i got my doe (story)

oldoregon · Oct 23, 2003

last night, in the process of harvesting my doe, i was presented with three very difficult decisions, involving ethics. well i was at home, and my friend called and said there was bout 50 does in one of his fields near his house. so i drove like hell to get there, cause dark was coming on, and when i got there we hurried out there to get to the does. we went out there, and ther was probly 40 of them, lots of bucks too, so i tried to pick out one that had no baby, and was big. i picked on out that was prodide, bout 220-250 yards out, i though out that far, id have to aim high, cause all the bbullets i had grabbed on the way out were 220 grains lefover from bear season (.30-06 model 70). so i sat down, extended my bipod, and took my shot, with the cross hairs flat on her back. well i missed, and she, along with the other deer milled about wondering WTF. well i kep an eye on her, and she didn seem to worried, so i stood up, restedd on a fence post to take the shot. well right as i done so she saw/smel/heard me and kinda started running (not too fast , kind a trot) and i took the shot, she dropped. but was trying to get up, so i rand over to her, loading a shell in as i ran (only loaded 2 in first place) we had too cross a fence and a ditch to get too her. well, by the time i got there it was to dark to see, and i couldnt find her. my friend was carrying a spotligh, just incase we would have to gut her in the dark. so he put the spotlight on her, i put one through both lungs from 50 yards. we gutted her in the dark, and got her home. my question about ethics is, should i have taken the running shot, should i have shot after dar, and should i have used a spotlight?

Later Yall!!!!

RuttCrazed · Oct 23, 2003

By the time you got to her it was too dark to see? How long does it take you to run 200 yards? Out here the law state you can shoot between one-half hour before official sunrise through one-half hour after official sunset, so I am guessing your first shot probably happend after that. As far as the spotlight goes you can not use a spotlight, headlight or any other artificial light to locate protected wildlife while in possession of a firearm.....so that's 2 strikes. The running shot is a personal choice, maybe you are that good maybe you are not. Personally if I missed a shot at an animal standing still while the gun was on a bipod, I wouldn't take the running shot, especially if you didn't even know where your 220 grain bullets where going to hit. So by my count that is 3 strikes against you!

Rut

bowhunt · Oct 23, 2003

Rut,
Nice response! You are right on.

Blueoak · Oct 23, 2003

I would not shoot a doe. Strike four!

oldoregon · Oct 23, 2003

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-03 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-03 AT 11:14?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-03 AT 11:07?AM (MST)

it took us so long to get there, buecause we had to walk like a 1/4th of a mile to get there because there was a ditch and two fences, that we had to go around. i shot the doe in legal shotting light, i know it for a fact, and if i wound a deer, i am going to kill it, spotlight or not. do you think i should have just let her rot, and suffer, i think not, i will do what it takes to kill her, if i wounded her. the only way i could find her was to use the light. and whats with the strike 4, i was feeding my friggin family with a doe tag. i hunt bucks for sport. but if i dont get a buck tag, i have to have something to fall back on or my family will not eat.

to you all, what would you have done in this situation. you shoot a deer on the fringe of legal light, put it down, but it is suffering, you have to walk a ways to get ther, and by that time it is getting fairly dark, not pitch dark, (not even close)but farly. would you just go home, and leave the wounded deer. HELL NO, you would do whatever necessary to get that animal. in my situation we had to locate the deer with a light. Its what a did, im not really asking you to bash me for what a did, i just wanted to ask someone what they would do. i am only 16, most of the people on this site are alot more experiensed than me, i was just wondering those people thought of this situaton. please don bash me over this, i just want to have a civil conversation, i really respect yalls opinions.

and why is this a count of strike, i could care less wether i have strikes or not, i got the deer, and we really need the meat this winter, and that ius what is important.

somebody is probably going to bash me about the bullets, ballistics, what i did wrong, how i am full 0f #####, blah... blah... blah... but i dont care, i did what i could! i am not saying i am a better hunter, or a better shoot than anyone, i am not saying my 220 grain bullet are zero at 200 yard and 300 blah blah blah, so please dont bash me about that eathir.

Later Yall!!!!

MTBullhunter · Oct 23, 2003

Since you're looking for OPINIONS, here's mine:

Although technically, it sounds as if you didn't do anything wrong (with the exception of the spotlight - I'll get to that momentarily), ethically, I do have these doubts about the situation:

I'm assuming the doe season didn't end last night, so given the circumstances, I personally wouldn't have taken a running shot at a doe, intermixed with other animals, in a low light situation. Add in that you weren't sure of your ballistics, and your heart was probably racing after a long run. You said that there were about 40 animals in the field. Given those circumstances, I would have waited for another day to take my doe - it's not as if you were after a specific buck, and this was the only chance you had at him. I'm sure there will be more does in that field, mostly likely the very next day.

As for the spotlight, you broke the law. The law is the law, and is not up for moral interpretation. If I had a wounded deer, and darkness set in, I would wait a reasonable amount of time (45 minutes) and then begin tracking her, unarmed, with a flashlight - similar to what you would do if archery hunting. Hopefully, she was well hit and would have lied down and died - she would not rot in this short amount of time.

That's my opinion - which you solicited. Sorry if it isn't the answer you were looking for.

oldoregon · Oct 23, 2003

you are right, thanks for a civil response, but, your flashlight is just as illegal as the spotlight, the law is the law. it wasnt really a huge spotligh, just a kinda flashlight deal. and we knew exacly where the deer was, it wasnt like it krawled into the woods. it was right there. one of the back legs was broken, it not like it even could krawl in the woods. it was right there in the field, Its no diffrent than you truing to locate it with a flashlight. i was just trying to find it.

Later Yall!!!!

MTBullhunter · Oct 23, 2003

Re-read my post. I stated that I would track her with a flashlight, while UNARMED. There is nothing illegal about that. I would not use the flashlight to find her, then shoot her in the beam of the flashlight - that's the difference.

BrianID · Oct 23, 2003

oldoregon,

I don't think that MTBullhunter has a problem with you using a spotlight to find your deer but has a problem with your friend holding the spotlight while you put one through both lungs at 50 yards. Like MTBullhunter said what is the rush on shooting at a doe on the run with bullets that you don't know where they will hit. You could probably go out any night and get a good clean shot.
Still congrates on the deer. Even though it is a doe I would still like to see pictures.

oldoregon · Oct 23, 2003

thanks, i will try to get some pics, she was a sleek, buatifull muley doe, she was dry to, no milk in the sacks.

Later Yall!!!!

dutch · Oct 23, 2003

I would have to stand up for Oldoregon, the buck I shot last year was late in the evening. My neighbor gave us permissiion to go over to his field if any bucks were out there so we went over by his pond and sat.
When he came out you could still see pretty good. By the time I took the shot (80 yards) with no fences or ditches and by the time we got to him it was still pretty light but dark closes fast this time of the year.
By the time we dragged him over to the road and onto my land to dress him, I didn't want to leave the gut pile on my neighbors' land, it was pitch black. That was only about 10 minutes of time. We had to use the headlights on my truck to dress him out.

Now, the ethics question, after dark and you have a 'wounded' deer. How many of you would let it suffer and die slowly or get eaten by a predator because it can't get away. I would of shot put it out of its' misery as well.

BUT, since it was just a doe and if it was not the last day, I would of passed her up and got out a little earlier the next day.

However in this situation, if it was already wounded you did the right thing I think. We all know if you had a spotlight and went out there at dark then found it and shot it at first, of course that is illegal.

MTBullhunter · Oct 23, 2003

In my opinion, there's a big difference in your story and Old Oregon's. You killed your buck cleanly with one shot, and I assume he wasn't running. Even though it was dark by the time you got to him, you dragged him out in the dark, and only used your headlights to gut him. You didn't use your headlights to assist in killing him.

Old Oregon states that the doe was shot in the leg. I'm assuming ( I could be wrong) that this was the only hit she had taken to that point. Don't you think that she had a chance to survive with just a leg wound? Thus, if he shot her after legal shooting hours with the aid of a light, it was illegal.

We can debate "legal vs. moral" , but the bottom line is the law is in place for a reason - so there is no "gray" area. Like BugleElk states in a post in the Muley forum...you wouldn't use your rifle to finish off a wounded, archery deer, would you? Same type of ethics/laws.

Blueoak · Oct 23, 2003

I don't buy the feeding the family line. You said the freezer was full a while back. You are not even out of school, what daddy can't feed you? I would keep doe killing to yourself and pictures would only make it worse.As far as the light goes, legal or not at least you did not waste it.

BCBOY · Oct 23, 2003

Situation Ethics are great to discuss in the comforts of home and camp but when you are in the situation in the field sometimes you have to think fast and go with your gut. It is very tough to walk away from an animal that is suffering and come back in the morning. That is something most serious hunters have all faced at least once if they have been hunting long enough. The fact is Sh#t Happens, and sometimes bad shots are made. The consquences of a poorly made shot can haunt you a lifetime. The thing about our brains is that it replays that day over and over again. The key is to learn from it and swear that you will try your best to never have it happen again.
When I was 16 I was in a similar situation. I had a Calf Elk draw and saw a cow and a calf just before last light. I shot the calf and he took off. It soon got dark, so my dad and I started on the blood trail with flashlights. Lots of blood on crisp white snow made tracking easy. We jumped him out of his bed twice. Both times we waited a good while before jumping back on the tracks. The tracks led to the lip of a deep canyon with a river 100-150 feet vertical below. The tracks led out onto a small jut over the river and never came back. We shined the flashlights all around and low and behold the elk was on a cliff ledge 20 feet below. Still alive and looking at us. What do you do? It's now a good 2 hours after dark. You can't shoot him because he would fall off the ledge and would never be seen again. We walked away, went back to camp, and hoped and prayed that it bleed enough to die on that ledge. That was one sleepless night I tell you.
We got back at first light and the elk was no longer on the ledge. He instead was down on the ice by the river. He had jumped from small ledge to small ledge, 10 foot and 20 foot falls, in order to get to the river where he finally died. We had brought tons of rope with us and we had to rappel ourselves down to the elk. We quartered it and hauled the quarters one at a time back up the cliff. It took us all day. We didn't get out of there until dark. What a long, tiring, and stressful day.
OldOregon, take what the others have said and learn from it. Let the events replay in your mind so that you can learn what not to do again. Learn from your mistakes or you are doomed to repeat them.

steelie · Oct 23, 2003

I am going to disagree with those that have made statements like "just a doe" and "not a specific buck". Good ethics should be practiced on game of all sizes, if you are not going to take a poor shot on a doe or forkie, then I hope you dont' throw your ethics out the window and take that same poor shot when your looking at a 30" buck.

MTBullhunter · Oct 23, 2003

BC Boy - You make a good point about "arm chair" ethics. You are correct - it is very easy for me to sit back and make ethical judgements from the couch - I wasn't in Old Oregon's shoes yesterday. However, when he asks for opinions in order to gain knowledge, hopefully what has been said by others in this forum will help him to do that. Your story was an excellent example of that - I'll bet that when you finally retrieved that calf, you had a sense of pride of doing things the correct way - and probably didn't need anyone to validate that for you.

Steelie - you too, make an excellent point, and I am humbled a bit by your insightful post. I'll own up - I'm one of the guys that said it was "just a doe/not a specific buck". However, in hindsight, I see I was wrong in that statement. All animals should be viewed upon with the same respect. I guess in my mind, I was thinking, if you are proficient at taking running shots, and it's still legal shooting hours, I might see where you would take a somewhat riskier shot at a big buck than you would at a doe or forkie. However, upon reading your post, I admit that I am wrong in thinking that. No, there is nothing wrong with shooting at a running animal in legal shooting hours- but if you are going to take that shot, then it shouldn't matter what the size or sex of the animal is, because you have confidence in your ability. If your not, then I now see how it would be actually LESS ethical to shoot at a big buck in these conditions.

How about that, I guess an old(er) dog can learn new tricks- and from an internet forum, to boot. I hope some of the younger members here (I won't name names) are paying attention.

bobcatbess · Oct 23, 2003

oldoregon

JUST A QUESTION OR TWO!!!

IF YOU CAN SHOOT 30" MULEYS UP THERE WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU SHOOT A DOE???

THEY SHOOT DOES HERE IN THIS STATE,YOU OUGHT TO SEE THE OVERALL DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE!!!

REMEMBER YALL:IT TAKES ALOT OF LITTLE BUCKS TO END UP WITH A FEW BIG BUCKS,IT TAKES ALOT OF DOES TO HELP MAKE A FEW BIG BUCKS!!!

I HAVE A QUESTION,IF YOU WERE TRYING TO MAINTAIN OR IMPROVE A HERD,LET'S TAKE A TAME HERD OF CATTLE FOR INSTANCE,SAY YOU HAD 500 COWS AND ONLY ONE BULL,WOULD YOU START SHOOTING THE COWS TO GET THE BULL TO COW RATIO IN LINE???OR WOULD YOU FIND A WAY TO IMPROVE THE BULL NUMBERS???IN THIS STATE THEY HUNT DEER UNTIL THERE AREN'T ENOUGH BUCKS PER DOES AND THEN THEY START CALLING SPECIAL 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNTS TO GET THE BUCK TO DOE RATIO IN LINE!!!

THIS WON'T WORK!!! DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

YOU CAN PROBABLY TELL I DON'T LIKE 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNTS,IF YOU KNEW WHATS HAPPENED IN THIS STATE,YOU WOULDN'T LIKE THEM EITHER!!!

I'M SURE CASS. IS GONNA BE PROUD OF YOU ON THIS ONE,JUST KIDDING!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WITH NO 35"ER'S OR DOES ON THE WALL!!!

polarbear · Oct 23, 2003

I dont buy it. And why in the hell would you shoot a doe? A lot of his accounts are fishy at best. O-O, listen to these guys and learn something. Also try to show some self restraint.
Eric

steelie · Oct 23, 2003

MTbullhunter - I am impressed, you saw an opposing viewpoint and actually thought about it first without challeging me to a chainsaw duel or commenting on the size of tires I have on my rig. I too hope the "Kiddie Krew" was taking notes, they could learn alot about class. I don't want to come across as preaching too much, I can certainly see how someone can come across those feelings in the field and I'm not suggesting I am immune to that myself, I would like myself and everyone else to be though.

On to oldoregon's hunt:

oldoregon wrote:
"what would you have done in this situation. you shoot a deer on the fringe of legal light, put it down, but it is suffering, you have to walk a ways to get ther, and by that time it is getting fairly dark, not pitch dark, (not even close)but farly. would you just go home, and leave the wounded deer. HELL NO, you would do whatever necessary to get that animal"

Well I was involved in an almost identical situation on Sunday. My father-in-law shot a buck right at the end of legal shooting. It was a very long shot, I would not call it ethical, if it were one of my friends I would have let my feelings known, but not worth causing a rift in an already strained in-law relationship, so I kept my mouth shut and hoped he wouldn't hit it. I've been second guessing that decision now, since the old man is a much better shot than I had thought, but not good enough to get the job done. He hit it right in the front shoulder. The buck limped a couple hundred yards further away from us and bedded down. Head up, looking around, obviously not going to die soon. This is were we ran into the same problem as oldoregon had. For us to get into position for another shot, it would have been dark. So we decided to leave him until morning. So to answer your question, no I would not do what you did.

You also stated in a different thread that you spoke with the CO and what you did was legal. This is copied from the Oregon Big Game Hunting Regulaitons:

No Person Shall:

Use an artificial light for hunting any
wildlife, except raccoon, bobcat, and
opossum provided the light is not cast
from or attached to a motor vehicle.
This includes laser sights or any other
sights which project a beam to the target.
This does not include battery operated
sights which only light the reticle.
? Cast an artificial light from a motor
vehicle while in possession of a
weapon; or cast an artificial light upon
a game mammal, predatory animal, or
livestock from within 500 feet of a
motor vehicle while in possession of a
weapon.

Do you expect us to believe Oregon fishcops don't know the correct regulations?

oldoregon, you cannot choose which laws to follow and which ones to not, I have no doubt that the doe you shot suffered less than the buck I spoke of. That does not make it right, if spotlighting were legal to retrieve wounded game, poachers would have a hay-day. That is why these laws are in place, sure a few deer will suffer due to them, but the entire herd is better off because of them.

Hawkk33 · Oct 23, 2003

Well Polarbear in my instance if my mom wants a dry doe to jerky up I will get it for her IF one my great-aunts wants a doe i will try to get her one after all you can't eat horns.

nvhunter · Oct 23, 2003

man..you guys are being pretty tuff on him. He stated that he did not get a buck tag so he has to shoot a doe. Nothing wrong with that. I think he made his first mistake by starting his trip to his friends field by being in such a hurry. ie. wrong bullets, hurrying to get a shot before dark, i haven't seen too many hunts go right when they start by having to hurry to get th job done, too many hasty, bad decisions. The does more then likely would have been there the next morning or the next evening when he could have been more prepared and been there before dark. A couple of the other situations that were given as examples seem to really be totally different. ie. one buck wounded at a great distance, left overnight, right choice. One calf elk on a ledge, left overnight, right choice. Oldoregons doe seemed to be still in the field..wounded...not totally dark yet, i probably would have shot her in the flashlight beam also. The worst feeling in the world is leaving a animal to suffer, especially when it can be finished in a matter of a couple of minutes. It's easy to judge when the only thing you have to answer too is the computer screen. I just don't think he was moraly wrong for what he did, legally.....yea i think he pushed the limit. But really....would you have NOT finished the job??? I think most everyone here would have finished what they started in this situation.

Cooter · Oct 23, 2003

Feeding the family? Being a 16 yo provider for the entire family has got to be tough, especially with cowboying, logging and school.
Can't understand why you have to feed the family with all you already have on your plate...........

fisrtcoueswas80inches · Oct 23, 2003

i have shot both of my elk at near dark, it was legal shooting hours, but by the time we got them gutted and in the truck we had to use light. as to the shot, if u can make it then good for you, using the light while gutting her out was not a big deal in fact i give u props because some people wouldnt have the b@lls to do that because of the fact of getting n trouble
casey

NEBHUNTER · Oct 23, 2003

MAYBE IF US HUNTERS DIDN'T SHOOT ALL THE YOUNG BUCKS THERE WOULD BE MORE OLD BUCKS. THE REASON FOR DOE ONLY UNTIS IS TO CONTROL THE POPULATION BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND. THERE IS ALREADY A BUT LOAD OF DEAR OUT THERE. I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM WITH CONTROLING THE POPULATION.AND ALSO ANYONE WHO HAS 500 COWS AND 1 BULL IS AN IDIOT,NOTHING INTENDED, ALL YOU DO IS BUY MORE BULLS YOU CAN'T BUY BIG BUCKS. WELL YOU CAN IT IS CALLED A OUTFITTER.

BUGLELK · Oct 24, 2003

I would have to mostly agree with nvhunter. Oldoregon put himself in the situation where he had to choose between moral vs. legal due to his lack of preparation. Hunting is not about rushing out to your neighbors house to fling some lead at a doe in his field. It requires a full time commitment many people are not willing to make.

The animals, whether it is "just a doe" or not, deserve our respect, and by rushing out the door in a hurry with no previous preparation, you have shown that animal, along with fellow hunters, no respect. Because of this poor judgement and lack of preparation, you are put into a new situation that causes you to have to choose between legal and moral. If you would have spent hours shooting your rifle during the summer, you would have known exactly where your gun was hitting, and the chances of you wounding a deer at a reasonable distance would have been much, much lower.

We can't force you to practice and prepare, or to repect the animals you hunt, but we can point out your mistakes due to a lack of these factors when you broadcast your actions over a public hunting forum.

schmalts · Oct 24, 2003

He is just a kid, and it still shows that he asks these questions.

willyqbc · Oct 24, 2003

My humble opinion, is that finishing the doe off right then and there was the correct thing to do. To leave the doe to die a slow lingering death is unacceptable. Now I realize that finishing her off with the aid of a spot light is illegal, but the fact of the matter is that when you put an animal on the ground that is going to die very slowly if left alone, you MUST finish the job. If that means you have to break the law, I think you still have to do it and be ready to face the consequences. To allow her to suffer needlessly to avoid getting into trouble with the law is unacceptable in my opinion. To leave the doe to suffer is wrong, to break the laws of the land is also wrong. Poor judgement put you into a position where you have to make a choice between 2 wrongs to rectify it. If you end up in that situation I think you have to buck up and do what is morally right and deal with the personal consequences after. Basically.... you made your bed, now lie in it.

If you stop and really think about, I'll bet pretty much everyone here has knowingly broken a law with a lot less reason than this situation. For example, we knowingly speed (possibly putting lives at risk) because we are late for work, we know it is illegal but we do it anyway knowing full well that there may be a consequence in the way of a speeding ticket.

Obviously the best answer here is not to put yourself into a position where you have to chose between what is best for your quarry and what is best for you. However, if you end up in this situation and you have a bullet in an animal, I believe you are committed, there is no changing your mind after you have pulled the trigger...you owe the animal that, no matter what may happen to you after the fact.

Sorry if I'm rambling,
I'll hop off my soapbox now.

Chris

BCBOY · Oct 24, 2003

Chris, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. You've got to do what you've got to do. There is no turning back once things go bad. It is easy to play armchair ethics put once that trigger is pulled you have to make your decisions quick. The key is to learn from it and make sure you never get in that situation again.
Was shooting the doe in the spotlight wrong? Yes! But leaving a wounded doe in a field laying there suffering is by far worse. Did he need to use a spotlight to end the suffering? Probably not. If my eyes can adjust to pitch back and I can climb a mountain for an hour and half before even a hint of light, I don't think that it would be too hard to shoot a deer laying in the middle of a field. But that is besides the point. He did what he had to do to end the bad situation. Hopefully the advice given here will sink in to his young head and he will glean some concrete decision making lessons so he won't be doomed to repeat his mistakes.

D13er · Oct 26, 2003

These are some of the best posts I've read on this site. Some very thought out responses and very well expressed. Thank you all.

I remember being 16 and so damn full of energy and so damn empty of worry and good sense that I broke a ton of game laws that today I am not very proud of.

Don't worry about it Oldoregon, just listen to what these guys have written here and have the good sense to keep it in the back of your head the next time you're out.

JB

freedivr2 · Oct 26, 2003

I was always taught not to attempt a shot at an animal in the waning light UNLESS I was 100% sure of the shot. If I had been presented the same situation as you (not knowing the trajectory of your bullet at that distance), I would've held up, no question, and came back the next morning or evening. If there were 40 does in that area, you'd be able to find them there again if you didn't disturb them with a shot.

IF I made the same mistake as you did and wounded an animal at last light, no question that I'd go after it to dispatch it and not let it suffer. But that's not an excuse for what shouldn't happen. The key point here is, though, and I HOPE a lesson learned for you, is not to put yourself in a situation like that again. Besides compromising your personal integrity & ethics by taking a "pot shot" in waning light at a good distance, you could get big time busted looking for an animal with a spotlight and a gun in hand. Good luck in your future hunts and please know exactly where your bullet is going to land at different yardages before taking it out in the field.