Non-Typical Buck Question??

[LIK2HNT]

Any deer biologist out there? or any one who has watched a non-typical buck year to year?

I have been watching two young, small blacktail bucks that appear to be twins. Both have a 3x2 main frame about 16 inches wide. One has eye guards and the other does not. Both have an extra 3 inch main beam comming out each side, and the one without eye guards has one of his extra main beams forked. Both these deer are the same size and are either together or apart in one of two small canyons. I did not see either of these bucks last year, unless they were just small forks. The only other non-typical I have ever seen in this area was about 4 years ago. It had 4 points on one side with two main beams on the other that both forked and had about a 20 inch spread. I chased this buck all archery season and never saw him again after that winter.

Some of my questions are:
Do non-typicals keep their same basic horn configuration year to year or do they change?

Could of these bucks been small forks last year and turned into non-typicals this year?

Is this a gene that gets easily passed on?, or skips generations?

Since non-typical blacktails seem to be rare, what are the odds of seeing more non-typicals in the future?

I am thinking of trying to get one of these bucks this archery season and seeing what the other one turns into next year if he makes it through the season.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Devlin]

Well Bill give me some directions to where these bad boys are at and I'll check them out and get back with you on the questions..he...he...Devlin

 

[BigChicken]

I read Erwin Bauer's book entitled "Mule Deer-Behavior Ecology Conservation". If I remember right, he said that non-typical antler configurations can be caused by an injury or can be brought on by old age (both probably due to hormonal changes). I think the tendency for non-typical antlers, just like all traits, is passed on genetically though. It wouldn't surprise me at all if all three of those bucks you saw were related.

My cousin and I shot a couple of bucks on the same mountain four years apart. Each buck has cheaters that protrude from the same general locations on the antler, almost point for point. It seems very unlikely that these two bucks were not related somehow. Since you are seeing similar non-typical antlers on two young deer you can rule out injury and old age, that only leaves genetics, either that or their mamma just kicked them both in the head. Fascinating stuff isn't it.

 

[Bura Nut]

I held off answering this post with information I have experienced because all the new people are bashing. Basically like BigChicken said, genetics will play a part, but injury will also play a part in non-typ horns from what I understand. I am born and raised in the NW specifically washington state and have killed a few blacktails. I have shot one non-typ that has extra eye guards. If I understand biology, a bodily injury to the left side of the deer can and will result in a non-typical horn on the opposite side. Now I also have a coues with non-typical points on the left side and assume based on biological data that this buck could have had a prior injury or genetics played a part. It is a tough thing to figure out, so the best advice would be to hunt the animal if he looks good to you................ Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[deerbedead]

It's in the genetics. Most nontypicals are produced from genetics passed along from one or both of the parents. Some bucks or bulls will carry a dominant gene that will reproduce an almost identical rack on it's offspring. Sometimes the doe or cow will pass along the dominant gene and the offspring will inherit the type of rack that the mother's dad had.
Injury related abnormalities are easier to spot. They have to occur while the antler is in velvet, and will have a deformity at the base of the antler, or wherever the injury occured. One common deformity is the "acorn" on the antler tips. This happens when the tips are damaged, then scab covers the tip while the blood continues to flow forming a bulge, then when it heals it finishes of in a point that looks like an acorn.

I would say that where you have two bucks that appear to be twins and their antlers both have double main beams, the likelyhood of both of them having the exact injury is almost impossible. Definitely genetic.
Travis

 

[coonhound40]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-05 AT 08:21PM (MST)[p]About 7 or 8 years ago I was hunting with a friend of mine when he shot a 6 x 9 with 3 drop tines.(Washington blacktail) We found the matched set of drops from the previous year and one from an earlier year, they had exactly the same structure. This particular bucks rack was actually a little smaller than the sheds we found from the previous year, don't know if it was age or environment. What a tremendous blacktail.

 

[BCBOY]

I cannot comment directly about Blacktails, but my experience with muleys is that Nontypical growth is mainly genetic. I have seen similiar nontypical traits come from certain areas whereas other areas produce straight typical genetics.
The fact that the 2 bucks you are watching have double mainbeams and you saw a buck in there a few years back with double mainbeams tells me its genetic.
I have watched several indivual nonypical bucks over multi-years and have seen some keep the same nontypcial growth from one year to the next. Have also seen bucks gain nontypical growth as they age and then lose that growth and clean right out. I don't know why that is, but I'm assuming that is gentic too.

 

[BCtwirp]

so, bura thinks that if you damage the left side of the deer, that it will result in a nontypical growth on the right antler?


bwahahaha

 

[BUCKSPY]

The neuro pathways from the body to the brain, via the spinal cord do a swap in the corpus callosum which is why the left side of the brain controls the right side of the body and vice-versa. Antlered animals with moderate to serious injuries have been shown to throw unusual, abnormal and non-typical growth on the opposite side antler from the injury.

bwahahaha

 

[BCtwirp]

and where is your proof? like im going to believe what you say? show me who did the research,

that is like saying that if you whack off with your left hand that your IQ is alot higher

 

[BCBOY]

"Throughout their growth and development, antlers are living appendages. They can be injured just as a leg can be fractured or a rib broken, causing a deformity or halting furthur growth. An interesting fact is that an injury to a buck's leg can be associated with a stunting or abnormal growth in the antler on the opposite side."
-Erwin A. Bauer, "Mule Deer: Behavior, Ecology, Conservation"

 

[BCtwirp]

i agree that an animal can injure his antler when in the velvet, but as far as jumping off a cliff and spraining a deer ankle and growing a cool triple dropper is just whack, what do they do, have a bunch of imbred deer on a farm, go and injure one side of the deer just to see if it will grow an abnormal horn the next year?

CMON MAN GET REAL.

 

[answermonkey]

BCT,
I understand your frustration. Technically BuckSpy isn't exactly correct. There has been a great deal of research on this issue, mostly in the areas of Neuroscience and Psychology. The right hand is controlled by the left cerebral hemisphere (often called the "left brain"). The reason for this is that there is a "cross-over" of the nervous system below the neck, so your left cerebral hemisphere controls the right side of your body below the neck.
This ?cross over? is not the corpus callosum. The corpus callosum is the largest white matter structure in the mammalian brain. It consists of mostly of contralateral axon projections. It appears as a wide, flat region just ventral (below) the cortex. It is missing in monotremes. The corpus callosum connects the left and right cerebral hemispheres. Most (but certainly not all) communication between regions in different halves of the brain are carried over the corpus callosum.
In the 18th century, the corpus callosum was considered the site of the soul (Maurice Ptito), and in the early 20th it was assigned the mere role of preventing the cerebral hemispheres from collapsing onto each other. It was only in the 1950's that the corpus callosum, in the pioneering work of Myers and Sperry, was attributed the function of transferal of information between the two hemispheres. This was followed by the development, in the early 1960's, of a surgical intervention aimed at reducing the interhemispheric transmission of abnormal electrical discharges in epileptic patients. This involved the sectioning of the corpus callosum and other commissural structures of severe epileptic patients in which drug treatment was ineffective. The study of these patients by Sperry, Gazzaniga, and collaborators have greatly contributed to our knowledge of the functions of this midline structure. Even today the corpus callosum is still the focus interest for many neuroscientists who study interhemispheric communication. Each hemisphere contains neurons which project callosal axons not only to homologous (homotopic) areas in the contralateral hemisphere but also to heterologous (heterotopic) areas. There are approximately 200,000,000 callosal axons in humans! The corpus callosum is undoubtedly the most important commissure to connect the two hemispheres, not only by virtue of its size, but also due to the wealth of its neural connections. It is through these projections that information is shared between the two halves of the brain. Very little is known about the neural signals that pass between the hemispheres, but recent studies have used modern tract tracing techniques to determine precisely the sites of origin and termination of neurons which project across the corpus callosum. Using a retrograde tracer (horseradish peroxidase), Lomber et al. (1994) were able to link the functional divisions of the cerebral cortex to fiber trajectory through the corpus callosum. The motor cortex sends fibers through the rostrum and genu of the corpus callosum. The adjacent somatosensory cortex projects fibers through the anterior half of the corpus callosum whereas axons arising from auditory regions pass through the posterior two-thirds of the corpus callosum and the dorsal splenium. Axons from the limbic cortex also help to form these regions of the corpus callosum. Finally, axons from visual cortices which occupy the greatest single fraction of the cortical mantle pass through the largest portion of the corpus callosum; the fibers are present throughout the splenium and extend well into the body and the anterior portion. Ramifications of the axonal breakdown of the corpus callosum are discussed in out section on new developements.
I guess when you think about it, its really pretty straightforward. I don't know what BuckSpy was thinking...
AM

 

[BCBOY]

 

[tufferthandug]

I once read an article about a hunter that shot a beautiful bull elk (I know its not a mulie but both from the same family) and one side had a huge typical rack on one side and a dinker typical on the other. When they were deboning the animal they had found an arrowhead stuck in one of the bones. If I remember right, it was on the opposite side of the small antler.

 

[Lowlandmulies]

huh!!!

 

[DeanX]

monkey took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[LIK2HNT]

Thanks to everyone who replied with a non smart a$$ reply.
Answermonkey, I will have to read your post again (or maybe a few times) to fully understand it, thank you.

I was hoping to have a picture of this buck on the ground by now. But the heat, rattle snakes, and shifting wind have prevented me from sticking one of these or another large 3x3 with a 4 inch drooper (extra point drooping over his right eye).

I have seen deer with one side that was messed up which I would believe to be caused by damage to the deer or antlers. I have got a couple deer with extra kicker points that I feel would have to be genetic. These deer had no body damage that I could find when I de-boned them.

I will try to post some pictures of some of these in the next few weeks.

Thanks
Bill

 

[BUCKSPY]

"Those damn APES!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Charlton Heston

Maybe I missed on the exact location of the neuro swap, because my paramedic anatomy and physiology class was 12 years ago but the science is sound. I thought it was a basilar brain area thing but the armchair physician I called said corpus. Small potatoes. Point is left brain, right body side below the head. Vice versa. I'll try and dig up a photo of a big buck that I have that demonstrates this.

AskJeevesMonkey-I've seen your other posts and know you can't spell worth a crap so the monologue wasn't original but atleast your "right click on, cut and paste" function works so you did you best to clear up muddy waters. Thanks for that.

Come on Alderman! I know YOU know this armchair biology. ;-)

 

[kilowatt]

Sounds like "answermonkey" is in the Medical field. I make frequent visits to a Chiropractor for lower back adjustments and when my left side of neck is locked up and hard to move, the lower right side of back is the place where I need adjustment.

And vice-versa, the other way too.

If this is the same with antler growth, I DO NOT KNOW but a Biologist probably would have some better knowledge I think.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Brian

 

[answermonkey]

BuckSpy,
I didn't even trust the original authors. I ran everything through MS Word spell checker before submitting that one.
am

 

[answermonkey]

I'm not in the medical field but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

 

[AZbowhntr]

am, oh that is funny.

I was watching one of the hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel and the guys were talking about this same thing. I think they were talking more about the ones with deformed antlers. Like a club on one side or something like that.