but it is the best data available.
I would hope the kill numbers are correct though.
For Region G, 2743 killed by residents, 342 killed by NR's.

A couple of questions:
1) Can a resident hunter legally kill more than one buck per year?
2) Are all deer killed required to be checked in?
3) The study mentioned had a buck:doe ratio, any idea of the total deer population in Region G? H?

My assumption is one tag, and it must be checked in, but I've always hunted WY as a NR, so I've never had reason to study the resident requirements for tags and check-in.

I guess I could go to the G&F website...:D
 
I don't believe a resident hunter can have more than one mule deer type 1 per year unless they have a landowner tag. If it's possible it's pretty rare. Deer are not required to be checked in and surveys are not mandatory. Most survey response rates hover around 50%. Game and fish population estimates can be viewed on the job completion reports I believe.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-17 AT 01:40PM (MST)[p]I'm not from UT first, I was South Dakota Born and raised.
I now make a living in that POS state California. So quit insulting UT.LOL

And yes I believe that all Resident and NR should have the same rights to federal lands.

I have heard the same crap all the animals are state owned.
Well then I guess then Wyoming owe us out-of-state hunters alot of Grazing fees for letting their animals graze on our tax paid land. I think your outfitter welfare should be disallowed also in the wilderness areas.

Just think if the Fed's said no more free hunting on all that Federal land without a FEDERAL Hunting License.
You would see a picture in the dictionary of a CASH COW.

I agree $250 is a drop in the bucket for a good tag.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>A couple of questions:
>1) Can a resident hunter legally
>kill more than one buck
>per year?
>2) Are all deer killed required
>to be checked in?


1) Yes, but only one can be a mule deer

2) No, deer are not required to be checked in

Wy G&F use voluntary hunter surveys and the hunter is given multiple opportunities to reply. What I have been told, with the current method used, the survey applied with the model they use is 95+% accurate.
 
If I was a Wyo res and could hunt a unit with 190+ potential every year there is no way I'd be in favor of going to limited tags. On the other-hand, if I knew a unit had potential for 190+ bucks and quality of bucks and experience was poor I would likely be in favor of limited tags.

With that said, I've been all in favor of converting over to all limited elk tags in Colo for years and years. Relatively young bulls in overly crowded conditions just isn't my cup of tea. I hardly ever hunt OTC elk in Colo...it isn't that exciting hunting raghorns with an outside chance of a 300ish bull with an army of hunters. I don't think that is the case in G and H in Wyo so I can understand why Wyo residents aren't in favor of converting to limited deer in G and H. That corner of Wyo is renown for harsh winters and continues to produce whoppers. Hopefully that trend continues!
 
After much thought here is a list of non res hunters that can sit at the table regarding wyoming wildlife management:


















Taylor Swift
 
Not in favor of limited quota tags...that's why I moved here 20 years ago because of over the counter tags....
 
Ok, give the Wyoming residents what they want.....the same ol thing.

Your herds are down about 40% from where they were. Keep up the good work! YA! Change nothing! Great idea.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
I lived in Wyoming from 1992 through 2005. Hunted hard in the Grey's River and Salt River ranges (G & H) with my own horses and a mule. I saw this disaster coming in the 1990's. It's a lot more complicated than unlimited tags. It's multi factorial. The primary culprit being unmitigated and extensive gas drilling on BLM land with pads as dense as one per 40 acres located in the core area of mule deer critical winter range: the Jona gas field south of Pinedale. Add to that real estate development in winter range south of Afton, Wy., unlimited tags for residents, and the expected brutal winter once every 20 - 40 years (2016) and it's negative effect on fawn mortality. Nobody could write a better recipe for disaster when it comes to mule deer in Western Wyoming. While it would help if those regions went to a limited quota draw it is not the sole answer. Those areas are not coming back to the glory days of Wyoming mule deer hunting in the 1970's, 1980's, and early 1990's. If I had a $10 dollar bill for every WGFD employee that stood up in a season settings meeting and said,"We manage the animals not the land" I'd be a rich man! You guys in Wyoming got just what you deserve regarding mule deer hunting thanks to your gas drilling jobs and the Republican idiots you elect to the Wyoming legislature, US House, and Senate. Enjoy!!
 
Yet nonresidents keep applying, it took > 6 points to draw @ %100 last year, probably >7 this year. It must be terrible.
 
AspenAdventure....we did do something last year as far as changing....
Only a 6 day hunt...no youth tags...and 3 point of better buck tag only...and I know alot of locals that didn't even hunt or tag out..
 
I am a non resident for Wyoming but have hunted Regions G and H multiple times and have spent considerable time scouting and hunting these units over the past 15 years. There has for sure been a decline in the quality of deer and the numbers of deer being seen from my experience. This used to be a hunt that I wouldn't want to miss out on. But now after the last few times I have hunted it the quality of the hunt is not the same for sure. So what I am saying is , if WGF does not take some drastic measures to change what the trend is in these two units it will for sure turn out to be an average unit within the next 5-10 years. I have saw this type of mismanagement happen in other states and am saddened to see it happening to these good units as well. Residents of Wyoming need to support a Limited License agenda or they will be hunting average to poor units the rest of there lives. And WGF needs to quit worrying about the $$.
 
>I have a few questions for
>all of you that feel
>as though residents need to
>go to a limited quota
>in both G and H.
>
>
>1. How many of you have
>actually spent any time scouting
>those areas in the summer
>when you can actually get
>a good feel for the
>amount of bucks that are
>in the area?
>
>2. Why would any of you
>take at face value anything
>an outfitter has to say
>without thinking about what his
>agenda truly is?
>
>3. How many bucks would you
>say in a 5 or
>so square mile area is
>a good amount on their
>summer range?
>
>4. Why do you think Old
>Rob wasn't on this same
>soap box say in the
>past years, but now he
>is?
>
>5. Do any of you watch
>founders pod casts about his
>scouting trips in Wyoming?
>Sense I know the answer
>to question 1 for most
>of you would be you
>have spent little to no
>time up there, do you
>believe how man bucks Brian
>says that he sees every
>year? Last year was
>right on par with all
>the rest of the years...
>
>
>Old Rob is bent out of
>shape because he is killing
>less of the big bucks
>for his clients because both
>the non residents and resident
>diy guys are hitting it
>harder then ever before.
>Now he has more competition
>then before, and if he
>cant keep producing like before,
>he will not be able
>to charge the prices on
>his hunts he has in
>the past. It is
>funny to me that both
>of these areas produce some
>of the biggest deer in
>the world every year, along
>with tons of great 170"
>to 190" bucks every year
>and many of you that
>have never even set foot
>in those areas feel the
>need to tell us how
>to fix the problem we
>have! haha no thank
>you I think I like
>my problem just how it
>is, you can keep your
>Henry mountain once in a
>life time hunts and type
>up how great you had
>it once every 30 years
>or so!!
>
>Believe me, if the people that
>actually do hunt these areas
>start to see a problem,
>I would bet we would
>be the first to start
>asking and also demanding change!
>
>
>Not the changes old Rob wants
>though. More like ones
>that would actually help the
>heard. Here are a
>few that I can think
>of off the top of
>my head...
>
>1. Have all the seasons in
>both G and H all
>be the same opening and
>closing dates. For that
>matter I also think 135
>should be managed separate for
>the non residents then the
>rest of G also.
>
>2. Start putting money towards deer
>crossings in the Kemmerer area.
>
>
>3. mandatory harvest reports for all
>areas in the state for
>deer.
>
>4. NO flying PERIOD!
>
>5. Get rid of the wilderness
>law for the outfitters welfare
>checks.
>
>Here are a few examples that
>would not only help the
>deer, but would also make
>the hunting experience more enjoyable
>by spreading people out a
>little bit.
 
>>I have a few questions for
>>all of you that feel
>>as though residents need to
>>go to a limited quota
>>in both G and H.
>>
>>
>>1. How many of you have
>>actually spent any time scouting
>>those areas in the summer
>>when you can actually get
>>a good feel for the
>>amount of bucks that are
>>in the area?
>>
>>2. Why would any of you
>>take at face value anything
>>an outfitter has to say
>>without thinking about what his
>>agenda truly is?
>>
>>3. How many bucks would you
>>say in a 5 or
>>so square mile area is
>>a good amount on their
>>summer range?
>>
>>4. Why do you think Old
>>Rob wasn't on this same
>>soap box say in the
>>past years, but now he
>>is?
>>
>>5. Do any of you watch
>>founders pod casts about his
>>scouting trips in Wyoming?
>>Sense I know the answer
>>to question 1 for most
>>of you would be you
>>have spent little to no
>>time up there, do you
>>believe how man bucks Brian
>>says that he sees every
>>year? Last year was
>>right on par with all
>>the rest of the years...
>>
>>
>>Old Rob is bent out of
>>shape because he is killing
>>less of the big bucks
>>for his clients because both
>>the non residents and resident
>>diy guys are hitting it
>>harder then ever before.
>>Now he has more competition
>>then before, and if he
>>cant keep producing like before,
>>he will not be able
>>to charge the prices on
>>his hunts he has in
>>the past. It is
>>funny to me that both
>>of these areas produce some
>>of the biggest deer in
>>the world every year, along
>>with tons of great 170"
>>to 190" bucks every year
>>and many of you that
>>have never even set foot
>>in those areas feel the
>>need to tell us how
>>to fix the problem we
>>have! haha no thank
>>you I think I like
>>my problem just how it
>>is, you can keep your
>>Henry mountain once in a
>>life time hunts and type
>>up how great you had
>>it once every 30 years
>>or so!!
>>
>>Believe me, if the people that
>>actually do hunt these areas
>>start to see a problem,
>>I would bet we would
>>be the first to start
>>asking and also demanding change!
>>
>>
>>Not the changes old Rob wants
>>though. More like ones
>>that would actually help the
>>heard. Here are a
>>few that I can think
>>of off the top of
>>my head...
>>
>>1. Have all the seasons in
>>both G and H all
>>be the same opening and
>>closing dates. For that
>>matter I also think 135
>>should be managed separate for
>>the non residents then the
>>rest of G also.
>>
>>2. Start putting money towards deer
>>crossings in the Kemmerer area.
>>
>>
>>3. mandatory harvest reports for all
>>areas in the state for
>>deer.
>>
>>4. NO flying PERIOD!
>>
>>5. Get rid of the wilderness
>>law for the outfitters welfare
>>checks.
>>
>>Here are a few examples that
>>would not only help the
>>deer, but would also make
>>the hunting experience more enjoyable
>>by spreading people out a
>>little bit.


Good post Tony
 
Again, you Wyoming residents just keep doing what you are doing. Just get exactly what you want.

I have 5 points. I will draw next year and come up and help you put the nail in the coffin.

Just keep doing what you are doing guys...40% reduction in less than 10 years....NICE WORK!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Aspin no need to snipe. How about you answer some of not all of the questions I have asked above. Then we can debate some facts.

Also you might not be coming our way with those 5 points of yours this year. Unless you are going H of course.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]Wyoming has pretty much always managed for opportunity. It's the reason a lot of us live here. Living here, I know a lot of residents. I don't see too many fork-horns or spikes killed. Mostly mature bucks or unused tags.

The country can be brutal and as much as people like to say every square inch gets scouted and hunted, it isn't so. I didn't see one other hunter on opening day this year. Public land. Killed a mature deer. Not a record book animal, but mature. Old. Winding down his life. He was never going to be a record book buck.

As I've said dozens of times before, if you can't enjoy hunting here, don't. If you can't be happy hunting where the odds for a 200" buck don't suit you, go elsewhere. Its not what Wyoming prioritizes. The locals don't support yearly hunting so they can go kill the first buck they an see. They do it for the experience.

If the overall herd health is in jeopardy, increasing the buck to do ratio isn't going to help. It will create more competition on the winter range for does and fawns.
 
Tony had a few questions so I posted my answer below.

>1. How many of you have
>actually spent any time scouting
>those areas in the summer
>when you can actually get
>a good feel for the
>amount of bucks that are
>in the area?

Tony, I have spent months in the backcountry of Wyoming and have hunted it twice. I have also spent a considerable amount of time on the winter range.

>2. Why would any of you
>take at face value anything
>an outfitter has to say
>without thinking about what his
>agenda truly is?

Who says we did....we dont need to take the outfitters word for it. Mule deer numbers are down in Wyoming by 40%. If they are managing for "opportunity" then they suck at it.

>3. How many bucks would you
>say in a 5 or
>so square mile area is
>a good amount on their
>summer range?

This varies widely and is fairly irrelevent. What is the carrying capacity of the land? If we can have more deer shouldnt we? If we have had more deer...shouldnt we try to maintain them? If there are less now shouldnt we reduce tags?

>4. Why do you think Old
>Rob wasn't on this same
>soap box say in the
>past years, but now he
>is?

Ummmmm, because deer numbers are down 40% from just 6 years ago....seems really obvious Tony.

>5. Do any of you watch
>founders pod casts about his
>scouting trips in Wyoming?
>Sense I know the answer
>to question 1 for most
>of you would be you
>have spent little to no
>time up there, do you
>believe how man bucks Brian
>says that he sees every
>year? Last year was
>right on par with all
>the rest of the years...

Yup, every single one of them. He said he only saw a few less this year. But, he hiked how far? He saw how many bucks? And all he could come up with after 30 days of scouting was a 190 buck? I have seen better bucks come out of there with less effort. Brian is a FRIGGIN STUD. If there was a better buck he would have found it and shot it. Thanks for bringing up the point that the big ones werent there this year and Brian proved it on his podcast. :)

Then, Tony, you said it best, non resident (400 guys) and resident (7000 guys) are hitting it harder.....so let me get this straight....

You said
a. they are shooting more deer and are better at it

but we dont have less deer?

b. You said Rob cant take as big of bucks and cant find them....ok, doesnt this prove that it there are less bucks?

c. then Brian hikes his tail off and scouts it better than anyone I have ever even heard of....see's less bucks, takes a 4 point buck......and you think things are great?

d. then the state says deer numbers are down 40%

e. then Brian goes out on the Crawford range and down in the winter range and finds dead animals all over the place..... but the deer numbers are the same?

f. then there is this local guy who says on Youtube he wont even hunt G because the deer are so bad....he says he saw less bucks on the winter range...says less bucks on the summer range....but Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa things are good.


COME ON! What would it take to convince you the deer are in trouble?

7000 residents hunting G is more people than EXIST IN MOST TOWNS IN WYOMING!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]

>f. then there is this
>local guy who says on
>Youtube he wont even hunt
>G because the deer are
>so bad....he says he saw
>less bucks on the winter
>range...says less bucks on the
>summer range....but Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa things are
>good.
>
>

This guy you mentioned above lacks the credibility to be relevant in this conversation.


>COME ON! What would it
>take to convince you the
>deer are in trouble?
>
>7000 residents hunting G is more
>people than EXIST IN MOST
>TOWNS IN WYOMING!

Yes, deer numbers are down( they are most everywhere to some degree), but current management isn't reducing the buck/doe ratio to a point that requires drastic action in G & H. What does that mean? 1) Most likely reduction in overall size & score of the bucks observed by guys like Tony and Founder was due to the winter. 2) Current management does not require limited quota for residents because post season buck/doe ratio is more than adequate. 3) Current management using flexible season dates, season length and APR is valid.


The key to larger deer herds, which means more bucks, is reducing female mortality. Those that blame hunting antlered deer as the cause of depressed deer populations don't read the facts.
 
Keep it as it is, mule deer are struggling all over, look at gunnison in Colorado and people are waiting a long time to hunt those units!!! Just cause ya hunt Region G&H doesn't mean ya have to pull the trigger. I encourage youth to harvest a deer if they get a chance so they don't get discouraged but those of us that have killed many mule deer from does to forkys, to young bucks to old bucks and to trophy sized animals there is nothing that says we have to kill every year. Personally I'd rather go to east side of state and shoot a Whitey if I can't find a Muley I want to harvest. Better eating anyway but nothing compares to a Muley rack as the popularity shows!!
 
Tony had a few questions so I posted my answer below.


Thanks for the response!


>1. How many of you have
>actually spent any time scouting
>those areas in the summer
>when you can actually get
>a good feel for the
>amount of bucks that are
>in the area?

Tony, I have spent months in the backcountry of Wyoming and have hunted it twice. I have also spent a considerable amount of time on the winter range.

Glad to hear that you have spent so much time in the Wyoming back country. I will assume that most if not all of that time has been spent in G or H looking for deer, as that is what we are talking about here. The only reason I bring that up is if a person is spending all that time in say the Big Horns (which are beautiful I might add) it really doesn't add much to this topic. So I will again assume you were hunting either G or H? How was it? I am sure you must have enjoyed it the first time to come back the second right?

>2. Why would any of you
>take at face value anything
>an outfitter has to say
>without thinking about what his
>agenda truly is?

Who says we did....we dont need to take the outfitters word for it. Mule deer numbers are down in Wyoming by 40%. If they are managing for "opportunity" then they suck at it.

The Question I asked here was more for the original topic I posted this in as this was a copy and past from there. On that post the start of it was Robb's view of the deer heard. Thus where that question of mine came from. I would like to ask you though where you are getting that mule numbers in G and H are down 40%? And down from which year? Without a doubt last years winter hit the fawns very hard, and even the others, but everything I had seen until that point showed the deer heard on a steady incline for about the last 6 or so years.


>3. How many bucks would you
>say in a 5 or
>so square mile area is
>a good amount on their
>summer range?

This varies widely and is fairly irrelevent. What is the carrying capacity of the land? If we can have more deer shouldnt we? If we have had more deer...shouldnt we try to maintain them? If there are less now shouldnt we reduce tags?

You are right it does vary depending on the type of land we are talking about. I thought we were talking high country G and H habitat, which for the most part is all very similar. All very good to great deer habitat that is why great deer have lived there historically of course. So that being said, I do not find that question irrelevant at all. After all isn't that what we all are talking about here? No I do not feel as though a reduction of tags is necessary to help the heard rebuild after last winter, as the steady rise of population as stated above prior to last winter would seam to prove.


>4. Why do you think Old
>Rob wasn't on this same
>soap box say in the
>past years, but now he
>is?

Ummmmm, because deer numbers are down 40% from just 6 years ago....seems really obvious Tony.

Again please show me where you are getting this info.


>5. Do any of you watch
>founders pod casts about his
>scouting trips in Wyoming?
>Sense I know the answer
>to question 1 for most
>of you would be you
>have spent little to no
>time up there, do you
>believe how man bucks Brian
>says that he sees every
>year? Last year was
>right on par with all
>the rest of the years...

Yup, every single one of them. He said he only saw a few less this year. But, he hiked how far? He saw how many bucks? And all he could come up with after 30 days of scouting was a 190 buck? I have seen better bucks come out of there with less effort. Brian is a FRIGGIN STUD. If there was a better buck he would have found it and shot it. Thanks for bringing up the point that the big ones werent there this year and Brian proved it on his podcast.

He hiked a ton like always. I don't follow his podcasts nearly as close as it sounds like you do, but I do enjoy watching them. He does a great job on them and more than anything, I am always curious to see how many of the same deer we are looking at as happened in the past. I did go back and look at his total for the last 2 years and this is what he said. "26 days and 505 bucks last year, 25 days and 590 bucks in 2016" I really can't comment on the fact that all he found was 1 190" buck after 26 days, because as you said many bigger came out of there last year as well with much less effort.... Good luck opposed to bad luck? I don't know... Haha again no argument from me on him being a "stud". ha the guy hunted with a freeking broken neck! I agree with you! Again can't speak to if there was a bigger buck within eyesight of him within his 26 days. I would bet dollars to donuts there was though, and if you asked him he would probably tell you the same. As far as him shooting it too. Well again I guess you could speculate that he would have, but as even he says... Finding one and killing it are to different stories. He does not always get his target buck as you full well know if you follow his podcasts, and as I stated above it isn't for lack of trying! (broken neck...) Brian "proving" the big ones up there this year is nothing but a false statement on your part as stated above there were a lot of nice to HUGE deer taken again this year!

Then, Tony, you said it best, non resident (400 guys) and resident (7000 guys) are hitting it harder.....so let me get this straight....

Yes they are

You said
a. they are shooting more deer and are better at it

but we dont have less deer?

I don't believe I ever said anyone was shooting more deer. What I did refer to is the DYI hunter is getting better and shooting more BIG deer.

b. You said Rob cant take as big of bucks and cant find them....ok, doesnt this prove that it there are less bucks?


Again I believe you are putting words in my mouth so to speak. I never said he isn't finding them, just that now he has a harder time killing them as the DYI guys are killing some of "his" bucks.

c. then Brian hikes his tail off and scouts it better than anyone I have ever even heard of....see's less bucks, takes a 4 point buck......and you think things are great?

Man I really don't know what to tell you about how great you think Brian is at scouting and also hunting. I am not saying he is bad at it but it seems you are really hung up there. I typically put on between 70 and 100 miles per year in the preseason. He probably does more I guess. I know what I see and have killed. I will just leave it at that. Along with others I personally know.

d. then the state says deer numbers are down 40%
refer to above.

e. then Brian goes out on the Crawford range and down in the winter range and finds dead animals all over the place..... but the deer numbers are the same?
I agree last years winter was horrible!

f. then there is this local guy who says on Youtube he wont even hunt G because the deer are so bad....he says he saw less bucks on the winter range...says less bucks on the summer range....but Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa things are good.

I don't know who that guy was but I did watch the video you posted... 3 things jumped out at me.
1. He makes a very nice video.
2. Man him saying he was going to pass on I believe it was a 190". Congrats to him, the only time I have done that is when I had others that were bigger found.
3. I wish he would have bought a tag last year with the intent to not use it as I and others I know did. Seems that is a little better way of helping out.

COME ON! What would it take to convince you the deer are in trouble?

They are in some trouble after last years winter. I agree and hopefully this year mother nature is more kind to them. I have laid out some things that I believe would help much more. Did you see those? Did you see on another thread that Brian also would not call for G and H to be LQ? He must also not care about the mule deer in your thinking?

7000 residents hunting G is more people than EXIST IN MOST TOWNS IN WYOMING!

yup you are right and I love it!!!! haha that's why we don't need to manage like Co. UT. or ID!!!!! Thank god!
 
Tony, thank you for the response. Based on your response it is evident you have not read the Mule Deer Management Plan of 2011 or 2015. These Biologists have estimated the population now and what it can be. In 2013 the population, as you will read, was around 350k, down from 600k, statewide. After last years winter the estimate I am hearing now is just above 300k which is technically a reduction of 50%...not 40%. So it is likely worse than I had thought. Below is also a link to a management plan with population estimates.

The solution is easy. Ted Turner has some great ranches around the west. I am hunting one in Montana fall 2018. He has achieved huge populations of animals AND is performing timber harvest, hunting, and oil and gas development on the same land. Oil and gas are not the issue....just the easy target. Oil and gas do not affect herd populations on Teds land.

The population in Wyoming is down. With only 400 non residents hunting in region G it is BLATENTLY OBVIOUS that Utards are not even close to being the issue. When herds are impacted, according to the reports below, 25% or more, during a harsh winter, how do you control resident tags without a draw? So if your population drops how to you control harvest with unlimited local tags?

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule Deer Initiative/Mule-Deer-Initiative.pdf

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con.../Wyoming Range/WRMD_PLANFINALDRAFT0000945.pdf

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...oming Range/WRMD_HERDHISTORYSTATUS0000947.pdf

Tony, I know you like to go off gut feel and say you have seen a lot of bucks or it "felt" like there were a lot of deer or whatever. But, your reality is delusional at best. The biologists may be off as much as 10%. Which means you, and other locals, have no one to blame but yourselves for the horrible management of your animals. Declines of 50% are as bad as Utah. Congratulations!!

I will hunt Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Colorado next year. I have not decided whether to not put in for Wyoming this next year. Good luck up there....you are going to need it if you keep tags at these levels.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
You know the world is focked when guys are recommending the Ted Turner wildlife management plans.

Smh


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
hey....AWESOME

You just jealous that he has 400 inch bulls?

Maybe you just jealous he knows how to manage his property and yours isnt so good?

Whats your beef with Ted Turner properties?

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 03:58PM (MST)[p]I wont even go the whole Ted Turner thing but I would like to respond to your post above.

First off I indeed have read through those reports. Now saying that I must admit a lot of it has been skim reading.

I thought this conversation was based on the Reg G and H heard. (Wyoming range)

If you and I are talking about different things, maybe there lies some of the disconnect.

I would not ever try to speak of most of the rest of the states deer hunting, as I really haven't hunted deer east of the continental divide.

So just back to G and H.

Here are some numbers provided by the game and fish. I tend to believe these because as you say, they are in line with "what my gut tells me and I think I see"

Mule deer numbers in Wyo range post hunt.
These are estimates as they are pulled off of a bar graph.

2006 26,000
2007 37,500
2008 30,000
2009 29,500
2010 37,000
2011 29,000
2012 32,000
2013 36,000
2014 33,000
2015 38,500

There was normal to severe winter kill observed in the winters of: 05-06, 07-08, and 10-11

Sense 2006 management strategies have focused on killing primarily antlered deer to promote heard growth that was brought up by a survey done of WESTERN WYOMING RESIDENTS that concluded we wanted the heard to grow although it was basically at its objective.

In 2006 4747 hunters indicated that they hunted this heard. Residents were 77% to 23% Non Res.

In 2015 the estimated total of hunters that hunted this heard was 6588. Residents were 89% to Non res 11%

Harvest numbers in this area have followed very closely to the ups and downs of the total numbers that are stated above.

Now what really stands out to me...

Here are the numbers of the hunters that are either very satisfied to satisfied in the area per 80 hunters.

They broke this down in separate areas within Reg G. I have stated before I think 135 needs to be managed as a stand alone but that's another topic. This survey started after the last real bad winter we had in 10-11...

area 135
2011 33
2012 51
2013 53
2014 61
2015 63

area 144 (North hi country)
2011 44
2012 60
2013 65
2014 68
2015 70
What is important to remember here is these numbers are per 80 hunters not per 100! Seems most hunters have the same gut feeling that I have.

So here are some things that jump out at me while viewing this.
1. The deer heard going into this last winter were at or at least near recent historic numbers.

2. This was achieved while hunting pressure was on a steady increase by residents.

3. I would tend to think that residents must be at least to some degree self regulating pretty well.

4. Hunter satisfaction is very hi

Now of course this last winter is going to take its toll as the bad ones have in the past. But it seems to me the model that is set in place has done a GREAT job thus far accounting for that.

The time may come if we keep seeing more hunters in those areas something different might need to be done, but that time is not now.

Further more there are many different small things that can be done as I have laid out in the past before the drastic change of LQ.

I would like to keep our "problem" that so many seem to think we have just the way it is
2011
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 04:55PM (MST)[p]Edit. Thought this was adventure writer.


Ted turner management. Haha

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
I have not seen that posted yet.

The projected harvest was 1,100

The projected population decrease of the heard is 23,000. Which will put us right back to about 2006 numbers.
 
Tony, and Awesome.

THE SECOND LINK IN MY POST IS EXCLUSIVELY A DOCUMENT FOR THE

WYOMING RANGE

MULE DEER

Got it?

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Why are there so many more animals on private land?

Less wolves? No

Less oil and gas? No

Less hunting? Yup

I love hunting private land. I don't need the guide. Last private land I hunted I released the guide of his duties by contract and hunted the property without him. Did great. I have horses, hunt the backcountry of the Uintas, Wasatch Front, Rubies, Eagles Nest, Wyoming Range, Gallatin, Pruess Mtns, and more.

Ted Turner is totally relevant to a talk about deer herd management. But you fellas have no idea what he is doing on his land so let's talk about mule deer in a fantastic unit.....pick one.... what do you see unique about it? Fewer hunters?

Awesome, I have never hunted unit 44 or whatever you are talking about. I have never written up a story for ya either. I don't share much of my hunting with you guys. The ones I do help are in Private Message. You have no friggin clue what you are talking about. I checked your past and it looks like you are 16.5 years old. When you grow a pair let us know, please....Mr self-proclaimed "Awesome"... what kind of 10-year-old names himself "Awesome" LOL

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LOLOL

Hey Mr "Awesome"

You thought I wrote this post and that I sounded like a kid....

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...z=show_thread&om=27236&forum=DCForumID6&omm=0

Did you notice it is written by a guy with a different name?

AWESOME job mr "awesome"!! LOL You bone head....how can we trust your opinion when you cant READ!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Mic drop? Hahaha yeah my 4 year old says that.

See you have all the answers. I bet your guides just love you.

Have fun on your guided elk hunt hahahahahaha. Spoiler Alert: they save the 400 inch bulls for the high paying clients...

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
Awesomeless....you got anything to say about mule deer?

managment?

Or just Awesomeless BS?

So far you attack my character, my hunts, my story (that ended up not being my story...you idiot), ted turner, and everything in between.

I went out found links to actual management documents about mule deer in the Wyoming Range then you say they are not relevant because they don't have anything to do with mule deer....you idiot...the document is called MULE DEER IN THE WYOMING RANGE....LEARN TO READ OR GET OUT OF HERE. SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

You have any critique of current management of mule deer?

Go off again with your BS and character attacks....did you teach Hillary how to spout BS and just continue with character attacks in order to avoid substance and difficult questions?

Crap, just realized this post exceeds your two-word patience limit. Must be tough having ADHD.

FOCUS BOY! FOCUS!



"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Credibility? That's good jm77. Where in Wyoming do you live? Casper? And I am guessing tkenez is in Rock Springs. Guess what I look at out my window every day. The heart of region G. I commute to Jackson for work everyday in a bumper to bumper line of traffic. That a Deer has no chance to get across the road in. Deer will never come back from what we lose on the road alone. I know what there use to be in Deer numbers. Deer are in trouble. I want to invite jm77 and tkenez on a little field trip of region G and I will show you what there is not. Credibility? I don't think anyone knows these Deer better than I.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 07:39AM (MST)[p]nope I live in GR but from RS.

Man I would have never guessed that many people commute from I am guessing star valley, to Jackson every day. Actually that is the first time I had ever heard of a Wyoming resident even talk of bumper to bumper traffic in my life with the exception of this last years eclipse... Which I will add I witnessed at 10,000 feet while looking at deer and elk. You might even have been able to see me out your window.

You bring up a great point about road kill. I believe it is a huge problem with the deer there and more projects like the ones outside of Pinedale should be looked into.
Here is an idea I have been thinking of for sometime now. I would love to see a $10 fee tacked onto anyone's License that will be hunting deer in the Wyoming range. This money would be earmarked for just such projects. It would be something like the elk management stamp we currently have.

Letmgetbig, when you say you know what there used to be in numbers what time frame are you speaking of? Do you dispute the numbers that I have posted above?

I would take you up on your offer of the field trip if you are indeed sincere about that. I am usually up there no less than 4 and as many as 7 times from August till September so it would be no problem for me to set aside a day or 2 for the field trip, unless of course this is Rob Wiley. I just don't think I would enjoy that trip very much.
This post is ment to be sincere and not sarcastic in any way.

Well maybe except the part about you being Rob. I put that in there not to raz you at all but more for old Rob... He is the only one I have ever heard say he knows that heard better than anyone...


PS. I have often times thought about moving to where you live. It would just be a little to much of a commute for me back and forth to work, and man the prices up there...
Although one more thing that has made me think hard about it is Eddie sure does have a good thing going up there with the wrestling team! And not to mention I figure I could almost double the amount of time on those peaks and ridges looking at Mule deer. Who knows maybe someday....
 
>Awesomeless....you got anything to say about
>mule deer?
>
>managment?
>
>Or just Awesomeless BS?
>
>So far you attack my character,
>my hunts, my story (that
>ended up not being my
>story...you idiot), ted turner, and
>everything in between.
>
>I went out found links to
>actual management documents about mule
>deer in the Wyoming Range
>then you say they are
>not relevant because they don't
>have anything to do with
>mule deer....you idiot...the document is
>called MULE DEER IN THE
>WYOMING RANGE....LEARN TO READ OR
>GET OUT OF HERE.
> SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
>
>You have any critique of current
>management of mule deer?
>
>Go off again with your BS
>and character attacks....did you teach
>Hillary how to spout BS
>and just continue with character
>attacks in order to avoid
>substance and difficult questions?
>
>Crap, just realized this post exceeds
>your two-word patience limit.
>Must be tough having ADHD.
>
>
>FOCUS BOY! FOCUS!
>
>
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

I hope you dont talk to your guide like that. He will kick you out of the sleeping bag.

Aspen when you sober up maybe we can have a discussion. We both know the chance of that isnt happening anytime soon.

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
Letmgetbig, thank you for reminding me about the silly comment made about the guys credibility that did the video.

a. the guy is from Star Valley and watches the deer everyday.
b. it sounds like he spends more time in the back country than biologists or even Founder.
c. he says he has been there his entire life.
d. he hunts every fall for mule deer
e. he videos deer and recognizes deer from multiple years, not even biologists do this
f. he recognizes patterns in feeding and distribution and age class that most people dont bring up or realize

I could go on. However, if this guy doesnt have credibility then who does. He knows more than the fresh out of college biologist. He knows more and has been around more and has seen more than the seasoned biologist. So, Tony, if not this guy, then who do you recommend?



"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 07:53AM (MST)[p]Do some searching. Utah had these same arguments. It was pushed by the pros and a new "sportsman" group, $fw. We got sold that if we capped tags statewide, our deer would improve. It didn't

Then, if we had LE units it would improve deer hunting and give trophy hunters areas. Oppurtunitues to hunt big deer. Still guys drawing points after 20 years.

What did happen.

Hunters in Utah lost about 100,000 people that voted. Meaning it went from a political powerhouse to an afterthought

N. Utah became a CWMU.

Outfitters/guides expanded both their bottom line, and political clout.

$fw went from "voice of sportsman", to their members occupying the WB(Utah's governing board for wildlife)

The deer are in about the same place.

There is a crisis in Wyoming. In crisis their is opportunity, I believe the push by WYOGA for increased elk tags for paying customers shows you who is looking for some opportunity.

The guides now wanting LQ, for residents shows who is seeking opportunity.

Don't follow the Utah model. The only ones who lost in it, were the resident deer hunters. If you guys go LQ, you sacrifice other units, those hunters just to another unit. Then, it will lead to statewide LQ.

All the while the "pros" never miss a beat, and in fact expand their power, as less passionate resident hunters tire of the continual fight, and walk away.

LOOK TO THE SOUTH my friends. Its your future if their isn't a resident, non professional tidal wave vs. the special interests.

Hell, call their bluff. Push for a complete closure to deer hunting those units for 3 years. See how concerned the "pros" are, and what their concern is.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I agree, look to the south. Utah has 3,000,000 ... thats three million people. And we are still able to get a tag most years for some animal. We have over the counter elk tags, some general deer units take 0 points to draw. I drew a unit last year that took 0 points to draw and is next to a valley of 1,000,000 people. I can litterally be there in 30 minutes from my parents home. My hunting buds and I passed on many bucks, missed many bucks, and my boy took his first buck. One of my relatives took a 360 bull up American Fork Canyon next to millions of people.

Wyoming as a few people....like 5 or 6....na like 600k. Their population of deer is dropping fast. In Utah we are able to hunt because we have been able to manage the hunts. Yes $FW is BS and they have muddied the waters and I would like them gone. BUT...BUT! We hunters, in a state filling quick with liberal dems that hate hunting, with millions of people, with billions of dollars floating through the economy, still have great bucks to hunt just outside our back door because we adopted a system that helps the biologists regulate the amount of deer taken.

If we still had 200,000 hunters going at it we would be so much worse off. Look at the Henry Mountains, Book Cliffs, Oak Creek, San Juan, Paunsaugant, Monroe, Filmore, Beaver, Zion, Pine Mountain, West Desert...etc. We have record book animals coming out of those units every year. And we have general tags over the counter and amazing tags we can go after if we want to wait. I get premium tags and over the counter tags.

Ya it takes 20 points to draw. I have 21 points for elk. BUT! I hunted elk with my friends over the counter last year. We saw 17 bulls and put down two 6 point bulls. ON AN OVER THE COUNTER HUNT. Get off the road. Go for a walk, see hundreds and hundreds of good animals. IN UTAH!

LOOK TO THE SOUTH MY FRIENDS AND SEE HOW YOU DO IT WITH THREE MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STATE AND HALF A MILLION HUNTERS BEGGING FOR TAGS. WELCOME TO UTAH!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
> I can litterally be
>there in 30 minutes from
>my parents home.
>>


That really cool! I kinda figured you lived in your moms basement. Ma! The meatloaf!


I love how utards always talk about the Henry Mountains. They use it as an example of wildlife management. They hope to draw it once in their life.

In WY we have our own henry mts and its called the WY range and we can hunt it every year. And that's not going to change. So end of discussion.


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
I find it interesting to read all of the different opinions on here. I am from Utah and have spent my whole life hunting all over Utah on different Units for all different species. I am 41 years old and have been putting in for points and tags from the very beginning of the systems. I have only drew out on one LE tag. It was and Elk tag 12 years ago. Still No LE Deer tag , Still No OIL Tag, and with the way point creep is cruising faster than I can gain bonus points I hope I can get a LE deer tag before I retire. In the past 30 years of hunting Utah General I have had very few seasons of success on the hunt. Now I am a hunter that judges success by the amount of Animals I see and by the size of the Buck. So about 15 years ago Me and my Brother decided to start hunting out of state, Wyoming , Nevada , Colorado and have had so many more successful hunts, Especially in Colorado and Wyoming, Specifically Region G And H. But the last few times we have hunted these units the Quality of the hunt has become more like a Utah General. I know one thing for certain because I have lived it. If Wyoming does not limit the tags and the hunters on these units they will not survive! We live in a different age of hunting that we could talk about for hours. Simply put, Winters, predators , roads and many other things are going to kill the deer that we cannot control. The days of hunting the same unit every year are over if you don't Want your State to become UTAH GENERAL.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]Who do I recommend for what?

Man you sure do get attached to people easily...

So who do you side with now?
Founder (who it seemed you were very attached to) that said he felt as though it should NOT be LQ for residets...
or
LETM that seems to have a different view then Brian?

If you are asking me who I recommend give me my opinion I will stick with ME.

If the question is who should do the work of the Biologist's I will stick with them.


Just for your info there are more people then you must think that do the things you list above, but maybe their opinion don't line up with yours so they don't count.

If your question is who do I recommend for a field trip, that answer is also above...

I accepted the invite and am waiting for a response. I truly do hope it is a yes lets go. I would love to hear his view on things and also have him show me why he thinks that way.
 
HAHA Hoss I did just that last year! I did call their bluff.

I called for a complete shutdown of Both G and H if is was going to be as bad as some were saying after the winter we just came out of...

All I got was Crazed eyes looks. Not even responses.
 
>I agree, look to the south.
> Utah has 3,000,000 ...
>thats three million people.
> And we are still
>able to get a tag
>most years for some animal.
> We have over the
>counter elk tags, some general
>deer units take 0 points
>to draw. I
>drew a unit last year
>that took 0 points to
>draw and is next to
>a valley of 1,000,000 people.
> I can litterally be
>there in 30 minutes from
>my parents home. My
>hunting buds and I passed
>on many bucks, missed many
>bucks, and my boy took
>his first buck. One
>of my relatives took a
>360 bull up American Fork
>Canyon next to millions of
>people.
>
>Wyoming as a few people....like 5
>or 6....na like 600k.
> Their population of deer
>is dropping fast. In
>Utah we are able to
>hunt because we have been
>able to manage the hunts.
> Yes $FW is BS
>and they have muddied the
>waters and I would like
>them gone. BUT...BUT!
> We hunters, in
>a state filling quick with
>liberal dems that hate hunting,
>with millions of people, with
>billions of dollars floating through
>the economy, still have great
>bucks to hunt just outside
>our back door because we
>adopted a system that helps
>the biologists regulate the amount
>of deer taken.
>
>If we still had 200,000 hunters
>going at it we would
>be so much worse off.
> Look at the Henry
>Mountains, Book Cliffs, Oak Creek,
>San Juan, Paunsaugant, Monroe, Filmore,
>Beaver, Zion, Pine Mountain, West
>Desert...etc. We have
>record book animals coming out
>of those units every year.
> And we have general
>tags over the counter and
>amazing tags we can go
>after if we want to
>wait. I get premium tags
>and over the counter tags.
>
>
>Ya it takes 20 points to
>draw. I have 21
>points for elk. BUT!
> I hunted elk with
>my friends over the counter
>last year. We
>saw 17 bulls and put
>down two 6 point bulls.
> ON AN OVER THE
>COUNTER HUNT. Get off
>the road. Go for
>a walk, see hundreds and
>hundreds of good animals.
> IN UTAH!
>
>LOOK TO THE SOUTH MY FRIENDS
>AND SEE HOW YOU DO
>IT WITH THREE MILLION PEOPLE
>IN THE STATE AND HALF
>A MILLION HUNTERS BEGGING FOR
>TAGS. WELCOME TO
>UTAH!
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

Aspen you seem to have quite the distain for liberal Democrats... We have found something we agree on!

I hope you don't run into Hanoi Jane on your hunt this year.
 
Awesomeless said:

"That really cool! I kinda figured you lived in your moms basement. Ma! The meatloaf!


I love how utards always talk about the Henry Mountains. They use it as an example of wildlife management. They hope to draw it once in their life.

In WY we have our own henry mts and its called the WY range and we can hunt it every year. And that's not going to change. So end of discussion."
__________________________________________

LOL, Mr Awesome, I live in Southern Utah, my horses are in Lehi. I am a CEO of a company. Kids like you clean my pool. Not braggin, you brought it up kiddo.

We talk about the Henrys and I also mentioned about 10 other units. Then you classify G as the Henrys....ummm no. Not even close kiddo. I dont put in for the Henrys. But thanks for askn' :)

Not end of discussion. You have already proven you cant read and that you are 16 years old with wet undies. Lets get this straight.....

Your deer population is down 40%
Your deer population is down 40%
oh... your deer population is down 40%

So what are you going to do? Utah kills Wyoming in the fact that we have the opportunities we do AND WE HAVE 3 MILLION PEOPLE. We know how to manage it. It is not perfect but it is tough to satisfy so many people and still have units where you can hunt every year, you can take a 400" bull, you can take moose, goats, and you can go on a yearly elk hunt.....BUT UTAH DOES IT.

Good luck up there boys...

Your deer population is down 40%





"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Letmgetbig

Credibility comes with honesty, not where you live. Please don't tell me you know more about deer hunting and management than I do. You don't have a clue of my experience with mule deer. I have read many of your posts, seen several of your videos. You sure seem to care about BIG mule deer bucks. But lets not kid ourselves, you make statements that are way out there.

You claim when your father took you hunting, there were half a dozen 40" deer to hunt? When you took your son hunting and someone shot the buck you were after, you then proceeded to pass on a 200" deer??? There are other things you say that aren't accurate and I would be glad to discuss this with you anytime, but I seriously doubt you would do that. If you want to "talk the talk" and tell us all how we should hunt, how we should manage deer, and what is the proper buck to shoot, you need to honest with us and honest with yourself.

I don't see that happening. But I do appreciate that you seem to care about deer, just don't push your beliefs like everyone else is beneath you.

Jeff

By the way, what is the proper Henry's Mountain buck to shoot?
 
There are more than a few deer taken out of G and H every year that exceed 230"! So as far as quality compared to the Henrys can you please share where I can see these bucks. I have seen over the years the ones posted one here, but I must be missing the best of the best ones.
 
So if you can't find deer in other parts of Wyoming You just pack up and head to G or H. Heck yea this deal has alot to do with the whole state deer herds.
H&G are getting over hunted period and who is putting the most pressure on those 2 units. Residents and Outfitters or the NR hunters.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Popeye was only over 40" wide 1 year.
Morty was never over 40" wide.
Goliath was never over 40" wide.

These are three of the best deer documented back in the day on the Wyoming range winter grounds.

I am not going to say they were the best or someone somewhere doesn't have better but it sure would be cool to see that footage if you have it.
 
>Awesomeless said:
>
>"That really cool! I kinda figured
>you lived in your moms
>basement. Ma! The meatloaf!
>
>
>I love how utards always talk
>about the Henry Mountains. They
>use it as an example
>of wildlife management. They hope
>to draw it once in
>their life.
>
>In WY we have our own
>henry mts and its called
>the WY range and we
>can hunt it every year.
>And that's not going to
>change. So end of discussion."
>
>__________________________________________
>
>LOL, Mr Awesome, I live in
>Southern Utah, my horses are
>in Lehi. I am
>a CEO of a company.
> Kids like you clean
>my pool. Not braggin,
>you brought it up kiddo.
>
>
>We talk about the Henrys and
>I also mentioned about 10
>other units. Then
>you classify G as the
>Henrys....ummm no. Not
>even close kiddo. I
>dont put in for the
>Henrys. But thanks for
>askn' :)
>
>Not end of discussion. You
>have already proven you cant
>read and that you are
>16 years old with wet
>undies. Lets get
>this straight.....
>
>Your deer population is down 40%
>
>Your deer population is down 40%
>
>oh... your deer population is down
>40%
>
>So what are you going to
>do? Utah kills Wyoming
>in the fact that we
>have the opportunities we do
>AND WE HAVE 3 MILLION
>PEOPLE. We know how
>to manage it. It
>is not perfect but it
>is tough to satisfy so
>many people and still have
>units where you can hunt
>every year, you can take
>a 400" bull, you can
>take moose, goats, and you
>can go on a yearly
>elk hunt.....BUT UTAH DOES IT.
>
>
>Good luck up there boys...
>
>Your deer population is down 40%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

Did u forget that inconvient fact that the Henry's WERE CLOSED TO HUNTING?


OR. Colorado has a bigger population and we all know how shotty Colorado deer is.

I actually hunt open bull, n slope. 8:100 bull/cow.

Like the previous guy I have one LE tag(elk) in my entire hunting career, I'm 43.

The point of what I said is 100% true. Utah got sold out. At a true time of crisis in this state, the pros slipped in. And since that day, they have done nothing but gain ground. The resident, average guy, has lost at every turn.

The WYOGA may not be $fw, but they look to be following the blueprint.

Keep the average dude fighting for scraps, they wont notice who's at the table.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I love all the armchair biologists that spend very little time in Wyoming, yet think they know it all
I have one simple question for all the FKAs.

Why was the Deer herd of G and H on the rebound and growing from the winter of 2011 until last years big winter? How can that be with unlimited General residents?
 
>
> Why was the
>Deer herd of G and
>H on the rebound and
>growing from the winter of
>2011 until last years big
>winter? How can that
>be with unlimited General residents?
>

According to Aspen "Mr CEO" its because they were on private land those years. Duh! His solution is less tags! That will solve everything!

Wyoming residents dont start threads on other states units and how they should manage them. So leave our state alone!

The best part is we get a couple good winters and the hunting is going to even better. Once those non ressy tags are cut it doesnt seem like them bring them back. :)






《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
What if no one had the foresight to save our National forests and National parks? Can you imagine a world without that. Did you know someone had to fight to save and protect them? There were people who were taking and taking until someone stood up and said enough. These places need to be saved for future generations. I sure am glad they did. Now we need to save some Deer for our National forests. (Look at the run way in the middle of Greys River) That is what would have happened to our forests. And it is what we are doing to the Deer. Now I feel it is time to fight for the Deer and I am going to. The Deer are never going to come back like they once where. But we need to stop this madness. We are Hunting these Deer like there is an endless supply... There is not an endless supply. I am sorry you think I am not being honest. I cant do anything about that. You have no clue about me either. If it doesn't matter were we live then, Non residents who live closer to G than you have a right to say. I don't see how my wanting to cut the Deer some slack makes me way out there. Good day,
 
So letm taking me on that field trip was not a offer I take it?.

I too am trying to protect my hunting heritage for my boys as you are. We just see things differently.

My family's hunting goes back about 60 years in G and H as is sounds like yours go way back also. I just want my boys to have the same opportunity that I have had.
 
First let me address Ms Awesomeless.

You fail to mention one source for your info. You fail to even try to have an opinion based on fact. You simply attack my profession. You brought up my profession. When I correct you and tell you what it actually is you go off on that. You are a troll... an internet troll and nothing else. If you would like to buy a franchise location let me know. www.runwayfashionexchange.com . Click on "own a location" and I will look over your AWESOME info. You wont be approved. I am up to 17 locations and going to have 20 by the end of the year. AND ONE OF MY NEXT LOCATIONS IS GOING IN WYOMING!! Ha! So, ya, CEO, you shouldnt have asked........dont believe me

email me at [email protected] and we can talk further..... or if you like try [email protected] .... let them know how AWESOME you are and I will make sure you get a special Christmas email back.

Less tags works Awesomeless.....it worked in Colorado, works in Colorado, works on private land, I dont see a lack of mule deer in the National Parks.... whats different? Oh ya, HUNTING! It works in New Mexico, Arizona, IT EVEN WORKS IN THE LIMITED ENTRY UNITS ALREADY EXISTING IN WYOMING! You get more and more people every year in Wyoming. So, how many residents is too many? How many tags are too many?

Tony and Awesomeless Mistress.... answer this question so we can have a reasonable debate. HOW MANY HUNTERS CAN THE WYOMING RANGE SUPPORT?

Awesomeless Concubine then says Wyoming Residents dont chime in on other threads....now she is just being stupid. How many of you call us Utards and then brag about your state? Telling us all the things we have done wrong.

Mrs. Awesomeless. I am going to take my corporate earnings....and the SWEEEEET tax cut I just got from Trump...and spend it in your state. When I get there I will hunt on your AWESOME land. I will eat your AWESOME food. Then I will go to my AWESOME cabin and hang for a bit. Then I will take off to Southern Utah and sit in my hot tub for a nice winter while you freeze. LOL. I am sure you will tell me how much you love living in a freezer. Great! No one else does...thats why they dont live there. But, we visit when its a bit warmer. I will shoot your deer and enjoy the land as much as I want.... Oh wait, I own my own biz... that means I can go whenever and however much I like.

Enjoy cleaning my plate after I get done.

As for Tony, you sir are a respectable guy. I appreciate your banter and debate. Your deer herds are in the tank. You have a General Utah Deer hunt in Wyoming now. If you want it back you will need to do something. If not, I will hunt the private land in K or F. Either way I will get my buck. If you want your son...and my son...to enjoy G the way is was...or should be...then you will need to do something because it is already NOT the way it was or the way it should be...so how do you get it back?

HOW MANY TAGS WOULD BE TOO MANY FOR REGION G?


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Aspen with all do respect I will reframe from answering anymore of your questions or commenting on any of your posts on this matter.

Why you might ask. Because you have not afforded me the same courtesy thorough out this thread. You did answer my original questions and as I have responded to your side of the debate every sense you have avoided anything I have asked of you.

I do however appreciate you actually answering the first set of questions as you were the only person to step up and do that.
 
>First let me address Ms Awesomeless.
>
>
>You fail to mention one source
>for your info. You
>fail to even try to
>have an opinion based on
>fact. You simply attack
>my profession. You brought
>up my profession. When
>I correct you and tell
>you what it actually is
>you go off on that.
> You are a troll...
>an internet troll and nothing
>else. If you
>would like to buy a
>franchise location let me know.
> www.runwayfashionexchange.com .
>Click on "own a location"
>and I will look over
>your AWESOME info.
>You wont be approved.
>I am up to 17
>locations and going to have
>20 by the end of
>the year. AND ONE
>OF MY NEXT LOCATIONS IS
>GOING IN WYOMING!! Ha!
> So, ya, CEO, you
>shouldnt have asked........dont believe me
>
>
>email me at [email protected] and we
>can talk further..... or
>if you like try [email protected]
> .... let them
>know how AWESOME you are
>and I will make sure
>you get a special Christmas
>email back.
>
>Less tags works Awesomeless.....it worked in
>Colorado, works in Colorado, works
>on private land, I dont
>see a lack of mule
>deer in the National Parks....
>whats different? Oh ya, HUNTING!
> It works in New
>Mexico, Arizona, IT EVEN WORKS
>IN THE LIMITED ENTRY UNITS
>ALREADY EXISTING IN WYOMING! You
>get more and more people
>every year in Wyoming.
> So, how many residents
>is too many?
>How many tags are too
>many?
>
>Tony and Awesomeless Mistress.... answer this
>question so we can have
>a reasonable debate.
>HOW MANY HUNTERS CAN THE
>WYOMING RANGE SUPPORT?
>
>Awesomeless Concubine then says Wyoming Residents
>dont chime in on other
>threads....now she is just being
>stupid. How many
>of you call us Utards
>and then brag about your
>state? Telling us all
>the things we have done
>wrong.
>
>Mrs. Awesomeless. I am
>going to take my corporate
>earnings....and the SWEEEEET tax cut
>I just got from Trump...and
>spend it in your state.
> When I get there
>I will hunt on your
>AWESOME land. I will
>eat your AWESOME food.
>Then I will go to
>my AWESOME cabin and hang
>for a bit.
>Then I will take off
>to Southern Utah and sit
>in my hot tub for
>a nice winter while you
>freeze. LOL. I
>am sure you will tell
>me how much you love
>living in a freezer.
>Great! No one else
>does...thats why they dont live
>there. But, we
>visit when its a bit
>warmer. I will shoot
>your deer and enjoy the
>land as much as I
>want.... Oh wait, I own
>my own biz... that means
>I can go whenever and
>however much I like.
>
>Enjoy cleaning my plate after I
>get done.
>
>As for Tony, you sir are
>a respectable guy. I
>appreciate your banter and debate.
> Your deer herds are
>in the tank. You
>have a General Utah Deer
>hunt in Wyoming now.
>If you want it back
>you will need to do
>something. If not, I
>will hunt the private land
>in K or F.
>Either way I will get
>my buck. If you
>want your son...and my son...to
>enjoy G the way is
>was...or should be...then you will
>need to do something because
>it is already NOT the
>way it was or the
>way it should be...so how
>do you get it back?
>
>
>HOW MANY TAGS WOULD BE TOO
>MANY FOR REGION G?
>
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

Dude, you have a ridiculous "AWESOME" hang up.
 
Lord Business,
We are all proud of you! And CEO? Damn Son!

Lets just hope you're better at managing people than mule deer.

I see store cuts in your future if you cant get the anger under control.

Ill send you some emails soon. Sign you up for some stuff too.

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
Aspen said: " Your deer herds are in the tank. You have a General Utah Deer hunt in Wyoming now. If you want it back you will need to do something. If not, I will hunt the private land in K or F. Either way I will get my buck. If you want your son...and my son...to enjoy G the way is was...or should be...then you will need to do something because it is already NOT the way it was or the way it should be...so how do you get it back?"

Can you please provide your source of information that Wyoming is now a utah general deer hunt? Fact is you are just spewing nonsense.
Anyone that hunts both on a regular basis knows that your comment is far from true. Even after the hard winter, Wyoming is still better than any general unit in Utah. And it is better than a lot of the LE units utah has to offer.

Can you answer my question? Why was the Deer herd of G and H on the rebound and growing after the bad winter of 2011 with unlimited WY residents hunting? How?

Fact is Wyoming will never be what it once was. Those still living in the past are disappointed with what is still some of the next Mule Deer Hunting. Not saying something doesn't need to be done.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-17 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]Growing deer population in an area with a healthy buck to doe ratio (like G and H have) will always be about decreasing doe mortality and increasing fawn recruitment. Going limited quota would not accomplish either of these things, so if your real desire is to save the deer herd, why in the world are you fighting so hard for limited quota?

The answer is cause you are really just sad you can't find the big bucks you used to and limited quota would mean more big deer.

Buck to doe ratios don't tell us much, but they do tell us that with a healthy buck to doe ratio there are plenty of bucks to go around and all the does get bred. If you are accomplishing this without limiting how many bucks residents are killing, then how is limiting them going to suddenly help? Limiting resident hunters will only accomplish 3 things:

1. Displace A LOT of hunters to other parts of the state that can't support increased pressure.
2. Increase the amount of bucks on the winter range competing for feed with pregnant does
3. And finally it will increase the amount of big bucks, but at what cost???

Limited quota will give you bigger bucks, but it doesn't always help the deer herd, especially if the buck to doe ratio is already healthy.

Decreasing doe mortality and increasing fawn recruitment will ALWAYS give you more deer, which results in more bucks, which results in more BIG bucks. The whole deer herd grows instead of just the percentage of big bucks.

So if you REALLY want to "save the deer herd" start pushing for measures that are going to save your does and fawns! And stop disguising your push for limited quota as concern for the deer herd, because it's not. Or at the very least its a very ill informed way of trying to save the deer herd.
 
I'm 9 miles from AI. There are more big bucks out there per acre than anywhere. There is 2 tags and it was closed 30 years.

Henry's were closed.

So sure. Less hunters =more big bucks. UNLESS winter wipes them out. You can't stockpile deer. That's such a foolish concept.

If your buck to doe is 45%. Every extra 100 does you add you add 45% more bucks. Simple math. Last winter didn't care how many hunters there were, it killed deer. Those units could have been closed to deer hunting, it wouldn't have changed the percentage of deer killed via snow.

As was pointed out, those hunters aren't retiring, they just hit another unit, increasing pressure there. No one expands a business by having less products and fewer customers.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Lets cut to the chase....

WHAT IS THE CARRYING CAPACITY OF THE WYOMING HERD. OR in lay mans terms... what is the max mule deer population?

Also, WHAT IS THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF HUNTERS THAT SHOULD BE ON THE WYOMING RANGE?

Without these numbers we can not have a meaningful conversation. We may be talking about the same numbers. You may think it is higher...I may think it is higher than you.....

So how many deer...how many hunters.

If you have no opinion on these two numbers then you have no idea if there are enough deer or if there are too many hunters.

That is a fact.


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 

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