nm proposal

rockn9858

Active Member
Messages
291
we have until DEC 4 to stop this. I know lots of you out there that would like to hae the chance to draw every year. I know I do.


O. Quality/High Demand Elk Application Restriction: Any person making application for an Elk
hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? in 19.31.14 NMAC shall not have received a public draw license
for an Elk hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? in the license year prior to the application. Any hunt
choices for a public draw Elk hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? on applications submitted by persons
holding a public draw ?Quality? or ?High Demand? Elk license in the prior year will not be honored.
P. Quality/High Demand Deer Application Restriction: Any person making application for a Deer
hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? in 19.31.13 NMAC shall not have received a public draw license or
permit for a Deer hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? in the license year prior to the application. Any
hunt choices for a public draw Deer hunt designated as ?Quality? or ?High Demand? on applications submitted by
persons holding a public draw ?Quality? or ?High Demand? deer license or permit in the prior year will not be
honored.
 
Nothing in the proposal says you can't draw every year. It says you can't draw Q or HD hunts every year. This is a good compromise on NMDGF's part to try and even the field a little without going to preference points.
I know a couple guys who have drawn 16 three out of four years. If those guys have to sit one out and apply for a lesser unit, it increases the odds for a poor bastage like me who can't draw anything. Gotta say I like the idea.
Say theoretically, I draw a 15 or 16 hunt, I will gladly apply for non HD or Q units the next year. It's better than a 5 year waiting period for elk, and far better than preference points.
You forgot to add the next section about antelope hunters taking a year off. This might make antelope hunting in my home state a reality.
This is probably the best idea on the big game proposals, I don't think our wonderful game and fish department has the smarts to pull it off without a hitch, though. My two cents, anyway.
 
I don't think you will find many supporters. I for one have been cratering the inbox of all the higher ups in the nmdgf begging for a bonus point system of some sort. This won't do much to help but at least it's a step in the right direction. If you draw a quality tag you should be happy you got to go. Apply for a cow hunt and have fun the next year. For god's sake its only one freakin year. If you want this ban you might as well go vote for obama. He'd help you I'm sure of it. then he'd turn around and ban the sale of arrows and ammunition.










When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Hey mods... lets ban rockn9858 I am extremely annoyed by stupid people. And that guys stupid. and no I'm not laughing out loud.







When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
it's no Sh#$ that you came in this world by accident.

What you do not realize is that there is also a poposal out there to make it so that you have to front all the money. and once all these little proposals pass the price of LOT are gooing through the roof. I personally like to hunt quality areas every time I go so when I do not draw I prefer to buy a LOT.

The other thing they are proposing is looking into the reid bill to change the out of state quota on some the the game animals. I just bringing light to some of the proposals coming down the pipe if you don't like it I couldcare less I will still bring it up.

bonus point systems were started by the liberals who went crying to mamma because they couldnt play to. I say lottery draw if you draw then you play if not wait til next year. go cry somewhere else about your BP system
 
and by the way it willl drive all units into the HD catagory were you have to pay a higher price for crap units. and you will be out for a year no matter what DA
 
aaaaalllll righty then! I will agree with you on up front tag prices. I can afford them but most of my friends can't. I say down with that. What I would like to see is the bonus point come back. Keep the NR quota the same and give 5-10% of the tags for each area to the people with the highest bonus points. That would still keep 90% of the tags exactly the same as they are. I would be stoked to know that I would almost be guaranteed to have a chance at a great unit at least twice in my life time and to have the opportunity to maybe draw it every year on luck. I say keep the bonus points away from having any bearing on how many times you are entered in the draw. Simply make it so that we have some sort of chance every so-many years. I am also glad you could care less what I think. you don't know me and I don't know you. And I love to argue. So chat it up. I love a good heated debate. lol. BTW....You forgot to call me stupid. I do believe I called you stupid!




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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Yet another great idea from the "model" fish and game Dept. with a "model" Directer.
 
I think our current program works pretty well. It's not without it's problems but I like the fact that I can hunt big game every year and that even if I don't end up with a primo tag, I might have a chance at a good animal in just about any unit that I was smart enough to put in for as a second choice or third choice. I've seen big animals in several of the non "Quality" units. Besides, if you want to just get out and hunt every year you can check the draw odds and put in for the easier draw units that will allow you to draw and have a good chance at harvesting. The "trophy" units in NM are not the only places to harvest trophy game, in fact most of the animals harvested in the Gila are not even close to "trophy" caliber. I've only drawn one quality tag in the past five years and ended up harvesting the smallest bull I've taken in New Mexico on that hunt. Sorry Stinky, but man I hate the preference point system. I finally burned the 14 elk preference points I had in Colorado (which I'd been saving since I was 14) and can't stand the idea of having to start the same process over again here in NM. I don't think I mind the above-proposed changes either, it would even up the draw odds a bit for the guys that never draw and would keep me from ringing the necks of my buddies that seem to draw primo units year after year. And, up-front tag prices are a pain in the @ss for anyone, that's for certain. Stinky, sounds like you are going stir crazy waiting for your hunt up in CO with Slam to start. Good luck and shoot straight. -Cody
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-08 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]I'm with rock and nmelktrout on this- and I don't mind a good-hearted argument either. Everyone always looks at these deals in a short-sighted manner. "Wow- this would help me next year" This deal (discussed here) is a very slippery slope, and I guarantee it will be followed up with additional hunts being labeled Quality/HD, there are many hunts that already have higher demand than the so-called HD hunts, so it's just a matter of time. All the complaints on here about preference point and how other states do it is just ridiculous to me, almost as ridiculous as the P-P lay-away system/rackets they have going in these other states. I also don't? understand how there can be so many gun-totin? conservative republicans (like myself) on here that spend so much time wining about how other folks are getting more ice-cream then they are and how something HAS TO BE DONE to ?redistribute? the wealth. ?It's not fair- Johnny got to hunt in GMU15 for 3 whole years, and I had to settle for an OTC Barbery? Am I the only one who sees the irony in that?

The draw in NM is a pure draw it does not and can not get any fairer or simpler. If you're not drawing tags then you don't have anything to blame but your own karma, why not put in for some of these other units described (the non Q/HD units) as a 3rd choice ? if your not drawing them- then that just proves this new plan will not work out like you think it will anyway.

(Feel free to call me stupid)
 
here is some more info for everyone but stinky. I'm not talking to him can someone please let stupid know that there is more info. It will be up for a vote at the next commisioner meeting 12-4-08

AGENDA ITEM NO. 16: Adoption of Amendments to the Game and Fish Licenses/Permits Rule 19.30.9, NMAC, and the Hunting and Fishing License Application Rule 19.31.3, NMAC. Presented by Patrick Block ? The Department will provide the Commission with proposed amendments to these rules for adoption. The amendments will relate to establishment of a required sportsperson identification number, changes to draw hunt application fees and a requirement for online draw hunt applicants to pay full license fees at the time of application. The amended rules will apply to the 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 hunting seasons.
 
Sounds great if you're a non-resident with lots of money, not so good for most of us locals. So much for my ever drawing a sheep tag, or an oryx, or an Ibex, or even an antelope for that matter, that adds up on my budget. I'm all for paying my share, but i'd like to get what it is I'm paying for first. I guess the Department can't wait to earn all that interest on our money.

Score one for stinkystomper though, less competition for tags.

stupidisasdoes.jpg
 
A BP or PP systems would suck plain and simple! Talk about not drawing now good god it would be worse.

Up front fees would be awesome. Heck of alot easier to draw those Q/HD units since ol billy-bob from Ratesia cant put his brothers cousins dog in. Dont think that happens then your head is in the sand.
 
Keep it the way it is! It really is the most fair system out there. I would love to hunt Bulls in Utah, but I don't have the time or money to put in for 25 years to build up enough points to draw one of those tags. In New Mexico everyone is on an even playing field.
 
+1 for license fees up front, like Arizona and Colorado. We'll lose half of the NR oryx, ibex and bighorn sheep applications. Without the resident tag quotas on those species, most residents can count on not being drawn as it is structured now. If you get $1618 up front for oryx and ibex, and $3168 for sheep, it only makes residents odds better, as I think a good chunk of the NR's will drop out.


All one needs to do is budget accordingly. I guarantee I get by on a lot less $$$ than most guys on here, but I still hunt. It's easy, plan ahead. If you can't come up with $600 for tag fees by next April, you should probably take up another sport. You'll still get most of your money back anyway:)

Since we're on the subject, what about the draw structure itself? Now I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't NM used to do 3 separate draws? One for each choice? Instead of the one ranking draw, with the leftover afterward? Most old timers I run into want to implement the old draw structure, fees up front, and limiting applications to one weapon choice. Most of the single weapon choice guys are bowhunters..
 
I am glad they are looking at doing something.

I have never drawn a bull tag in NM. I know a guy that has been putting in for oryx for over 20 years and has not drawn and he is a resident.

I also know guys that have drawn elk tags here in 34 3 of the last 5 years.

I could live with cash up front or changing to where you take a year off if you draw a premium tag. I could care less, if it would give one of my kids a better chance to draw on a year I did not.

Last time I was not called stupid, but, I was called an idiot because I liked the fact that NMGF is considering some other ideas.
Cant understand why some folks get so nasty about talking about this.
 
505- Your probably right about the license-fees-up-front to some degree, and I admit I'd probably end up squirreling enough money away in a sock to cover my fees every year (remember to double that $$ amount for every kid you have that you're trying to get into hunting)- but I'm sure many NM hunters would be throttled back to just deer/elk.

If we had to look at it logically, NR versus resident is probably still going to be dictated (and seperated) by the 12% max set on NR tags, and ultimately I think the winners are going to be folks (NR and Res.) with money, and the losers are going to be those (NR and Res.) without it, a trend I dislike seeing in the sport of hunting. I personally would be much closer to the "without" group than a guy with a college degree and good career (and kids and a mortgage) should have to be when we are talking about standardized public hunting oportunity. There are plenty of other ways for folks with money to go hunting.

As far as the draw structure, you have the gist of it. I'll argue quite loudly that the current draw is far superior. I'm real familiar with the numbers, and the second and third choice was almost entirely moot in the old system, as the way it used to work there would be very few spots available for a second choice app to draw a tag, and it was effectively just a leftover tag system. In the current system, you can apply for your OIL superhunt, a great hunt, and an old standby hunt and have the appropriately corresponding chance to draw one of them- the old way you had to choose in advance which one to apply for. I'm not sure why anyone would want to go back to that.

I also don't see the harm in letting folks apply for multiple weapon choices on one app. I think it encourages folks to expand out and pick up the muzzy or the bow, or try primitive units. and that really works to provide more oportunity for everyone (game dept can issue almost 2 bow tags to every rifle tag.) Die-hard bowhunters don't like that for obvious reasons.

I'll be hunting a 3rd choice 2b bowhunt this January, so that might explain my opinion some.
 
Some more food for thought,

I wanted to get a feel for the real impact of the proposed plan to exclude successful Q/HD hunter from applying for these hunts for the following year.

I picked out three Quality or HD hunts from last years statistics posted on NMDGF?s website. I kinda tried to find a representative sample: the late 2B deer hunt (DER-1-108), a Valle Vidal O.I.L mature bull hunt (ELK-1-376), and a 16B mature bull rifle hunt (ELK-1-245)

2B deer- 465 tags, 9763 (resident+NR all choices) total applicant =5%
VV elk- 40 tags, 2242 (resident+NR all choices) total applicant =2%
16B elk 148 tags 1738 (resident+NR all choices) total applicant =9%

Those include the number of folks that applied for each hunt code as a 1st 2nd or 3rd, but in the context of the numbers of hunters who WOULDN?T be applying for any Q/HD hunts next year it gives you a decent idea of what the statewide average impact might be. Not exactly a monumental change, more of a PR appeasement in my opinion. remember that a lot of those hunters will then be decreasing your odds of drawing other hunts, so the trade off seems pointless to me.

You might also kick around the notion that 5% ?gets? versus 10,000 ?wants? generally equates out to about 20 years you'd be GUARANTEED to wait (and pay in most cases) to draw a 2B rifle deer tag under a prolonged points system, and 9% generally makes the 16B tag an every-10-year affair.

I realize there are many who will recognize there is a lot more to it than these simple percentages, but I'll add that I have a graduate minor in experimental statistics and I get it too. While a student at NMSU I was directly involved in exploring the possibilities of a bonus or preference point system for NM Game and Fish and have worked with the numbers and seen the reality of what a BP or PP would end up looking like- and trust me, it's not all sugar and plum?s.
 
all right there rockn... don't bring to bear the mighty guns of stinky. Im completely speechless. How do I call all of u ignorant and stupid in such a small space. nmpaul, nmelktrout. wtf? talk as if u know me. I think I smell a cabin fire in mayhill u reclusive hillbilly. that's ur new name hillbillypaul. really not laughing now. Honestly though. look at the bp this way. lets look at unit 34. I have never drawn this unit. as a kid it was the only my father would let me apply for. he couldn't afford gas to go anywhere else. I still have never drawn that tag for rifle or muzzy. they give 125 tags for the rifle. if u take out 10% of the tags for the highest bp guy that would leave 113 tags for everyone else. have the guys with the bp draw for the 12 tags first. then put everyone else in for the drawing once each regardless of bp. ur odds of drawing a random tag would decrease by maybe 1%. Why would that be bad. the nr quota would stil apply to the bp 12 tags and everyone would have the same system currently in place. only difference is that the stupid stinkies with bad carma could draw once every 10 years. now come on mr rockin can't u hit harder than that. ok... now im laughing. u guys are too calm and no fun.






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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
i suppose that the next thing we should do is get the liberals to apply this spread the wealth thing to the lottery. it not fair I have been putting in to win the lottery for 20 years and i can't win the big one.
 
Hillbillypaul here. I could get use to that name. Or NMrecluse, NMhermit. Those all fit. I have had enough of dealing with the crazies in the city.
I get a dose of crazies every couple weeks anyhow. At least you didnt draw any pictures of me as a stick person.

Tony, re read my post. I am agreeing with you you knucklehead.
I would be open to something that would allow some of us a chance to draw a tag up here (seems some draw all the time and I have yet to draw).

Bottomline is that there are so many good tags and lots of people want them. There is no system that will create more tags. Just want a chance at one every 5-10 years is all.
 
sorry nmrecluse. I was on my phone and was having a hard time reading all the posts and working at the same time. Sledgehammer in one hand and phone in the other.

ROCKN: Dude... you refering to me as an obama lover or liberal is fightin words. If you wanna call me stupid then call me stupid. But as for liberal????????? I think we got issues now. WTF? (F stands for freak, cuz i'm such a pure guy) I try to start a clean honest fight and you gotta start hittin below the belt. That was low, real low. I think you owe me an apology! Now all your ideas suck! On a serious note. People say that the full fee will curve the overall NR applicants? I think not. Those guys already have the money saved up just to come down. Most will even use an outfitter. It will not halt any NR on the elk deer and antelope. It will however severly reduce the NR's putting in for our bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex. I am fairly well off and was going to put in for MT, AZ, WY, ID, etc. for bighorn this year. I totaly canceled that idea when I found out that I had to fork out all the money up front for a couple of states. I could have afforded it but it was just too big of a figure. Lets do the full fee charge but limit it to sheep, ibex and oryx??? What say you?




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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-08 AT 08:39AM (MST)[p]"A BP or PP systems would suck plain and simple! Talk about not drawing now good god it would be worse.
Up front fees would be awesome. Heck of alot easier to draw those Q/HD units since ol billy-bob from Ratesia cant put his brothers cousins dog in. Dont think that happens then your head is in the sand."




+++++1, I agree totally!!!
 
Stanky you hippy! If we had it your way PETA would run our F&G! But seriously, I just hate preference point systems. You all make some good points for and against and I admit that I always do have LO tags in my back pocket when I don't draw so I'm kind of a pendejo in that sense...I guess a PP system would more greatly effect out-of state hunters as there are so few tags available in the primo units for them. But, I still don' like it. And, as Ropinfool said, I am sick and tired of seeing people put in for every single member of their family for a hunt when those people don't hunt. Ran into a guy on my elk hunt in the Sargent that did his best to screw my hunt up, was carrying a rifle, and trying to get shots off at the elk he, his buddy, and mother-in-law were spooking. Told me that he had drawn the tag on the mountain, but when we were down at the base-area and other hunters were around admitted that his mother-in-law had drawn the tag and that he was "just holding the gun for his mother-in-law because the gun was so heavy." Now that sh!t pisses me off. Maybe the $ up-front system would help with that and would benefit those of us who can put a few hundred dollars up front, but I have a hard time believing that the majority of hunters in NM would support it. It would put quite a burden for quite a few of our fellow in-state residents to deal with. And Keyser, thanks again for the info and the Forrest Gump pic. It wasn't as artistic as Stinky's art but I still laughed pretty hard. Maybe someday I'll be able to have my own ranch and NOT deal with the damned draw process, that's the only fix I can think of.

Happy Halloween you bunch of ugly bambi killers,

Cody
 
I am pretty sure the management of our game and fish could screw up a wet dream. Now because people think their not getting a fair chance at drawing a tag and complaining we now have to find a way to liberalize a system that is probably one of the simplest and fairest draw systems still left in our hunting system. If you are not a bright enough individual to figure out that you should put in for one quality high demand hunt as your first choice and then put in for some hunts that are going to the the hunts of your lifetime on your own I now know why I have inquired many of the idiots I have while hunting my whole life here in NM. I just hope that I get all my quality trophies on the wall before game and fish and all of you that want your fair chance to go on a quality hunt screw it up for the rest of us. You can usually find a quality animal in a lot of the areas in NM if you are willing to do something besides camp in the meadows and areas where the elk frequent and drive the damn roads the whole hunt. If you get one ridge over from all the driving it is amazing the wildlife you are exposed to. Not to mention if Obama gets in have fun buying ammo to hunt with anyways. Just those of us that are smart enough to reload and cast our own bullets might have a chance, then I will be drawing out every year. Yes I have had my successes in drawing hunts, but I have also had my failures. You aren't going to draw out for every hunt you put in for every year. I think that is about as fair as you can get. If they start making this a rich mans game like many other states have done, while trying to make it fair for all of you that whine that you never draw out this hunt isn't going to be worth hunting either and I am gonna have to do something different cause we all know I can't play the money game.

agrvarminthunter
 
whew... talk about a divided community. I still hope they will start a 10% bp system someday. I could careless at the current time, but I have friends that would like to draw tags every once in a while n I don't have high hopes of them doin so. darn!
Oh well. I will just stay with the high priced utah conservation tags n landowner tags whiile I can afford them. and by the way. if obama gets in I don't see him banning ammo. I see him banning primers n powder. go mccain!




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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Your one every 10 year draw scenario is fallacy.
The max pool guys would draw a tag in "no more" than 10 years, everybody behind them continues to wait. Their only hope is the random draw pool and if they were getting a tag in that pool we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
I like the system the way it is. Pick a OIL for your first choice. Pick good draw odds units that you've invested a little shoe leather into as your second and third choices, and hunt almost every year.

The new proposal probably wouldn't affect my strategy at all in the near term, but I agree with kyser: why would we want to start down that slippery slope? Eventually, that'll force more and more people to start applying for my beloved units that supposedly "have no elk" and then I wouldn't be able to draw those either.

And to be honest, I'd rather be hunting the "less desirables" every year with a 30 percent chance of success (if I put in the effort), verses hunting the premiums once every five years with an 80 percent chance of success. Do the math.

I passed on five shootable bulls this year holding out for either of a couple big'uns that I knew were still in there, and ended up eating tag soup, but the hunt itself still beat the crap out of sitting at home in front of this computer waiting for the day when I'd have enough points built up to go hunt 16, 17, or 34.

It's still the most honest and fair system going. I'd hate to see it get messed with...
 
I say go to a 5 year wait if someone draws a Q/HD tag and harvests a buck or bull and no wait if they don't harvest! I drew a once in a lifetime oryx tag quite a few years ago in NM and it was definitely a once in a lifetime tag and hunt. Although I would like to go on another NM oryx hunt I think it's great that other guys can experience this same hunt. I think it is fairly selfish when guys aren't willing to give up a year or 2 to allow someone else the opportunity of going on a quality hunt!

If NM residents are against a 5 year wait keep things as they are for residents and offer the 5 year wait or a bonus pt system to nonres...I would be all for that! As an example, Wyoming offers nonres a pref pt system while Wyo residents don't have it for deer, elk, and antelope.

Waiting 5 years after a quality/HD hunt is nothing! I've been on a number of Western states hunts where I've harvested great bucks, bulls, rams, and billies and am now waiting in line and giving other guys a chance to draw these great tags.

I also really like a bonus pt system where everyone has a chance to draw and guys that have applied for more years have a better chance of drawing. NV cubes the bonus pts so guys that have waited longer in line even have more chances of drawing tags. If NM doesn't want to go to something like this at least a 5 year wait will give guys that continue applying and haven't drawn a tag a better chance!

I also believe the guided draw pool in NM is a big joke! I would guess that a high percentage of landowner tags already go to guided hunters? Why give guided hunters additional tags in a separate public draw pool? Hunters that draw public draw tags always have the option to go guided or do-it-yourself!
 
Leave it alone ...luck of the draw , you might draw or you might not but you have a good chance in a great state every year.
The guy that never seems to draw his tag might just draw 4 or 5 in a row.
I have a ton of money and time (8 years) invested in AZ trying to draw an elk tag but I have drawn 4 NM tags in the last 8 years.
 
Jodog,
Comparing AZ to NM is like comparing apples to oranges! How many elk tags do they hand out in AZ compared to NM! NM hands out an incredible number of elk tags in comparison. I gave up on AZ about 15 years ago because I looked at how many tags they issue, how many guys applied, and how many guys were ahead of me and said screw it. NM on the other hand offers lots of options for season dates, units, etc and it will never be like AZ!

I bet you will notice that you will be waiting a lot more time between tags since more guys are applying for tags and some lucky guys are drawing tags every year or 2 because more and more guys are applying for great limited hunts?

Also, don't you think the guy that has not drawn should have a little better chance of drawing a tag than guys that already drew and harvested bucks and bulls? With a bonus pt system everyone has a chance of drawing a tag but those that have applied more years have a little better chance!

I am definitely with you that a pref pt system in states or units with very few tags tend to make it nearly impossible to draw a tag..even if you are in the top tier of guys with the highest pref pts. It is a pretty bad deal when young hunters or hunters just starting out will likely never have the opportunity to draw a tag. In that case I agree that a pref pt system is hogwash! A bonus pt system is great because everyone has a chance to draw!
 
Paul, I understand your frustration. I don't know what the answer is. It might be more fair to not stop at HD/HQ hunts. Make it a 2 or 3 year wait if you get any Bull tag. You'll have to add LO tags to the wait also or they'll go thru the roof.
 
Jims, I wish everyone could draw a tag every year. I hate not drawing and I don't know what NM will ever come up with I just think the way it is now it's all up to luck, but you do have a good chance of drawing. The guys that don't draw for a long time have the same chance as I do. I was just LUCKY for a few years but at least I had the tags and got to hunt big elk. If a NM pref. point system would benifit us all, thats ok by me.
 
I am all for it! I think it is the best compromise without going to a PP system. Draw a HD/Q unit one year and put in for a cow hunt or a unit you have never tried before the next. And for money up front, I'm all for that too. If you are serious about hunting, you should have no problem putting up the money for the tag. If you are not so serious about hunting, you might think twice before you put in your entire family, your neighbor, and your uncles nephew from his second marriage into the draw. That in itself will improve the odds of drawing a tag. You are going to spend the money anyway if you draw so why not pay up front? To put it simply, I think this system will seperate the men from the boys.
 
I think you need to sit down and do the math on your thoughts tony!! There is NO WAY your idea will do you one bit of good in 34. The draw odds report shows 1815 apps for first choice in 34rifle for 117 tags. That puts 1698 in the second year in your "special" pool for 12 tags. Not good odds at all!! It would take 142 years if ONLY those not drawn in the first year were to continue trying. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but you being the "smart one" of our team should have been able to figure this one out!!!!!!!
I DO think that the money up front will change the draw pool considerably. I personally know of many guys who will probably drop out of the game completely because of it. They will claim that they don't have that kind of money and that's fine with me. If they don't have it at app time, what makes them think they will have it at draw time?? I for one take my hunting seriously and will see to it that I have the money for it if I gotta knock off a convenience store to do it! A lot of the "others" are just playing a game in hopes of getting to go and many of them will WASTE their opportunity if drawn in my opinion. I know of one who drew the 34 bow this year who hunted a grand total of ONE DAY!!! I can guarantee that he will not put in next year if he's gotta pay up front for the draw.
And let's stop comparing apples and oranges shall we? The NONS have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the RES draw. Except for maybe if they go to this new system. Q/HD is figured on the percentage of NON putting in for first choice.
 

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