Can we do better in Utah?

AspenAdventures

AspenAdventures

Very Active Member
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Can we do a better job of managin our deer here in Utah?

The answer to this question is a resounding YES. But I have another question for you. Why dont we copy some of the things other states are doing that are working?

In Wyoming this last season I was astonished to see the biologist for the area ride up to my camp and check my paperwork. He updated us on the requirements of the area and the unit boundaries. He gave us a few good tips and was on his way to make a 10 mile round trip. All of the other hunters we saw were also checked. No one would have dared poach an animal because he could have come back at any time.

In Colorado they have 100 or more management units and it has really helped the deer population. In Utah we have 5 units. This is crazy!

Why dont we follow the other states lead and really start to manage these units. Why dont our Conservation Officers get out on horse back to check peoples camps and tags?
 
How about this--

As long as you have management decisions being made and dictated by license sells, you will never manage mule deer the way they ought to be.

As long as you have SFW that around that shoots down every good change the UDWR proposes you will never manage mule deer the way they ought to be.

As long as you have an agency that thinks that we are living in the 60's when it comes to family style hunts you will never manage mule deer the way they ought to be.

As long as you set permit numbers in and decide what to hunt and when in NovemberDecember you will never manage mule deer they way they ought to be.

As long as you sell at least 4 times the number of permits that there are buck deer (see #1) you will never manage mule deer they way they ought to be.

As long as you only try something for 1-3 years to see if it works you will never manage mule deer they way they ought to be.

I agree we need change--change would be good it would be good to try and look at some different management sineros but do you see what we have to overcome. By the time we figure out how to overcome all of the above there won't be any mule deer left in Utah.

My thoughts...

Todd Black
BTO
 
Without question.

I usually hunt 3 to 4 states every year for mule deer including Utah. Utah's current management plan isn't cutting it anymore. Sure there are a few great bucks (such as Browtine's) harvested on the general hunts. But we're talking one great buck out of thousands of hunters.

Utah needs to manage the units on a smaller basis. I'm not even sure that we need to cut back on the total number of tags, but we need to manage for smaller units. If Utah did manage for smaller units we could avoid overharvesting certain areas (such as the winter ranges like last year).

The reality of it is, until SFW makes it a priority it won't happen.

I've said it before, Colorado is leading the way when it comes to mule deer. Utah should take a good hard look at what Colorado has accomplished over the past 10 years. And this has been done w/o huge numbers of conservation tags, banquets, teh back scratching, etc.... They had the balls to do what needed to be done and now they're growing the biggest muleys that have been consistently harvested in any state the past 20 years.

Sure Colorado has problems as does Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, and the rest of them. But the sad reality of it is that Utah has the potential to be the best if not second best muley producing state.

As it stands now, I'll continue to gladly hunt out of Utah and hope that some changes are made sooner than later.
 
You have both hit it on the head. Utah does have some good bucks and I saw a few this year but you are tright Prism, Colorado has figured it out. I hunted there two years ago and I was amazed. Needless to say I too apply for out of state tags because they have better bucks. Nevada has great mulies now and their habitat quality is not as nice as what we have here in Utah. We really need some changes. Here are a few ideas you have come up with and some new ones as well.

Smaller units for management.

Decide the # of tags for a unit in January after the count has been done on the winter range.

Manage some units for quality and others for quantity.

Get the coonservation officers on horseback and in the back country during the hunts to deter poaching.

Agressively prosecute party hunting trash.

Get rid of all of the banquet tags.

Double the price of resident tags.

Cut the ammount of resident tags in the new smaller units until management objectives are met.

Thanks for the replys and keep this going. Hopefully we can get our deer herds back. I am with Prism when he says we could be the number 2 state in quality bucks. We have the Paunsaugaunt, Uintahs, Henrys, Booke Cliffs, Wasatch Front, Chalk Creek area, Logan Canyon area, the area above Cedar City, Mt. Dutton, Monroe area, etc......

It is time to manage our herds differently. We are the last state to do so. Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Montana have done so. Is it possible the DWR is a little late on this one?
 
Aspen
Ditto to everything that has been said. Prism nailed it with the CO comparsion. In 1999 CO went to a micromanagement program and in the last 3 years hunters have been reaping the benifits. The only way Utah will ever see the potential CO is seeing is by implementing a micromanagement program. Unfortunately, Utah would have to cut tags and therfore revenue, and I don't think this will happen any time soon. Like others, I will continue to hunt out of state and hope that Utah can see the light before it's to late.

Mike
 
>Can we do a better job
>of managin our deer here
>in Utah?
>
>The answer to this question is
>a resounding YES. But
>I have another question for
>you. Why dont we
>copy some of the things
>other states are doing that
>are working?
>
>In Wyoming this last season I
>was astonished to see the
>biologist for the area ride
>up to my camp and
>check my paperwork. He
>updated us on the requirements
>of the area and the
>unit boundaries. He gave
>us a few good tips
>and was on his way
>to make a 10 mile
>round trip. All of
>the other hunters we saw
>were also checked. No
>one would have dared poach
>an animal because he could
>have come back at any
>time.
>
>In Colorado they have 100 or
>more management units and it
>has really helped the deer
>population. In Utah we
>have 5 units. This
>is crazy!
>
>Why dont we follow the other
>states lead and really start
>to manage these units.
>Why dont our Conservation Officers
>get out on horse back
>to check peoples camps and
>tags?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-05 AT 12:06PM (MST)[p]I saw a lot more/better deer in Northern Utah in 2000-2005 than I did in 1995-2000. If we get the water, the herd will continue to improve. DWR has cut tags, increased prices, cut dates, changed dates, created units, and catered to the archers over the past 10 years. I heard a lot of shooting this year and how quickly we forget that 2004 was off the charts. No more changes thank you. Lets wait and see what happens.
 
Sorry about the screw up before!!
I usually don't chime in, but this one I can not stay out of. I understand that there will always be something to complain about when it comes to managing a state deer herd, but I agree with what most have said. It feels like every few years there is a change to help silence some pressure that may being felt by the DWR. So there is always some change that is supposed to help with the problem. Then a few years later it is changed back to the same way it was before or very similar. I think these are just bandaids that are being applied to a huge gaping wound. Lets get to the root of the problems. The only way for this to be done is to micromanage. If a unit has problems, then it can be managed to take care of that problem in a few years, not a few decades. Where is the ball being dropped? If it is just about the money, then I will give the DWR my money every year for the price of my tag if I do not draw on my unit. I think there are a lot of people out there that would do the same if we at least saw some progress in the heards. I just think there is a ball being dropped by someone. I am to blame just as much, because I don't do anything about it. I've been to the RAC meetings and given my two cents, but to no avail. I can gripe on these websites too. Maybe we need to get a media member involved to do an article and to show some poles. Most of the guys I know are willing to do it and have voiced their opinions at the RAC's. I don't know. Just a bit frustrated. Seems like we are all leaving to other places when we have the protential to be an awesome deer state.

Thanks for listening!
 
I'm all for micro-managing units but the first step better be to force archery into units instead of being excluded and allowed to be state wide.
 
I tend to agree with some of what has been said. The problem I have with some of the smaller units talk is that Utah is very different than Colorado. Colorado receives more precipitation, has better winter ranges. Utah has been in the worst drought in 500 years, Colorado did not have the same weather pattern.

Utah is more like Nevada. They have High Mountains with dry winter ranges. They give out very limited tags, have a high success rate, yet their herd is not growing.

The problem isn't hunters shooting too many bucks, rather it is that the Doe population is not growing. There are enough bucks to breed the doe population. So where are all those fawns going?? Predators, car collisions, poaching, winter mortality, net fences, and aliens.?.

I don't think there is a silver bullet. Wyoming is suffering also, and they are going through a rough drought like Utah did. Give it a few years and hopefully we will see a rebound.
 
packout

It's true that CO has a little better habitat for mule deer, however, they also have harder winters, yet CO deer hunting is better than its ever been. Co was also affected by the drought, maybe not to the extent that Utah was, but they were definately affected.
Ten years ago, CO deer herds were not in real good shape. It wasn't until they implemeneted a micro management plan back in the 90's that the herd took a turn for the good.
I do agree that there are other factors, but Utah flat out issues way to many tags for amount of deer we have.

Mike
 
smellybuck

DWR has not cut tags or created new units. We still have the same 5 units and the same 97000 tags. Yes I believe cutting the rifle season dates has helped a little. As for all the shooting, that just means a lot of 2 points are hitting the ground.2004 was a banner year for big bucks, but there was also 1-2 feet of snow dumped in the mountains a week before the hunt. Utah use to be one of the top states for trophy mule deer. Not anymore.

Mike
 
Define better? Hopefully not once in a lifetime like our joke of a elk management plan.

Point restrictions sure.

Having to pay more than $5 stinkin dollars when applying for limited entry hunts. Like buying a deer or elk licence to hunt similar to Idaho so everyone in the country can't keep rackin up bonus points, now your talking.

Limiting Archery hunters to one area, like they have a real impact on anything, try again.

My 2 cents
 
South Slope, I like your take on it as well. We definately dont want to wait like we are for our elk tags. You are right, we should raise the price of earning points to the point that not everyone will find it attractive.

I agree with the statement above that we should limit the archery hunters draw areas as well. Nice job on some great creative thinking you guys. I hope someone with some clout will notice the sincere thoughts posted on sites like this.

AA

"One nation uder God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Let's hope the DWR keeps the 5 Day Hunt structure for the southern region. IMO, that's a reasonable start in that region.

My camp saw lots of deer, mostly does with twin fawns, and small bucks. We never saw a mature buck during our hunt. We hunted in the sands in the Harris Mountain area. This region used to be a legendary big buck area. It has all the conditions to hold lots of deer, pleanty of feed, decent water sources, and plenty of varied terrain for cover. It's a shame there isn't more deer in an older age class in the area.

I'd like to see more hunters actually get out and hike around a bit and get off the ATV's. The quad activity in that area reminds me of the Glamis Dunes!
 
Mike,
You must be hunting Southern Utah exclusively because that area has decreased significantly over the past 5 years. I hunted the Northern Region for the first time in 1995. I see a lot more deer now than I did then. 2004 was good because there was snow + there were a lot of nice deer. If the deer were not there, they would have not been killed. A lot of shooting doesn't necessarily mean a lot of 2 points were hitting the ground. I didn't see one 2 point packed out. I saw a couple that were passed up by atleast 4 different people. Maybe there were, but I didn't see it. I respect your opinions, & I enjoy reading most of your posts. I think you have a lot of good things to say, but I just hate seeing more controls on people. Someone mentioned that the state manages for a family hunt. I think the family hunt has been destroyed and can't see any evidence of current management for family hunts. I believe a focus on habitat management is superior than hunter management. I'd like to see atleast 10% of our big game license $'s used directly on big game habitat. I'd like to see dedicated hunter projects have 100% focus on big game habitat - not fish, not fences, not prairie dogs. I finally have a system figured out that I can live with. I'd hate for the DWR to change everything up again. Manage the habitat first, find ways of obtaining land for the general public instead of giving our best lands up to CWMU's and special units.
 
just something to think about... like what packout said the biggest thing for deer to move forward is keeping them alive when it matters most the (winter/keeping fawns alive).
my only question about micromanagement is with having 5 management units in the state there are big bucks in all the units right? if it is broken up in to smaller units wouldn't that make more pressure in a certain areas (more people apt to hunt your honey hole?) just something to think about...
 
7remmag, you have a valid point. The way that is dealt with in Colorado is that if a unit is getting more pressure then that unit will be harder to draw a tag for. Much like the boook Cliffs are now or the Henry mountain area. It turns the whole state into a limited entry hunt with some tags easier to draw than others.

AA

"One nation uder God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Aspen,

Thats an excellent idea. How much was you thinking of raising the price for points? Maybe enough to eliminate the all the average hunters????

That idea is ridiculous at best. Sounds like a monopoly or something.

I think better managemant needs to take place. And I am not sure of what all the right answers are. But to me increasing fees to a point of eliminating the application pool is a recipe for disaster.

Ok, I will quit ranting.
 
I don't come out to post much, anymore. This thread strikes a chord. Got to put out some food for thought. Likely my opinion will anger a few, that's not the intent, but I know it will haoppen. Think about the following, I think it's sound wisdom from an old fellow that doesn't hunt anymore. I asked him why he thought it was that Utah's deer herd wouldn't/couldn't come back. He didn't even have to think about this much. His answer was simple and straight forward: TOO MUCH PRESSURE. After I asked how he figured, I have to say I must agree. I believe he said something like "Hell, you can't hunt deer from the middle of August to the end of October, and have anything!" He said the last time that we really had deer, his opinion, was late 60's and early 70's. They hunted 14 days I believe- rifle, and the arcery was about as long and that was it. Done, no more hunting. There was no muzzleloader hunt.

I'm sure someone can help me out with the exact number of days back then. But you get the idea. Now couple this with the fact that most guys packed around an open site rifle, Likely a 30-30 or 32 special,You saw a lot of bucks you didn't even go after! Guys flippin sticks used cedar shaft arrows and recurves. Now days the archery tackle is really lethal. Muzzle loaders approach 30-30 ballistics. Rifles are space age compared (last buck I killed ranged over 400 yds) to what was back then. DON"T get me wrong I'm not saying any of this is bad to have. I want the best equipment I can afford,too. But--->

Think about it, we are far more efficient in the ability to harvest. The General season Archery went from Aug. 20 to Sept. 16th. General Muzz from Sept 28 to Oct 06. Rifle in my region went from Oct 22- 26. After this being the 2nd year in a row of not even seeing a buck!( I don't go after two pointers, and don't count em either!) I'm not afraid to put out this idea.

Now I'm really going to piss of the Archery hunters -They have way to much of their own way. Put them back in regions, no more state wide crap. Take away half their hunt time. The old problem of rifle hunters swarming hot spots has transferred to archery hunters doing the same. Now the muzzleoader: Make the muzzle loader hunt a true primitive weapon hunt. Side hammers and flintlocks only. Open sights no scoped muzzle loaders. No pellets, etc! Now the rifle. If it has to be a three day hunt, so be it. Now the D H ers. I'm not one, but if I had the days I just mentioned to scout a big buck. Hunt him with a high tech bow, then a high tech muzzleloader, then a high tech rifle, have I not increased the opportunity to harvest that big guy exponentially!? Can the D. H. progam! Last thing -make it ILLEGAL to traffic any antlers that are not sheds. No if ands or buts. Plain against the law!

There is simply to much pressure on the resource. If you can't stand to park that high tech gear and let it sit, go shoot some coyotes! God knows there are enought of them!!!

Let the pissin and moanin begin.......you all know I'm more right, and so is that old feller that got me started, than any of your justification can overcome.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-05 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]The last time I looked into applying for a permit in Idaho I had to purchase a $125.00 non-resident hunting licence before applying. It basically covers half of the permit fee if you intend to hunt the state anyway. The fee was much lower for residents as it was probably based on a percent of the licence costs. I would like to hunt Idaho but only intended to go to the state if I drew a limited unit, needless to say I have no Idaho bonus points. With our Current $5 to apply and no money down unless you draw, everyone in the country can continue to accumulate bonus points for $5 per year. The state could actually start seeing revenue from the applications (deer and elk) if they were to capitalize on the efforts of their managment.

Basically if you are going to hunt Utah anyway you pay nothing extra.
 
ground,

You hit this one on the head. You have my vote for implementing a deer plan.

You have got to be kidding me southslope. Are you telling me archers do not affect the deer herd? Is that what I read from you? You cannot convince me ever that 16,000 bow hunters hunting from August to December do not affect anything.

Why is the LE elk a joke? Because slammer bulls roam the hills and YOU cannot hunt them right now? You do not want to wait your turn or hit the luck of the draw? If they increase tags and shoot out quality then the hunters will ask why the DWR is so stupid for not micromanaging. Have big bulls and that isn't good either.

I think our deer herd is getting better. Now granted I have to ride a horse for 2 hours, but hey, go where you have to go. Can it get better? Absolutely, but sacrifices will have to be made by rifle, bow, and muzz hunters. (See groundshrink plan)

So what we have is another example of tiny deer and monster elk, every hunter in Utah wants to go each year hunting 200" deer and 400" bulls, we need the entire state to roam, and if I bow hunt I have never killed a thing. I rifle hunt and I sure as hell kill stuff. By the looks of the photos here archery guys make an impact also.

Did I mention you had this nailed groundshrink? Go take over the head of SFW and MDF.
 
groundshrink

YOUR OLD TIME BUDDY IS RIGHT!!!

I'VE ALWAYS SAID YOU CAN'T PUT THAT MUCH PRESSURE ON OUR HERDS!!!

I'M GONNA START THE PI$$IN MATCH WITH YOU RIGHT NOW!!!

HOW MANY 1 X POWER SCOPES YOU EVER LOOKED THROUGH???

NOW I'M BLIND IN ONE EYE & CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING OUT OF THE OTHER EYE BUT I CAN STILL SEE BY FAR BETTER WITH MY TWO WORE OUT EYES THAN I CAN THROUGH A 1 X SCOPE!!!

THIS IS LIKE TECHNOLOGY IN REVERSE!!!

YA I KNOW OTHER STATES ALLOW 4 X SCOPES BUT HERE IN UTARD THE WHOPPING 1 X SCOPE IS A JOKE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WILLING TO PARK MINE IF YOU CAN GET EVERYBODYELSE TO PARK THEIRS,INCLUDING THEIR FRICKEN LOWLIFE WHEELERS,WHATS YOUR BUDDIES TAKE ON WHEELERS,I'LL BET HE DIDN'T HAVE TO CONTEND WITH ANY OF THEM TARD-MOBILES BACK THEN???
 
TARD-MOBILES? :)

You bring up a good point bess. Ban them! Outlaw them! Instead of Utards putting in with plastic and only $5 an animal, Honda needs to quit offering TARD-MOBILES for zero money down and no interest until 2012! The world was a better place before the TARD-MOBILE!
 
WELL

I'VE GOT ONE GUY ON MY SIDE (ktc)!!!

NOW IF 96,999 OTHER RESIDENTS WOULD AGREE WITH THE PLAN WE MIGHT GET SOMETHING GOING HERE!!!

FACE IT,WITHOUT SOME MAJOR,I SAID MAJOR CHANGES THE DEER HERDS ARE NOT GOING TO REBOUND!!!

I'VE SAID IT FOR YEARS BUT NOBODY LISTENS,THERE ARE A COUPLE A DOZEN REASONS WHY MULE DEER HERDS ARE IN TROUBLE!!!

IT'S MORE THAN JUST ONE THING,THE DWR BETTER PULL THERE HEADS OUT & COWBOY-UP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT COULD WRITE A BIBLE OF WHY THE MULE DEER HUNTING SUCKS IN GENERAL AREA'S IN THIS STATE!!!
 
Ktc said: "Honda needs to quit offering TARD-MOBILES for zero money down and no interest until 2012!"

That is the funniest thing I have heard on here!!!

The only bobcat who can't come up with a better line!!!!!!!
 
Come hunt in the non-northern units and your perspective on the need for change will surely overwhelm you! It needs to change or there won't be any deer to hunt the South East.

Change is needed!
 
Time for some political pressure. Take a look at the DWR board and see who is on it. Some of these folks being appointed shouldn't even be on the board as they are educators, not out doors men, not ranchers, not biologists, etc. Many of them know squat about the very things they are put in control of to manage. That alone says a lot about the state of the heards in Utah.
 
Form a political organization and put pressure on the board or write the board members:

'[email protected]';'[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'

This is what I wrote them this past Sunday:

Dear Mr. Bowns,



My family has been hunting and living in the South Eastern region of the state for over 30 plus years. My Dad a native to Moab Utah, born and raised.



My folks and sisters still reside in the state and I visit several times each year.



Over the course of the past 28 years I have hunted the Moab, Utah the region almost every year. I have had the pleasure of hunting the LaSals, Browns Hole, Nine Mile, Seven Mile, Fisher Mesa, Andy?s Mesa, and Fisher Valley to name a few specific areas.



Each and every year it seems as though the Deer herd is in a constant decline yet the state and wildlife management resources do little to help the herd recover. In addition the state and management resources make the hunting seasons shorter and shorter and at times deliberately make the success opportunities minimal. Most of the state?s focus seems to be on the Northern part of the state and the Wasatch region.



When will the state start to recognize the specifics needs for the south eastern portion of the state to help its Deer herd recover and prosper. In the 28 years I have hunted I have seen the state do little to help out the Deer populations. Many programs launched in other states like Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana could be studied, embraced, launched, and instituted in an effort to help the herds recover. Instead the state constantly turns a blind eye to the problem and refuses to recognize the constant state of decline.



Many of the things the state could be doing they do not embrace:



Working with local, state, and federal agencies to increase habitat, food, water sheds, and shelter.
Work with local ranchers and land owners to develop better food sources, habitat and water sheds.
Granting back sheep and cattle grazing rights. Sheep and cattle grazers help maintain the land, kill off excess predators, and make the land more habitable for Deer and Elk.
Reduce the number of professional guides and guided hunts.
Work with ranchers and land owners to open up private property for public hunting given they work with state programs to increase and make better Deer and Elk habitat.
Institute programs to help reduce natural Deer and Elk predators that tend to thrive and limit Deer Herd populations.


Additionally it would be nice to see the state resources make hunting more fun and more rewarding. During this past hunting season I hunted hard for the full 5 days of the hunt. The conditions were not good for harvesting a good trophy mule deer. The hunt was deliberately calendared during the full moon cycle. Placed in early October well before any rutting behaviors would take place. Additionally behind every rock and tree lied a hunter in wait. During my hunt I saw more hunters, campers, ATVs, and trucks than I saw Deer even in very remote places off the beaten trail. Roads are not well maintained making passage in many areas virtually impossible. When I finally did get away from the hunting brigades I did see a lot of does many carrying twin fawns. While this is encouraging news for upcoming years; I would much rather see the state follow the following guidelines:



Close areas that need time to recover.
Make areas that need additional help trophy hunts perhaps 4 points (4x4) or better.
Offer permitted management hunts to take out Deer not producing quality racks.
Limit the number of tags dramatically while increasing the likely hood for success.
Move seasons to a time when success would be optimal (weather, rut, moon). At least make the hunt enjoyable for those that are fortunate enough to draw a tag.
Work with local ranchers and land owners to increase and better habitat.
Develop and support programs to reduce natural predators.
Deploy the world?s best practices when it comes to Deer management and make Utah a state to love for its management programs as opposed to a state that all mock and make fun of for their deplorable reputation when it comes to big game management.


Regards,





Norman B Taylor Jr.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-05 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]Norman,
I like your ideas regarding public land, habitat, and working with landowners. I also liked how you addressed that the DWR deliberately tries to decrease success. In fact one of their objectives in the mule deer management plan is "to support programs that will provide incetives to reduce harvest while maintaining opportunity."

You seemed a little misinformed on two things though. (1) The rifle hunt is not deliberately set to avoid moon phases and weather. It starts the closest Saturday to Oct 20th regardless of snow or the moon. That is wisely set by the legislature & the division has no say in the matter. That is how it has been for as long as you have been hunting Utah. (2) You seemed to imply there are more deer hunters now. There are no more hunters now than when you started hunting - in fact there is about half.

Give back to the land, improve the habitat, don't exploit the resource, and let the herds do what they will.
 
It somewhat amazes me that so many hunters neglect one obvious fact: We are only shooting BUCKS. We are not shooting the doe herd. If there are enough bucks to breed the doe population then HOW will reducing Buck permits increase the overall herd?

The problem is not overharvest of bucks. It just plain IS NOT THE PROBLEM. (going bess on you guys) There are GREAT Doe : Fawn ratios, over 70 per 100. That means enough bucks are surviving the hunts and breeding those doe. It only takes around 6 bucks per 100 doe to breed the doe population, (no I am not advocating such a low number), we have 15 per 100.

The problem with Utah's deer herd is with the doe population. Where are all those doe fawns going??? Predators, CHANGE IN HABITATS over the past 30 years, hit by cars, starvation, etc???? Find why those doe fawns are not surviving to produce more young doe and buck fawns and you will solve the mystery of why Utah's (and Nevada's, Wyoming's, Arizona's, New Mexico's) deer herd is not increasing.
 
There is alot being said about the added pressure that hunters are placing on the herds, but what about the pressure that is put on by predators. Predators hunt every day. What about the stress that is being added by urbanban sprawl, and the loss of winter range? Better bucks are being killed on private ranches now, compared to the 60's and 70's. I have attended many RAC meetings and find them to be a joke. People basing what is happening with mountain lions on the fact that they haven't seen any in the wild. That there must not be any lions out there, because we are killing more young females than ever before, so there aren't the amount of toms out there anymore. These are my personnal feelings:

2004 was above average because snow moved deer to easier places to kill them.

Looking at bowhunter success rates, I don't know if they hurt the deer population or help it. Sure there are deer killed, but they educate deer more than kill them, something to think about.

Cougars kill deer, cougars that are killed are younger, but is this because people are killing the first cougar they tree, because they are worried if they don't the unit will close and they won't get to kill one at all. What about outfitters that don't get paid as much if their client doesn't kill a lion? Are they going to wait?

Elk tags sell for more money than deer tags. The enviroment can only handle so much wildlife. You increase elk and moose numbers, carrying capacity for an area is not going to hold as many deer. Utah is managing for elk right now, the revenue coming in on limited enty tags is huge. I can almost hunt Idaho for the same amount as hunting Utah. There sure are some nice bulls in Utah though.

Conservation officers as I understand it have to buy all of their own equipment, and then get some sort of credit back. So they have to pay for their own horse and the care then get some sort of allowance back when they use it. But with horses they don't even brake even on the deal. I wish we had more officers and maybe if they took money from license sales to pay them more we would have more. I have put a lot of time in this year on the water and in the field, and yet to be checked. I am usually a long way from any road.

Smaller units and a draw system has been working for Colorado, and I think that it would work here as well. Cut back the permits, and maybe make elk more available. Open up some limited entry units for open bull. If you don't get a deer permit, at least you can still go elk hunting.

Couple of my own thoughts.

Don.
 
Keep the young bucks alive so they can mature into something bigger than a dink. Tough to keep the young bucks alive when 97,000 people are trying to kill them for 4 months. Granted, not all at the same time.
 
>Keep the young bucks alive so
>they can mature into something
>bigger than a dink. Tough
>to keep the young bucks
>alive when 97,000 people are
>trying to kill them for
>4 months. Granted, not all
>at the same time.

There needs to be a shift in thinking in terms of harvest percentage. General Season is what, on average 33% success? So if they want 30 bucks killed they sell 100 tags... this needs to change to a target harvest where 1 tag = 1 kill.

You only want 33,000 bucks harvested statewide only sell 33,000 tags! They should jack up the per tag price by another 3x to make up for the loss in tags no longer being sold. This change is what would help grow "older" deer although alot less people would get to go hunting, but really we are there already where general season tags approaching 1 in 2 draw odds.

I wish there was an easier way to identify dry does so they could be culled to leave more feed for the fawn producing ones.


-DallanC
 
Okay this is probably a dead thread now, sorry my work won't always let me keep up the thread. I'm pleasantly surprised to find I wasn't blown out of the water, and actually had some feed back to the positive! Bob Cat about wheelers - I have two, BUT wish they would ban them from public land! You bet I do!

I didn't touch on predators, I KNOW they are greatly hindering the deer from coming back. DWR has an interesting attitude about them. I'm not that great at putting things to words, but it goes something like since they don't have a way to influence much what the predators do -then they can't count that as anything they can do anything about -sort of like sticking your head in the sand it sounded like to me! They have the same attitude about car kills, etc. The above is not a good description or how I'd like to say it. One of you real eloquent guys put in words for me! I have to admit that I saw fewer cat tracks this year than I have for a while, but boy have the coyotes blossomed! I saw a neat recipe on the internet a while back. They guy said it worked for wolves in Canada. Claimed that quite a few outfitters used it to keep wolf numbers at bay so they could make a living on their hunting leases. Seems like it was a teaspoon full of a brand named TEMEK insecticide balled into a hamburger patty -(said you had to wear rubber gloves or die). Freeze it and dump it out on top of hard snow. It was a one bite gobble for a wolf and it killed em. Of course I'm NOT advocating that I think it is illegal in Utah, but I know that when the Gov Trappers where poisoning "vermin" we sure had a lot better deer herd! There's got to be a way to lessen the no. of yappin coyotes. I know they take their share of fawns. Didn't they do a Bookcliffs study that showed they where resonsible for an alarmingly high percentage of fawn mortality -a while back- just a few years ago?

I think I will write those guys that are on the one post up above, too. Hope you all do!

Oh you guys may want to know that (I've been told this, so it's second hand) In my general area, Both DWR officers claim to have told the higher ups that there aren't as many Big bull elk as they think, and that it is was their opinion the herd couldn't sustain the added harvest pushed through by SFW! Pretty sad, when the decision makers won't listen to the people out and doing the ground work! Makes you wonder how big of a campaign it takesto get listened too???
 
groundshrink,

Just send them the link to this thread. I hope you get a better response than me when I wrote them a few years ago. They must be busy.

Would you please send me an email or private message and tell me what part of the state or units that no longer have the big bulls according to the wildlife officers? I am worried about one unit on my list of hopefuls for elk.
 
"to support programs that will provide incetives to reduce harvest while maintaining opportunity." Yes how much did they pay out for that California non-resident hunter case in the SouthWest area where DWR used precussion bombs to scatter the heard after an early snow fall that wound up favoring the hunters. They dropped precussion bombs on the hunters during the middle of the season to scatter the deer and it was caught on video tape.

Misinformed I might be I just know the season use to be longer and often headed into first part of November.

I think there are indeed few overall hunters. But there are far more hunters than there are deer and we keep the pressure ont he deer for far to long!
 
I agree we need to better understand what is happening with the does and the fawns. Why are they not surviving?
 
I agree that the predators take their toll. But, the Book Cliff and Henry Mountain units have many predators and the deer populations came back in a big way when the DWR shut down hunting in those areas. Now they are open and we are seeing some awesome deer.

The hunters were holding down the quality in the area, not the predators.

Now, to your point, we would be able to issue many more tags to hunters to hunt deer if we reduced the predators in the area. But they will not be doing that in Utah. To many people in Salt Lake have gone soft on the issue of hunting and herritage (they dont like hunters killing cute animals).

AA

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Yes tree huggers, Peta, and animal rights activists take their toll.

We need to change thinking in general about predators, hunting, hunters, and wildlife conservation.

Those that like to look at and watch the pretty Deer in his/her environment need to understand that predators do and will make a difference on the overall stability, growth, and decline of the heard.

One argument I have heard is to open up and allow more grazing for sheep and cattle. Why? well they often monitor thier heards fenidng off and killing predators the very ones also killing the Deer heards. While opinion polls are out it is one idea. BUt others will argue that grazing cattle and sheep deplete food sources from the very habitat the Deer also utilize for feeding grounds.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-05 AT 01:09PM (MST)[p]>There needs to be a shift
>in thinking in terms of
>harvest percentage. General Season is
>what, on average 33% success?
>So if they want 30
>bucks killed they sell 100
>tags... this needs to change
>to a target harvest where
>1 tag = 1 kill.
>
>
>You only want 33,000 bucks harvested
>statewide only sell 33,000 tags!
>They should jack up the
>per tag price by another
>3x to make up for
>the loss in tags no
>longer being sold. This change
>is what would help grow
>"older" deer although alot less
>people would get to go
>hunting, but really we are
>there already where general season
>tags approaching 1 in 2
>draw odds.
>

AMEN!
I would gladly pay 4 or 5 times the current price and only hunt once every 3 - 4 years if that were the case.
 
First, I'm not from Utah and never hunted there but the problems are similar here in Idaho. Way less deer than 15 years ago.

Just a couple thoughts from reading this thread:
-too many predators. More lions and coyotes than ever

-not enough grazing. Fewer cows=more grass=more elk=less deer; plus, herders tend to shoot coyotes and lions. I just finished a draw hunt in Idaho and saw lots of deer, mainly in areas that were grazed.

-no enough mature bucks to breed does in a timely manner. I agree that 6 bucks could breed 100 does, but in nature timing is everything. You can't convince me that 1 buck can breed app. 17 does within a 4 or 5 day period. Why is that important? In the spring when the fawns drop if they all are born within a short time period it "overwhelms" the predators and lowers mortality. Also, fawns born late go into the next winter smaller and w/less fat than needed to survive.

Just my 2 cents
 

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