Colorado New Hunts

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blacktailBC

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Has anyone heard if Colorado will for sure have the "rumored" early high country rifle hunts in unit 54,55 and the flattops units this year? I heard rumor of these additional high country seasons, but I have not seen anything concrete. Anyone heard anything?
 
Its proposed for Deer.

The 5000 member Colorado Bowhunters Association is opposed to it, if the season falls within the established archery season. Why the CDOW thinks it is continually acceptable to mix weapon types is beyond me....other western states don't do it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-05 AT 08:01PM (MST)[p]A fourth season in these units would be too much pressure on those bucks if there was any significant snowfall and usually by the fourth season there is quite a bit of snow. The winter range is too open and the big bucks too vulnerable. I don't believe Colorado should have any fourth buck seasons because of the vulnerablity issue. However if they do open one, it would be an absolutely kick-azz tag to draw. It would seriously test a hunter's ability or lack-there-of in field judging and his willingness to pass up nice ones for a real slammer.

The proposal for for both a HCB rifle hunt and adding a 4th rifle season for bucks.
 
Wyoming has overlap in archery and rifle. Utah has some overlap with archery and rifle hunts. I also believe that Oregon has some overlapping between archery and rifle.
 
The High Country Buck hunts seem to me like a good compromise of getting a quality hunt and not over harvesting the animals. If you think of it not many guys that are going to hike in at 12000 ft. are going to settle for a 22 in. deer. Therefore the harvest per hunter on these hunts is probably lower than on later hunts. But you still have the chance (if you work hard) to at least see some good bucks. I don't really see where it would dramatically effect or concern the bowhunters because there is very few tags given out for these hunts.
 
" I don't really see where it would dramatically effect or concern the bowhunters because there is very few tags given out
for these hunts. "

Yea, right! Like I said, 5000 bowhunters who represent 30,000 bowhunters in this state are opposed to any further intrusion into the existing archery hunting seasons!

In theearly season archery hunts, we currently have rifle hunter intrusions by bear hunters, early season cow hunters, high country deer hunts, PLO licenses, and then there is ranching for wildlife. Frankly, it is BS!! I guess it is going to come to a lawsuit to get this thing resolved. I didn't even mention the 15,00 muzzleloaders....

If you can show me in the Wyoming, Utah, and Oregon regs where rifle and archery overlap on public land hunts, I'd really like to see it.
 
The fourth season deer hunts in the Gunnison Basin have already been approved, but because of timing, the high country hunts won't go through until 2007. If you've got 12 points you best be ready to spend them. However, all of this depends on the population counts and classifications that are going on now. After a couple of years of these late hunts the big buck numbers will be about in line with the rest of the state. We'll watch and see...Steve
 
I get really tired of bowhunters and the CBA complaining about rifle and muzzleloader hunts going on during "their" season. The Colorado bow season is a month long. If bowhunters can't stand a few other hunts going on during that time, I have a solution. Let's have a one week bow season at the beginning of September with no other hunts concurrent. At the end of that week, bow season would be over for the year. After all, we wouldn't want to mix weapons types out in the field. what do you think bowhunters? Don't like it? Well then quit complaining about the great situation that you have now.
 
Hey cowkiller,

Guess your happy with as many a six different rifle seasons with a duration of say about 5 days? How does that inspire and recruit hunters? How does that protect hunting long term? If a "new hunter" goes hunting for 2 days a year, or 4 weekends a year....which one is apt to continue hunting for years? which one is apt to be discouraged and quit?

I will never quit being an advocate of long seasons, maximizing hunter days in the field, and quality low hunter density hunts.

"Get really tired" is how you ended up with a 5 day rifle season.

Look around, montana has a 6 week archery season, and a 5 week rifle season, and no weapons mixing.
 
Hopper,
I don't really think you are going to get a whole lot of sympathy here, or from any judge on a law suit. Bowhunters have it great.....they can hunt any season, in just about any state, and they get to hunt early and late with just about no competition. The 5,000 people in the bow club really are a tiny,tiny drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of thousands of rifle hunters out there looking for a quality experience.
Here is a different take on it for you. Rifle hunters during the early high country seasons don't really like a bunch of bowhunters going around spooking every bachelor herd in the basins, and "sticking" 2 or 3 bucks until they finally get one. Especially after they have burned 4 or 5 points to get the hunt, when the bowhunter hasn't. The rifle hunters don't like the disturbance of their hunt either, but that is the way it is. Welcome to the club.
 
An example of Oregon's firearm seasons that overlap the bow seasons for deer.
Cougar
Black bear (general as well as some controlled)
Antelope (buck and some either sex hunts)
Mt. Goat
Rocky Mt. Sheep
High cascade rifle buck hunt
There is a list of about 40 rifle elk hunts that overlap the general bow season on pg. 88 of the regs.
Numerous antlerless hunts for elk and deer.
 
BC,

hundreds of bowhunters are already hunting the high country early season mulies. So lets screw it up for them, by putting a handful of rifle out there? Makes perfect since to me....NOT!

Bowhunters use decoys, and don't wear orange....

If you noticed the post by cowkiller, he is tired of hearing the CBA message, we are like a broken record, and we won't go away. There is no rifle hunter organization in Colorado, hence the 5 day seasons.

If you want to hunt the early season high country bucks, guess what, you already can! Just pick up a bow and try a real challenge! Are you up for it, or do you want to keep relying on that crutch (rifle)

What will happen in the end depends on the commission, but I can guarantee you bowhunters will be vocal. We have no problem with a high country hunt occuring after the existing archery season.
 
"hundreds of bowhunters are already hunting the high country early season mulies. So lets screw it up for them, by putting a handful of rifle out there? Makes perfect since (sense) to me.....not!"

hmmmm.....so basically what you mean is catering to a very small group of people compared to a huge group?


Kind of like catering to the bowhunters as apposed to the vast majority (rifle).

My .300 weatherby Alaskan Wilderness Rifle is too expensive to be used as a crutch, and I have no desire to have a petty argument on this forum.

Simply pointing out that the bowhunters in Colorado or any state have it darn good and should realize it. If you don't want to listen to the facts (hence post 13) then thats ok too.
 
I have always wondered what some of the premier muley units in Colo would produce if there weren't any early high country hunts? The same summer timbeline bowls get hammered year after year and most of the guys that draw these tags are searching for above average bucks. The density of deer in most of these alpine spots is extremely low to begin with (in Colo).

The Greys and Wyo Ranges are a good example of early high alpine hunts going sour! The bucks can only take so much hunting pressure before quality is lost.
 
Your the one not listening to the facts BC. The fact is there is an existing high country season already, its called bowhunting season and if you want to hunt it you can by using a bow. I personally find it quite inspiring to get within 10-20 yards before shooting.

Thanks for the information on Oregon's lack of hunting values. I didn't realize they mis-managed hunters so poorly.

On the Commission docket as well is the addition of 4th season rifle hunts in NW Colorado. I am sure all you guys who support the high country hunts want that one too. Great, lets blast them early, then blast the hec out them late when all of the quality bucks are on winter range and most vulnerable.

Catering to rifle hunters really doesn't happen here because there is no Colorado rifle hunters assoc., proff again in the 5 day seasons.

In terms of "how good bowhunters have it", I count my blessings every morning, yet there is no guarantee they will continue, without effort to head off obvious and continued efforts to deteriorate . Bowhunting "forefathers" lobbied hard to get what we have today, and current bowhunters owe it to them and the next generation to keep it. Nothing personal, I am just passionatley opposed to further deterioration and degradation of Colorado archery hunts.
 
Hey nothing personal here either, I just would like to see more early high country seasons to advance my cause. You obviously don't care about having early high country rifle seasons. I really don't care if they have they have a bow season. You know to tell you the truth I have been on several early high country hunts and I have never seen one of the "hundreds" of bowhunters, and it is not because they were so stealthy I couldn't see them blah, blah. They just weren't there. Never saw one at the gas station, no bows in back of trucks etc.

I really have no problem with the five day seasons. Fine with me.

In regards to the early high country seasons degrading the herd, and all the guys who want early high seasons want 4th seasons too. Well now you are reallllllllly reaching for something there. Most of the guys that like to hunt early and high aren't really going to hunt the sagebrush from the atv, with four thousand other hunters. Also how could the EHC hunts really degrade the herd? There is only between 20-40 tags for an entire unit on the EHC hunts. Say they are 50% successful, so thats 10-20 bucks a year. A drop in the bucket compared to the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th seasons. Like I said before.....A quality hunt without raping the herd. As far as the same basins getting "pounded", I don't think it happens. I have been "there", in those basins and there is no "pounding" going on. With that few tags there is a hell of a lot of basins in one unit. There may be only 1 or 2 bucks from some basins being taken, maybe none in a lot of others. You can say that you wonder what the herd would be like without EHC seasons all you want, but you can say that about anything....I wonder what the herd would be like with no hunting???? Gee it would be way better.

Hey it could be worse you could have 10 million general elk hunters crawling the woods during your limited entry rifle hunt that took 10 years to draw.
 
Grasshopper,
Oregon hunts have been shown in an earlier post.

Wyoming opens their archery seasons on Sept 1 and go for 4-8 weeks. Then many areas have a general deer hunt that starts on Sept 15. Some sheep hunts start Aug 15 and go for 4 weeks. Definate overlap.

Utah has a rifle pronghorn hunt which overlaps the archery hunt, some moose hunts, and a few rifle cow elk hunts which overlap the archery hunt. Bowhunters are required to wear hunter orange if there is a rifle hunt going on at the same time.

So those decoys which you say archers use.... how archers are using deer decoys with trophy antlers on them?? We are talking about a trophy BUCK rifle hunt with very limited tag numbers. I doubt any archer would use a decoy for mulies in Sept, especially a decoy with 190" antlers on his head.

How many archers in Colorado have been injured by high-country rifle hunters? The hunts have been going on for years. Show us how "UnSafe" these hunts are. You asked for proof, now you give us some.
 
Grasshopper, There have been changes to Colorado rifle hunt rules in recent years. I can now hunt as many rifle seasons as I have tags for. I generally hunt bull elk, cow elk and buck deer. All during different seasons. If I hunt muzzleloader season and second and third rifle season the days I can hunt total 25 days. That's almost as many days as the bow season. I have little to complain about.

My beef with bowhunters is their argument that the month of September belongs to them and that it is unfair and or unsafe for them to share that time with rifle hunters. Those arguments hurt all hunters. You keep saying that bowhunters have the CBA and therefore are entitled to reap the benefits while unorganized rifle hunters just have to live with it. Do you really want the overwhelming majority of hunters that hunt with firearms lobbying the DOW for "their" side the way bowhunters have. I don't like wearing blaze orange during muzzleloader season. We could lobby for bowhunters to wear blaze orange during muzzleloader season. It's only "fair". I would never do that nor would I ask for bowhunters to be excluded from muzzleloader season. Of course that is only as long as the bowhunters are reasonable enough to share September. As one who has done a lot of bowhunting, some of it during the regular rifle seasons, I know that sharing is not that hard. I have had some great hunts with bowhunters, muzzleloaders and high power hunters all in the same wilderness camp.

With regards to quality I agree with you that long seasons are important. I think limited numbers of hunters is equally important. The biggest problem affecting quality in Colorado right now is unlimited numbers of elk hunters both bow and rifle. The next biggest problem is the fourth rifle season. Although limited for both deer and elk it is having a big impact on older bulls and bucks. Last fall the fourth season moved to late November. I know of more big bulls shot during the fourth season than all the other seasons combined. Anyone that gets a fourth season buck tag can get a big buck. I am opposed to the fourth rifle season for Gunnison and everywhere else as well.
 
With all of these overlaps in archery / rifle hunting in other states, it is no wonder why Colorado has more nonres. hunters. I for one was much more aware of my surroundings when my hunting partner and I ran into a guy with a rifle last year during the archery hunt. He was hunting bear.

Hey we need to have less disturbed animals so that we can have more opportunities to wound 2-3 animals per year. What an irresponsible statement! I practice all year with my bow and deeply resent that statement! Screw you!!!!!!!!!

I think it is pretty obvious where I stand on this. Keep the seasons seperate. We already share 7-10 days with the muzzlelaoders. We have all learned to deal with that, even though I have seen my opportunities to wound animals decrease dramatically after the ML opener the last two years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-06 AT 03:38PM (MST)[p]Grasshopper,

If you want our sport (hunting in general) to survive then new recruits need to be found, and most of them will be rifle hunters.

And by the way, Montana does mix seasons. There is a backcountry hunt in the Bob Marshall Wilderness and the Absaroka-Beartooth that allows rifles and takes place in September for deer and elk, not to mention sheep, goat, moose, and bear also in September.

Also, Montana should NOT be used as a management model for other states because MFWP does a pretty bad job of managing for muleys.
 
By the way, I am "recruiting" a new hunter on or about Feb. 17. He will be my first son and first child. He will without a doubt be an ethical bowhunter just like his daddy. Hopefully the oportunity still exsists by the time he is of age.
 
I find it interesting that the arguement on this thread is about opportunity for the Hunter. I'm a Non Res and we are concerned about the same thing. As a Bow hunter you still have 30 days to hunt. Most of which is dedicated to your method of hunting. Why should you get preferential treatment over another hunter? I agree in some because you are a Bow Hunter just like I agree you should get some preferential treatment because you are a Resident.

However, how much is too much? You are concerned about your son having the opportunity too hunt. We as NR are being priced out of the market and are being told we are second class citizens because we don't live there. To take just one of my kids hunting with me will cost me over $1800. We are going to miss a whole generation of hunters. When Hunting Rights are needing to be supported, we will not have enough votes. Those are facts.

There has been legislation already presented to start selling off Federal Land. If people do not perceive to have a benefit to keeping it, they will vote to sell it. It is happening on a National stage not State. Without NR support then hunting opportunies will become less and less.

There has to be an answer somewhere in the middle.

Sorry for the rant.
 
BCHunter,

Just as a starting point I think it is relevant to mention the increase was across the board, not just nonres. Our prices went up on every tag as well as adding a "Stamp". We as sportsmen are always paying the way for those who don't hunt or fish. The stamp will however apply to those people who use state trust lands as well, so finally hikers will be contributing in a small way.

Colorado is still the best value for the non resident. Not just because of lower prices but also because of increased opportunities. Colorado is still the leader in over the counter elk hunting opportunities. As a non resident I would encourage you to buy a cow tag for your son, they can be had for about half the price of a bull tag. When the prices went up dramatically about five years ago it was long overdue and only brought them up to the level of most of the neighboring states. It looked like greed but in my opinion it was artificially low for too long.

Now lets address being "Discriminated against for not being a resident". Colorado has given a higher percentage of limited entry tags to non residents than any other state. Have you applied for an elk tag in Arizona lately? For years non residents received something like 38% of the limited entry tags. Even you as a non resident would have to agree that it was a bit excessive. Try living here and knowing that I will not be able to hunt in the North West corner of my home state for about 15 years. That's fair right? However my friends from out of state can draw those tags every five years or so. A resident being able to hunt in the NW corner of the state is becoming much like Packers season tickets, I will have to will my points to my son in hopes that he will be able to chase the bucks that I cannot.

I don't see our seasons as being preferential treatment. Rifle hunters get their seasons too. Their harvest is still exponentially larger than ours with a shorter season. The elk rut has been starting later each year and tends to be going strong during the early elk rifle season. The deer rut falls during the later deer rifle hunts so I don't see how you could call our seasons preferential treatment.

Henry
 
While I can appreciate you guys pointing out some mixing that occurs in other states, it is clearly the exception rather then the rule. When you look at the immense scale mixing occurs in Colorado, it is an alarming trend to me and others.

Another poster did a good job of trying to illustrate some of the hunt attributes bowhunters look for. Beyond undisturbed game (where rifle hunters may prefer pressure and movement), bowhunters are also challenged by weapon range limitations, and low success rates. I hunted with rifles, still do for cows occasionally, and have used a muzzleloader. I am sure everyone would agree it is completely different, and incredibly challenging. You need 30 yards or less with a bow.

Contrary to another post, I have seen data that suggests archery is actually the fastest growing segement when it comes to hunter recruitment. You got cannabilization from both rifle and muzzleloader, as well as new recruits who pick up a bow from the get go.

In closing, I still have the vision and hopes of all bowhunts being a quality experience in terms of the extreme challenge of required close range hunting, the second to none recreational experience with limited game disturbance (from audible reports and visual orange), lower hunter density, the timing and season duration. I would encourage you guys to not only take the challenge, but embrace the vision as well. That "experience preserved" will go a long way toward recruiting new hunters into bowhunting which will help us all.
 
Grasshopper,
You definately have passion for your chosen weapon, but you are the exception, not the rule. You say you enjoy getting within 10-20 yards before shooting, and that "You need 30 yards or less with a bow". Most guys out there are flinging arrows at 70 yards plus. The ethics found in many of bowhunting's new recruits is questionable, while the technology of today's bows are pushing the 100 yards envelope.

The problem I see with your comments comes down to the fact that you are trying to eliminate Opportunity for other hunters. September is a great time to hunt and reserving it for bow hunters only because they want solitude, no pressure, ect is plain selfish. Most of the hunts that take place during the Sept are on strict and limited quotas.

By the way, I have taken "the challenge" and I do hunt with my bow. But I know that there are others out there who choose not to archery hunt.
 
Grasshopper, You are saying that just because other States do it makes it right. Your tags went up from what $36 to $45 plus a $5 Stamp. WOW We pay $500 and are told we are second class citizens when considered for LE units. I do believe that R should have an advantage, but when ALL Western States are at most 20% NR or less. There is no operceive benefit and votes are going to be lost. It is inevitable (I can't spell worth a crap).

You have your opinion and I have mine. You did not address the vote issue. When it does come to a vote the Residents of Western States will be needing NR's help. As I stated, if there is no perceived benefit then why fight. You say buy a Cow Tag. For most NR it takes points to buy a Cow Tag. If I want my kid to have a shot at an LE unit then I will have to start saving point now for them to have the opportunity at an LE unit by the time they are in there 30's (they 11 & 15 now). I was told by the DOW that with 6 points and the new system that I will probably be unable to hunt an LE unit in CO in my lifetime (I'm 43). Your told 15 years and it just got shoter and I'm told never. Sorry I don't feel to bad for you. Why should I fight for your right to hunt since I have no perceived benefit?

How would you consider having a 30 day hunt compared to 5 or 7 days not preferential? 1 week compared to 4.

You as a Resident have certain rights especially on State Land. Federal Land belongs to everybody. As stated before you should get some benefit but 80% (I'm talking all Western States) is a lot more than it should be.

I've talked with the RMEF about this subject and they are concerned. They realize the National political ramifications of what is going on out West. They do not want the Federal Government getting involved, but it is becoming a more talked about subject thanks to AZ and that's not good.

I realize that you want to hunt in your back yard. However, when you don't own your backyard you had better make sure your neighbor is on the same page as you because he has a stake in it to. If he doesn't then you have a problem.
 
I have hunted both archery and early buck rifle in the same unit. I noticed very little impact to my hunt. Ken
 
BCHunter,

Forgive me for not being psychic, but I can't tell where you are from due to your lack of a profile. By the way it kind of pisses me off that so many people hide here on the net, without a profile.

The bottom line is, residents SHOULD get preference in drawing tags. I accept that fact in other states, after all it is largly our state tax dollars as well as licensing money that pays for the management of our resources. Nonresidents have had a free ride for years in Colorado, it is time for that to change. If you want to have a better chance for your kids to draw a Colorado tag, MOVE HERE! Everyone else has! Myself included, I have lived here for 12 years.

Hunting out of state has become expensive for all of us. I don't like it anymore than you do, but why do you expect Colorado to give its tags away to nonresidents? Are our elk and deer less valuable than every other states?

Henry Ferguson
 
What part of you should get benefits did you not understand? I never said that NR should get more than R or even equal. I said only 20% was not enough. I'm not hiding behind the enternet. I live in Abilene, Texas and my name is Darran Ancinec. If you are trying to find me I'm not hard to find.

What part of my statement about all Western States do you not understand? Did you even read my post? What part of my statement "just because they do it makes it right" did you not understand?

No one has yet to discuss the problem we are getting into with losing hunters and support.

You obviousely don't want to talk about them leaving us totally out with the new Regs. Not just further behind but out.

I will go fill out my profile to make you feel better.
 
2-point:

ill advised shots are taken by all types of hunters. It is not an archery exclusive or specific issue. At least with a bow you cut tissue vs a bullet that just flat out destroys it. PBS has study data on archery recovery/healing, if you care to reference it. Beyond that I support mandatory bow ed, but there is a huge trainer shortage issue in CO, and CDOW won't go there.

In terms of September hunts for elk/deer, its a slippery slope, but look at the boone and crockett definition of fair chase. What is a higher degree of "improper advantage"? A weapon with a range of 100's of yards, while even with my archery archery equipment I may not have an ethical shot from 10 yards given angles and vegatation while that same shot opportunity is a cake walk with ML or rifle. As well, some may consider the quarry "distracted" at this time so again what is a higher degree of "improper advantage".

Again, the industry standard across the west, is archery elk/deer = September. Why buck industry standards? After all it is a established standard of performance that has served us all well for decades.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-06 AT 02:47PM (MST)[p]The problems in Colorado are more the fault of landowners than local hunters. That is where the larger percentage of these "New resident" tags are going to end up. They will then be able to sell these tags and further line their pockets.

What do you consider a fair price to pay for an elk or a deer as a non resident? I have no problem starting a dialog about that but I think this thread has gone far enough off topic. Start a new one and I will gladly chime in.

One undeniable fact is that the Colorado state budget is in a deficit. They are looking to either their first or second largest industry in the state (Us as sportsman) to try to fix the deficit. Is that right, I don't think so. But hey that's government. If you would like an interesting read, go to www.bowsite.com and go the the Colorado page and read the discussion about the Habitat Stamp. The residents are not happy either.

What is a fair percentage for nonresidents? For years it was close to 40% but there was never even close to 40% of applicants that were nonresident. Was that fair to the residents? I sure don't think so. 20% may not be fair but it is alot closer to reality.

As a Texas resident I can see where you would be especially concerned with the future of affordable hunting, as most opportunities in your home state carry a pretty high price tag. It is my fear that with the increasing landowner influence here in Colorado that we are headed in the same direction. It is also my fear that to hunt in my home state I will have to buy a landowner tag much like Mr. Lowe did here in Colorado this year when he harvested his monster velvet muley. These landowner tags don'e even limit you to hunting that landowners property. They are a convenient but expensive way of bypassing the drawing process. That is what is not fair.

I was able to convert a nonhunting friend this year into a hunter. It was through a turkey hunting trip and he has since bought a bow and will be accompanying on the archery hunt next year, if we get drawn. I am always looking for opportunities to get our message out there. I encourage everyone to do the same.

By the way, I do not share most Colorado residents view on Texans, As a lifelong Cowboys fan it would be hypocritical.
 
By the way, I was not trying to find you, I just like to know who I am talking to and to know where they are coming from.

Nice to meet you Darren.

Henry Ferguson
Littleton, Colorado
 
Henry, read your post. I think the 65/35 split would be fair. Where are you getting that 40% of the NR tags were not being used. I started hunting unit 62 in 1999 and started applying for unit 61 at that time. I go every 4th of July to scout and the thought process was that we could (me and 3 friends) scout unit 61 at the same time.

I look at the tag allocations every spring to see where we are at in terms of drawing. The tag allocations for NR in unit 61 are less for R in terms of point needed. We expected to be able to hunt there with 9 to 10 points. Now with the changes we will never hunt there according to the DOW in Denver. That's why I am pretty vocal about the changes. I figured I would have one chance to hunt an LE unit and we made the commitment to unit 61 6 years ago. Now we are out.

My view (which biased) is that R get more opportunies to hunt with extra tags for most game animals in all Western States. I totally agree with that. My problem is the NR being told that we do not have the right to hunt a qaulity area because we are NR. It's Federal land. I shouldn't have the same opportunites as a R but damn I should at least have a legitimate shot at having that opportunity.
 
I for one am sick of hearing bowhunters complain about rifle hunters. I aknowledge the fact that it is more difficult to bag any animal using a bow, but what I am sick of is the prima dona attitude of many bowhunters. If a primitive hunt is what you are after you better be using a recurve or a long bow shooting instinctively, with cedar arrows and hand chiseled heads. I am not lumping all bowhunters into one group here, only pointing out the attitudes of some towards rifle hunters.
 

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