spike elk hunts

S

stinkystomper

Guest
ok, now that the hunts are finally here and everyone can buy their spike tags im curious to find out how many guys are passing. i know i tried to talk pro into it and he passed. even after we had a spike at 70 yards he wouldnt even consider it. he said that bull will be a giant one day. i stared for a while and imagined a 390 bull staring back at me and thot he was right, what a waste that would be. even presented with a definite possibility of taking a spike with ur bow or rifle how many of u guys are passing on the opportunity? i see guys posting spike kills on here, print there pic out put it in my backpocket and wait to see them when i come up in a few weeks. am i alone in my thoughts on boycoting the spike hunt? if all spike tags arent sold what kind of message will that send. have they been sold? i hope they havent and u guys in utah can send a clear signal with a big birdie right behind it




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Stinky I hope they send that message to the Fish and Game. I am going hunting for elk for the first time this year. I am sure some day I will want to go and chase after the big ones like you are this year good luck and I can wait to see your pictures after you get your bull.
 
Spike bull rifle tags usually sell out mid July? I haven't bought one for 4-5 years now. Archery tags are unlimited, you can kill a spike, cow, calf, or branch antlered bull depending on the unit you are in.

I don't think the state will ever stop issuing spike and cow tags. They're too stupid.

Here we go again........
 
You may not be able to make a difference this season, but keep this post going, pass the info to everyone and see if we can't make a change for next year.
Good luck on your hunt!
 
I've refused to archery hunt on the spike units since they were instituted way back wnenever. In return I've spent alot of years sucking on the Wasatch front and Uintas for elk, eating tag soup every year. With that said I'm going to the San Juan this weekend to check it out. I'm planning on spending my 15 points down there next year and want to see for myself how it looks.

The question is how do you go scout out a unit during the hunt to see what the crowds or lack there of is like if you don't get out there and hunt with a bow or camera? Either way you're in the middle of someone else's elk.

Cheers,
Pete
 
I think you will like the Blue Mountains, it has some great bulls on it.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I unfortunately completely disagree with this post about spike hunting. Most things the DWR has done over the past 30 years I have completely disagreed with, even the idea of spike only hunts. However you cannot take away from the fact the DWR decision has completely change elk hunting in Utah. Twenty five years ago Utah was only a spike hunt occasionally a large bull was killed but 90% of all elk were just yearlies even though every where was an any bull unit.

I was very up set with the changes made to increase the spike number this year and have an open quote on the archery another poor decision on the DWR. I wish they would have left everything the same and gave more hunters opportunity to hunt big bulls.

I am very up set that they are shooting 1600 cows off the Fish Lake. But I have children that need an opportunity to hunt big game. Kids will loose interest in hunting if they don't have opportunities to go and not just go they need to harvest animals. I think the spike hunt accomplish this very well. I have taken many kids on spike hunts it is a great hunt for them. For me personally I very rarely buy a spike tag, I have bought 2 in the last 12 years. I personally don't have a lot of interest in shooting a yearling bull, but I do take someone every year to introduce them to elk hunting, most of the time a kids whose dad can't or won't take them hunting. I don't want to see that opportunity go.
 
Good points muley. I still argue that not killing spikes could only increase future opportunity for big bulls on every unit. With the changes made this year we will see a decrease in opportunity on some of the best units for big bulls. Taking 50% of the yearlings off any unit is going to make a difference in the mature bulls availiable to hunt.
 
I just don't buy the opportunity to get kids involved in hunting theory. I believe kids are swamped with opportunity to hunt, antelope doe hunts, cow moose hunts, cow elk hunts, doe deer hunts, general deer hunts, open bull units, rabbit hunts, duck hunts, turkey hunts, you get the idea.

there are better ways to manage elk then spike hunts.
Arizonas plan is superior and allows for far more opertunity at mature bulls then Utah and they have half the elk Utah has.

If some one wants to kill a spike on a LE unit with their points then fine. If someone wants to kill a spike on a open bull unit then fine.

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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Your absolutely right, I agree by eliminating spike hunts it would increase bull numbers. However lets do some math. Keep in mind some of the numbers come from the DWR so I doubt they are accurate but it is all we have to work with. The DWR claims that there is a 30% success rate on the spike hunt. Which means 3750 spikes are harvested each year 12500 x 30%. My last count there was almost 2000 mature bull tags in the state. If they eliminated the spike hunt and took those same number and add mature bull tags it would almost triple the big bull tags. I am not sure that would be a good thing for those elk units. This same site hunters complain about how many people are around during there hunt I think it would make it a tough hunt to issue that many more tags and have a good hunt. Also it would mean that 8750 people would not have an opportunity to go hunt. Don't get me wrong I am not about kill everything. I wish they would cut deer tag numbers in half we harvest too many. I think I agree with most of you I don't think the elk plan is as good as it could be, but I guess we should just feel lucky we have the elk numbers so we can try different thing so everyone has an opportunity to go. I don't like the idea that it is a once in life time tag to hunt a LE unit in Utah for elk. But I don't think eliminating the spike hunt is a good thing our youth need a chance to hunt. I wish if they are going to issue cow tags most of them would go to the youth. A whole other issue.
 
There are a few biological aspects to take into account as well. First, if you are going to increase hunting opportunities with the least amount of impact on the herd, it is best to target the animals with the highest natural mortality rate. In the case of elk, it is the yearlings. So from a biological standpoint, a spike elk hunt offers increased hunting opportunities with minimal overall impact on the elk population. A spike hunt also allows the DWR to manage bull to cow ratios and still maintain a specific age class of bulls.
 
For some reason people think I am a spike killer? Sorry guys, this guy has no need to kill a spike. I am sitting out forever.

Since turkeys keep getting brought up, wont kill another bird ever either.;-)

No turkeys or spikes for ktc! Dont care about neither!!! :)

I like NM stinky. A guy has to spend his time researching his best opions to kill big chit. Spike hunting is a waste of time and money when you can be hunting mature animals some where else.

Dont anyone drag me into a pissing match.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-09 AT 12:51PM (MST)[p]from my arguments with pro on another thread, you would think i am for spike hunting..not the case! 100% against it! i just like to argue with people!

here is your wish come true stinky:

HEY DWR
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This topic is alot like politics and religon you will never have the majority agree on one or the other.
However.... I have talked to dwr guys who love the spike hunting and others who never see the point. I personally would NEVER buy or support the the spike program. As much as I love elk meat I would rather have MORE chances in the future to hunt mature bulls and be able to hang them on the wall for generations to enjoy. Do you know anybody who has a spike on there wall??????
PS. If there truely is somebody who does a picture has got to follow!




























*Remember it's all about elk baby!!!*
 
Spikes are inferior bulls. Just ask any domestic breeder. Spike bulls are also pretty hard to find (for most hunters), so the success rates will remain low. They provide oppurtunity for hunters who want to put meat in the freezer or just be in the field.If spike hunting has a down side, it's that it puts to many hunters in the field at one time.

Having said that, I don't care to own a spike tag as there are to many oppurtunities in other states to hunt mature bulls.
 
domestic breeders have experience with spikes being inferior? wow i never heard of proof existing. ayone on here an elk breeder with first hand knowledge of this. what do the typical spikes look like at 6 yrs old. im curious.


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LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-09 AT 11:15PM (MST)[p]I shot a spike with my bow this year. My first animal with a bow and I don't feel bad at all about it. I had a limited entry Bull tag and ate tag soup because I passed on all the young bulls I could have shot last year =P( probably a dozen different 5 points)

Oh and don't forget not everyone's a trophy hunter. some people do it for the meat and opportunities to be with family and friends =P
 
scope,

Dont apologize. Nothing wrong with shooting a spike. In fact it is a good thing. I just dont enjoy it any more, but there was a time that I did enjoy it. Congrats on the bow kill!
 
+1 scope, i dont agree with it as proper managment, but i hold nothing against the folks taking advantage of it.
 
cabinfever, can you provide a link to a study or two that shows spikes are inferior bulls? Serious. I have researched the subject at length, and every study I have been able to locate states there is no link to the potential of a bull based on his first set of antlers.

PRO
 
scope. i would say ur good in ur reasonning but ur storys a bit off. u said u ate tag soup a few years straight right? well i know if that were me id be pretty pissed and ready for some revenge. i woulda got a spike tag, gut shot the friggin elk and then beat the pisscutter outa him wth a louisville slugger to finish him off. now that would be revenge and totally get a little frustration outa ur system. however since u simply "shot" a spike instead of beating the piss outa one i cant agree with ur motives for killing a spike and must call u an elk herd destroying utard! just my two cents. just look at the pic of that guy that shot one with his bow. that guy looks like he drives a subaru and carries his kids in little pouches strapped ro his chest. id also put him as a straight a engineering msjor in college. thsts exactly what i expect the guys who shoot spikes to look like.




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LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09 AT 02:38PM (MST)[p]well you can call me a herd destroying Utard all you want but nothing you say will diminish from how cool it was to kill a spike with my bow. and nothing you say will change how good his steaks are going to taste =P
 
scope,

Dont let stinky rattle you. He is a professional chit stirrer. Believe it or not, he is actually a good guy. Can you believe that?;-)

Enjoy the bow kill. Killing a spike in Utah is harder than a 350 bull.
 
>Enjoy the bow kill. Killing a
>spike in Utah is harder
>than a 350 bull.

I just fell off my chair reading that from you.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09 AT 06:18PM (MST)[p]Stinkystomper
I have a friend who raises some domestic elk here in Southern Utah. He said his top end bulls will be a branch antler bull their first year. Most bulls just don't have what it takes genetically to reach 380 let alone 400 inches. Some of the bulls he's raised have never broke the 300 mark even with plenty of age.

Pro,
these guys are farmers. I doubt they write books about their research, but I'll bet if you dug hard enough you'll find what your looking for.If you really want to know, call an elk breeder and shoot the crap with him. Their are a ton of these guys and I think their experience will be more valuable than all written studies you'll find.

You will never convince me that the spike hunting is hurting our big bull population. Anyone on MM would take a Beaver, Fishlake or Boulder tag in a NY minute and they have been killing spikes on those units for a heck of a long time.

I just spoke with a good friend of mine who has a limited entry archery elk tag here in Southern Utah. His oldest daughter has been able to tag along on this hunt with a spike tag in her pocket. He has been having the time of his life hunting with his kid and IMO that is what it's all about.

Mike
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]One question guys??? Why did they implement more spike tags??

Was it to improve the bull to cow ratio????

Seems kinds funny the guy bitching is the one who is coming from out of state to hunt?? What did the tag cost ?????????

Guides included???
 
You're tight there is something adversley affecting the big bull population - it's more than doubling the number of limited area Elk tags for rifleman - these are the guys that can knock off an Elk at 400 to 500 yards and have the highest success rate.

The Utah Elk herds can't take this level of harvest and maintain the quality of bull Elk taken - a good example is the Wasatch unit.

As has already been said the spike success rates don't indicate that the yearlings are being massacred !

It's definitely OK to have an opinion on this but making a big deal out of it (and some of your responses) show you don't honor other people's opinions.
 
Pro,

Really? If you would just read what I have wrote for the last 8 years instead of always looking for a fight you might understand me. Go to the deer forum, you might see I actually compliment the bow hunters on some great bucks. Anyone who thinks killing a spike with 15k Utards out there is easy then they should go give it a whirl. The LE units give a guy a chance to hunt the elk, not cut them off at the nearest escape route. So killing a mature bull is easier if you get out, find the elk, glass them over, look some more, then going in and getting one you like. That is saddling up at 4 AM and going until dark, not driving up the road with a Bud between your legs like some want you to think. What gets my goat is guys applying for tags in January, knowing the dates, then they sit here in Aug and Sept and have the nerve to gripe. There have been some great bucks and bulls taken already this year. All I can say is good job for getting out there and adapting to the situation and getting it done.

So there you have it, pick it apart and find something negative.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09 AT 08:52PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09 AT 07:52?PM (MST)




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>uve come a long way ty.
>pro hit u for no
>reason. thank you ty very
>much.

I didn't hit, I tapped him a little. Good hell almighty! It wasn't even mean, I was just saying...............talk about folks being sensitive. Folks can slam me all day long, I make one little jab and even the 'boss' calls me out, WTF?

As for cabinfever, I don't think it is safe to compare ranch bulls to wild bulls. The ranch bulls are in controlled environments as opposed to being in harsh elements, get excellent feed as opposed to struggling to survive the first winter, are born around the same time as opposed to randomly in the wild, have better genetics due to controlled breeding. So, I like to compare apples to apples not apples to watermelons.

PRO
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-09
>AT 06:28?PM (MST)

>
>One question guys??? Why did they
>implement more spike tags??
>
>Was it to improve the bull
>to cow ratio????
>
>Seems kinds funny the guy bitching
>is the one who is
>coming from out of state
>to hunt?? What did the
>tag cost ?????????
>
>Guides included???


So answer the question ??????????????????/
 
dear black heart!

i know that but ty takes ur comments very serious. Now if u call me boss again im gonna show ur exwife the way to this forum! dont mess with me cuz i fight to kill! lol



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OMG stinky! Two posts with edits? Did QTPIE see something she did not like and made you erase your posts? Okay stinky, what did I miss?;-)
 
Damn! I sure hope the hunt starts soon so you guys will have something better to do with your time!;-) Last year I would have said (and did say) that spikes were an endagered species where I hunt. I have actually seen more spikes this year than the last 5 years combined.

cabinfever - while I agree with part of your statement that spike hunting won't hurt Utah's big bull population in numbers, I strongly believe that it will hurt size. Simple logic stands to reason that you can't take from both ends of the age curve and not hurt size and age. Why do you think they are doing this? It's simple, they want the age objective to drop in all of those units that they opened the spike bull hunts on. I don't need a damn study to tell me that. Hell, I spend enough time on this stupid computer. I sure don't need to be looking up some studies! PRO has way more time on his hands than me.;-)



It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I have yet to see an intelligent reconciliation by those who hate the spike hunt as to why Boulder and Beaver have been shooting spikes and continue to be as good as the other units in the area that haven't allowed spike hunting.

We can talk about stats and theories all day long, but reality is the units that have allowed it have done fine (Beaver isn't any larger than Monroe.)

I've heard a lot of hot air so far. Nobody has come close to striking a cord that would convince me that the spike thing is bad.
 
pro,

Cabin is right in comparing domestic elk to wild elk. If a spike can't grow up with massive antlers in a controlled environment, he certainly will not grow them any bigger in a wild environment. Controlled evironment is the best way to see what genes are capable of doing.
 
the LE hunts are once in a life time or maybe two unless you have the money to buy a tag...so I will hunt spikes and cows because I love to hunt and love the meat!
 
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allaboutelk6,

I have and still do hunt spikes during the archery season.
I'm on the points list waiting for the big tag, but while waiting I want to be in the woods with friends and family hunting & filming elk. I shot my first elk w/ a bow a few years ago and he is on my wall. I'm proud of it and every time I look at him I remember the trip & experience I had.
 
No, that's not ethical. Spike kills should be brutal and gruesome. I have a P-90 that can shoot full auto. It cranks out about 50 rounds in 2.5 seconds. Now that's ethical and stress relieving. Then finish him off by decapitating him with a chainsaw while he's still kicking. If you don't have a vendetta against elk then you have no business shooting spikes. 15 years of not drawing allows you the right to massacre a spike. Other reasons may include a divorce, being fired, evicted, or just a bad year. However, meat is not an option. Walmart is much cheaper.



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OMG stinky! You need Anger Management!

That was kind of funny!:)

I like elk and I like spikes. Maybe I am turning into a elk-hugger?;-)
 
ok stinky your my new hero! I have been laughing my arse off! for one you guys that think your g&f officials are doing the right thing should be slapped! and hard! for one killing spikes is not helping your herds one bit, if you should be thanking anyone you should be thanking all these guys that are worried about a bull being 350 or not. trophy hunting has by far been the number one reason why you even have a chance at killing the quality animals we have today. and you would have to be a moron to think that spikes are inferior animals, seriously? I don't know how many times I hear about guys watching animals go from 1 to 7 or 8 year olds! bs, im a huge trophy hunter and you can't me you can find the exact same bull until he has grown some kind of distinguishable rack! that will be around 4! and yes farm bulls can be watched year after year, but not even close to proving a thing on this subject. stinky good luck on your upcoming hunt!
 
AWHB

You are a level headed bloke and frankly I agree with most of what you are saying. It would make since that killing from both ends would hurt things, but again you have to look at units like Beaver, FL, Boulder where they have been killing at both ends for a long time yet they remain some of the top units for trophy bulls in the state. Spikes are no different than any other elk...they will not tolerate human behavior and thus move off into the most remote nasty stuff they can find. Lucky for us, 90% of hunters will not go the distance to kill a spike and thus the success rate will remain low.I think what is hurting our big bull population is that we are killing to may of our mature 6 points (300-330 class). To many big bull tags IMO!

I'm not a spike hunter and never have really had an interest in it....I guess I just don't have a problem with it either. I'd rather someone burn their 2 weeks vacation on a spike hunt over a deer hunt. Now I definately have an opinion on Utah's deer management!

Pro

I'm refering to domestic elk raised in mountain habitat enclosures, so it is an apples to apples comparsion. If anything, the elk in the enclosure have a disadvantage because once an area is fed off they can't move onto better habitat. I guess you can believe what you want to believe but in the end it's hard to argue with the facts. Genetics are, and will always be the number one factor deciding the physical outcome of any mammal.

Mike
 
"for one you guys that think your g&f officials are doing the right thing should be slapped! and hard!"

That is the funniest thing anyone has ever said to me! I can't believe I will defend the DWR. But in the late 80's when the DWR made the decision to create spike only units many people opposed it greatly, me included. However, time has proven that this decision changed elk hunting in Utah. Either you are too young to know or I don't know what Utah you lived in. No one even saw the kind of bulls that this state has now, a 300" bull was a monster. A few units like Monroe and Panguitch Lake killed some 330-360 but nothing bigger for the most part.

That is the only decision I will support, about everyone after has been poor. I think if they are not careful they will destroy the elk heard. I opposed the increase of spike tags I think 11000 is a good number.

As for your idea it is for trophy hunters, just open any LE unit one year and see what happens.
 
I dont know if the F&G are right or wrong, but Utah produces the biggest bulls in the world. They are doing something right.

Geezus, I just set myself up for another fight! Ugh!
 
If 1100 is a good number, but how do we keep it at that number if that's where they want it?
You have to kill elk, plain and simple.
You can't open up too many LE tags to keep numbers low or you wipe out the age class, and you have to kill hundreds of cows each year, what's left if we need to keep the bull to cow ratio's where they need them??

The only thing i hear the pro's saying is to move the hunt dates around.
How is that going to keep the numbers in check when you lower the success ratio's, all your doing is flooding the hills with more hunters which equals WAY more pressure that we already complain about!
My heavens, listen to all the bickering about the archery spike hunters being in at the same time as the LE hunters, how is that different than giving out a lot more LE tags??
Hunters in the field are hunters in the field no matter what size they are after!





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slam,

Exactly right! As I noted above, to draw and have solice while hunting, that is the best part! To go out and be over run with people hunting just plain sucks and is why I dont do general season any more. I like the dates. HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!! To set the dates by date instead of weekend would be much more fair to all. Archery end on the 18th, muzz or rifle for 8 days then 8 days for the last hunt. Having late hunts spreads out the pressure. See? I dont hate bow hunters, that is wrong to end it on the 11th, but the guys I know who bow hunt kill most bulls that first week of Sept. What I dont like is give the bow hunters all the perks and toss the rifle guys to the side. There are fair ways to do things not have it all one way.
 
I agree, but remember many of the seasons are actually part of state legislation. I know the general deer is, not sure for elk. Call you local state representative.
 
personally im a little tciked off they did unlimited tags for archery really screwing the archery le guys bad! ive now had numerous bulls i have been after chased out of the area by spike hunters im starting to get a bit angry its gettin old now! i kinda feel like the dwr screwed the guys with archery le tags. but i am still tryin to make the best of it i just hope all this stres on the elk especiall ythe cows doesnt delay the rut to much. thats kinda what i am bankin on to find a good bull now. gettin sick of hiking in areas there has always been elk only to find empty beds and boot tracks in every bit of elk country i know. i know those elk have to be someone just cant find them right now. hope it gets better.
i think the spike hunting may hurt the herd. but on the other hand it is nice to have more hunting opportunities. you look at areas that have had spike hunting for years on them like beaver and they still pump out a ton of huge bulls! but i think it was a i still think it is a big gamble to do it when utah is producing great bulls all over the state.
 
ox I am not directing this at you. The middle hunt is Any Weapon, with very limited tags and hunters. If I was a dyed in the wool bow guy, I think I would have applied for the Any Weapon this year. I can guarantee the pressure would be much less during the Any Weapon than the archery with tens of thousands of tards running around trying to bugle in spikes. ox I think you are right. With Utah setting dates thru the entire month of Sept, based on my experience, I dont think Utah has a typical rut. Guys who bow hunt want the Any Weapon dates for archery and I honestly have not witnessed these dates being a huge advantage with a bow? The elk I have hunted sure dont come screaming into a call, nor do they bugle much at all? The real downer for a bow guy is the elk have their cows during the Any Weapon making it much harder? I am glad my opportunity is over. I am focusing on Wyoming, Nevada, and NM for my elk hunting needs. No one will ever be completely happy unless each guy gets a tag during dates he picks with no other hunters out there and a tag yearly? Trying to please 200K people is not going to happen.
 
m75 not saying hunting in utah's not better now than it was way back when. but do you really think the dwr really gives a rats azz? and there are a lot better ways to givve hunters more opportunity there. for one all the rifle tags in the rut, drop that number some and then offer hunts later in the year after the rut. the spike tags ardour a bs compromise. they make more revenue while giving you an opportunity. I remember when 30" was the mark for tfophy deer, and I watched guys pass on 200+ bucks because they didn't have the spread. elk used to be sought after because of the number of points they hzd per side. now I see hunters pass on animals because they don't hit that magical number! trophy hunters not shooting the first legal animal they come across is helping a heck of a lot more than the dwr! and I reside in nm, unfortunatly. and our game management isn't any better, probably worse. utah has done great things then to just turn around and screw it all up again! ktc your off the hook this time! lol jk
 
I think this post and every other post about the spike hunting is complete BS!!! There is "No" way that spike hunting is going to hurt our herds. The bull to cow ratio on the units that "do not" have spike hunting are so outta whack it is pathetic. Whether each person approves or disapproves of spike hunting is pointless the fact of the matter is..... the DWR chose to do this and we are doing it, end of story!!!

Me personally I would rather see the spike hunts thin the bull population,(some of our units are almost 1-1,1-2) so that more cows get bred. (instead of fighting non-stop) When cows come into heat if the bull cannot go get a little, then that cow is only going to come in one more time. I think if the bull to cow ratio on some of these units are brought into check a little better than we will all be reaping the rewards.

Also, we have only had 7-8 spike units until now with 11000 tags (and these units have still produced giant bulls for years now) now there is 26 and only an additional 3000 tags allotted. Clearly I am not a betting man, but if I was, I would bet it will help all the units in the state because it is going to scatter all the hunters more. So the Manti, Wasatch, Fishlake, etc............ will have far less pressure on them than they have for the last 20 years!!

In reality I think the people totally opposed to these spike hunts, have some sort of vested interest in certain units, or hunting in general. (I.E. guiding, packing, filming, whatever) I hope they realize that we are all in this together, and these "SPIKE HUNTS" will help not hurt!!!

As for the people with spike tags, knock yourself out and have a killer hunt!! I hope all of you hunt new areas, hunt hard and enjoy everything there is to enjoy about elk hunting in general!!! It will be a sad day when we have NO elk because we did not manage for Quantity, we only managed for Quality!!
 
+1 big_uns!!!
Micro managing from our lounge chairs about something we are ALL only guessing about is exhausting!!

Spike hunting is what has made this states biggest herds what they are.
There's NO WAY it's going to destroy our units, the success rate is simply to low to do that.

60% spike kills versus the VERY limited LE tags balance out just fine.
The ONLY way it would destroy a unit is if everyone showed up and hunted it at once.
Is that really going to happen??

Change the archery dates around a little so it moves the spike hunters out of the LE hunters way and be done with it,
spikes can be found and killed anytime of the year.
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>+1 big_uns!!!
>Micro managing from our lounge chairs
>about something we are ALL
>only guessing about is exhausting!!
>
>
>Spike hunting is what has made
>this states biggest herds what
>they are.
>There's NO WAY it's going to
>destroy our units, the success
>rate is simply to low
>to do that.
>
>60% spike kills versus the VERY
>limited LE tags balance out
>just fine.
>The ONLY way it would destroy
>a unit is if everyone
>showed up and hunted it
>at once.
>Is that really going to happen??
>
>
>Change the archery dates around a
>little so it moves the
>spike hunters out of the
>LE hunters way and be
>done with it,
>spikes can be found and killed
>anytime of the year.
>
48288e6577d023b6.jpg



i agree on changeing thinhgs to not disrupt the archery le guys with all this spike hunting. it just ticks me off they did unlimited archery spike/cow tags. i think they should have started the spike hunt five days after the begining of the le archery elk and quit 5 days before like they have planned already would have cushioned it on both ends a little!i contemplated turning my tag in several times but decided to stick with it hopefully i made the right chjoice!
the rifle spike hunt will be nice for the units that have always had spike hunts it will cut the number of hunters on each unit in to a fraction which is cool for them.
 
Thanks for sparing me a ass whooping!;-)

I dont think the spike hunts are going to hurt anything, I just dont do it. For those who do, good for you! Go lower the ratio and enjoy the meat.
 
your welcome,lol. but targeting one age group in any species is a horrible idea. you guys need to push for multiple seasons like az is doing. then if someone wants a spike heck fire away! give more hunting opportunitlies by giving more hunts. its not any easy feat killing a mature bull in late nov. and there's a solution to giving more tags during the current le seasons. I talk with my outfitter friends over there and all they have to say is its getting harder and harder to find quality bulls, and its getting worse every year! 5yrs from now utah's going to be sucking hinny! just like what's happened with your deer! well at least have the decency to wipe the milk off the lips before posting the spike pics!
 
horn,

I'm convinced guides will never be happy over the long term. Can anyone dispute that the past 5 years in Utah have been historical for big elk? Perhaps expectations are much higher, so it seems harder.
 
>horn,
>
>I'm convinced guides will never be
>happy over the long term.
> Can anyone dispute that
>the past 5 years in
>Utah have been historical for
>big elk? Perhaps expectations
>are much higher, so it
>seems harder.

I must be the exception to that rule, Smelly.
48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
heck I don't really know how to prove it or if you can, not everyone enters the record books so that can vary greatly. but I will say that both of these guys have helped to harvest huge bulls and year after year they keep talking about how much harder it is to find just one bull to meet a clients expectations, let alone finding multiple bulls in that range. and 5 years ago they helped harvest multiple 380+ bulls. this year there hoping for 350 bulls, the older age bulls are starting to dwindle. and now lets kill off the starting generation. and what's left? a bunch of crap in the middle!
 
Spike tags are NOT the reason we have monster bull in Utah! It drives me crazy when people make such a claim. Slammy, you know I love you, but you KNOW the reason we have big bulls is because of Limited tags being issued for mature bulls. Spike tags were originally issued to give elk hunters something to hunt while some units put a stop on mature bull harvests for 5 years. It was NEVER intended to be a management tactic. Now the Wildlife Board, NOT THE DWR, pushed this statewide even though the majority of those who attended the RAC's and Wildlife Board meetings were against this.

Issuing spike tags does/WILL have effects on the number of mature tags that can be issued. Someone above made the false claim there is no disputing that the Beaver/Boulder are proof spike tags don't hurt quality, but they failed to mention the price that makes that possible. Both units have roughly the same number of elk as the Dutton, both have roughly the same quality, but neither come anywhere close to the number of mature bull tags issued. Changing season dates is only ONE part of what I say can/should be done, giving a higher percentage of the tags issued to primitive weapon holders allows for more tags to be issued w/o taking a big hit on quality.

I promised to be nice to certain sensitive 'experts' on here, so I won't comment on the absurdity of saying we should limit the number of hunters in the field to make the experience 'better' other than to say that could be solved by keeping 7-8 'Premium' units that keep the same season dates we have no and extremely limited tag allotments. Then those who feel they need to the whole mountain to themselves can apply for these 'elite' units, w/o taking opportunity from thousands of other wishful elk hunters.

And yes, even though I will get called out on it, issuing spike tags during ANY LE hunt is wrong and idiotic. Funny how they only did that to ONE group, the ones hunting right now. I wonder how the rifle guys would like having the 'any weapon' spike hunt taking place during the 'any weapon' LE hunt(s). The outrage and wailing would be far worse than we are hearing from the archers. Yet archers are told to suck it up. Go figure! Look at the whining when a few extra LE tags are issued during the 'any weapon' season, just imagine what the reaction would be if a few thousand spike hunters were chasing bugles while the 'any weapon' hunters were on a hunt of a lifetime. Makes on wonder................

PRO
 
i will have to agree with u on a few points pro. the spike hunts should never b with the le hunts. thats wrong. why not puit them in july. they are identifiable then. i also agree that spike hunting isnt the best management tool. have a late bull hunt for spike through raghorn in february when hunting sucks. i will disagree with u on having the mountain to urself. thats the alure of utah right now and is most peoples dream. why do u think i bot a dutton tag over the sanjuan? its remote and le meaning i can get away from people which in itself maked it an awsome hunt. sorry for grammar. my phone sux.









4a1df3ee0ef8dc53.jpg
 
Like I said stinky, keep 7-8 LE units premium that has very limited tags issued for those who wish to have the whole mountain basically to themselves, I see no valid reason why 30 LE units have to be managed for a few instead of for the many. That does not bode well with the future of hunting IMHO.

PRO
 
I know one thing We were down in the Book Cliffs and it was a dang shame all of the spike hunters. We were hunting deer and they were everywhere. But on a good note I did not see anyone kill one. I have 12pts and I know I am going to take my tag now instead of later muzzle or archarey and i suggest anyone wanting to get a crack do the same. In 5 years a 350 will be a monster.Thanks DWR for another screw up i hope everyone will be attending there rac Meetings.
 
Lets understand this? Some experts say they need the whole mountain to themselves. Yet every thread on MM right now comments on all the spike hunters ruining the archery hunt? I totally sympathize with your gripe. No one wants to be hunting 350+ bulls and have to stumble over the 100's of spike hunters? So which is it? Limit the tags or offer up lots of tags for those who wish to hunt right now? I guess I just dont get it. It must be one or the other. All I get is I am DONE here in Utah. Why do I give a #####? Not so sure?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-09 AT 11:03PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-09 AT 11:01?PM (MST)

pro said"Issuing spike tags does/WILL have effects on the number of mature tags that can be issued. Someone above made the false claim there is no disputing that the Beaver/Boulder are proof spike tags don't hurt quality, but they failed to mention the price that makes that possible. Both units have roughly the same number of elk as the Dutton, both have roughly the same quality, but neither come anywhere close to the number of mature bull tags issued. Changing season dates is only ONE part of what I say can/should be done, giving a higher percentage of the tags issued to primitive weapon holders allows for more tags to be issued w/o taking a big hit on quality."

how long has the boulder/beaver had so few bull tags compaired to dutton, 2-3 years? like i said before, they will kill the cream off the dutton while beaver and boulder keep doing their thing.



"And yes, even though I will get called out on it, issuing spike tags during ANY LE hunt is wrong and idiotic. Funny how they only did that to ONE group, the ones hunting right now. I wonder how the rifle guys would like having the 'any weapon' spike hunt taking place during the 'any weapon' LE hunt(s). The outrage and wailing would be far worse than we are hearing from the archers. Yet archers are told to suck it up. Go figure! Look at the whining when a few extra LE tags are issued during the 'any weapon' season, just imagine what the reaction would be if a few thousand spike hunters were chasing bugles while the 'any weapon' hunters were on a hunt of a lifetime. Makes on wonder................"

I totaly agree, and i dont recall ANYONE saying archers should just suck it up. got anything to make that stament credible?

you are correct in that most of us get sick of the archery is better BS constantly preached by you.poor me i'm always the victim. sounds like the liberals of the hunting community, thats why you get called out.
 
Pro i agree with moving the spike hunts away from ALL LE hunts that are going on, 100%.
But i have heard you say over and over that we have got to kill bulls, it's a no brainer to maintain herd sizes.
So....if we can't add on 100's of mature bull tags to keep the numbers in check with the objectives because we'll wipe the age class out, how else do you do it if you can't kill spikes?

You said-
"Spike tags were originally issued to give elk hunters something to hunt while some units put a stop on mature bull harvests for 5 years. It was NEVER intended to be a management tactic."

Wait a minute, that certainly describes a management tool to me!
Kill spikes, stop killing mature bulls for 5 years....BOOM..the Wasatch and Manti herds literally exploded!
And now it is most certainly used as a tool, no doubt about it.

And I'm sorry to all my archer friends of which i have many,i certainly am not knocking your sport but using primitive weapons is NOT the best "management tool" to control any species of game, they are simply not as efficient or effective enough for that task.
Primitive weapon hunting is more of a "privilege" in the hunting world, not a tool for management.
The DWR has a job to do and that job and first priority is to "manage" our wildlife the most effective and logical way they can, but toss out a few "perks" to appease ALL sporting groups.

I bow hunted and was a die hard archer for 15 years, i know first hand how low the success rate is.
Quadrupling or even doubling the archery permits and move them to during the rut to hit objectives numbers just doesn't make sense. Bowhunting is tough enough, let alone add in more competition to fight for that one bull at the wallow.
I see people complaining everyday on here of how many trailcams are sitting on THEIR water holes or wallows, now we want to double or triple the tags??

We have elk to kill, lots of them every year.
We are at 90% of our herd size on a statewide level, most units are full, some are even over.
I say we are doing something right, we indisputably the best elk state and there's a reason for that. We got this way from killing the right amount of spikes, along with the right amount of mature bulls. Now some of our other LE units have met objectives and elk need to be killed without hurting quality too much.

Everyone has been saying the Wasatch is dead now from all the LE tags and the thousands of spikes killed all these years...LMAO, that place still kicks monster bulls and always will! And it also gives hunters willing to "settle" for pisscutter 350" bulls everyday! When did 350" bulls become "pisscutters" anyway, that's a dang good bull!!
It's a fact that MOST LE elk hunters don't care to kill a 400" bull, they just want "nice bulls", yet there are just enough picky hunters that pass those medium bulls to let the stock mature...along with the 40% survival on spikes....it's the perfect balance an it's proven its self for all these years, has it not?? Show me where!!

As for season dates, yes the archery is too early, i agree.
Why not bump everything a week or two weeks later?
Hell I'd jump all over rifle elk hunting towards the end of September versus the front, we all know it gets better and wish we had another week!

Ok archers, I'm ready for my Crucifixion! ;-)








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
ktc its really not that hard to understand. say they give out 300 le any weapon tags on dunton right now. well that's 300 guys hunting with high success rates during the rut. now you take that rut hunt and offer 100 tags for that time frame and offer 400 tags at a latter date say end of november. well the november hunt success will be greatly lower. now the dwr achieves about the same harvest objectives while increasing hunter opportunitlies. and you have no need for a gay spike hunt. and I guarentee guys will still shoot spike on the later hunt!
 
sorry slam I have to disagree with you entirely about utah being a top producing state because of proper management! lol no way utah offers more tags than any other state when big bulls are at their most vulnerable. utah puts out at least 5 times as many rut tags as az yet only has twice the annual entries.
 
>sorry slam I have to disagree
>with you entirely about utah
>being a top producing state
>because of proper management! lol
>no way utah offers more
>tags than any other state
>when big bulls are at
>their most vulnerable. utah puts
>out at least 5 times
>as many rut tags as
>az yet only has twice
>the annual entries.

Utah also has twice the number of elk. Good post horn hunter!

Slammy, primitive weapons can be great management tools for the very reasons you said they are not. You can issue a lot more tags without slaughtering every bull on the unit, allowing for more of the older/wiser bulls to escape each year to grow into B&C status. The DWR does NOT care what size of bulls are killed, they just want X number of bulls killed, and if they know that archers kill at 30% on average they know how many tags to issue. They can damn sure predict closer the number of mature bulls killed with a known number of archers than the number of spikes killed by an unknown number of spike hunters. That is probably my biggest angst with the spike tags, they have no way of predicting the number of hunters on ANY LE unit, nor how many spikes will be killed on ANY given unit. That and it takes mature bulls out of the mix, and I have yet to meet an elk hunter who prefers hunting spikes over mature bulls. Those that enjoy the meat of a spike can hunt cows for the same result. And, once you get the bull:cow ratio down to more reasonable numbers more cows will need to be culled each year due to the increase in calves born each year, once again adding more opportunity to hunt elk in Utah w/o destroying 'quality'.

If used properly there isn't a better management tool than primitive weapon hunters. A case in point is the Wasatch Front, it is able to sustain thousands of hunters yet it produces bucks unequaled outside of the Henry Mountain LE unit in Utah. Why, because it is MANAGED with primitive weapons, yet provides tons of opportunity. I would be willing to prove it with elk with just one LE unit, give me a lower end unit and I'll make it primitive weapon only, and in a few years it will be producing MORE big bulls than now with more tags issued with balanced bull:cow ratios. Any takers?

PRO
 
hornhunter-
If it's not management that has made this states elk hunting what it is, what has done it?
How can it not be?
Hunting IS management! lol

I'm not saying our management is perfect by any means, but we have built up our herds and quality from a state that had only a handful of elk to what it is by managing through hunting and controlling the numbers through "management".

Comparing UT to AZ is not a good vision and is apples to oranges.
My point was definately NOT about B&C entries at all.
UT has 3 times (maybe even 4) as many elk as AZ, therefore AZ is a lot easier to manage for giant bulls.
AZ doesn't have high elk numbers all over the state that HAVE to be harvested like we do here.

If you want to discuss B&C bulls, last i looked UT had more entries in the last five years than a few states combined!
Our rifle hunters have been taking numerous 380+ bulls of every single unit during the rut for several years, yet we are STILL producing high numbers consistantly.
Maybe the days of taking 15 or more 400" bulls a year is over, but to expect that to be maintained is absurd.

My point is, don't spell gloom & doom on what the officials are doing until it has time to prove its self in either direction.
I remember asking "wtf??" when they first started the spike only program 20 years ago on the Manti & Wasatch, now those places are crawling with good bulls!! :)









48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Pro,
If the primitive weapons were such an effective management tool then why isn't the success rate there!!!! You cannot use a method of management, that clearly is not as effective as other ways!! That is exactly why the UTAH DWR uses the rifle seasons as management tools. Granted, I understand how much more opportunity that would create but, there is zero guarantee the double or tripling the archery tags that the success rate is going to go up high enough to be considered a management tool.

The archers always think they are getting screwed, anyway you look at it they still have wwwaaaaayyy more opportunities than due others!!! I have a LE ML tag this year and just in case everyone that is whining about the "SPIKE" archery hunters didn't notice, maybe they should look at what we have to deal with hhhmmmm..........Maybe 20,000 some odd deer hunters!(on my unit alone) The moral of the entire story is that, we all get screwed somehow and others are just more vocal about it....WHO CARES!!!

Maybe instead of arguing and bickering like a bunch of school girls, maybe certain people on here ought to read the proclamation and understand that they are not the only guys getting screwed!!!! Each and every year that the DWR/BOARD decide to try something, new it will always negatively effect some groups and positively effect some other groups. So on and so forth!!! We still need to stick together as sportsman and hash out all these issues as they arise!!

In my personal opinion the worst decision that the DWR made in 2009 is the central region rifle hunt starting 4 days after normal on Two of the units. That is completely assanine, but that is a whole nother thread that I may not have time for!!!!!

I just hope people read the PROC this year!!!
 
slam,

I have a brick wall, pipe corrals, a few good cedar posts, and a couple of big rocks. They are already bloody, but come on over and beat your head against them if you want? You will feel better if you do. I promise those cedar posts are much easier to talk to and reason with.;-)
 
i say to heck with spikes n go back to management hunts. sure some people were shooting some busted six bys but what was the percentage of bulls being killed that were non management as compared to the number that were management? I'm sure it's pretty low. Have each hunter fill out a mandatory survey and fine the piss out of the guys who shot busted six by's for not making danged sure of what they shot. It's called management for a reason. It's not easy to make sure of your bull before you shoot it and that's part of the understanding when one applys for a management hunt. I think the management hunts would have been a great idea if given the time to work. Just my two cents.



4a1df3ee0ef8dc53.jpg
 
Pro

you crack me up! Utahs deer managment is the worst in the west yet you support it. Utah has the best elk management in the west, or at least we kill the biggest bulls and yet you are against it. Seriously....what gives.
 
slam I completely agree with you that hunting is management. its hard to sit here and not try to use a state like az to compare against utah. utah has the potential to put out dozens of 400 bulls from every unit. what I have been saying is with better management strategies you could do that every year. your right though about apples to oranges, az has far less numbers of elk and yet offers far more tags. and it would be easy to say az would kill any state as far as b&c entries if all their hunts took place during the rut! but then that would destroy the quality in a hurry. how many rifle tags does utah have during sept? compared to 120 I think az gets? 400" bulls will come out of every unit there. and all that I've tried to say is that targeting spikes to control numbers is a joke, offer tags later in the year with lower success rates and you bring up hunter opportunity. the funny thing about utah is that everyone that has a le tag is running around trying to find a 350 bull, and not shooting 340 bulls, now that's management! in az on a late hunt that mentality is absent for the most part. most guys are tickled to death with a raghorn! I have never seen a state like utah, you guys are are the most do or die state when it comes to hunting, don't give credit to the dwr when the hunters are managing the herds far better!
 
horn,

AZ does not issue more tags. I dont know exact numbers by a long shot, but Utah gives some 2600 mature tags, 1000's of antlerless tags, 1000's of spike tags, and 1000's of any bull general season tags, and 100's of youth tags. Isnt AZ totally draw only? In Utah you can hunt elk every year. Look at the 6 point killed just posted in the elk forum. Pretty nice 6 point on an over the counter tag. Utah is not spike or 400 only. Not either/or.

Lets not go toe to toe horn. I may be off on my numbers. I have not studied this in any sort of length so if I am mistaken please correct me.
 
alright ktc you asked for it, was that an illegally cut cedar post you were hitting your head on? lol I will find out for sure when I get off work. but you can't compare all the unlimited tags utah gives out, any tag in az you at least have a great chance to harvest an animal. im talking le. or what utah's managing to keep the elk not just get them out of the area!
 
horn,

I know what you mean and you are right AZ has more tags at chances at mature bulls when talking LE areas. My point is Utah manages part of the herd for large bulls, but you have meat tags, you have get out with the family tags, you have tags for the kids, etc. If Utah managed like AZ it would significantly reduce opportunity and increase mature bull tags. So dont get your panties in a wad just yet!;-)
 
horn,

Keep in mind also that Utah has late hunts, but they do not work here like AZ if I understand it right. AZ has less snow and harsh winter conditions. November hunts in Utah, in some areas, are a brutal slaughter because of the snow.

I dont know about spike hunts. I can see arguments both ways. Like I said, I have no interest in shooting a spike. 15 years ago I was all over it, now I just dont care.
 
Slammy,
Here's a bow guy on your side. Utah has obviously done a pretty darn good job managing a lot of their units for BIG bulls ... when I first started hunting elk, Utah wasn't even on the map. Now it is right at the top, has been there for several years and is trying to figure out how to stay there. That's the tough part....and there won't be a consensus on how to do it. There will be fluctuations in the numbers and quality of bulls once you're there due to lots of factors ... many of which are discussed here. I'd say the DNR is trying to figure it out and it ain't easy .... being #1 isn't ever easy, ask Federer.
My biggest question on their tactics is why let the most efficient weapons (rifles) hunt during the height of the rut.... seems to me that that tactic probably does too good of a job on the big boys and thins out the best genetics a bit too much therebye skewing the reproductivity level down the genetic scale more than they would want. But then, I'm just a dumb ole rock hound who likes to hunt big animals in the fall and play girly man tennis in the off season to stay in shape ....
Steve
 
well lce said it, you need to get the majority of the rifle tags out of the rut. and yes az has mild winters compared to utah. and I agree with pro on using primative weapons as a more efficient management plan. lets look at nm unit 15, they give out almost 2000 tags in that unit alone, then lets add god knows how many unit wide land owner tags, and somehow remains at the top in nm for producing huge bulls! it does work! the point is you guys can manage your hunts/herds alot better and keep from needing spike only hunts! it just sounds like some morons plan to generate revenue, and the majority are thinking their doing a great job. lmao
 
ktc did your helmet fall off when you were hitting your head? lol jk but you could keep your unlimited general tags, cut back on le rut tags and significantly increase overall mature bull tags. and im sure you could increase the tags in multiples. so how would that mean less opportunitlies?
 
Lol!!!
Hows in Gods name do you properly manage an LE unit with archery equipment that has 7000 elk on it with almost half of those being bulls???

Ok ok i give up, lets put in roughly 2000 archery hunters during the rut...absolutely brilliant!!!!!!!!








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
no you give out 1000 spike tags! now that's brilliant! lmao with proper management you wouldn't have that problem now!
 
That IS a great idea, nice thinking! ;-)
But your too late, they have been doing it for years and STILL taking big bulls every year off those older units :)







48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
"If the primitive weapons were such an effective management tool then why isn't the success rate there!!!! You cannot use a method of management, that clearly is not as effective as other ways!! That is exactly why the UTAH DWR uses the rifle seasons as management tools. Granted, I understand how much more opportunity that would create but, there is zero guarantee the double or tripling the archery tags that the success rate is going to go up high enough to be considered a management tool."

The low success rate is why it can be such a great management tool. You can still get enough bulls killed, but not squash the opportunity for people to hunt. The DWR did NOT select the rifle hunt being held during the rut, that was planned by hunters. It had/has nothing to do with game management. If primitive weapons are a poor management choice due to low success rates, spike tags is even worse as they have even lower success rates. Think about it.

"The archers always think they are getting screwed, anyway you look at it they still have wwwaaaaayyy more opportunities than due others!!! I have a LE ML tag this year and just in case everyone that is whining about the "SPIKE" archery hunters didn't notice, maybe they should look at what we have to deal with hhhmmmm..........Maybe 20,000 some odd deer hunters!(on my unit alone) The moral of the entire story is that, we all get screwed somehow and others are just more vocal about it....WHO CARES!!!"

Let's not get carried away with hyperbole now. There is nowhere near 20,000 deer hunters on ANY LE elk unit in Utah, let alone during muzzle loader season. Do the math, which LE hunt as the most crowding, archers have MORE LE elk tags than the muzzy, have MORE deer hunters than the muzzy, and have MORE spike elk hunters (since muzzy has ZERO). Yet, muzzy hunters have more effective weapons. How one can say muzzy gets the shaft, pun intended, is comical. But, if you'll notice I say do away with ALL spike tags, and issue more primitive tags. Last I checked muzzle loader is primitive as well as archery.

Slammy, why do you care how many archers are in the field if it doesn't lead to 'over-harvest' of mature bulls? I'm being serious. Why do hunters think the only way to manage is to reduce the number of hunters in the field? That is hunter management, not game management. I say we as hunters should desire to issue as many tags as possible w/o having negative impacts on the herds, not look for ways to reduce the number of tags to as few as possible. You got it bass ackwards. As sportsmen we should only ask for decreases in tag numbers when it hurts the elk/deer herds, not because we want the mountain to ourselves.

The elk management tags were never given a chance to work, that is also NOT sound game management. I would much rather see management tags than spike tags.

PRO
 
Pro-
The reason i care is i read these forums daily and there are hundreds of complaints about people getting screwed by other hunters.
We are seeing it right now with the spike hunters interfearing with the LE hunters.
What is the difference of additional LE tags versus spike hunters?
Pressure is pressure and there will still be five trailcams on one wallow regardless of the antler size choice to harvest.

I still say move the spike hunters to seperate time and leave the LE archers alone to do what they enjoy....killing mature bulls. :)



48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
lol :) ok kill em all! its not my state! so honestly why should we care! I'll keep hunting inferior states and at least have a chance to kill 380 bulls every couple years rather than a couple times in my life!
 
pro-
Take the Dutton for instance, your favorite place.
How many Archery tags are there for elk, about 28 if i'm thinking right?

How many would they have to add to be as efficient as the rifle hunters are in September, a couple hundred, or more?

Low_countryelk has paid a fine price for a conservation archery tag to hunt in "solitude".
Would he be tickled to have 199 "friends" to compete with on a unit that is already tough as hell to hunt?

Again....move the spike hunt dates away and let these guys have the mountain :)





48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Pro,
I actually think I have had this same exact arguement with you before, it is going to come to the same outcome.... You think your way, I think my way!!!

I was was just simply throwing a number out on the 20,000 being hypothetical. But, in reality there could easily be 5,000 on one unit. Since DWR now pulls ML tags out of the same kiddy as rifle tags, as well as 10,000 dedicated that get their first choice of region!! If you say that is not possible then you are up in the night!!

Conceivably this could happen, and my LE ELK tag is getting thrown under the rug (all 47 of us), yet we are not moaning and groaning, we will have a fun hunt and enjoy the fact that I finally drew after 12 years!! There will be far more pressure on the ML hunts statewide than the archery hunts have gotten!!

On the flip side of the coin, I am 100% with Slammy on this issue. I think dates could be jogged a little bit here and there, but for the most part I am "okay" with how they are right now!! I have never killed a 380 inch bull, but I have killed many spikes and you guys have supposedly always been able to kill the infamous 380's. There are an elite few who have actually killed monster bulls, I for one have not!! So, if spikes and the opportunity to hunt "any bull" in the uintahs every year comes to me that is where I am riding the wave too!!
I may get lucky and kill a 320 in the uintahs, and you know that 320 from that MTN will be way more deserving to me than walking onto one of these "NON-PROSPEROUS" LE units that UTAH has!!!lol!!! I bet they have made you a penny or two, haven't they!!!
 
>I was was just simply throwing
>a number out on the
>20,000 being hypothetical. But, in
>reality there could easily be
>5,000 on one unit. Since
>DWR now pulls ML tags
>out of the same kiddy
>as rifle tags, as well
>as 10,000 dedicated that get
>their first choice of region!!
>If you say that is
>not possible then you are
>up in the night!!

I'm sorry, I was talking reality, my bad.

>Conceivably this could happen, and my
>LE ELK tag is getting
>thrown under the rug (all
>47 of us), yet we
>are not moaning and groaning,
>we will have a fun
>hunt and enjoy the fact
>that I finally drew after
>12 years!! There will be
>far more pressure on the
>ML hunts statewide than the
>archery hunts have gotten!!

I am not moaning about the number of LE tags on a given unit. I had my fun in the sun last year and I had a blast w/o a single complaint. I knew this IDIOTIC statewide spike plan was coming so I did what I could to ensure I drew out before the fiasco. Having said that, you must be using fuzzy math to claim there is more pressure on the elk herd during the muzzy hunt than during the archery hunt. They give out MORE LE archery tags than LE muzzy tags, they have MORE deer hunters in the field during the archery season than during the muzzy season, they have MORE spike hunters during the archery hunt than during the muzzy hunt, they have MORE rifle/muzzy hunters scouting during the archery season than during the muzzy season, they have FAR MORE recreational users during the archery season than during the muzzy season, and they start the grouse hunt during the archery season. Add it up and get back with me. Also, spike hunters chase bugles, deer hunters do not. So, when you add up the pressure keep that in mind. Now, if they had muzzy spike tags during the muzzy LE hunt you would come closer to the pressure that goes on during the archery season, but you would still come up short.

But, you are missing the bigger point. This should NOT be about weapon versus weapon. It should be about how to give maximum opportunity to hunt mature bulls while maintaining world class quality. You can't do that by issuing spike tags, and you can't do that by issuing the majority of tags to the most effective weapon during the most effective time(s) of year.

Slammy, there are MORE spike tags being issued under this statewide spike plan than the number of LE tags that would be needed to be issued if you moved the rifle hunt out of the rut and gave a higher percentage of tags to primitive weapons. I drew the AR301 tag twice, which was 200 tags plus all the LE tag holders who had tags plus the archery deer hunters. I connected on two bulls that went over 360, and I had plenty of space to have a very enjoyable hunt. That tells me something like I400 would work and be enjoyable for those who obtain a tag. Those who want fewer people could put in for a Premium LE tag just like now. The only difference is that MORE hunters could hunt mature bulls instead of being forced to either hunt spikes, go out of state, or stay home. We have 65,000+ elk, and we are not maximizing this awesome resource by issuing spike tags.

PRO
 

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