Kirt Darner 210+ B&C

Christian

Active Member
Messages
437
Yes Kirt has been charged with several non-hunting related crimes this last month (illegal sales of domestic elk, receiving stolen property.) Can we please wait and see what comes of these charges before we hang him or anyone else for that matter. While our laws (the greatest laws in the world) say we are innocent until proven guilty, many in the hunting world assume the opposite.
The website rules say I can't mention the name (ironically Kirt's name doesn't get the same protection,) but only several years ago another mule deer great had some serious federal charges against him and his associates that were dropped because of a weak case, but not before many in the hunting world dropped the hammer on him, too.
While I'm friends with Kirt, I'm not here to proclaim his innocence or guilt- that is the job of the courts. However, when people are claiming Kirt never could have legally killed his 15 or so B&C deer because "one person just can't do that," or that he only killed big deer in the "60's and 70's," they're out of touch.
Following are some of the deer he has taken in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. Did he poach these, too? I tried posting them myself and with no luck. 257Tony has offered to help me, so watch for these pictures.

The first one is his old Mexico buck harvested in January 1997. This buck nets over 210 B&C and is about 34" wide- one of the top typicals to ever come from there. Kirt was guiding hunters in Mexico at the time. He'd seen a HUGE set of tracks on one of the ranches he was guiding hunters on, but never saw the deer that made them when he was with a hunter. When he finally got a few days off between hunters, he set out to find the buck, and find him he did.
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone...." Jesus Christ.



The Christian
 
Christian.......Jesus Christ has nothing to do with
this!
I feel Kirt has done wrong many times and I am not perfect!
However I say a crime has to be punished!
I seen enough, heard enough and has passed "my own judgement"
on him! Its not like anything he done was accident!
He will be just slapped on the backside(maybe nothing at all).
He feels above us and nothing gonna happen to him!
A poacher is a poacher!!!!(all I have to do to see them is left my dogs tail and take a look!....)
Wildlife would better off if all poachers never allowed to have
guns again!
Because they get away with it....it becomes a "way of life" for them and happen over and over again!
Rackmaster
 
Rackmaster,
I agree that a crime has to be punished, but charges are just charges until the courts prove guilt, that's all I'm trying to point out. If Kirt's really a poacher, then he should get his due.
Anyone one of us could be charged with a wildlife crime and I'd hope people would reserve judgement until guilt is proven. Many lives have been ruined before when we prematurely judge.



The Christian
 
10,000.00!!!

OLD MEXICO!!!

PRIVATE RANCH!!!

I GUESS YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME WHAT A GREAT HUNTER IT WOULD TAKE,HUH???

THIS GUY GETS IN & OUT OF MORE RAPS THAN ANYBODY IN BIG GAME HUNTING!!!

TOO BAD HE HAD TO START HUNTING RANCHES TO KEEP THE B & C FAME!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IF IT TAKES 10,000.00 TO SCORE A B & C BUCK I GUESS I'LL JUST KEEP HUNTING THE NOMAD BUCK!!!
 
bobcat,
actually, when Kirt was hunting down there in the mid 90's, it was only costing him $3500. It was before it all went through the roof and one reason he quit hunting there. And no, I won't tell you what a great hunter he was to shoot that buck on a ranch, I was just answering the folks who said Kirt only killed big deer during the hayday.
I'm with you on having to pay $10,000, I'll seek the nomad, too.
The Christian
 
Would like to see those pics.

Thanks Christian for throwing in on this. Discussion is healthy and this is interesting.

I think everyone concerned with trophy mule deer should have an interest in situations like this, after all, these trophy bucks are a public resource (in the U.S. at least)until they're taken.

HOW they are taken should be continually examined--- if a person's acts can't bear scrutiny then something's wrong.

I don't feel a person's right to privacy ( i.e.; no criticism) on a www forum trumps honest inquiry into repeated questionable conduct.

These citations are setting a pretty convincing argument that there are ethical issues afoot.

This is a perfect time for a rebuttal from "K.D.", esp. in light of the damning account posted by "R.L.".

Let's hear it from the source. ...well maybe after the courts are finished. Too late now.

Silence is consent.
 
I don't know if R.L. is doing it for dramatic effect or what, but so far in the story there is nothing but speculation as to Kirt's poaching.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Here is your pics, I'll let you tell the story on them, I got to get ready for church! One of them was just a blank white picture, so I wont put it up, unless it was snowing REAL bad that day!













 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

IF THE 3RD PICTURE DOWN AIN'T A MEXICO BUCK THEN I GUESS I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE!!!

IN PIC # 4,I DIDN'T THINK KIRT EVER SHOT A BUCK YOU HAD TO HOLD THE EARS BACK TO MAKE IT LOOK BIGGER!!!

THE BIG VELVET BUCK WITH A RIFLE,YA I KNOW ITS POSSIBLE & DOES HAPPEN!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING IF SOMEBODY COULD PLEASE POST PICTURES OF ALL HIS BUCKS & MARK THEM AS LEAGAL OR ILLEAGAL TAKES,OR DOES ANYBODY KNOW FOR SURE??? I'M NOT ACCUSING,BUT I'D LIKE TO KNOW!!!
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Im staying out of this one, I dont nearly enough facts to chime in either way. But I sense some seriuos
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Cool pics, can't wait to hear the stories on them, the last one is one of my favorite bucks "Lee's meat buck" the deer that should be the world record.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Thanks for posting these for me 257Tony- here's the scoop on each picture.

Picture # 1: Kirts public land Colorado muzzleloader buck. 32" wide, 5x7. Hutning was slow that day so he was tracking a 2-point on dry dirt to see where he might go. Lo and behold, it took him straight to this big buck. Uncompagre Plateau, 1993

Picture #2: Kirts Idaho high-country buck. 32" wide killed in unit 39 in 1993 first week of September. Only the second year the hunt had ever been offered and look who showed up and killed a dandy.

Picture #3 I mentioned this one in the beginning post. Kirt's 1997 Old Mexico buck. It netted over 210" B&C and was 34" wide. He shot the buck when he was outfitting down there. It's still one of the best typicals to ever come from anywhere.

Picture #4 Kirt's 1999 Colorado buck. 30" wide with 6" bases. I don't know if it was public land or private.

Picture #5: A 200"+ pick up Kirt found in Old Mexico in late 90"s, (yes, he's a shed hunter, too.)

Picture #6: Kirts 185" 2004 Colorado Public Land buck. Kirt had regrettably wounded this buck on public land and it jumped the fence and headed onto private. After 2 hours of resighting his rifle and tracking down the landowner for permission, he got back on the buck's tracks. It was Monday, Nov 8th, 2004 and if any of you were in Western Colorado that day, it was warm and dry. He tracked the buck on dry dirt over a mile through open sagebrush. He finally caught up to it behind a small subdivision (typical Colorado for you,) and it was over. The buck was lab-aged at 7 years old. Not bad for a man pushing 70 years old.


Picture #7 The potential world-recod typical, killed by Lee Spurgeon in Colorado, October 1966, and given to Kirt by Lee's family when he died. Officially scored by Rusty Hall (Trophy Hunter magazine) @ 229 7/8. Kirt doesn't like B&C's panel process so it may never be sent to them. He thinks if they don't trust their own official measurers then " 'expletive' them!"

I don't know if my friend committed the crimes he's charged with, but I do know this- he's one darn good deer hunter and I've learned alot from him over the years. I hope that justice is served, whoever comes out on top, Kirt or the courts.

The Christian
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-06 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]yeah, I'll bet Kirt doesn't like B&C's panel scoring, they are pretty thorough.

Another reason that buck will never be sent to B&C is because Kirt's name is associated with it.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

D13er,
B&C would accept the head, regardless of whether Kirt owns it. B&C only removed one of Kirt's heads from the book, he took the rest out in protest.
Right or wrong, these are the facts.

The Christian
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Christian,

You don't know what you are talking about.

JB

."Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

D13er,
on which point are you disputing?

Kirt did withdraw all his heads after B&C kicked out the buck on the cover of Giant Bucks. He carries around the letter at his speaking engagements that his lawyer wrote to remove the heads.

If you're saying B&C wouldn't accept the head because it's associated with Kirt, why not? Lee Spurgeon killed the deer. I have a copy of the official score sheet filled out by Rusty Hall and signed by his witness. It says the hunter was Lee.


The Christian
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

I do beleive that it what happen,they took one one out and he pulled the rest. As i said before I will wait and see what sticks to the wall and what doesn't.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Gator,
That's the whole reason I started this post. I'm just asking people to see what the courts decide before we crucify someone based on charges. Thanks

The Christian
 
and Barry Bonds never took steroids and OJ Simpson never killed anyone...... never proven in a court of law. There's a difference between reserving judgement and being ignorant. When there's smoke there's usually fire and for those times when there's not fire so be it. That is the price you pay for creating the smoke.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

The Christian,

While I dont agree with whom you choose to defend, I admire your pluck to attempt it.

I just cant have any respect for Kirt after he lied about killing that big buck on the cover of his book.

I dont care what he does, did, or will do in the future after that. My mind is made up on what kind of person would do such a thing. He lied. He has no integrity and he made a mockery of the sport. You make it sound as if B&C is being punished by him choosing to take his bucks out of the record book. News flash! They dont care, neither do I, and neither do most hunters. The reason for the buck in questions removal is obvious, B&C was not only justified in removing it, but correct on why they did. Kirt acted out like a spoiled child caught in a lie, took his ball, and went home.

I think that hunters need to quit feeding the ego's of these types of people. They write a book and start believing the crap they write.

Stories like this make it difficult to defend the sport of hunting. Like it or not, there is no getting around the negative press surrounding this...no matter what the courts decide.

Kirt Darner is his own worst enemy.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

BuzzH,
I respect your opinion and agree with much of what you say. I do not defend what Kirt did with the cover of his book. I only started this post because I was reading so much untrue gossip and to show he has lots of unquestionable bucks. I agree Kirt has tarnished his own reputation and even as his friend, I don't pity him.

The Christian
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Like it or not the way it works is pretty simple.

Whether or not the other bucks are "unquestionable" is pretty tough to accept knowing the history of a few others. You post here wanting everyone to "trust" that the bucks in the pictures are legal. Sorry, but I dont buy it. I dont know whether they're legit or not, but I have my doubts.

In other words, everything he's ever taken has a question mark behind it...and he earned and deserves those question marks.

Thats the trouble with an out-of-control ego.
 
I think everyone should just wait out the rest of Rich's story, however long it takes. A lot of big-name guys have been targeted for doing feats thought impossible.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
Trevor,

Are you predicting that Rich's story will make Darner look clean ?

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
The deer are already big so why the dumb camera angle? bubbas comments are pretty darn good.

Jeff
 
Thanks Christian, nice pics.

In an odd way, it's actually good to see the photos and see what Kirt's has been up to.

I hope we're all wrong and Kirt is actually the man and hunter we'd hope he would be.

Take away lesson; don't let your fascination become the obsession that destroys you in the end...no matter WHAT that is.
 
Its funny to watch people cry and moan over all this.Egos and jelousy all the way around...Darner put big deer on the map, thats all there is to it...Except for Californians,[because their hunting has always been so bad] almost no body thought to hunt out of state.He was so far ahead of every one it was amazing..He was doing things no body else had thought of.He set many standards that good hunters use today like long range glassing and good Optics.Guys didnt hunt like that then...Many things that were legal then ,are illegal know..You could party hunt, you could get two buck tags in many states.You could hunt long seasons in November on the winter ranges in some places.And most of those places you could get a tag easy with no draw...Very few people knew about all the famous units we know about know...He was smarter than most and better.What he did back then, i doubt could be done now.Legal or Illegal...Know matter what he does he's going to get ripped by some.And i dont care what anybody says you will never get the whole story.Every one sees things different.Good or Bad.Legal or illegal he's one of the all time best. Get over it...
 
>Its funny to watch people cry
>and moan over all this.Egos
>and jelousy all the way
>around...Darner put big deer on
>the map, thats all there
>is to it...Except for Californians,[because
>their hunting has always been
>so bad] almost no body
>thought to hunt out of
>state.He was so far ahead
>of every one it was
>amazing..He was doing things no
>body else had thought of.He
>set many standards that good
>hunters use today like long
>range glassing and good Optics.Guys
>didnt hunt like that then...Many
>things that were legal then
>,are illegal know..You could party
>hunt, you could get two
>buck tags in many states.You
>could hunt long seasons in
>November on the winter ranges
>in some places.And most of
>those places you could get
>a tag easy with no
>draw...Very few people knew about
>all the famous units we
>know about know...He was smarter
>than most and better.What he
>did back then, i doubt
>could be done now.Legal or
>Illegal...Know matter what he does
>he's going to get ripped
>by some.And i dont care
>what anybody says you will
>never get the whole story.Every
>one sees things different.Good or
>Bad.Legal or illegal he's one
>of the all time best.
> Get over it...
>
>

WELL SAID...THANKS....
 
People are entitled to their own personal opinion, whether they are good or bad. I think that what come into question is what do we as hunters respect. Take for instance the sport of boxing for example....

At one point in time Mike Tyson was the best in the sport, knocking everyone out sporting a perfect record. The guy goes and get himself in trouble, does some credentially damaging things and people don't respect him. WHY??? Because he has done things that other feel are morally wrong. Does that give some cause to say he's not worthy of being considered one of the greatest fighters...ABSOLUTELY!!!

I think that what we accept as okay says a lot about ourselves as people and our own personal character. I choose not to "worship" someone for being great, even if they were great at some point, when they do things that I feel are questionably wrong according to my own personal beliefs. Like it or not that's they way it is....
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-06 AT 10:32AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-06 AT 10:31?AM (MST)

About the buck that was questioned on the front of Kirt's book. I remember reading an article in the RMMDF back when the org. was young. The buck in question was carbon tested for some kind of nuclear stuff that would not have been present prior to 1945 because of all the nuclear testing that was done then. It was proved the buck was killed after this time which in turned proved that the guy B&C said killed it could not have. I remmember in turn Kirt pulled everything out and said he would not enter anything in B&C. The test does not proved he killed the buck, but it does prove that B&C was wrong. All I know that are facts is he was charged for having a client shot a decoy elk and convicted. He is now charged for the elk transport thing and possesion of stolen sheep head.
ProHunter
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
 
Prohunter,
you have your facts straight about the article published in the newsletter by Rocky Mountain Mule Deer Federation (that was their name at the time.) I still have the newsletter somewhere.
If anyone else has it, it should be posted on this website for others to read. I'll look for my copy.

The carbon 14 test said there was no way the buck could've been killed in the 1930's before above-ground nuclear testing and their test concluded it had to be killed in the late 70's. Darner claims he killed it near Norwood Colorado in 77 or 78.
To Boone and Crockett's credit, the picture of the buck they based their decision on was very very similiar to Kirt's buck.
I can't tell the difference in them, either.


The Christian
 
"legal or illegal he's one of the all time best"

you've got to be kidding. I guess I could go up to the hill by my house and drop that 32" 4x5 next Nov. 27 and I'd be right up there.
 
No, I am not predicting that, however, don't you find it strange that so far in 4 or 5 installments there has been nothing but speculation. Maybe Rich is just doing it for dramatic effect or something. I am just saying that rumors run rampant in the public whenever there is a big name involved , witness the latest sports betting charges with Wayne and his wife.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
>Its funny to watch people cry
>and moan over all this.Egos
>and jelousy all the way
>around...Darner put big deer on
>the map, thats all there
>is to it...Except for Californians,[because
>their hunting has always been
>so bad] almost no body
>thought to hunt out of
>state.He was so far ahead
>of every one it was
>amazing..He was doing things no
>body else had thought of.He
>set many standards that good
>hunters use today like long
>range glassing and good Optics.Guys
>didnt hunt like that then...Many
>things that were legal then
>,are illegal know..You could party
>hunt, you could get two
>buck tags in many states.You
>could hunt long seasons in
>November on the winter ranges
>in some places.And most of
>those places you could get
>a tag easy with no
>draw...Very few people knew about
>all the famous units we
>know about know...He was smarter
>than most and better.What he
>did back then, i doubt
>could be done now.Legal or
>Illegal...Know matter what he does
>he's going to get ripped
>by some.And i dont care
>what anybody says you will
>never get the whole story.Every
>one sees things different.Good or
>Bad.Legal or illegal he's one
>of the all time best.
> Get over it...
>
>


Well said fullcry,

I'd like to add one thing, and that is that Darner not only did the above mentioned, but he also knew what he was looking at in terms of qualifying for B&C. He was trying for book bucks, and in some cases that meant shooting deer that actually had less antler on their heads when compared to a NT standing next to them. Alot of guys wouldn't have shot the "smaller" deer, but since he knew that alot of deer net to low for typical and won't gross enough for non-typical, he would shoot mostly good scoring deer. Back in the heyday, most other hunter looking for big deer just shot the ones with the most points when they happened into a bachelor herd. Deer numbers were at an all-time high and most hunters wanted meat anyway, so the pressure on big bucks was much lighter than today.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
I'll bet he never got his feet wet crossing a creek either, the water would part to let him pass...........salami, salami, baloney.....

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Hopefully this story by Rich will answer all of our questions and finally lay this story to rest, but I doubt it only because we all enjoy squabbling on here (it makes things interesting, right?) I don't think that anybody really wants to find out that the man is a poacher. What Kirt supposedly did and stood for is what we all emulate, and that is killing a bunch of big deer. We all dream of it, otherwise we wouldn't be on here, and if it is all fake, then the dream dies for all of us. He gave us hope, that if one man could do it, then maybe we would have a chance to fill a wall up of exceptional horns. Either way, a bunch of us will have to eat our words on here, and a bunch of us will be able to gloat that we were right about the man...

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
K.Darner and Barry Bonds/Pete Rose are in the same boat, But regardless of allegations all three were amazing in there own right. Kirt Darner for president!
 
Sneakem,I liked you parting water shot.Dont agree, but i liked it anyway.But i will say you have a good point. NOBODY is a Saint.People arnt perfect,Life isnt perfect. The world doesnt take comercial breaks and end on the hour.
 
I have said in the past, that I wish he was legit.
I have no doubt that he is a better hunter than I will ever be.
I've never called him a poacher.
That buck that is disputed is a tough one though.
Some say the carbon dating works fine on fossils and ancient artifacts but doesn't work on relativley short timeframes.
I've also heard from several sources that Darner tried to enter a Jaguar skull into the B&C book as a Mountain Lion skull.
(The Jaguar skull is much bigger & would place very high in the book).
Anyone else hear about this?
I want Larocco to finish his story.
HH
 
Yeah, it happened Harry, that's the reason he doesn't like B&C's panel scoring. Things like that don't get past them. Almost did though.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Was Darner trying to pass off the Jaguar skull as a mountain lion that he killed? If so, I may have to burn my copy of "How To Find Giant Bucks"

Steve
 
HEY TORTISE HUNTER!!!

WE WILL SELL OUR COPIES OF "HOW TO FIND GIANT BUCKS"!!!

I READ THE BOOK,I STILL HAVEN'T TOOK A GIANT BUCK!!!

WE WILL SELL THEM ON E-BAY,PROMISE THE HIGH BIDDER A GUARANTEED BIG BUCK!!!

MAYBE WE'LL MAKE SOME BIG BUCKS???

I'D RATHER TAKE A BIG BUCK,BUT I WAS BORN 20 YEARS TO LATE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WITH A KIRT DARNER BOOK FOR SALE TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER,MINT CONDITION,BEST OFFER!!!(BY THE WAY,I'VE GOT A LION SKULL I KNOW WILL SCORE HIGH IN THE bobcat BOOK!!!)
 
I heard Wayne was caught betting against Darner on whether the B&C would accept that Jag skull or not. Wayne won that bet and Pete Rose lost. ;) Ben Johnson has always claimed Darner as his friend but now that his coach is implicated in the elk drugging incident, that has probably killed Ben's final comeback. Tayna Harding will have Kirt's back in Prison and Mike Tyson has already set up a Bubba date for him.
 
.....and BCBOY hopes Kirt will be in a prison close to the border so it will be closer to visit every weekend for advice.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-06 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]The plans are already in the works to bust him out. We'll tunnel him out and hide him up here so that he can finish his book in 'Real' Mule Deer Country. ;)

I've already signed a deal with a big Hollywood production company to play Kirt in the made for TV movie.
 
the jaguar skull deal is a lie. out and out. first off, it's against the law to even have a piece of a jag. unless it was taken before the moratorium, you can't have any part of one. no american spotted cat, as far as that goes. if he'da tried that the feds woulda hammered him with the lacey act until the cows come home. and it's pretty well documented that he never shot a lion until many years after all the "who's buck is it?" fiasco. the original crap was over the missing buck, a azgfd paperwork mistake on a bighorn he shot in Az. in the 60's and a coues deer rack. it won't be long and someone will say he knows where hoffa is. and who killed jfk, who shot JR, etc. c'mon guys, find out some facts, don't sling around crap.
 
Famous quotes:

"I never poached that deer!" Kirt Darner
"I never had sex with that woman!" William Jefferson Clinton
"I am not a crook!" Richard Milhouse Nixon

Darner will never out-live his reputation. No matter how many bucks he took legally and legitimately there is a cloud of speculation around him that will never die and quite frankly, I don't care how many pictures you post or how many explanations you give, I will never trust him. I have never met him and maybe if I had, my perspective would be quite different. Like HunterHarry said, I am sure he knows more about hunting than I ever will, unfortunately, he also knows more about getting around hunting laws than I ever will also. I hope he is innocent of these latest charges, but it is hard to see through the smoke screen he as himself put up.

ROY
 
c'mon, RLH, how many charges have to be officially filed before YOU start questioning your logic? This isn't one isolated incident. There's at least 5 and I have a hard time believing the cops and B&C made them all up. Generally cops don't "sling crap" because they eventually will lose their jobs.

As far as the jag skull, when you say "it's against the law", WOW, I'm sure that would've stopped him. OOps I forgot, it didn't stop him a half dozen other times, or more.

What's your stake in this anyway?
 
Nice bucks.
I agree, he was ahead of his time, for a while that is.

Kind of like Michael Jackson. He would have remained a legend, but opted for another route. Maybe a bad comparison, but you get the idea.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
hey doug, what are the other charges? name em. he did get caught by the roboelk. but what are the 4 other charges? c'mon, what are they? and don't give us any of this "i heard" crap. this last deal ain't a game violation either. it's a livestock violation. i have no stake whatsoever, other than i know the guy. and i guarantee you if someone takes a jag skull to the b&c, they're gonna turn em in. it's a felony. so far, christian is the only guy on here that has told the truth. everyone else is just adding rumore to speculation. if anyone has any dirt, i mean real stuff, not rumor, lets hear it.
 
The guy's been officially charged with tranquilizing wild elk (9 felonies). Possessing stolen sheep heads. Tampering with evidence. That's what the press release says. Is the press release wrong? If I recall correctly, the information came from the New Mexico Game and Fish Dept.. Am I wrong? If it is some internet hoax, then I apologize to Kirt, but at the same time, the way you describe it is a bit alarming.

Now, admittedly there is some confusion on the definition of wild elk, I suppose. The Press release says they're "state-owned" but at the same time they're from a ranch. ?? (anyone?...)

BUT...
You downplay this by putting this in the same category as cattle rustling.

So in your book, tranquilizing wild elk is a LIVESTOCK violation? If you really think that, you need to get some help. Get serious.
If you don't think that shooting elk with drugged darts on state land is "dirt" then please do us all a favor and tell us why.

If it's not a felony on the feds books, then it should be, and it has nothing to do with livestock. If convicted on any wildlife-related felonies, the guy should go to jail and be permanently banned from hunting AND B&C. I don't need to know any more than that.

Who knows....maybe at that point he'll be famous on the Today show. That's what it takes these days.
 
As we all can see here, there is much speculation as to if Kirt committed any crimes, and is the whole reason I started this post: to point out that much of what is said on here is just speculation. Let's see what the evidence proves. He may be guilty as charged, he may not be.

If he's done something wrong and the law proves it beyond a reasonable doubt, then even as his friend, I hope he gets his due punishment. However, convicting him (and his wife and his kids) before trial is wrong (the legal term is slander,)and I won't let that go unchecked for my friend.

Those of you who say you don't trust him no matter what happens are entitled to that opinion. I understand that Kirt has been in several situations that tarnish his reputation, but as of yet, not one naysayer has proved that he is a poacher.

My point: if Kirt poached any or all of his big deer, please present the evidence. If you don't have any, then just state that what you're writing is your OPINION. We live in the greatest land in the world because we can state our opinion. But even our laws don't allow for conviction without evidence that proves "beyond a reasonable doubt" a crime was committed.

Read montanamuley85's reply (#38.) He explains the polarizing effect of Kirt Darner on all of us; He's the reason many of us are mule deer fanatics: he gave us hope. If these charges are proven true, that hope is dashed, even for me. But for now, I at least owe Kirt the respect to wait and see what the evidence shows happened. I pray you all would extend me that respect if I'm ever charged with a crime. How about you? and your family? Wouldn't you want that respect?


The Christian
 
Updated Wednesday, June 28, 2000 11:00 PM MDT



Outfitter claims he was target of DOW official



Russell Smyth / Montrose Daily Press / June 29, 2000

MONTROSE A local outfitter lost his bid Wednesday to have hunting-related charges dismissed because of alleged mistreatment from a wildlife officer.

Kirt Darner, a big-game hunting guide who has authored hunting books, served as president of the Western Colorado Safari Club International and is a former columnist for the Daily Press, faces six charges related to a Nov. 2, 1999, incident.

The incident occurred when Louisiana hunter Jeff McClelland, one of Darner's clients, fired a rifle outside the window of Darner's pickup along South Dave Wood Road after seeing a four-by-four elk standing in Game Management Unit 61 west of Ridgway. Stuffed with Styrofoam, the elk was a decoy set by Colorado Division of Wildlife officers.

Darner argued in Montrose County Court Wednesday that the charges against him stem from alleged vindictive behavior from DOW Area Wildlife Manager Mike McLain. Based out of the DOW's Montrose office, McLain oversees wildlife law enforcement for the area.

"I've been picked on here unnecessarily, I think," Darner said during testimony.

Darner testified he has helped the DOW with numerous operations, including transporting moose. Although not mentioned in court Wednesday, he also said he helped secure $10,000 through the Western Colorado Safari Club International for research into declining mule deer populations.

Attorney Frank Woodrow, representing Darner, asked the court to delay his criminal trial until a civil trial can be completed.

Woodrow said during a court recess that a civil suit, filed against McLain and agents of the DOW, was amended last week to focus on McLain. Woodrow amended the suit because of a recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling that questions whether the government can be considered a person. Under the ruling, a person can seek damages if they can prove mistreatment through a vindictive action, illegitimate animus or ill will, Woodrow said.

Woodrow also alleged McLain acted vindictively toward Darner on several occasions during the 1990s, including the decoy incident.

In one incident, Darner testified he kept a young elk on his property for a Texas logger he hired to work for the summer. When the logger and his family returned to Texas after the season, Darner eventually sold the elk for the family. Darner said he came home one night and McLain was waiting for him.

"He said that I was in illegal possession of wildlife and he was gonna cite me for that," Darner said. "I said, It's not even my elk.'"

Darner said he entered a plea bargain for that charge and paid a $2,000 fine to the DOW. An outfitter in Colorado and New Mexico since 1962, Darner was placed on probation with the state Guides and Outfitters Board. He said he depends on outfitting for roughly half of his income.

In cross examination, Deputy District Attorney Myrl Serra asked Darner who wrote the elk citation.

"I believe it was Mike McLain," Darner said.

Serra said he had a copy of the ticket, which was written by DOW District Wildlife manager Dale Coven.

McLain was not present in court Wednesday.

Another incident involved trespassing on a private ranch where Darner guides hunters, he said. A hunter and a local man acting as a guide bagged an elk on the property; the two men were trespassing. McLain came out to Darner's camp after the DOW was contacted.

Darner said McLain cited the hunter approximately $135 dollars but did not cite the guide as Darner was cited in the decoy incident.

Ken Miller, the DOW's district wildlife manager for the Ridgway area, testified he cited McClelland on the scene following the decoy incident.

McClelland paid a $274 fine for unlawfully hunting wildlife from a motor vehicle and a $342 fine for unlawfully hunting big game without a proper license for Game Management Unit 61, McLain has said.

Several days later, the DOW cited Darner for complicity use of a motor vehicle in hunting and for complicity hunting big game without a proper and valid license for Game Management Unit 61, according to DOW records.

Following a March 3 amendment to the charges, Darner now faces charges for complicity taking wildlife from a vehicle, complicity hunting or fishing without a license, complicity possession of a loaded weapon in a vehicle, complicity shooting from the road, eluding a wildlife officer and reckless driving, according to court records. Complicity involves acting as an accomplice to a crime.

The decoy case revolves partially around whether or not Darner helped his client hunt from a vehicle otherwise known as "road hunting."

Darner said he and two hunters were returning to their camp from another ranch when the decoy incident occurred.

"Jeff (McClelland) was riding shotgun right in the front seat, and (another hunter) ... was in the back seat. ... It was about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, and Jeff said, There's an elk.'"

Darner said he stopped and turned around.

"When I finally came around the corner, there's a little alcove, ... I said, Jeff, that's not an elk. It's a decoy.'"

Darner testified McClelland had his rifle in a vertical position.

"He instantly bolted one (shell into the chamber) and stuck" the rifle out the window in the 10 o'clock position, Darner said. "He said, those tricky (DOW) sons-of-bitches,' and bang,' shot out the window. ... It scared me to death."

Darner said he was driving when McClelland shot and continued to drive until he saw lights flashing in the road ahead of him.

"I pulled over to stop for the pickup that was coming, and it was (DOW biologist) Bruce Watkins," Darner said. "Bruce said, Hi, Kirt.' I apologized to them. I said (to McClelland), This is just like getting a speeding ticket, Jeff.'"

Miller testified that Coven and another district wildlife manager, Maurice Potter, were stationed north of the decoy and that Watkins was stationed south of the decoy. Miller was stationed just across the road from the decoy. Wildlife officers remain out of sight during the operation. The decoy is a full-body elk mount, but is not capable of moving parts of its body mechanically.

"A lot of cars went by, and none of them stopped," Miller said. "Well, one of them stopped and hollered and said, I know you're there.'"

Miller said he was about to wrap up the operation when a vehicle drove past then turned around and drove back.

"They stopped, and I mean immediately when the truck stopped the gun went off, and the vehicle went off at a high speed," he said. "The pedal was to the metal."

A DOW case report of the incident states: "He (Watkins) said the truck was coming at a high speed and he swerved to miss them. He said they went by him, but quickly pulled over. The driver and registered owner of the pickup was Kurt (sic) Darner, an outfitter out of Montrose. ... At first Darner and the defendant said the shot was just to scare the elk."

Referring to the charges of eluding a wildlife officer, Woodrow asked Miller if he really thought Darner would run off from the scene.

"He did it," Miller said.

McLain later asked Miller if Darner should have been charged, Miller said. "I said yes." However, Miller added that as a district wildlife manager, he makes his own decisions regarding whether or not he should charge people.

Darner denied the allegation that he eluded an officer.

"I did not see anyone to get away from," he said. "Bruce Watkins was the first person I saw, and I stopped immediately."

Darner said that before he and his hunters left, Coven told him he could have been cited for complicity.

"That was Tuesday," Darner said, "and Friday morning when we came in from our hunt our cook ... said Mike McLain called. ... He said, I'm really (upset) that you didn't get a ticket up there. I want you to come to town and get your ticket.'"

Through testimony, Woodrow argued that other alleged acts of vindictive behavior from McLain could have included the following:

Having Glenn Smith, a criminal investigator with the DOW, ask Mike Knight, who works at Darner's hunting camp and owns the Buck Stop Pawn & Gun in Montrose, if the theft of two ram heads from a local taxidermist's shop could be connected to Darner.

Asking Darner's cook about Darner's hunting clients while McLain waited for Darner to return to camp after the trespassing incident.

Forwarding information to the Daily Press that led to articles, in Woodrow's words, "accusing you of molesting people and being a crook."

Woodrow, who originally requested Wednesday's hearing to ask the court to hold the criminal trial until the civil trial is over, amended his motion and asked the court to dismiss the criminal trial.

Serra argued there are no grounds for Woodrow's request.

"There's been no law enforcement misconduct," Serra said, adding that "two tickets in six years does not rise to the level of harassment."

Judge Charles Greenacre denied Woodrow's request to hold or dismiss the criminal trial.

"It appears ... officer Miller wrote the citation in this case, and it was his decision," Greenacre said, noting Darner testified there was no animosity from Miller. "The fact that the vehicle approached and passed the decoy, turned around (and then shots were fired) ... is consistent with complicity."

McLain's actions regarding the baby elk and trespassing incidents did not indicate vindictive behavior, and law enforcement officers need to be able to ask probing questions to conduct their jobs, Greenacre said.

The criminal trial was set for Sept. 28-29, but Woodrow may file for a continuance because Darner has hunting clients on those days.


...hmmmmm.... I see another illegal possesion of wildlife charge, as well as being a suspect in the theft of the rams head for a long time now....if anything he's got quite a history against him.
 
If your driving down the road, and a cop is behind you.Eventually,Hes going to come up with a reason to pull you over if he wants to.Most guys who hunt a lot,particularly those who hunt multiple states,can share bad stories of harrasment ect.i would almost bet,if a fish cop were to hunt with any single one of us.He could find us in violation of some law at some point...Any hunter who finds success ie [takes some big animal] is immediatly hammered by a certain percent of people who heard from some one who heard from some one that they did somthing wrong.I have a taxidermist friend,who is honest and
professional.I have know him all my life,see him every week.Some news station was doing a story on poaching and vidioed him with a night camera one night taking out the garbage in his robe and slippers.They used this footage as they talked about hunting,implying in some way he did somthing wrong...That has dogged him for years,very unfair...This is the part that i could insult the guys that were spreading the Jag story,you know the Feds would absolutly hammer some one for that..I bet the guys
on here spreading that crap really dont believe that story.I would hope they have more common cents than that...But when you spread things like that it makes you look stupid...
 
doug, go back and read the press release again. says right in it that he was charged with "livestock" violations. it does not say he or anyone else was charged with anything in connection with the sheep. it said the sheep heads were in "a" vehicle on his property. didn't say one way or another if it was his truck or if he, or anyone else was charged with anything involving the sheep heads. they were on his place, and that surely doesn't look good, but it didn't say anything about him, or anyone else for that matter, being charged with anything. from what i can gather, he's been charged with stealing an elk from someone else. so, basically, rustling. the whole release was real vague and misleading. until someone gives out a little more info, anything anyone says is pure speculation. i'd hate to be in his place right now. sounds like a serious and embarassing situation. but halfcocked bs doesn't benefit anyone. not even the guys that wanna bury him. i get sick of hearing folks smear around crap that didn't happen. "oh his ex-wife turned him in" bull. "oh he got caught with a jaguar skull" bull. "oh he stoled a buck and put it on his book" bull. and on and on. if you can't add something true, then shut up. remember "operation navajo buck" or whatever the hell the name of that deal was? what happened their? buncha cops ended up looking real bad and the most famous guys basically skated. cost em a lotta money to skate, but they skated. seems like the guy that actually shot the buck got the hell fined outta him, tho. and at least one of the guys was a convicted poacher at one time. oh, and one more time, what are the "5" convictions or whatever it was you mentioned?
 
From KKCO news-

Crawford Man Indicted In New Mexico


A hunter, guide, and author from Delta County who once held a number of records for large mule deer is now being indicted on a number of felonies in New Mexico.

Crawford residents Kirt Darner and his wife Paula were indicted yesterday on a number of felony counts by a Cibola County, New Mexico GrandJjury.

Several of the counts deal with the theft of two big?game heads owned by the Colorado Division of Wildlife found in a truck owned by the Darners. The head of a desert bighorn sheep and a rocky mountain bighorn sheep were at SW Taxidermy to be display mounted when they were taken from the Montrose business in the year 2000.

This is only the latest run?in for the hunter,who is well?known to Colorado wildlife authorities. In 2001 Darner's guide license was revoked for three years after a hunter he was guiding shot at an elk decoy from a truck window. The hunter being guided also did not have a permit for that hunt unit.

Darner has long been controversial. In the 1980's he removed several Boone and Crockett mule deer from the club's records after questions arose about the legality of one of the specimens.

In addition to theft by receiving on the stolen heads, the Darners also face charges of tampering with evidence and illegally moving four elk from public property in New Mexico to a private ranch.

Kirk Darner could face 33 years in jail on nine felony charges. His wife Paula could serve up to 24 years in jail on six felony charges. The couple have yet to areested on the indictments and remain on their Delta County property.



From the Cibola County Beacon-

Accused elk thieves plead not guilty

CIBOLA COUNTY ? Kirt Darner pled not guilty to 24 counts, his wife pled not guilty to 20 counts and former New Mexico State University regent Steve Lewis pled not guilty to two counts related to elk stealing during their arraignments Friday at the Thirteenth Judicial District Court in Grants.

Paula Darner, 49, and Lewis, 46, waived their arraignments, but their cases will continue to proceed based on the court's schedule.

At the time the incidents occurred, the Darners owned a 40-acre Lobo Canyon hunting ranch north of Grants, which according to their attorney was sold in early 2005. Allegedly Lewis bought animal tranquilizers from a McKinley County vet, and the Darners reportedly used the drug to sedate large bull elk in the Grants area so the elk could be moved to a hunting ranch in southeast New Mexico. Lewis reportedly owns that ranch.

Paula Darner was charged with two counts of receiving stolen property (more than $20,000), two counts of conspiracy to transport stolen livestock, three counts of tampering with evidence, two counts for transportation of stolen livestock (live bull elk), two counts of unlawful possession of big game (live bull elk), four counts for failure to submit invoice for sale of game (live bull elk), one count of failure to maintain minimum aggregate number of game (live bull elk) and four counts of failure to have two forms of identification and health certificate, occurring between May 20, 2000, and Feb. 25, 2005.

Her husband was indicted for the same counts, plus two counts of unlawful possession of big game (live bull elk), an additional count for failure to submit invoice for sale of game (live bull elk) and an additional count of failure to have two forms of identification and health certificate.

Lewis was charged with two counts of conspiracy (controlled substances) between Dec. 17, 2004, and June 14, 2005. He was later asked to step down from his position as a regent for New Mexico State University, and did so.

The Darners have moved to Colorado and their conditions for release must still be abided by there, according to the courts. Kirt Darner is a hunter and operated a hunting outfit with firearms, so his attorney requested that his guns not be confiscated as part of his release. The courts obliged, except that he cannot purchase, trade or move them across state lines, and he is required to provide his attorney with an inventory of his firearms.

Lewis also reportedly testified at the grand jury, and the Darner?s attorney will receive a copy of that testimony.

By Ilene Haluska



You'll note that they are both charged with receiving stolen property on the ram skulls and in addition to the livestock charges.... unlawful possession of big game...its a laundry list!!
 
thanks sneakem.

Is it a bit clearer now RLH?

And I'm still waiting on the answer to why you think darting and stealing wild elk on public land is some sort of minor livestock violation. Maybe minor to you, but likely just as bad as (or worse than) poaching elk in the Natl Forest to most of us here on this forum.
 
RLH,

What's in the envelope ??

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
For those of you who want to know more about rich's story, Im pretty sure it is AGAINST Kirt. Darner. I would take bucks at night and in other states that he shouldnt have been hunting it.

My old man has talked to rich one on one about this subject. You will hear more in the later stories.
 
Archer 13,

Get your dad to go over to Rich's house and kick him in the a$$ for moving so slow with the story !!!!!!!!!

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
The charges against the Darners are ridicules!!!!!! All this says to me is they can't come up with any real charges so they try and look for bogus, idiotic, stupid bull$hit. The law up there needs to get a life...............
 
I'll bet the guy that lost the desert sheep head that was found on Darner's property doesn't think this is "bogus, idiotic, stupid bull$hit."

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Doug,

While you are correct in saying that cops don't generally sling crap because they will eventually lose their jobs, you must realize that with big name people, the authorities will sometimes go after them on less evidence than they would an average joe, just to send a signal to the public if anything.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
the 2 articles that sneakem posted aren't the original press release from new mex. in the original press release it stated he was charged with livestock violations and only that bighorn heads were found on his property. i hadn't seen these 2 articles before. still, until the case is overwith, i'll reserve my judgement. anytime someone is charged in any case, they pile on charges like they're loading a dumptruck, hoping that there is something there that the guy will eventually agree to plead guilty too, so they get a conviction. like i've said all along, the stolen bighorn heads bother me more than all the other stuff. i've been trying for over 30 years to get a sheep tag here in Az. it'd sure piss me off to finally get one and have someone steal it. and with all the hell he went through over stolen head allegation before, you'd think he'd run like he was on fire, away from anything that even looked like a stolen head. but there is one thing i really wonder about. i've killed a lotta elk. i've been around on many dozens of others. big bulls, alive, can weigh over a thousand pounds. not real often, but sometimes. 800 lbs is real common. plus they're gangly and stretched from here to there, they have a big ol' rack o' horns on em and are usually wild as hell. just trying to roll around a dead one to gut it is a chore. how are you gonna dart one, get it loaded and haul it off? shooting one and cutting it up is one thing, i just don't understand this deal. why would anyone even take on such an undertaking? especially when you can buy pen raised 500 bulls real easy. i just don't see a likely scenario here. somebody have an explanation. also, who is the lewis guy named? someone said he was on the board of regents in new mex? what's his story? for over 20 years i lived 13 miles from catron county new mex. worst boss hog place on the face of the earth. ol' scarface and all his cronies runnin' the county like hillbilly gangsters. if this county is anything like catron, there ain't no tellin' what's going on. and doug, i'll say it again, where are the 5 previous convictions or charges or whatever it was that you alluded to previously? i'm waiting. he got caught up in the styrofoam elk deal. but what are the other ones? this is exactly what i keep hammerin' at. there aren't any. just rumor and speculation. it doesn't look good for Kirt. it also didn't look good for the navajo buck boys. but they prevailed, sorta. time will tell, and again, i'm real confident that Kirt's buck ain't the one that was stolen. but, that's a different story. i'm done with this until it's over.
 
Just a side note. A buddy of mine said the following " the sheep heads were not stolen but purchased." I don't know if it's a fact but he was adamant about it. This is getting good.
 
Trevor-

I agree. There are exceptions. We'll just have to see how this plays out. My main point was that there are just too many incidents in the last 10 years with this guy to write it off as dumb cops.

I will say this: The NM GFD doesn't exactly impress me as having a great track record on these things anyways...
 
....well I've got a buddy that claims he and Darner went to different schools together..

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I agree with Christian who got this thing started, Kirt Darner or KD as I like to call him is the Godfather of Muledeer hunting and nobody can take that away from him. These are nothing but allegations and he will be proven innocent. FREE KD!!!!!
 
Its good to see some common sense on the sight I for one agree Kirt Darner is a legend. Not only did he write the best Mule Deer book ever he also gave up a full ride scholorship as a middle linebacker for Penn State and Joe Paterno in the late 60's so he could hunt and pursue elusive monster muleys. This subjects been beat to hell and back so I'll leave it at this. KIRT DARNER IS LIKE FRED BEAR ON STERIODS. Long live the God Father of Monster Mule Deer.
Toke pole Johnson
 
200itis,
Do you still think that Barry Bonds has never taken steroids because he has never admitted to it and the evidence has not been proven IN A COURT OF LAW?
Again everybody, in an effort to be politically correct and try to do the RIGHT thing by not prematurely judging you do a disservice to everyone. There are times not to judge someone but when there is overwhelming evidence or Experiences that call in to question one's character it is OK to form an opinion on someone and treat them accordingly. If that person is unfairly judged and later exonerated(?) then it's our job to own up to unfairly judging them. It's OK to come to conclussions based on what we know. And what we know is that KD has a checkered past of either proven wrong doings or highly suspected wrong doings. He does not therefore have the luxory of getting the benefit of the doubt.
 
Is there anyone out there that can produce the photo of the Arizona buck killed long ago and compare it with the buck on the cover of Darners book?
This is an issue of huge contention regarding Darner's credibility.
That will be today's homework assignment.
HH
 
Read post 57 all the way through.... You'll notice the date on the paper, from the year 2000.


"Through testimony, Woodrow argued that other alleged acts of vindictive behavior from McLain could have included the following:

Having Glenn Smith, a criminal investigator with the DOW, ask Mike Knight, who works at Darner's hunting camp and owns the Buck Stop Pawn & Gun in Montrose, if the theft of two ram heads from a local taxidermist's shop could be connected to Darner."



Ironic that they find those same two rams skulls on his property 5 years later. Too shady for my benefit of the doubt, but of course they probably framed him for that one..:rolleyes:
 
The comment I would like to make about the whole thing is that I have noticed mixed opinions about this Kirt Darner fellow. I heard of him first on MM when I read the story of Lee's Meat Buck, when I first read the whole story I thought it was a real cool story, it wasn't until a year later that I ever heard his name again. What I am trying to say is that those that try to make this guy some sort of hero or God Father of Mule Deer hunting is crazy. I don't know if he actually did the things he is being accused of but I will tell you one thing from my own personal experience someone did not just dream these allegations up and somewhere, sometime along the way the guy did something wrong otherwise there would not be so much controversary surrounding him. Someone earlier in this post said something that I believe to be 100% accurate and that is if he lied even once then he is not some sort of God Father or Hero of the deer hunting community. If the man is so smart and intelligent he should have know that lying was not going to get him anywhere, to me it is that simple. You lie once and your reputation will never be the same. I know that my opinion about the guy doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things but I know what I believe and what I don't believe. The way I see it is like this, whether everything he did prior to, during and after the first lie he told really doesn't matter because for someone that was suppose to be an authority figure in our sport to lie to the world of mule deer hunters is unjustified, and undignified. There is no room for lying in this sport. From what I have witnessed in my hunting experience once a man poaches or lies to this extent it usually means he is and always will be a liar. I am glad he removed all of his heads from the B&C books because he shouldn't be allowed to keep a single one of them in there for the simple fact that how can the b&c folks ever trust a word that comes from his mouth.

I have never, nor will I ever consider this man a legend in the mule deer community. His name will never be up there with folks like the Eastmans, Doyle Moss, David Long. These guys to me are roll models, not someone that has been caught red handed in a lie! No matter how small or big the lie was.


I am not trying to sound like someone that has never told or lie or who is holier than thou, but then again I am not a big name in the hunting community and I also am not trying to put my name out there. Kirt is and was and always has wanted his name out there from what I can gather. Unfortunately for me I don't like the guy and never will
 
Hey Smokey Johnson thanks for the welcome, I knew he was allstate New Mexico football his junior and senior year. But I never heard Joe Paterno was trying to recruit him, that is major dedication to forgo college football and a quality education to pursue the old cagey monarch to the extent that he did.
 
After following this post for the past several weeks I have enjoyed both side of this arguement. However when I read the today a comment that included the Eastmans in the same class as Kirt or any other really mule deer hunters I could not help but laugh.
 
Muley73 I couldnt agree more. With all due respect to the Eastmans, they just can't compare to K. Darner. Guy Eastmans last 2 b&c non typicals are amazing, but something tells me that wheat field Kansas 242 buck wasn't public land or D.I.Y.(Did Mike E. really coyote out in that John Deere 9220 all day to get that on film?) none the less a truly incredible muley. As far a K. Darner "If the buck dont fit you must aquit"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 02:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 01:57?PM (MST)

Stiffle that giggle for two seconds and follow the Eastman clan for more than 50 years and once, just one time tell me when one of there animals (deer, elk, moose, caribou, antelope, ........) was ever questioned as too its authenticity or legality! I had a good laugh too, but too the folks trying to defend this guy, now that is a joke. I can't remember anyone of the Eastmans clan having an animal kicked out of the books or anyone of there animals ever having controversy about whether or not it was taken legally. Yes, I will agree with those that disagree with there animals being taken on public land or not but all the same at least there animals were never poached. Which is exactly the opposite from every thing Mr. Darner is going through right now. The story just keeps getting deeper and deeper.


I hope in the end the truth comes out! Whether the man is guilty or not guilty I hope the underlying truth comes out. I am sure some heads are going to turn and some eyes will be opened I just think it will be a surprise at whos eyes are opened. I am confident it isn't going to be mine.
 
I don't mean to bash Mike Eastman, but I would have to agree with Muley73 on that one. I own several Eastman videos and love to watch them shoot mule deer, but really, how hard is it to shoot deer on guided and private ranch hunts like they go on? His book on hunting high country mulies is a good read, and back when the man hunted public land in Wyo he seemed to know what he was doing, but seriously, watch some of the videos made recently and tell me how much talent it really takes. I would find the videos much more interesting if they hunted public land on their own, even if they took smaller bucks.

trevor

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin
 
I guess the question should be ethics. Some things may be legal, but do not set well with my ethics. Both the Eastmans and Kirt Darner have killed much bigger animals than I have. Would I do the same things that they have done to attain those animals? Probably not, I don't have the money or poor judgement to do either. I will say that when I was in my teens I attended the first Mule Deer Convension and listen to Kirt give a seminar. That seminar was the start of me believing that I could kill big mule deer, for that I will credit Kirt with my respect. As for my respect for the Eastmans I guess I just do not make enough money to warrant anything but a well rehersed smile and speech on who to make the check to for my magazine and free DVD. Kirt was in the business of shooting big muley deer. The Eastmans are in business to harvest the other kind of big bucks. Kirt Darner aside, to put them in the same class as David Long, Ted Riggs is what makes me smile.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

What do you mean, "Eastman's HARD-LUCK Bucks!!" Man, they do it the EASTMAN way, hunting huge bucks during the general season... I mean, no special hunts here!!

They don't bother to mention that they are on guided hunts on private land. Come on.. I passed on renewing my subscription just for that BS marketing ploy that insults anybody with half a brain. Nothing wrong with guided hunts, private land, etc.. but save the BS marketing tactics. It's a kick to the shin of anybody that actually does hunt unguided and public general season normal hunts.

As for Kirt Darner, let the courts do their job and see what happens. Sounds fishy, but I know first hand that press-releases can be more than a little misleading with the real facts.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Kirt Darner....ya he killed some great deer. But who's to say on how many of them are legal.I wouldn't want this guy on my side in the sport of hunting. He is a disgrace to us all in the great sport of hunting. Give hunters a bad name.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

I personally feel the man is what he is, A great mule deer hunter. His books are the best going, There is not a better book or books on the market. Giving the man his props, I also do not know what to think of the RUMOR MILL and it is just that. RUMOR MILL. I think all will be proven in a court not a MM fourm. In my mind he is innocent until proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be guilty. So to those whom presume to think he is guilty without any proven evidence. I hope you are one day found in a suspicious activity and everyone you know finds you guilty before knowing the facts. I for one will not cast judgement on anyone without the proof. Like Christian said "LET THE PERSON WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE" AMEN BROTHER AMEN!!!!!





FEAR NOT FOR I AM WITH YOU! Walk soft and carry a 300 RUM,
 
Muley73,

Like I stated before I had never heard of this guy prior to coming to this site two years ago, I don't know what he did or didn't do. My point was pretty much the same point RackMaster was trying to get across, usually where there is smoke there is usually fire.

On the same note the point about the Eastmans was simple, no they may not do things the way I do them or the way you do them, but someone was trying to make me believe in one of the earlier posts that this Kirt Darner was the "GOD FATHER OF MULE DEER HUNTING" I mean give me a break. From what I read and understand everything he does you have to take with a grain of salt because who knows if it is the truth or not. Granted the man has killed some big deer, and after what I have read and heard I am interested in reading his book(s). He sounds like he certainly knows what he is talking about. But then you add to the mix that there are rumors flying about him poaching, and you want me to consider this guy the "KNOW ALL MULE DEER GUY" Not going to happen. See whether or not I agree or disagree with the tactics that the Eastmans crew uses the point still remains that you can't recount a single time in which they have been scrutinized for poaching. They may do alot of b.s'ing. about public land vs. private guided hunts, the fact remains at least what they have done FOR OVER 50 YEARS has been by the books from a legal standpoint. I have my personal favorites as far as who I would like to hunt with if given the chance and who I read all their material and other things, and others I would not! I don't necessarily believe the Eastman Crew is in the same bracket of hunters as David Long, they both seem to have very different beliefs and tactics but for comparision sake, which was my intention, they both at least keep it by the book. When I think back to the first name that stuck with me as far as mule deer hunting is concerned the first name has always been Eastmans. That is why I used them as a personal example for myself as someone with some authority on the topic. You might see it differently they are just the first name I think of when it comes to big muleys.
 
RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Listen here Elkslayer, I couldn't agree with you more, amen brother. He wrote the best book to date on the subject. Darner Rules!
 
i'm 'bummed'....with all his proven troubles, i can now no longer consider james brown as the 'God Father of Soul'...i'm goin' huntin'....
 
I agree that where there is smoke there is usually fire. I am just not so sure who usually starts the fire. It seems that when every any hunter that hunts on pubilc ground has repeated success they are put under the microscope by the law and numerous jealous hunters. If the success comes on private or guided it is ok, because we all know for a fact if you have he money someone will grow a big one for you to shoot. I am not saying that Kirt did not do some shady things but that is not my place to decide. Like I have said I agree with points that have been made on both sides of this arguement. But I do feel Kirt gave all of us a look at the type of deer that where out there to be hunted if we put in the time and effort and for that he should alway recieve some credit even if there is an astrics by his name.
 
Harry, I saw a fairly good copy of the photo and it was evident that this was the same deer due to the unmistakable antler configuration down to the little nubs and bumps.
The B&C has the photos and they had absolutely no doubt.
 
Big Muley, its good you have your own opinion.Better even that you admit you havent been around enough years to know about Darner.Any one who has been around Muleys many years has to admit he put Big Deer hunting on the map like it or not.What seems to rub Darner fans most is the people against him give him absolutly no credit for anything and thats rediculous...Yes, its hard to know how much.read his book yourself.Realize that it came out in the early 80s.Things were alot different then and earlier 60s,70s when he hunted.Things have changed alot..But his book is still cool to read even today.And weather some want to admit it or not.You will be a better hunter for it.In the end thats what were all trying to do, get better at what we love Take it for what its worth.P.S. dont just assume[like Darner} that the others you mentioned are exactly free of their hunting mistakes so to speak...Theres storys about some of them also....
 
David Long in the same breath as Darner or even Riggs? Davids face is turning red in embarrassment.

I wonder why Darner and his wife weren't thrown in the pogey with some of the other Bubbas??
 
I agree with you 100% ridge, I just can't imagine how in the world Darner can be classified in the same group with some of the better known hunters of my time. Maybe way back when he was the man, maybe back then it was o.k. to break the law! See I agree with both sides here, Darner at some point in time was the authority on big mule deer but the moment he was caught in a lie his credit and recognition went right down the tube! That is all I have been saying, it is like a rollercoaster around here sometimes, YES I ADMIT MAYBE AT SOME POINT HE WAS THE MAN!!! BUT THE SUN HAS SET IN HIS SKY!! HE WILL NEVER BE IN THE SAME CLASS OF GUYS AS DAVID LONG, EASTMANS, AMONGST OTHERS IN MY EYES. LIKE I SAID IMO!!!!
 
I dont care how many bucks hes killed legally or poached. I dont need to read anybodys book on how to hunt bucks. If someone needs a book to tell them to get high, glass in the morning, at dusk and keep the wind in your face ..... but then again i do need to buy a book o n how to play poker cause i know nothing on the subject.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 03:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 02:59?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 02:52?PM (MST)

To all the Kirt "KD" Darner haters out there, you got to remember that Darner was an inovator, he was ahead of his time, he was doing things his way well before other serious trophy hunters came along, he hunted multiple states, few hunters did that back in the day, he used high powered optics and knew how to pick a part country and glass all day long, your average guys where just hiking around, he got the 7 mag soon after it came out, cause it shoots flat as hell, and he practiced shooting at moving tires rolling down hills, his shooting was and is money. KD invented the fishhook patern and has had a hell of a lot of success. He is the one that coined the phrase and I quote' " Big bucks leave big tracks but not all big deer live big tracks". The guy flat out, with no question is the God Father of Mule Deer Hunting. Its proven with the quality of animals that he has harvested. And he will also be proven innocent of any and all allegations, that is what judges and jurrys are for.

Long live the God Father of Mule Deer.

Darner for President in 2008!
 
Hey Bucky,somebody had to teach you about how to "glass in the morning,glass in the evening,and to do it up high...Who ever taught you or told you to hunt like that probly learned it from Darner because he taught everyone that.Hard core Trophy Hunters are still useing the same tactics now that he taught in the early 80s...
 

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