Running dogs in Utah question

This is the first time I have been in this particular forum so I have a quick question. I know all the outfitting laws for Utah so I understand being compensated is against the law. My question is this, If you have dogs why don't you take the test and get an outfitter license?

The $100 bucks or so a year is a drop in the bucket compared to keeping dogs around and trained and then you can help out people like TUT who just posted about lion hunt help on the Beaver unit. You can run your dogs and take their money without worry. I have often wondered this as I too would like to chase lions or bears in Utah when I get my tag but would need the assistance of one with dogs. It would be nice to find people who just want to run dogs and kill predators without having to pay the going 'outfitter rate'. I just want to have fun, do a hunt, and make friends. Its not like hunting mule deer where everyone can be a 'guide'. Having dogs takes time, money, dedication, and patience that only a few can have and only a few of those can even be great at it. That is why the rest of us are looking for you to help out on hunts.

If you don't have an outfitter license, do you just have dogs as a hobby? Just curious to know the reasoning for not taking the test. Thanks for any responses to clear this up.

Foxskinner, I know it probably doesn't make a lot of sense for us houndsmen not to wanna make money killing lions. although the extra cash would be nice in the many, many expenses that comes along with running dogs but if we were all licensed outfitters taking out every guy that just wants to have a fun hunt and kill a lion then there would be no more lions for us to chase. If I kill a lion in my backyard for a guy that I don't even know, it ends up costing me a lot more in gas to go find another one to run my dogs on. If I take a guy out in a unit away from home to kill one then I just screwed over someone else in that area for a guy just training his dogs. So basically when we get offered a couple hundred bucks or gas to help kill a lion it ends up costing us more than that just in gas to find another cat to train dogs with. If there were more lions then it would probably be a different story. I know a lot of guys think there are lions under every rock but if you really get out and hunt them you'll see how many other hounders you have to compete with just to find a canyon to cut for tracks. I spend an average of $300 in gas a week year round looking for tracks, $240 in dog food and then keeping equipment maintained is another $100 or so a month.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to us guys that just enjoy working dogs and chasing kitties to wanna kill a cat for every guy that wants a lion. It is really just a hobby for a lot of us that invest years to learn the sport and a huge financial obligation, not to mention how hard it is on a family life looking for dogs all the time. So if you don't see a bunch of posts every time a MM?er wants a lion maybe you can understand a little why we don't want them wiped out.

I hope I'm not offending anyone here, just trying to help some understand a very misunderstood sport.

Obtaining an outfitter/guide licenses though the DOPL is
NOT the driving factor in this case.......

It's the special use permits that are issued be the forest
service and BLM that are the driving factor here.

These permits are EXTREAMLY difficult to come by anymore,
If not impossible on some districts...

There for, anyone not already have these special use permits
all ready acquired, would be wasting their time getting a
Utah (state issued) outfitters license.....

If you don't already have them, your pretty much screwed in Utah.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-13 AT 04:44PM (MST)[p]Yep, like Goofy said, it takes more than a guide's license to make you legal on public land. I'll guarantee if another hound dogger were to show up on the Beaver unit, for instance, charging only a few hundred bucks, and the outfitter that currently has the special use permit for the area found out about it, he would be on the phone to authorities mucho pronto.....and who could blame him??

To add to what mgd said, a houndsman doesn't need a dead lion at the end of a successful day. Watching the dogs work a track successfully is more than enough reward for most of us, and releasing it unharmed is even better. Because, unfortunately, dead lions leave no tracks for next time.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-13 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]Permits also require liability insurance that doesn't come cheap. You then need a binder that costs for the BLM, Forest and State Lands seperately from many insurance companies. The insurance requirement is at least $1,000,000. If you hunt more than one BLM district area, it's a seperate permit for each area. This doesn't come cheap. The permits are not free either. For me to be properly licensed, permitted and insured runs several thousand dollars each year. I'm constantly blown away with everyone thinking anyone with hounds wants to kill every animal they catch. I don't see people wanting someone to load up their horses and take everyone on the internet up to their favorite hunting spot and saying "go ahead and kill that 380 bull I found for you" or hauling them up to camp and getting excited for them to shoot a 28" buck that just needs to die. Houndsmen do it for the love of the chase, the watching of their dogs mature from pups to dogs that get it done. It's not about killing everything in a tree. Those people who have dogs and want to kill everything they tree usually don't have much for dogs and won't be around very long before they move on to easier hobbies. Bottom line is "Dead lions don't leave tracks". Kill it today, you won't run it again tomorrow.

You guys all bring up good points. It sounds like it is mostly a hobby for you all and I respect that. I have friends and family that run dogs and all I hear about is how much fun the chase is. I haven't been on one yet but I hope to.

One other question related to all this. Do you guys run bears during the spring/summer months with your dogs or do you stick strictly to cats. Seems to me that I only ever hear discussions about running cats in Utah. We have a good bear population so does anyone run them? Just curious if you guys feel the same way about running bears as lions?

LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-13 AT 05:35PM (MST)[p]
Yes most of us run bears as well as lions, spring, summer and fall when possible. I'm also a licensed guide and continually witness hounddoggers running their hounds after lions and bears (supposedly for free). Its always for free but generally there is barter and trade going on. But in the end a person makes choices and learns to live with them.........