Long Range Muzzle Loader

D

dleonard3

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-05 AT 05:10PM (MST)[p]I am happy to report that I had a very successful Muzzle Loader hunt. This buck was feeding slowly as he headed to his bedding area, but he didn't want to stop in any one place for very long before moving on to the next edible morsel. I ranged him at 310 meters and simultaneously got the 10 degree downhill angle from my Slope-Shot stuck to the side of my rangefinder. It didn't appear that he would get any closer so I dialed in the distance, checked my cut chart, and then knocked off one minute for the slope. There was no wind and I had my muzzle loader positioned solidly on my tripod rest, so I pulled back the hammer, steadied up, and squeezed off the shot. Larry, good friend and hunting buddy, was sitting next to me and watching through his binoculars at the shot. He told me that I had hit the buck low in the shoulder. He ran a total of 20 yards, stopped, flipped over backwards and died before I could get my ramrod out for a reload. After examining the buck, I found that the bullet had entered the bucks? chest a couple inches above the point of the elbow, cutting the heart in half, and exited the other side with plenty of remaining energy. Larry told me that he had heard of people accidently killing bucks at long distances with muzzle loaders before, but I was the first he knew of that did it on purpose. All the gizmos in the world won't help if your gun shoots 12? groups, but I have been blessed with a very accurate gun. I also have a great ballistics program to tell me what my bullet will do downrange, and gizmos like my Slope Shot and rangefinder to help me dial in the exact point of impact needed for a clean kill.

Don Leonard
435033f255a60a93.jpg


P.S. The photo is very small, how do you download a bigger photo? I'm limited to 100k file size.
 
Congratulations and power to you, but I would never attempt a shot like that. Muzzleloader seasons are designed to be a "primative weapon" season and we get a special season because of its limitations. If we evolve a muzzleloader to consitently make 310 meter shots, they will take our special season away.

For me and mine, it will remain a short range weapon: open sights and around 100-150 yard max.

Again, congratulations to you. Just not my cup of tea.

For that distance I have a gun to do the job: A 270. Works great.

Nice buck!!!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-05 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]On 7 October, 1777, Timothy Murphy, a rifleman in Morgan's Kentucky Riflemen shot and killed General Simon Fraser of the British army. Murphy was said to have taken the shot at roughly 500 yards.

On 9 May, 1864 a confederate sniper took what was to be considered an incredible shot at that time. During the Battle of Spotsylvania, Sgt. Grace of the 4th Georgia Infantry, took aim and fired at a distant Union officer. Grace was using a British Whitworth target rifle and the distance was 800 yards. Grace's target, Major General John Sedgwick, fell dead after uttering the words "Why, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...". Sedgwick's death resulted in a delay of the Union attack which in turn gave General Robert E. Lee the edge he needed to win the day at Spotsylvania

During Red River Campaign in 1864. Using a heavy, 50-caliber muzzle-loading rifle - one authority states it weighed between 23 to 27kg - fitted with a 24x scope, Metcalf fired at and hit a Confederate officer at a distance of 1666 meters. The officer was standing in front of a tent on a distant hillside and Metcalf had previously established the range with a surveyor's transit. The bullet took approximately five seconds to reach the target.

The day of June 27, 1874 found Billy Dixon, 26 other men, and one woman fighting for their lives against a party of Kiowa and Comanche warriors, the number of which is reported to be between 250 and 500 strong, depending upon the account. As the war party was forming for an attack on the people holed up at Adobe Walls, Billy Dixon took a shot at a mounted Kiowa warrior, knocking him off of his horse at a distance that was later confirmed by a surveyor to be 1538 yards.


That "short range" is what makes a black powder rifle primative is false.


-DallanC
 
"That "short range" is what makes a black powder rifle primative is false."

I respectfully dissagree partially. There are surely people that can shoot amazing distances with any weapon, but those are few and far between. That a blackpowder weapon in the hands of most IS a short range weapon is one big reason why we have special muzzy seasons. Just watch how long those special seasons last if people can consistently take animals out to 300 yards.

Sure there are guys that can take animals out to 100 yards and beyond with a bow, but if everyone did it, do you think they would have long, early bow seasons?

Again, power to the person that can do it with a muzzleloader, but I am not going to pursue shooting my muzzy at longer distances.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Tex,
Nobody cares how far you choose to shoot or not to shoot. That is not what this post is about. This post is about Don's successful hunt. Leave it at that. I personally know Don and congrats to him on making a good shot that he was confident in, and, had the right equipment to make that shot with.
 
Billy Dixon was using a Sharps "Big .50" --although the range was long, shooters at the "Quigley Buffalo Rifle Match" (Forsyth, MT) deal with some of these extremes, the closest target in the match being around 380 yards and shot off-hand, the longest around 800+ (w/sticks). Iron sights. Now that's shootin'!

Roger that about the Whitworth. Great rifle and currently sold by Euroarms. 200-300 yards with THAT gun is very doable with iron sights. Can't beat those hexagonal bullets. ...My personal FAVORITE! Yeah, if a platoon of marksmen armed with Whitworths took to the hills, the DWR would be reconsidering the season...Har!

But alas, most guys go for the in-line stuff...
 
>Tex,
>Nobody cares how far you choose
>to shoot or not to
>shoot. That is not what
>this post is about. This
>post is about Don's successful
>hunt. Leave it at that.
>I personally know Don and
>congrats to him on making
>a good shot that he
>was confident in, and, had
>the right equipment to make
>that shot with.


I dissagree. I think there are a lot of people who care. There are lots of impressionable kids that read these posts and may think: "Hey, I want to do that too". There are a lot of people out there that want to keep the muzzy a primative season with a limited range and therefore limited harvest, and therefore enjoy a special limited season.

I have been very respectful of Don and congratulated him several times on a great buck. I never said he was wrong or unethical to take the shot. The skill and time at the range required to make that shot is phenonomal. Very few people could pick up his gun and make that shot. As I said, power to HIM. For the impressionables out there, I want them to know that there are other points of view and why.



txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I figured that my post would generate a little emotion in some traditionalists. I have to agree with ALL of these replies. This was an extremely long shot, and I would NOT recommend anyone else attempt a shot like this unless they have 110% confidence in their ability to make the shot. And I mean REAL confidence, not "I think I can" confidence. You need to test yourself and your equipment frequently and regularly to develope this sense of true confidence. I have spent years (literally) trying to find the "perfect" gun that was capable of shooting with the degree of accuracy I needed. I have burned up what seems like a ton of powder and 5 tons of bullets in my testing in an attempt to find the most accurate and consistent combinations. I have run into one problem after another with nearly every combination of gun, powder, bullet, and ignition systems. About two years ago, I purchased a T/C Encore 50 cal and proceeded to run through my testing to see what it was capable of. I started with two triple 7 pellets, then tried three (which is NOT recommended by the manufacturer) with a T/C Shockwave 300 gr. bullet/sabot and Winchester 209 primers. I got fairly good accuracy that averaged around 1 1/2" groups at 100 meters. The velocity averaged around 2110 fps, but there seemed to be a little too much variation in velocity from shot to shot and the groups seemed to be more vertical than horizontal so I felt that I might be able to get more consistency using a little colder primer. I tried CCI's primers and WOW!!!! The average group size went down to around an inch and there was nearly no fouling in the bore. Just a light crud ring where the pellets burned. Triple 7 fouling is completely water soluable, so after every shot I scrubbed the bore with both sides of a damp patch, followed by both sides of a dry patch. Then I scrubbed the bore with a patch saturated with Bore Butter. I do this consistently so every shot comes from a clean barrel. After a little more testing, I decided that I had found the right combination that had exceptional accuracy and phenominal consistency. Then I went on to develop a bullet drop compensator for my scope. I won't bore you with the details, but I will tell you that I tested this ALOT to make sure that it worked as I expected it to. You may have been wondering why I called out the distance in meters instead of yards. I have a rino GPS/Radio that I use to help me find downed game after a long shot. It has a digital compass and is capable of locking in a bearing and projecting a waypoint to where the deer was - if I enter the distance. The GPS can be set to kilometers or miles. My rangefinder can be set to meters or yards. I didn't want to do any math in the field, so I set everything up metric. When my rangefinder says 310 meters, I can enter the distance as 0.310 kilometers. I sit on a good vantage point and use 20x80 giant binoculars mounted on a tripod to spot deer and watch them until they bed down or stop to feed in one place. I use a GPS, a laser range finder, and a slope indicator. All of this may seem like a techno geek gone nuts, but believe me, it is completely out of desperation that I have gone to this extreme in my hunting techniques. I have been bow hunting, muzzle loader hunting, and rifle hunting the traditional way for 26 years and every big buck I have seen has escaped my attempts. The buck I harvested this year is the biggest buck I have ever shot and I am very proud of him. I have a great respect for big, old bucks. I have seen very few, tried for even fewer, and would love to harvest at least one before I die of old age. As long as the law allows my way of hunting, I will keep trying until I am successful. If the law changes, I will adapt and find the best way to compensate. I am not making a scratch in the buck population in my area by using these methods, but I finally got a decent buck. Anyone who suggests that a muzzle loader shouldn't be shot beyond 100 yards may as well be making the statement that a man should not travel to the moon unless he can do it using a big sling shot. There will always be people like me that are looking for an improvement or a better way, but I would like to go on record as saying this: If you can't make the shot, don't take the shot. I welcome any and all opinions.
 
Don't waste yourtime explaining yourself Don.

TX- if your that jealous man, just don't post anything. Most of us here don't need you spouting off about ethics and muddying up an otherwise great post. Keep your negative comments to yourself next time if at all possible.
 
Just when are you going to improve your hunting skills? I'm impressed with your shooting skills. I kinda go the opposite I like to see how close I can get up on an animal. I once poked a doe in the a$$ with my rifle muzzle, she about kicked the sheet outa me as we were both surprised. To me tracking and stalking deer is what makes the hunt exciting. I like to see their eyelashes when I drop the hammer.
To each his own and thats what makes this board exciting to read.
driftersifter
 
>Just when are you going to
>improve your hunting skills?
>I'm impressed with your shooting
>skills. I kinda go
>the opposite I like to
>see how close I can
>get up on an animal.
> I once poked a
>doe in the a$$ with
>my rifle muzzle, she about
>kicked the sheet outa me
>as we were both surprised.
> To me tracking and
>stalking deer is what makes
>the hunt exciting. I
>like to see their eyelashes
>when I drop the hammer.
>
> To each his
>own and thats what makes
>this board exciting to read.
>
>
>
> driftersifter
>

I completely agree with you on the close encounters. I have had a few over the years while attempting to sneek up on them. Almost all of the animals I've taken were at close range. I am a Bowhunter at heart, so 100 yards is WAY out there and completely unethical with a bow. The deer simply has way too much time to move around before the arrow gets there, and we won't even talk about the wind, branches, jumping the string, canting the bow, etc, etc, etc. Like I said, this long range muzzle loader thing is something I have just recently tried because I am tired of watching the bigger bucks run over the ridge to get shot by someone else after I blow the stalk. I wouldn't attempt a shot unless I knew I could take the animal cleanly. If I could just get one "MONSTER", I could go back to the old ways again. I might not, but I could.
 
>Don't waste yourtime explaining yourself Don.
>
>
>TX- if your that jealous
>man, just don't post anything.
> Most of us here
>don't need you spouting off
>about ethics and muddying up
>an otherwise great post.
>Keep your negative comments to
>yourself next time if at
>all possible.

Sorry Canoe, but there is no jealousy involved. After all, I can shoot that far accurately, just not with a muzzleloader. Could I ever obtain the accuracy that Don obviously perfected? Possibly, but I choose not to and hope others do the same. For the record, I hunt with a 54 caliber T/C renegade (sidelock/percussion) and a T/C 50 cal. Omega. So I am not a traditionalist in the strictest sense. I also don't see my post as "spouting off about ethics". Just a differing point of view as part of a constuctive disscussion.

You may see my posts as "negative" comments, but I don't. They have all been respectful with no charges of being unethical. IF the post had just been about shooting the buck with a muzzy, there would have only been accolades. However, he brought up fact that he killed it at very long range. I feel this opens the door to a disscussion about that subject. I think he pretty much knew he was opening the door.

Anyway Don: Welcome to Monstermulies. Glad to have you. Look forward to agreeing and dissagreeing with you in the future!


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>>
I am a
>Bowhunter at heart, so 100
>yards is WAY out there
>and completely unethical with a
>bow. The deer simply
>has way too much time
>to move around before the
>arrow gets there, and we
>won't even talk about the
>wind, branches, jumping the string,
>canting the bow, etc, etc,
>etc.

Well Don, a 100 yard shot with a bow would certainly be an unethical shot for me and 99.9% of others, but I know of a guy in a wheel chair that shoots a heavy poundage bow many hours daily that consistently takes game at 100 yards. Sure there are lots of things that could go wrong, but so are there with all weapons. And I have seen videos of deer jumping the string at 20 yards enough that the arrow (which was completly on tract for a kill shot) misses completely. With a super quiet bow, there is probably less chance of that at 100 yards than 20 yards of jumping the string. How can you say you can extend your range ethically, but he is unethical? I grant you, extending a bow range is slightly more black and white, but not totally.

Hope you take this in the spirit it is being posted: a friendly conversation between some hunters that tend to dissagree on some points. I suspect that we agree on probably 99% plus and would enjoy swaping stories around the campfire.

As I said in my post above in reply to Canoe's post: Welome to MM. Glad to have you and good hunting. You have my envy in your shooting ability, but not my jeolousy.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Conratulations on a fine buck and a nice shot. I just always thought of a muzzle loader as a close encounter hunt. My hunting partner has a white system muzzle loader that shoots 300 yards easily but I think my state (Washington) made them illegal to hunt with during the muzzle loading season...Again, great buck.
 
Awesome buck. What does he score? and what's the spread? Congrats on a fine animal.
 
>Awesome buck. What does he score?
>and what's the spread? Congrats
>on a fine animal.

I'm having this one European mounted on an oak pedistal plaque, and I haven't gotten it back yet. I haven't put a tape to it yet, but Troy Truman (taxidermist extrordinare) rough guessed it at around 150 B&C. I would guess the spread at around 22". This buck was hanging out with a little forkie that was alot smaller than him. In fact, the forkie made mine look BIG. I have to admit, there was a little surge of disappointment as I walked up to him and I swear, I heard the sound of an air leak as the ground shrinkage effect took hold. The disappointment has faded substantially and I am now very happy to have gotten him. He's just big enough to be called "my biggest", but not so big that I won't be able to find a bigger one in the future. I guess that makes him the perfect buck for me.
 
I've been thinking about this 100 yard bow shot thing, and I'm afraid that you may have me on this one. I would be a hipocrit if I said that my long range muzzle loader shot was any different from a 100 yard bow shot. They do have similar (if not identical) situations that could arise that are out of our control. Our own personally set boundaries should kick in to eliminate most, if not all, of these situations. If it's windy, don't shoot. If the animal is alert to your presence, don't shoot. If there are branches anywhere near the flight path of your projectile, don't shoot. If the animal is moving and you're not certain that he will be in the correct position when your projectile gets there, don't shoot. If you don't know that you will hit him exactly where you are aiming, don't shoot. We should all have our own personally set boundaries based on our own knowledge and experiences as well as others around us. I hope that I don't appear to be reckless, or what some might consider a "bad egg" or "slob" hunter. There are plenty of those around. I care about the animals I hunt as well as the image of hunting in general. I don't want to cause the DWR to impose any more restrictions on hunters. But as long as I am within the boundaries of the law, as well as my own personally defined ethical boundaries, I will be O.K. at least most of the time. This has been a revealing conversation and I look forward to many more to come.
 
I was using a T/C Encore 50 cal. with a 1x Simmons scope. 310 meters is exactly 339.0201 yards. I always figure around 10% more for meters, so 500 meters would be around 550 yards (its actually 546.8 but that's pretty close).
 
Wow! Great stories. I'm glad I didn't have to do that. Shooting people would put a whole bunch more pressure on and I'm afraid I would fail miserably.
 
Don, I applaud your ethics and the skill required to take that ethical shot at the buck you took.

And sorry to hear that you had any dissapointment in taking your buck. Hope it was only momentary when you saw he wasn't quite as big as you thought. He is a good buck in anyone's book. Don't be intimadated by the title of this website or some of the bucks posted or attitudes you hear ("Decided to let him walk, he was only a 160 buck!). You took a great trophy and I will dissagree strenously with anyone who argues otherwise. Also, don't get caught up with the "how much does he score mentality." One of my greatest trophies, and up there among my best hunting memories is the first time I hunted with a muzzleloader and took a cow elk. Certainly a great trophy!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Nice deer!!

Excellent shot!! I for one am amazed there are people that can focus all their skill into shots like that-especially with a ML. If it has to be loaded down the muzzle before every shot who am I to judge the ethics when in the right hands.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom