Sheep show auctions

Better check your "ALL GOES BACK TO CONSERVATION" statement. Some of these tags have a 5% buyers premium tacked on which may go directly to WSF. And most organizations who get these tags have an agreement with the respective donor state for a shared percentage of the sale price. Finding out what that shared percentage is would be extremely difficult. I've never seen this revealed anywhere.

All in all the Wild Sheep Foundation (WSF) does a good job. But organizations like Utah SFW (Don Peay) and Grand Slam Club Ovis (Dennis Campbell) are charlatans plain and simple!

A few years ago GSCO even listed in their overall so called wildlife conservation funds a donation to the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation. GSCO is so bad they claim every tag or hunt they sell at auction the funds go directly to wildlife conservation. Ole P.T. Barnum is looking down from heaven with a big smile on his face thinking there's a sucker born every minute at the wealthy hunters who deal with GSCO and SFW!
 
In Wyoming the seller of the Govenors sheep tags retain 10% of the selling price.

Some states do same, other states (Exa. CA) recieve 100%, thus the 5% buyers premium.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming
 
>Pretty sure the AZ desert bighorn
>went for $315,000 at that
>show as well. Don't know
>why they didn't include it.
>


Ya it did! I didnt even pay attention to it when I copied and pasted it.
 
>In Wyoming the seller of the
>Govenors sheep tags retain 10%
>of the selling price.
>
>Some states do same, other states
>(Exa. CA) recieve 100%, thus
>the 5% buyers premium.
>
>from the "Heartland of Wyoming

That maybe true and maybe I should?ve worded differently but most of the $$$$ goes back. Better than nothing.
 
It depends entirely on which organization is auctioning the tag. The best thing is to contact each respective state game and fish department and find out what percentage of the auction price is shared with the organization. Then post those findings on MM. Most is both subjective and a far cry from all.
And if you or anyone else believes that Utah SFW puts ALL of the money they receive from auctioning a sheep tag in Utah back into sheep conservation they are a fool indeed!
 
SFW are a bunch of crooks for sure. I believe WSF retains 10% and 90% of the sale price goes back to the state for sheep conservation.
 
Kimber, that is correct, WSF has one of five Wyoming Govenors sheep tags to auction.

Don't know about SFW...LOL.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
Guess somebody thinks Montana has another 200+ inch sheep running around.


#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-18 AT 07:46PM (MST)[p]Ask your buddy Nehi as he knows the breaks better than most. Look at his pie chart damnit.
 
The Utah Statewide Rocky Big Horn Tag will be up for auction at the Salt Lake RMEF banquet Friday March 23rd.
If anyone is interested call Corrie Brems 801-842-3527
 
Compare what each state generates in revenue from the sale of bighorn sheep tags both resident and non-resident vs these auction tags (minus the fee taken from "said" organization). How do the dollars stack up?
 
Wow, 3.3 million for peddling sheep tags to the highest bidder...a tidy sum.

I'm just wondering though...what about the average guys that pay year in and year out to fund NM, WA, MT, ID, WY, CO, etc. and their game and fish agencies?

How much do those folks contribute?

Using WY as an example, sportsmen of average means contribute $85,000,000 annually here.

Multiply that, by the 10 states giving tags to the program...advanced math: $850,000,000.

Those same people that are paying the real freight, year in and year out, also volunteer for various Sportsmen's orgs, teach hunters education, etc.

Lets see who are the real hero's of wildlife conservation again? Not even close...and by a landslide.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-18 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]General comment...I get tired of the working class sportsmen getting no credit for all they do for wildlife.

They (hunter of average means), have been the backbone of wildlife conservation since day one, and still are...and we need to remember that...and celebrate it too!

Somebody slings some money at a sheep tag, and they're placed on a pedestal.

That doesn't reconcile for me.
 
I agree with your comments I guess I have not seen the publicity the auction tag buyers are getting. Sadly almost everything in life anymore revolves around money and wildlife management is no different. Tag and license fees just won't pay the bills anymore so the money will have to come from somewhere. NPR recently released an interesting rundown on hunter numbers and demographics. It does not appear the current system will be sustainable in 20 years.
 
>Wow, 3.3 million for peddling sheep
>tags to the highest bidder...a
>tidy sum.
>
>I'm just wondering though...what about the
>average guys that pay year
>in and year out to
>fund NM, WA, MT, ID,
>WY, CO, etc. and their
>game and fish agencies?
>
>How much do those folks contribute?
>
>
>Using WY as an example, sportsmen
>of average means contribute $85,000,000
>annually here.
>
>Multiply that, by the 10 states
>giving tags to the program...advanced
>math: $850,000,000.
>
>Those same people that are paying
>the real freight, year in
>and year out, also volunteer
>for various Sportsmen's orgs, teach
>hunters education, etc.
>
>Lets see who are the real
>hero's of wildlife conservation again?
>Not even close...and by a
>landslide.

No doubt that many hunters pay a lot of money into the various state budgets. But let's get real as it relates to sheep specifically. Until this year (when WY decided to go brain dead) I believe the most expensive place to apply was Montana. By most expensive I mean the place where you invest the most money that you don't get back. $50 in Montana if you don't draw. So let's assume that there are 5,000 people that apply for sheep in Montana. That is a guess and admittedly could be woefully low or high. But that would mean that the state makes $250,000 off of application fees on the entirety of the applicant pool. IF (and that is a massive "if") 100% of that money AND the money generated from the sale of the actual tags in the draw went to Sheep then it still wouldn't match what was paid for the single Montana tag in the auction.

I haven't ever purchased one of these tags. But it wreaks of jealousy to get mad when appreciation is shown to those who write big checks.......checks that directly benefit the animals and herds that they are going to hunt.
 
RdRdrfan,

I understand your comments and know that the auction dollars exceed the fees paid by sheep applicants, I believe, in every western state except Alaska. However, another option instead of purchasing an auction tag is to donate the Hundreds of thousands of dollars to sheep conservation? I realize that some do. Seems more honorable.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-18 AT 03:57PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-18 AT 03:49?PM (MST)

RdRdrFan,Wrong on lots of counts...for starters, Wyoming is the most expensive at $150 non-refundable and if you apply you have no choice to not pay it. Prior to that it was still $100 non-refundable.

Montana is $95 non-refundable if you want to apply and get a point.

Last year 7885 NR's alone applied for sheep tags...cool $750,000 assuming that they all bought the point option, which most do. Add in the license fee for successful applicants to ice the cake. Of course, that doesn't even include the residents that apply...a couple/few residents apply for sheep tags in Montana.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/drawingStatistics/sheep.html

For the record, nobody is getting mad, just pointing out that the real hero's of conservation are the working class that always have paid a vast majority of the bills for wildlife management. The same folks that volunteer thousands of hours, support various Sportsmen's Organizations, and quietly pay, year after year. They also don't expect anything in return but an equal chance to get lucky drawing a tag. They don't cut in line, they don't expect anything extra...and they deserve to be recognized.
 
Always amazed at the divisions that pop up related to auction tags.
They are are very important source of conservation revenue. I'm glad they exist and I applaud the contributions of all those who bid on/buy them. Those $$$ help all of us. Geez.
Can?t we recognize that we all play a big part in conservation together and leave the jealousy out of it?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-18
>AT 03:57?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-18
>AT 03:49?PM (MST)
>
>RdRdrFan,Wrong on lots of counts...for starters,
>Wyoming is the most expensive
>at $150 non-refundable and if
>you apply you have no
>choice to not pay it.
>Prior to that it was
>still $100 non-refundable.
>
>Montana is $95 non-refundable if you
>want to apply and get
>a point.
>
>Last year 7885 NR's alone applied
>for sheep tags...cool $750,000 assuming
>that they all bought the
>point option, which most do.
>Add in the license fee
>for successful applicants to ice
>the cake. Of course, that
>doesn't even include the residents
>that apply...a couple/few residents apply
>for sheep tags in Montana.
>
>
>http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/drawingStatistics/sheep.html
>
>For the record, nobody is getting
>mad, just pointing out that
>the real hero's of conservation
>are the working class that
>always have paid a vast
>majority of the bills for
>wildlife management. The same folks
>that volunteer thousands of hours,
>support various Sportsmen's Organizations, and
>quietly pay, year after year.
>They also don't expect anything
>in return but an equal
>chance to get lucky drawing
>a tag. They don't cut
>in line, they don't expect
>anything extra...and they deserve to
>be recognized.

For the record I pointed out that Wyoming is now more in my original post. So by your numbers there will be less than $1 million in total fees in relation to the Montana sheep draw. How much of that money goes directly towards sheep conservation?

Somebody spent 1/3 of a million dollars that almost all of it goes to sheep conservation and you want to say that they are cutting in line??? The sheep populations across the USA wouldn't be in as good of shape as they are in if it weren't for the big money donors who put their money (and time) where their mouth is for sheep.

These folks that buy these tags are providing MORE opportunity for the working class to hunt sheep by providing the needed dollars that go directly to sheep conservation. And yet you can't let your jealousy of their situation go and just say "thank you."

#metoo much?
 
>Always amazed at the divisions that
>pop up related to auction
>tags.
>They are are very important source
>of conservation revenue. I'm glad
>they exist and I applaud
>the contributions of all those
>who bid on/buy them. Those
>$$$ help all of us.
>Geez.
>Can?t we recognize that we all
>play a big part in
>conservation together and leave the
>jealousy out of it?


Agree 100%
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 12:29?PM (MST)

RdRdrFan,

I don't agree one bit that these tags are providing more opportunity...and the facts prove your statement is hogwash.

In 2007, Wyoming issued 238 ram tags...this year, they are issuing 198, 40 less than 10 years ago.

In 2007, Wyoming issued 759 moose tags...in 2017 they issued 322. Interestingly enough, in the 1980's Wyoming was issuing over 1500 moose tags.

Montana is issuing wayyy less tags for moose, sheep and goat than they did when I first started hunting there in 1979. before a governors tag or raffle tag even existed. Ram permits have declined significantly in over-all numbers or completely eliminated in Upper and Lower Rock Creek, Anaconda, East and West Forks of the Bitterroot, St. Regis/cut-off, Eddy Mountain, lower Blackfoot, Lima Peak,...that I can think of off the top of my head.

Mountain goat hunting has crashed in unit 240 from 75 tags a year, down to ONE for this year. The Rattlesnake, Sapphires, Missions, Crazies, Bob Marshall, Scapegoat, Bitterroots, square butte, goat herds are issuing very few to NO permits for goats now. Almost all of the Bob/Scapegoat is going to be closed to goat hunting in 2018.

Moose in Montana mirrors Wyoming...a fraction of the tags that were issued 15-20 years ago.

The unit in Arizona that I killed my desert sheep in 2012 has gone from 6 to 1 tag since then. I haven't been able to apply for a NR Rocky tag in Nevada for several years. I bought my NR Alaska Sheep tag at Wal-mart in 1995, now its draw only and has crap odds.

If you're going to make unfounded claims that these tags are "providing MORE opportunity", you need to provide the proof/facts to support that...I'm not seeing that at all in Montana and Wyoming for moose, sheep, or goat. I'm not seeing more opportunity in AZ, OR, WA, or NV either.

What I'm seeing is 180 degrees opposite. I'm seeing more and more tags going to special interests and less and less opportunity for the sportsmen of average means. The facts I presented illustrate it perfectly.

If anyone needs to calm down and look at the facts...I would suggest its you that needs to take a comprehensive look at what "fruit" these tags are bearing...or in this case, aren't.

We wont even get into the issues of the way that Management is being influenced because of these tags...and the lost opportunity that Resident and Non-Resident Sportsmen continue to experience via GF agencies having manage around these set asides.

I've left the moral and ethical argument out of this...and presented only facts. Facts still matter in any discussion, yes?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 12:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 12:53?PM (MST)

BuzzH the vast, vast majority of those auction $$ go directly to conservation.
I have an article that breaks down the $$ from resident tags/apps, NR tags/apps, and auction tags in all the western states and Canadian provinces. The NR tag/app money is huge, as are the auction tag $$$.
If you can't see that provides more opportunity for all - you simply don't want to see it.

Taking select places where tags have decreased due to wolves, disease, more applicant demand, etc. and trying to use that to argue auction tag money actually hurts conservation is about as disingenuous as it gets.
 
I never said the auction tag money hurts conservation...just the unfounded claim that the money has resulted in "more opportunity for everyone".

That's not true at all...and the facts prove it.

I'm not cherry picking anything, statewide quotas for moose, sheep, and goat are down in Montana across the board, significantly. Statewide moose and sheep in Wyoming are down significantly.

How can anyone argue that these tags are IMPROVING opportunity for all, they aren't.

Do you have numbers to prove otherwise, or do you just like to ignore the facts?

I'm willing to look at your numbers or you can make a run at refuting mine.

I'll be waiting...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 01:31PM (MST)[p]Auction tags = more $$$ for conservation. Conservation = more animals for all.
Therefore auction tags = more opportunity for all.

I refuted your numbers by pointing out the obvious fact that the declines you reference are due to several other reasons, none of which have anything to do with auction tags and the millions of $$ they provide for conservation.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]The only trouble with that "theory" are the facts.

I'm still waiting for your numbers to prove me wrong...

The reasons don't matter, that wasn't what is being presented. You and RdRdrFan are telling us that these tags are resulting in more opportunity for all?

They aren't...and again, facts matter.
 
Yeah facts matter.
Those $$$ are real and they go to conservation (as you admit). Conservation benefits everyone.
Yours are illogical and don't support the conclusions you draw from them.

Geez, I feel like I'm back in 7th grade - ?I know you are but what am I?? :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-18 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]Apparently the fact you don't seem to think matters is that less opportunity never equals more opportunity...any way you slice it.

Its just hilarious watching people deny the numbers...funny stuff.
 
There are many reasons why populations ebb and flow and they have been pointed out to you. The reality is that money for conservation for a specific species is a good thing.

You want to talk about facts and hard numbers? Explain to me how $335,000 going towards sheep conservation is a bad thing. Explain how the money from that tag ISN?T providing more opportunity when the only ?cost? to the state and all other hunters is one sheep. You want to talk about numbers? Hell, yours have been all over the board. What was it you posted in your first message on this thread??? $850,000,000 towards sheep conservation?

You don't admit that you are wrong because admitting that you are wrong would be admitting that your stance is 100% based in jealousy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-18 AT 08:01AM (MST)[p]RdRdrFan,

Just back up your claim, show me the numbers that these tags have resulted in more opportunity for all.

I'm not seeing that...and my numbers prove it.

Wyoming moose, prior to Governors tags...1500 a year, 2007 759 tags, 2017 322 tags.

That's ebb and flow? A steady decline from 1980-2017? When is that species specific money going to turn this around? How long before we're issuing 1500 tags again?

Montana sheep...same thing. Wyoming sheep...same thing. Same in OR, WA, NV, AZ with sheep.

Montana goat units closing 5 more this year, unit that was 75 now issuing ONE tag. For hells sake, Montana is hunting way, way, way, less goats than they did in the 1960's. Is that just ebb and flow?

Just show me where the monetary investment has provided more total sheep tags, more moose tags, and more goat tags (opportunity)...I just want the numbers, not your rhetoric.
 
By your logic they are reducing numbers specifically due to these auction tags.

If you can't see that large sums of money going specifically towards one species is good for everyone that wants to hunt that species then it is either because you are mentally incapable of seeing it or because you just don't want to see it. It isn't difficult.

I'm guessing that you just like to argue and don't want to see it. One of those guys who stands at a urinal and looks to either side and has envy. You just can't stand it that some folks have the cash to buy the tag.

At the end of the day, jealousy only affects you. It certainly doesn't hurt the people you are jealous of.
 
You're wrong...all I want is the numbers.

You said, these tags provide more opportunity, prove it.

Here's what you said, to refresh your memory:

These folks that buy these tags are providing MORE opportunity for the working class to hunt sheep

Where is that additional opportunity?

Wyoming gives 5 Governors sheep tags, and 2 through a raffle. 2007 WY issued 238 tags...2018 will issue 198.

Please clarify how 198>238.

Same with moose give same 5 Governors and 2 through raffle for moose. In 2007 759 moose permits in 2017, 322.

Please clarify how 322>759.

This has nothing to do with jealousy, again, I just want you to explain how you figure "we all" have more opportunity because of these tags.

If that were the case, I would expect the number of tags issued to INCREASE not continue to DECLINE.

What math are you using to back up your claim? Just curious.
 
I will have to agree with Buzz on this one. Although auction tags have provided several states in the West a massive injection of revenue,The money has not resulted in an increase in opportunity to
hunt sheep, goat or moose. Quite the opposite in fact as many of these tags are taken from the pool that were once available to be drawn by the general population. Their are many factors involved but the bottom line is opportunity has decreased as auction tag revenues have increased.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-18
>AT 10:43?AM (MST)
>
>General comment...I get tired of the
>working class sportsmen getting no
>credit for all they do
>for wildlife.
>
>They (hunter of average means), have
>been the backbone of wildlife
>conservation since day one, and
>still are...and we need to
>remember that...and celebrate it too!
>
>
>Somebody slings some money at a
>sheep tag, and they're placed
>on a pedestal.
>
>That doesn't reconcile for me.

I have to agree with Buzz here. Yes, it's impressive that people shell out that kind of money but a lot of that is old money and no sacrifice. I cant think of a single thing, short of my children starving, that would make me do the things I do to hunt haha. From picking up a second job cleaning bathrooms, to donating to plasma twice a week, it's an extra $8,000 a year that goes directly to new gear, application fees, gas in the truck for hunting trips, out of state licenses and taxidermy. It sounds like a sacrifice, but to me there is no compromise. Conservation is important and having these experiences at an age that you will never get back is important and working class hunters should get credit for that.
 
We have a president who was elected because he had a lot of money and a huge ego. don't hold sheep hunters to a higher standard.









Stay Thirsty My Friends
 

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