Big Bucks for CO Muley

P

Peashooter

Guest
Wanted: Trophy mule deer, 200? plus, willing to spend any amount of money it takes, illegal guiding and wildlife harassment by helicopter encouraged, the most work I'm willing to do is pulling the trigger and getting my picture taken. Will pay at least a $10,000.00 illegal outfitting?.ooops?.I mean??finders fee? to whomever can provide this service.

If the billionaire from Texas that bought the Colorado governors tag for muleys ran a classified ad, this is how it would read. If you called the number in the ad, it would most likely ring to the cell phone of a "well known guy in our hunting world"(name removed at Huntsonoras request). Anyone who has spent any amount of time in western Colorado since the end of 4th season has more than likely seen the dozens of people with Wyoming, California, and Utah plates that have received one form or another of this ad from these gentlemen. It's a shame to me that so many people are so willing and eager to help someone, in such an unsportsmanlike manner, exploit the most majestic specimens of this animal that we all love and supposedly are so concerned about its conservation. There is no hunting involved in this process, lowlifes simply spot the biggest and best while they are in their winter grounds, corner it, and wait for Mr. Moneybags to show up and pull the trigger so that they can collect their check. The lucky ones get to fly around half the state in a helicopter for a couple weeks spotting monsters, all the while on the tab, and probably payroll, of someone else. What a shame it is to not give these wonderful monarchs the respect they deserve for eluding clever hunters for years and years, instead they get sold out to the highest bidder at their most vulnerable time. I wonder whether or not any of these guys would do this, if the monster happened to be in their back yard, or better yet in their honey hole. I hope that what they do wears on their conscience, and hopefully catches up to them in ?hunting karma?, that they will never see a trophy while hunting their own tag ever again. In my mind it's a crime, even if the DOW refuses to recognize it.

Just my $.02
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-05 AT 07:37PM (MST)[p]If ONE mature muley gets harvested and that ONE mature muley in doing so puts $10,000.00 back into the fund FOR habit, then I could careless where the GOOD PERSON that forked up the $10,000.00 for the tag lives. Just because I can't afford to spend $10,000.00 on a tag doesn't mean I'm going to put a hex on the person that can.

I was fortunate enough to get drawn for a WA state MT Goat tag this year and couldn't get out and scout because my buddies son at work got in a bad auto accident and I couldn't get away. Thank god there was good people on this site that didn't know me from Adam that helped me out, without them I would have been screwed. Because I didn't scout on my own, did I deserve to get a mature billy?

Just my 2 cents
Tony
 
Butcherboy,

Did you pay 10,000, and have someone drive you to your goat, carry you up the hill, and hand you the gun in a gun vise allready set up for the kill shot! Then after you shot your goat did they go get the animal carry it up to the ridge and then come back and get you to take a picture of you and your trophy, then call the chopper and have them pick you up at the peak and take you to your avis rental car so that you could get back to the airport so you could get back to your home so you could change clothes and pick-up the family and go to the Bahamas and enjoy the rest of the day!!!

I know I am rambling but I agree with peashooter its not much of an accomplishment for anyone to do it this way, and I am going to asume that you took care of your trophy after doing the easy part, so yes you did deserve to get a mature billy!

Hope everybody enjoys sarcacism!!
 
ButcherBoy,
First of all, that 10k goes into some scumbags pocket, not the fund. Whether or not the billionaire from TX is a GOOD PERSON or not, I'm not sure....I've never met him, but I definately have a different set of hunting morals than he does.

Second, I never made any generalizations about people on this site. Doesnt sound to me like any of the kind folks that helped you at asked you for a dime in return. I think you definately deserved a good billy. Please dont take this as an attack on you....Unless you have been parked on Divide Road for the last 2 weeks looking for a buck for the gentleman from TX.
 
B_F_E,
It doesnt matter who I am, or where I live. Nobody cares, and I dont blame them.

Just a person who calls a spade a spade.
 
Pea, if you truly have the nuts to step up & call a spade a spade,
why are you lacking anonymity's nuts ?
 
Did the CO Gov. tag holder kill his deer then? How big?

What did he spend on the tag anyways?

If it was only $10,000.00. I'll be taking up a charity fund for all of those of you that want to pitch in for me next year:) I promise not to hire a guide or give out a finders fee!

I'll even give the money back if I kill anything under 250 nontypical or 220 typical:)

If I can raise $8000 here at MM I think I can scrounge up the other $2000!

C'mon guys it's all for a good cause!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-05 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]I dont think he did yet, judging by the number of people still in the hills looking. He paid $105,000 for the tag, plus bought 500 of 1000 raffle tickets(the most 1 person can buy) to win a tag for his buddy.

$10,000 is what he is his standing offer for anyone to illegally guide him to a trophy.
 
Now I see the rest of the story!!! Well I guess he is the one that has to live with himself. Has he earned his buck? I don't know I will not be with him on his hunt. Do you have a right to be pissed? Sounds like it. Good hunting to all.

Tony
 
I am torn on this one. On one side I know the money goes to conservation, studies, habitat improvements and to expand the rest of our opportunities. On the other, it is BS that somebody can pat themselves on the back for shooting a buck somebody else found and babysat. I think flying during any season pre-season, post season, or whatever should be illegal. A friend of a friend sat in that helicopter with him. So, I know a little about this.
 
Everybody needs to re-read the post peashooter is complaining about the Finders Fee, I didn't read about him complaining about all the money he paid for the tag and all the tickets he paid for.

Cmon guys I don't thing the finder is coing to donate his 10,000 to a good cause unless its for the finder!!!
 
The ethics this gentleman is showing is the bad side of hunting. In every sport or occupation there are bad examples. This guy obviously doesn't understand the reward of hunt. Some of my most favorite deer racks aren't the biggest, they are the ones I worked hardest to get. I agree with some of you that it is a bad example and not what is good about hunting. However you and I will benefit from the tag fees this gentleman paid. There are several trophy bucks poached every year that we receive nothing in return. So like everything in life there are good and bad things about it.

I will throw in 25.00 for Prism to start his fund. He should have 100,000 by the year 2080. Good luck with your fundraising efforts
 
Drummond,
Sorry about this post if it offends you, that was not my intent. I had forgotten that you had told me that you were on the hunt with these same guys last year in AZ. Not trying to knock you and your friends, just dont think its right.

After reading this post, it looks like its the same folks, same tricks, different year and state. http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...w_thread&om=8456&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes

I notice that in that post nobody really saw it as a problem, so I probably shouldnt even have bothered to post it. Just setting myself up for a beating by folks that I will more than likely never agree with on this subject.

Anyway, thanks for not deleting it this time, I do appreciate that.
 
Talk about misplaced anger, why in the world would you fault the guy that bought the tags instead of blaming the state for selling them. Seems a little backwards to me.

The man that bought the tags paid a ton of money for them, money that goes right back to the wildlife. He did his part, how he hunts them is up to him, at least he's hunting older age class bucks that are already mature. He's done a lot more for wildlife than the guy that plops down a couple hundred bucks and shoots the first forky he sees from the truck.

I'm not saying I agree with it, just wanted to throw another view point out there.

Drummond
 
I'll put $5 in the pot to get Prizm his desired tag...If I were a millionaire I'd be looking for a tag like this every year. I would hunt for the beast MYSELF though. I'd love to spend several months looking for big bucks...Steve
 
I'm with you Steve. I wish I could spend alot more time hunting like the lucky millionaire tag holder. Drummond is right about the money hellping all of us and I do think it helps to discourage poaching. All those people out there looking for that monster are obstacles for a would be poacher. Save the anger for the Fish&Game meetings. You can express your opinions where it might do some good if you feel so strongly.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-05 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]:) Thanks for the cash fellas. Just think it's like donating money to a good cause for wildlife. What we ought to all pitch in every year. One of us will get to go on a hunt of a lifetime each year. If the tag is gonna cost me over 100 grand we're gonna have to step it up a bit though:)

If all 8000 plus members pitch in just $15 I'll even have some change left over to buy a Utah conservation tag. You'll be helping wildlife in 2 states! And best of all we can show them rich boys there is strength in numbers! It'd probably even be a tax rightoff!

I'll be sure to throw back in my $15 next year. We'll just have to figure out who's turn it is on 2007. I'll be the guinea pig for the team the first year:)

So, here's how we'll do it. Everybody needs to purhase at least 3 DVDs, if you've already bought one, buy some for your buddies.

Know that all of the proceeds raised will be used to further conservation in Colorado and Utah.........and you get a free DVD to boot!:) Not to mention I'll record my conservation efforts (hunt) on another DVD to (help fund another hunt) document the success' of conservation tags.

Shoot, maybe I'll even get invited to the Utah super tag convention in 2007 to give a seminar on the benifits of conservation tags and take my 2 monster muleys on tour with the ISE shows........the possibilities are endless!!!!

Man I should of thought of this sooner!!! I can feel the momentum building....
 
Just a question here as I don't know the legality's of it all but what exactly is illegal about this? Is it illegal for him to pay a "finders fee"?

I know of someone who was offered $1000 the other day by the WA auction tag holder to put him on a big buck. He told him he had only heard rumors and that he couldn't help him.

I think it's fine for the DW's to auction these tags to raise money for conservation but I hate the idea of putting bounty's on these big bucks. I don't want to see anyone having any personal gain off of these tags. It's just not "fair chase" in my opinion. It just doesn't seem like a fitting end to a monster bucks life to be killed on the winter range by someone who doesn't care enough to find him themself.

On a more serious note for Prism's post, why not have us MM members make a contribution to the MDF or something? 8000 plus members contributing $5, $10, or more to the MDF would look pretty good! Brian could set something up through Paypal to accept the donations. Just a thought.

-Lowedog
 
I'll donate to Prism this year, but Im calling "dibbs" on 2007........now that thats taken care of, get in line....who wants 2008, 2009, 2010..............
 
Lowedog,
Thanks for your reply. Regardless of what they call it, finders fee, scouting fee, mapping fee...etc, it IS illegal.

Here are some quotes from Colorado Revised Statute.

Definition of an outfitter:
"those persons who, for compensation, provide equipment or personal services to such residents and nonresidents for the purpose of hunting and fishing"(CRS 12-55.5-101)

Definition of Compensation:
""Compensation" means making, or attempting to make, a profit, salary, or increase in business or financial standing, or supporting any part of other programs or activities, to include receiving fees, charges, dues, service swaps, or something which is not strictly a sharing of actual expenses incurred from amounts received from or for outfitting services rendered or to be rendered."(CRS 12-55.5-102)

that is what I'm making my stand on.

The comment has been made that all these guys being in the hills is discouraging poaching. I feel the opposite of that, if these guys dont mind breaking the law by illegally guiding these guys, then whos to say that they dont mind breaking the law regarding poaching?

As far as making more donations to the MDF, I have been an MDF member for many years, but after seeing what the Muley Crazy folks have been up to the last couple years, and now seeing that the MDF has them publishing the mag, I am concerned about the future direction of the MDF.

again, just my oppinion, dont really expect anyone to agree.
 
I wonder what would happen if nobody helped this guy out. Would he end up doing some leg work on his own or let the tag go to waste. Is he a true hunter or just a shooter. How much do you think the tag would go for next year if this happened. Things to ponder. Good post gives us all something to think about. Can't wait untill next year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-05 AT 08:54AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-05 AT 08:50?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-05 AT 08:49?AM (MST)

This entire thread is why I think the Mule Deer Foundation has lost its direction. I am not trying to change the focus of this post, only voicing my thoughts on the subject of elitist hunting. I think organizations like the muledeer foundation should do less marketing of trophy heads and more education and habitat work. The MDF actually promotes this kind of new hunting ethic by pushing the outrageous, out of touch and unethical trophy mule deer hunts. Marketing trophy hunting, like it does, leads to this type of markenting and customer service.

And dont throw me a red-herring by saying "guns dont kill people, people kill people, or, should we ban cars, they kill people too." dont even go there! It's a bullchit argument.



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
>And dont throw me a red-herring
>by saying "guns dont kill
>people, people kill people, or,
>should we ban cars, they
>kill people too." dont
>even go there! It's
>a bullchit argument.

You lost me on that one.

Drum
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-05 AT 09:35AM (MST)[p]Drummond,
Its funny to me that you say I have misplaced anger on this subject. If you would re-read my posts you would see that my gripe is all these guys that are breaking the law trying to help him. I would have thought that you would understand this based on the incident where that outfitter poached "your deer" this year. Heck, you even wanted to sue him. I just think that you care alot more when the illegal activities of others directly affect you, but if they dont, or if you happen to know the guys doing it, then its not that big of a deal.

BTW...TFinalshot, I couldnt agree more. Good post.
 
To each his own. I don't call it hunting, but its not me doing it. Just like a particular moose being bought and sold in Utah. Its on a ranch, the ranch has a tag, sells tag to guy for x money, guy flies there, shoots on video, then 12 guys help load in truck. Guy gets back on jet, horns arrive taxidermied 3 mos later. Thats not moose hunting for me, but who am I to judge. As for the mule deer foundation, it takes money to do what it does, and most people don't just hand it over in donations, so it sells trophy hunts or raffles them off as fund raisers. If every one who hunts muledeer pitched in 25 bucks, to save the species, it probably wouldn't have to do that.
 
It seems to me that some of the guys on here have a real problem with guided hunts. They just can't seem to give credit to someone who uses an outfitter or guide to help them find their animal.
I would wager that there are several hundred of us MM'ers that are guides and outfitters that make our living or at least a good part of it from hunting. I think it is a slap in the face to us to discredit guided hunts like you do. Guided hunts have been, and always will be a part of hunting and our western heritage.
Some people live too far away to scout for an animal, and in the case of the governors tag holder he's a business man. Why waste your own time when you could hire someone to help you do it that is much better at it than you are. Much the same reason many of us don't prepare our own tax returns. It is better to let a pro help so we get the most bang for the buck.
It's just plain good business sense, especially with the amount of money invested, to hire some help.
I also believe that the guides are all licensed and bonded for the state of Colorado. The guy that finds the buck will probably be hired by the outfitter before he shows the buck to them so that he is working for a licensed outfitter. As long as you have your permits, and your license you are not outfitting illegally are you?
I am not a part of the group, nor do I know them, but I think too many of us are too eager to bash someone because they can afford to hunt a hunt that is out of our league money wise. I guarantee if you had the money you would do it too, and you would have help finding the deer too!
Travis
 
It seems to me that nearly everyone is misunderstanding the original gripe of this post. The act of "posting a bounty" for a large buck is what I understand that peashooter doesn't like, and I have to agree. The guy puts the word on the street that he will pay a finders fee of $10,000 to "anyone" that can tell them where a big buck is. Every lowlife for three states around rush the area looking to make an easy 10 grand. Bucks they don't feel are big enough for the big guy are now located and quite possibly get poached by someone else. The deer don't get a break. It just motivates too much "looking" by people that don't have tags.

I sure don't see anything wrong with guiding and outfitting or auction tags. The collateral affect is the problem.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
The guy must like to hunt a little, or he could just buy a head off of ebay like so many other folks do. ; )

Hey Deerking, could you use 10 grand. You might be able to upgrade to the FZ30 and a couple of extra memory cards.
 
I have encountered the army of scouts. I have been personally offered the $10,000 for a specific buck. I said no thanks. My wife wasn't happy about that. I agree that it is a corruption of ethical hunting and outfitting. I think in most cases it is actually illegal but not enforced. Forest Service and BLM outfitting permits are generally restricted to specific areas, times, activities and number of clients. The activities of the "army" are putting enormous pressure on wintering wildlife, over vast areas of public land. It's all ridiculously out of proportion to the tiny number of actual hunting licenses involved. I think there should be a serious attempt by the authorities to rein in this type of activity. I can't really blame the tagholders or the scouts for doing all this now. But I sure would like to see it stopped.

The flying part I find absolutely horrible. I have seen outfitters flying to look for sheep. I turned them in but nothing could be done. I think flying with intent to spot game for hunting should be illegal for three months prior to actually hunting. Big bucks are tough to find. That is the way it should be. Flying takes away all of the natural advantages that difficult terrain and cover can give to a big buck.
 
What's the guys name and #, I got a pretty nice jackalope spotted. I think he's only about a 5 1/2 year old!
Hell with 10k in my pocket, I could pay the fime if I get caught shooting the big one in my yard!

JJ
 
If I had more money than I knew what to do with, I'd own a few conservation tags every year, and yes I'd gladly pay a bird dog fee if necessary. This guy is just using his resources. I'm pretty sure come tax season every person on this site is going to take full advantage of every tax benifit they can. This guy is no different. He is using evey advantage he can to score on a big muley. He probably won't make my top 10 muley hunters list, but to each his own.

Mike
 
Come on Drum, you know what I mean. Someone is bound to say that the MDF is a conservation organization and what people do with the tags is their business.

The real point is that the MDF has lost its direction and now is part of promoting the "trophyizing" and closing of the American west to long-time sportsmen and outdoor gazetteers.

It wont be long till colorado, utah, wyoming, idaho and montana treat big game like they now do in new mexico and texas. It will be a damn shame when that day comes.




"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
I agree with Peashooter's original point that the "finder's fee" constitutes illegal outfitting, and the Colorado Statutes clearly cover this.

I don't fault a wealthy guy for buying the tag or trying to use his resources to increase his odds of success, but he must operate within the bounds of the law. In many cases in the recent past, neither the hunter nor the finder are doing so, and the DOW has been unbelievably lax in enforcing the law.

As a matter of statute, the only way this "finder's fee" could possibly be legal is if 1) the finder is a private landowner and the buck is taken on his land (Colorado statutes do not require an outfitting license for a private landowner or his direct employees operating solely on land he owns), or 2) if the finder is an outfitter or employee of the outfitter whose public land permit specifies outfitting activities at the time of year the hunt takes place, and the buck is killed within the bounds of the outfitter's permit area.

That, I know for a fact, has not been the case for several Gov Tag holders in the past, and the DOW hasn't been terribly concerned about the details. Could be that 20% they get off the top of the auction proceeds which helps them look the other way....

In any case, the notice of a finders fee being offered has brought a lot, and I mean a lot, of people out of the woodwork and deer are being pressured on winter range like never before. Between the lookie-lou's who normally would be home watching football, the significant snowfall and cold temps Colorado is getting very early this year, and the ridiculous competition among shed hunters far, far too early in the spring, we'll be lucky to have a decent buck left standing by summer.
 
what is the answer???????

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-05 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]D13er,
Honestly I think our DOW needs to step up and curtail this activity now! Having seen the progression of this over the last couple years, I cant imagine how bad it will be next year. Seems like they just keep seeing what they can get away with, then push the envelope a little more the next time.

I also think that a clear message needs to be sent to the Muley Crazy guys that this kind of activity will not be tolerated by the states. They are the billionaires right hand, and the ones with the connections, and seem to be motivated by the fame and money associated with this kind of activity.

I personally am getting as many names, license plates numbers, and any other information regarding this issue, and passing it on to the Colorado DOW. If they ever decide to do the right thing, hopefully they will have everything they need to do it right.
 
Money rules, and the guy with the most money makes rules...........I've been to the Safari club show and have seen the crowd at the Muley Crazy booth, all of them slapping each other on the back and stepping on their own tongues. It ain't good but the DOW likes the dollars and are afraid the big spenders will quit spending if the "producers" are presured.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I tend to agree with peashooter. Too many eyes, too many flying machines, too much cash. That is the problem. Unfortunately, even the MM moderators stick up for those who use such means to harvest big bucks. Plain and simple. MDF published by those charged/convicted of abusing the animal MDF is trying to conserve.?. That is what you get when the higher-ups in MDF are money driven. There are wayyyyy too many problems with the Conservation Tag / MDF relationship then to hash them out here.
 
Peashooter,

Its frustrating that you continue to try and turn this into a personal attack on the "Muley Crazy crew". Ryan has been in Kanab working his fingers to the bone trying to work on 2 publications. I am not defending him, merely stating facts. I left you my number a couple of times the other day and have yet to receive a phone call, I could have explained a few things that I am sure would clear this up for you. Unfortunatly, it seems that some people get something in their head and refuse to try and get the facts. I can certainly understand and appreciate your concern for the mule deer, I share a lot of the same concerns and would like to see some changes in the system to make it a little bit more fair in a number of areas. Blaming Muley Crazy is NOT the answer to your problems.

As for this finders fee, this is public land and if somebody wants to get out and look for a big deer and sell the information to somebody that is their perogative. These guys out here looking are not on the payroll so to speak, they are out here on their dime using their vacation to spend time on public ground. They are not being compensated to guide, they are being paid a finders fee to relenquish information. Its no different than selling a personal item. I can guarantee that no laws are being broken, with the noteriety that this tag receives I promise that all of the bases have been covered in terms of whats legal and whats not legal. Agree with it or not, no laws have been broken.

Its sad that you have to revert back to these attacks because it really detracts from your very valid arguement. I hope you take the time to polish up a bit more on your facts, it will help you immensly in your attempt to get things changed.

Drummond
 
Huntsonora,
I appreciate your civil response, as well as I appreciate your oppinion on this. I know Ryan is a buddy of yours, and as I stated earlier, my intent is not to offend you by attacking your friend. Problem is that when I talk to the guys crawling all over the hills, there is one name that ALWAYS comes up.

I'm about as polished up on my facts as a person with my intellect can be. I encourage you to click here: http://198.187.128.12/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0 and read the facts about the legallity of this in black and white. If a loophole has been found in some grey area to get around this law, I dont care. I am going to do somthing about this, and I dont plan on winning any popularity contests in the process. I just feel that these creatures which I love so much deserve better. They are being hunted down like dogs on their winter range, by lowlifes that are breaking the law, with no more respect for them than the dollar signs they see looking through their binos. It's nothing personal against Ryan. If it were my own brother I would feel the same way. Get it? They are more than money to many folks.

Thats about all my Peabrain can comprehend, but I think it makes sense. I am sorry I did not call you, I appreciate you passing on your number, but I wanted everything heard in this public forum, so that your side or mine, everyone will have all the facts.
 
dearbedead:
Travis,
How did the late bull tag go? I would have been happy to swap you my late deer tag. The weather favored your unit, but really hurt us on the North side of the river.
In regards to the thread. I don't think we can compare the average hard working, law-abiding guide, like yourself to the bounty hunting that is being refereed too here. Personally I don't have any problem with someone choosing to use a guide to better his/her chance at taking a better animal; if that's what it's all about! However; in my opinion, the extent that the high rollers are taking things, in the name of conservation is a charade. There is no doubt, in my mind that when someone pays 100 plus thousand dollars for a tag, adds a finder?s fee, general expenses and the likes, well . . . lets just say I've seen first hand where legalities end up. Bounty hunting and conservation. What a oxymoron!
And for the record, the MDF lining up with probationers? Did anyone think that through?
 
Peashooter,
You hit the nail on the head! These animals do deserve better! I can't believe anyone that claims to care about muledeer would add their stamp of approval... conservation my a..!!!!!!!
 
WTF..what a bunch of sour pusssssses. We are talking one deer to be harvested! Maybe? I bet the hunter will eat his tag if he doesn't see something that churns his gut. Some of you sound like you have first hand knowledge that paraplanes and helicopters and B15s are flying all over the place looking for the Taliban. You guys need to worry about next years draws instead of being driven by jealousy and envy. Are they (guides, pilots or others) really harrasing the deer? Or, is it that when the deer hear the roar of a motor(like a quad or flying machine) run like hell into a deep steep canyon? I really don't understand it when a guy has a premium tag that a certain percentage of others cant handle it. "Its not fair"!!!!!!! GO ahead and blast me.
 
Huntsonora:

I read your post really must disagree that "if somebody wants to get out and look for a big deer and sell the information to somebody that is their perogative." It is not their prerogative: go to the link Peashooter provided and read the Colorado Revised Statutes. It is clearly illegal to provide such a service without having an outfitters license in the state of Colorado and the outfitting permit with the appropriate public land agency in that area.

You are right that anyone can go look around public land and find these bucks, and I don't think anyone on this site has a problem with that. But as soon as they share that info with a tag holder and receive anything of value, they have run afoul of the law. The statute is clear, you don't have to actually guide the hunter in the field--just giving him a map of the spot is enough to constitute "providing a personal service" to aid in hunting or fishing.

My point is not about the Muley Crazy crew or any other individual per se, but rather the fact that a wealthy guy is making it clear to the entire hunting community he is willing to part with a significant chunk of money if people get off the couch and go find him a monster buck. Ethics and morals aside, what he's done is put a significant amount of people in the field who normally would not be out there. And they are there under the premise that they will get paid if they find the right animal. Indeed, many have shared their finds and have come up short, but just because the hunter decided to pass on a particular animal does not mean the finder didn't participate in an illegal outfitting activity, and the hunter solicited same.

There are undoubtedly many unforeseen effects on wintering mule deer herds with this amount of increased attention and number of people in the field during a time when these deer need to be left alone with the serious business of winter survival. These wintering herds are concentrated on relatively small acreages at this time of year, and movement through snow coupled with low temps and low-quality forage (as compared to spring/summer diets) spells real trouble for these deer when they are easily pressured and most vulnerable.

To the question D13er posed "What's the answer?" Let the Gov Tag holder hire an outfitter and hunt a good area or areas, but stop the offering of finders fees. There is no reason any one person should be allowed to create a flurry of activity across extensive land areas for extended periods of time. Cowkiller had it right: there is way too much pressure being applied to the resource for so few tag holders, particularly during a critical period of the year.
 
That statute would include "scouting" services such as AntlerQuest? They would have to have an outfitters licens and more than likley need to have the insurance and bonding as well? Would that limit them to a certin area ect....?

JJ
 
Some fellow stop by my parents house after he saw our shed pile outside(western Colorado). Gave some song and dance about giving him a call if we knew where a good one was and left his business card. My mother thought it was cool. I told her it is illegal outfitting.

I am as broke as I have ever been in my life and I wouldn't call that guy if they were foreclosing my house and there was a 300" NT bedded by the side of the road.
 
On second thought, I am gonna go try and find something so I can get my picture taken with a hunting VIP. They can keep the money as long as there is a picture.
 
You guys are directing your anger in the wrong direction. We all have concerns about OUR declining Mule Deer herds. Increased pressure on wintering deer is just one of them. The one deer or less per year for that money is not a big deal. We need to all help where we can. Go to local land use meetings, game & fish meetings and make our voices heard. If you don't like the Special Tag program let them know. Write letters to the game and fish but don't drag other peoples names that you don't know much about into it. I appreciate all the magazines that glorify our treasured Mule Deer. If there wasn't a market they wouldn't be there. Some of the people you try to drag down do more for the benefit of Mule Deer than 99% of the people on this site!
 
I agree that the animals deserve better. Last time I checked scouting was a large part of the fun involved with hunting, for me at least. But hey if it makes good "business sense" then go for it, that's what hutings all about, killing the biggest buck possible, right?
 
There are some interesting questions concerning guiding without a license.

Official interpretation of the statute should really come from the CDOW liason to the attorney general, but then again wildife managers interpret the law every day as to whether they write tickets or not. One game warden would issue a ticket, another might not.

You've got "full service scouting services", you've got "limited scouting services" like the Big game CD software, and then you have guides.

Personally, I think if someone finds a specific animal and relays specific location, then the law should classify that as acting as a guide.

A quick litmus test is to report a suspected infraction, and ask for an interpretation. Regulatory changes could be, and are frequently made. Just write a letter to the wildlife commission or a letter to head of enforcement at the CDOW. Perhaps as the industry moves in this direction more clarification or regulation should be evaluated.
 
Some great posts and information with minimal flaming. I can tell you that people involved in this are paying attention to what's said around here.

Its a shame that there seems to have evolved a "no holds barred" approach to killing a buck when someone has purchased a Governor's tag for tens of thousands of dollars.

Its a priviledge given to someone in exchange for a lofty sum. Its seems to be a priviledge that is being exploited to the nth degree all with the disclaimer of lots of dollars being raised for deer and deer research, propagation, projects etc.

Isn't it enough that you basically have 5 plus months to hunt, including the peak of the rut and including all the month of January when deer have moved onto winter range? A hunter could have the odds stacked any greater in his favor and the most challenging aspect of it would be to have the ability to pass up fantasic bucks the most will never kill in a lifetime for the genetic anomaly, giant world class mule deer.

Helicopters, finder's fees, bounties, lobbying DOW higher-ups to open seasonal winter range closure areas when you have a virtual free-for-all in the whole state all seem to go above what most would agree as the ethical "limit" for the person who bought this priviledge.

Its too bad that the chase for the majestic creatures does not measure up to the granduer that these bucks possess. It shames the whole situation.
 
P.S. To whomever sends Doyle Moss his updates from this site. No, I wasn't talking about him nor was I when I referred to "those who dropped out of high school to become Governor's tag deer guides". Try not to be such a little suck-az, pull your head out of his buttocks and read between the lines.
 
Huntsonora,
Your post #42 was perfect. Spoken like a true guide.


When I was in Colorado for 3rd season, all I heard was "Muley crazy guys this," "Muley crazy guys that," "Those guys are from Muley crazy." I mean WTF! Can someone explain to me what or who is a "Muley crazy guy," and is it possible for me to become one?

Like Buckspy said, The Gov. tag holder has until the end of January to hunt, the odds are in the hunters favor big time. Why does the Gov. tag holder need an army of people finding deer for him? Take a couple weeks out of your busy schedule and go to Colorado and actually do some hunting for yourself and kill yourself a monster. I bet it would be a lot more rewarding that way.

Shotgunjim.
(Wanting to become a Muley crazy guy.)
 
Sounds like some of the things people will do for the short lived ego trip of taking an above average trophy are pretty frickin pathetic. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to take a high scoring record book animal, and I'd tell everyone that would listen about it, but where the hell will it all stop? For some, there ain't no hunt left in hunting. mtmuley
 
Dinkshooter-If there was a 300" nontypical across the street from your parents house would your little brother be able stand it until he shed? I remember the look in that dude's eyes and I know he has it bad. He is a mulie shed psycho. Probably has scars from sleeping with sheds.
 
Sitting up here in the Great White North, I sure am glad I'm not seeing this kind of activity in my neck of the woods for muleys. BUT, sadly it's not that far away. Sounds like the Premier's sheep draw had everyone coming out of the woodwork looking for a Monster Bighorn. Definately not my style by any means. Did hear the Alberta Premier's tag ended in some sort of justice. Original tag holder paid big money and then threw a hissy fit when he heard the Metis have been killing rams on the Cadomin over this past year. He backed out thinking there were no big rams left. They sold another tag for dirt cheap and the guy ended up talking a SLAMMER. Still not my kind of a quality hunt but at least big money didn't win. :)
 
Peashooter hit the buck in the breadbasket with his post. Huntsonora doesn't have a leg to stand on with his guide mentallity and desire to run in the big boys circles.

Not to jump on Buckspy's wagon, but his post also nailed it. I don't have much to add except that now you can see what BS we have to put up with in Utah for the past 10 years.
 
My concern is that the "Finders Fee" makes hunting look bad. We all know there are sportsmen, anti-hunters, and then the folks who don't hunt, but don't mind it.
If they heard about this "Finders Fee" and how it works, how would they view hunting?
Are we making more enemies?

I have no problem with guys wanting to hire A guide, but to have 100's of people from all over crawling the winter ranges to find a deer or elk for someone to fly in and kill.....???????

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-05 AT 00:36AM (MST)[p]I came into this thread late and didn't take the time to read every post, but this talk about the Mule Deer Foundation has me wondering...I have a renewal notice sitting on my desk right here in front of me, and I was about to write a check and send it off. I don't want to support this finder fee type of "hunting." I don't want to support any organization that supports the commercialization of wildlife in any way. So should I not be giving my money to the MDF? I'm also an RMEF member. What about them? That membership is up for renewal also. Would be great if someone could help direct me as to where my money would do the most good.
 
Good question Bob D. Do you think that the RMEF should have spent $22,000,000.00 on their new building with 93000 sq ft of storage space??? All these groups start out noble and become just another big money business with lots of staff.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
You should do your own research and come to your own conlcusions, that's what I had to do.

After spending two years watching the organization, hosting two meetings to start a chapter and speaking a great deal with certain board members, I decided that it was not a wise place for me to put my time or my money. In my view the MDF is a buch of guys whoes interest is in raising big deer to kill, period. If I'm wrong then they should change their tactics, because this is the conclusion I came too.

I also was not at all impressed by the acting directors responced to me when I brought the subject of marketing trophy hunts, up with him and the executive board. They basicly told me that I was not qualified to be critisizing them for their overt capitalization of trophy hunt tags. If anyone is interested in the letters, send me a PM and I'll email you what they had to to say to me.


I personally, would not give them one cent until they change their marketing stratigies and get off the "trophyizing" of mule deer.


"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
Until the Colorado DOW does something to restructure the landowner tags, this kind of thing will keep happening without the need for auctions or raffles for governor's tags. The intent of the landowner tag was so these poor starving ranchers could get a tag and shoot some meat for their family...yeah right. Now they command a premium of $10k is some units, meanwhile the working stiffs wait 4-10 years to draw it.

The problem is, these tags are good for the whole unit, not restricted to the 900 acre hayfield that qualified the rancher to get the tag. I know last year in one unit in Colorado, there was the same thing going, a bunch of mulie crazy guys running around so someone with a landowner tag could take a good buck. Funny part is, I know that unit and the honey holes and would tell those guys where a 150 class buck was for any amount of money. I guess I actually respect big mulies and hope they make it through the season. Especially if I don't have a tag in my pocket.
 
Has it come to Monster Muleys becoming Monster MONEY? The extremes some of the wealthy "hunters" are going to is mind numbing. And to think I was happy with my tag in Montana this year. What an idiot I am. I killed a high 170's buck. I suck bad. mtmuley
 
hey i know in colorado where there are some bucks with 200" and bigger i also know of one 300"buck
 

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