New Mexico Unit 2b

C

CHUCKER

Guest
I just drew a 2b tag for the first rifle hunt and don't know what to expect. Some advice will be nice.

Will any of the deer be migrating that way that early (I've heard its the winter range)?
What about the resident herd?

Is that a big enough area for the 465 hunter who drew, will it be crowded?

If I'm holding out for a trophy what should I expect? Maybe 27" 180 4x4?

Thanks for any advice. My first mule deer hunt!
 
If you do a search for 2b you will see past threads on this area.

Drum
 
click here for PM
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=inbox&from=lobby
buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
We drew out two tags and we will be there too, I just hope we get the weather, but there is still some good bucks. Everyone has told me to get high and glass. I am holding out for a big one also. We are looking at high up by Colorado, but it is still in the air. Good luck. We are headed that way a couple weeks before the hunt to scout. I heard to wait closer to the hunt. I will let you know what we see. Andy
 
Good tag.

The deer start moving into area around the end of October. By the end of the 1st week in November it has deer everywhere.

The seasonal gates get locked on Oct 31st.

Good to get some good vantage points in your GPS before they locked the gates. Then spend the day on one of those points - make sure it is back behind a gate or off the road.

MANY - MANY roads in area for the oilfield -

We had some good bucks on the ground last year in our outfitted camp.

Also had spotted some that were very nice!

3rd hunt is best - big bucks are out chasing does. Very realistic to see 500 deer in a day. Will have to weed through smaller bucks. 170+ can be done.
 
30INCH

As of last year the gates are closed as of Oct 15. The last I heard it will be the same dates this year. Good luck to all with the tags, wish I had mine this year.

Mike
 
The guy I'm going with killed a deer that grossed over 200 in the early muzzleloader season there in the last 15 minutes of the last day.
 
Early season scouting is great to learn the area. Don't expect to see many deer during your scouting unless snow comes early in southern CO.Don't get discouraged if you don't see many deer or bucks. That unit is like magic once some winter type weather comes in , one day very little to no deer, than weather comes in and there is deer everywhere.I believe its 24 or 25 miles from highway 64 up to Carracas Mesa on forest road 310. About 7 miles up you come up onto Mestenas and it forks off to the left into a big loop, maybe2-3 miles. If snow falls . this is a great area as many hunters will just pass it by headed to Carracas.In the January bow hunt this area was loaded with deer .As you go further up you'll see the pump jack roads with locked gates, but its public land , so you can park and walk into these areas and I know some guys who have mountain biked the roads a few miles back and get into deer , you just can't get motor vehicle(atvs/motorcycles imcluded)beyond the gates.
The only advice is if the ground gets wet , make certain you have chains and a good shovel and jack if possible.That dirt is sticky muck and will swallow up 4x4s' with scary ease.
Best of luck to all you lucky DOGS who drew , its a great area...
 
Shouldn't say this, but I will. Not all the land in 2b is public. Rosa road goes through a lot of private, as well as the road that goes to America Meas, Crebresto Canyon, Lopez Canyon, and La Fragua Canyon. This road is closed to the hunters, and the F&G had their hands full last year writing tickets to the trespassers. The Espinosas get a lot of money for their tags, and now they call F&G on all trespassers. And yes, the roads and land are posted. Just be careful, and don't go through any gates that are posted. It'll end up costing you in the long run. Anthony
 
Alot of private my butt. They blocked the road at the wrong place and rumor has it, they got in trouble for it. Where their land is looks like alot of open country. Keeping their hunters on the deeded looks hard to me. Hope their hunters are playing the game legally. For you guys hunting 2B, if you run into any folks with private land access/tags, they must have a public tag to be on public land. Know your rights! Don't let the hunter or rancher BS you. Know the rules. Ask them, if they don't have a public tag turn them and the rancher in. I'm glad they (Espinozas) turn in trespassers. If their hunters get on public with out the legal tag, their hunting illegally and if they kill one, they have poached. Furthermore, if they are guided the guide and outfitter can get their butts in a ringer as well. Hunters, check with the local USFS and BLM to assure you know what roads are legally open in this unit.
 
I dont have any problems with landowners blocking off private land. Its theirs and they have that right. But I agree with JFWRC, they have to play by the rules too. I heard some of the same rumors. This is the sort of bad blood that causes bad rules for the rest of us. I know where Espinoza's place is and most of it is in the sage flats. I have been to the locked gates and been turned around by rude individuals at those gates. I have also seen vehicles behind those gates. The vehicles I speak of were on forest land that was closed off to vehicle travel because of the gates that the landowner put up. My biggest gripe is if the landowner is going to block access to the public where right-of way to public lands exist,,, then why are there vehicles, that manage to get in to the blocked off forest lands. I dont know the whole story about Espinoza's gates, but I do feel like something was not right!
 
Sounds like the county needs to get involved because if it's a maitained road they CAN'T gate it. They can post all the land on both side that they own but can't close it to landlock pulic lands that are beyond their land and if the road is use 6-8 months out of the year(without closed gates) you can have other rights that they are breaking, Any one know the people on the county commission.Post name and phone numbers, Now is the time to try and get the problem taken care of not on the first day of hunting.
 
Here lies the problem. You see, the forest service or the BLM didn't build the roads. The roads were built by the oilfield companies to access the wells.
Second, a lot of private property is on sections, so the private land hunters have the right to cross national forest or BLM to access the private land. They can't be denied access to the property.
Third, last year, a few "lucky hunters" were only charged with hunting in a closed area, not criminal tresspassing with the purpose to hunt, a felony.
If it wasn't legal for the pivate land owners to close the roads, then the Forest Service and BLM wouldn't be looking into trying to build new roads, around the properties.
The problem is that most of the hunters have been driving through and hunting the properties to years, but now that they can't get access, they are doing dumd and stupid things, which in turn only upsets the landowners more.
Just watch where you go, and stay off the private land. The land doesn't need to be posted, read the procs.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-06 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]The road built by oilfield co. but Maintained by county will still fall under the county rules because they USED taxpayer money to maintain the Road, so if those roads are graded by the county I think you will find that they can't be closed to the public( we ran into the same problem in Utah and the county re-opened the road for the public) And the guy locking the gate was a county deputy sheriff, and that road only has 160 ac of BLM at the end of it surround by School trust and public land That are in a CMU. Game warden was telling people the same thing you couldn't go down the road because of the CMU and that hunters couldn't even stop to photo deer and elk out on the CMU or they would get a ticket but that all got changed in about 3 months of work(letters and phone calls)The only way the Pulic can lock a gate on county maintained roads is if there is another way to access it from another point, BLM can/will enforce the public rightway to access if enough people push them for it. So I'm pretty sure this isn't a done deal if PUBLIC TAXPAYERS MONEY was involved, plus as you say this road has been used for years so their may even be rights there too. If the road was made by the rancher but used by the public for a number of year he MIGHT have losted his right to it. I'm sure we can find out by talking to different dept's County,Blm, FS, School Trust F&G and Let see if this is legitmate or not.

Crowdog: just post the County Maintance office and county commissioner's name and number let's see if the road thing is up to snuff,So anyone down that way have this information please PM me and let start the ball rolling.
 
Sorry dudes, but the roads are maintained by the oilfield companys, not the county or the forest service. The oilfield companies are the ones that improve the roads, at the request of the landowners.
It's time to understand that the time when it was free to hunt private land without permission has past. The ranch owners are making money off their tags, and now the public has to deal with the gates being closed, legally. To be caught on the private lands now is really a dumb, stupid act. The F&G says that the lands don't even need to be posted, that it's the hunters responsibility to know the boundaries. So now, we have to understand that NO TRESSPASSING means.
With the price that the landowners are getting for the mule deer tags, the hunters that buy these tags don't want other hunters driving up and down the roads shooting the bucks. Put yourself in the hunters shoes. If you just bought a private landowner for a couple of grand, would you want tresspassers driving the ranch roads hunting the bucks that you paid to hunt? Maybe we should be a little more considerate to the landowner, and respect his decision. After all, it is his land.
 
The F&G also looks at it this way. The road through the ranchs ain't the only access to the national forest, or the BLM. Just the closest and the easiest, and the best roads. And yes, the public land hunters are upset, because the private land that is now closed was and is some of the better mule deer hunting areas out there. Ouch....
When the other roads are locked by the BLM and the Forest Service in October, the road through the Espinosa ranch is unlocked, allowing hunters to drive through the ranch. With guys out there running hunters off the ranch and taking license plate numbers and turning them over to F&G, situations arise.
Hunters knowing and willing ignore the posted signs, because they've hunted the land for years without any problem. An outfitter from Arizona was found guiding deer hunters on the ranch in January. Hunters open closed gates with posted signs on them to drive through, or else tear the sign off, or pull wire down to drive around a gate. How does this look to the landowner, F&G, BLM, and the general public? How is this being responsible? Crowdog
 
Crowdog,

I highly suggest you re read the law carefully about posting private land and CROSSING SECTION CORNERS IS Trespassing for the the public hunter and would be be hunting illegally for the private hunters. If you want to get the details, I will be happy to fax you the Statutes on both issues. Trespass is a big problem no doubt. I owned private land in elk hunting country and had several experiences. We posted the land legally and we fought the trespassers. They finally knew we meant business. The ranch you speak of is what Legends Guide said, mostly Open Sage Flats. I again want to reinterate that if a private hunter gets on the public he is hunting ILLEGALLY.
 
Yep sounds like it legal for the ranch to close those gates But not everyone who drives down those road hunt deer on his land, I'm sure there are some who do well good luck in catching them and giving them a ticket, I know too if the guides and their hunters go out on to public lands, they will run into the same sitation, How long will it take for this to go from bad to worse, You play with fire you get burnt by fire, I'm wondering which GW will be watching the ranch hunters? I know from reading these posts their will be alot of other hunters waiting on them to cross the line.
 
ok guys we are all in agreement private land is off limits.. When i was turned around at the gate on Espinoza's place I had no intent of hunting the private. I was simply headed into the forest. When I was Turned around I said No Problem Ill go around the other way. I found Gates that locked me out of every Possible way in to the La Fragua canyon(Forest Land). So Crowdog please advise how legal hunters can get in to La Fragua canyon....
 
See, thats the problem. Once they close the upper gates coming off American Mesa, there is no legal way. Even if you get through the upper forest gate, you still gotta cross private. Last fall archery hunters were trying to get in by coming down from Crebresto, but it's a long ways out from the bottom. That's why there is/was talk of building a road from the catdraw area, around the private. The funny thing is that there is even forest service signs that state private property ahead, no turn around spots, and closed gates ahead.
About the private land hunters being on BLM or national forest, well, the hunters have the right to access the property, and because of the big chunk of state land in the center, they have the legal rights to be on the state land to access the property.
The Espinosa's over 4000 acres in there, and most of it ain't sage flats. It's the Gomez's and the Lopez's that own the sage flats.
I know, cause once upon a time, I hunted the heck out of the Espinosa's, and the boys never said a word. We killed some nice bulls in the area, and was never told a thing. The smart thing to do is just to find a new hunting area.
 
"About the private land hunters being on BLM or national forest, well, the hunters have the right to access the property, and because of the big chunk of state land in the center, they have the legal rights to be on the state land to access the property."

And do they have right the to shoot a buck on those lands?

I'd like to see a game warden respond to this one. Is there a NM warden out in cyber space that could respond to this?

"The smart thing to do is just to find a new hunting area."
Crowdog, do you have anything going on with these folks that would incite you to make such a statement? In other words, do you work for them, do you have the hunting rights, do you guide for someone who leases this area? Something's not right here.
 
No sir, they do not have the rights to shoot deer on state land, BLM, or the national forest, but they do have the rights to drive the roads, either BLM, state or national forest to reach other parts of the properety.
Why is something not right here? Cause I made a statement about unit 2B not being all public, and a statement about the propertys. Yessir, I'm a cousin of the Gomez's, and I've hunted on the Smith Ranch as well as the Espinosa ranch. But like other hunters, now I need a way in to hunt the places that I know holds big deer and some good bulls. But I also know what the landowners are going through, and I understand the frustration of trying to have a good hunt only to have to jump in your truck to run down a trespasser.
Sooner or later, something is going to happen. Guns have already been pulled on the landowner, for what? A stupid deer? If hunting private property is so important, then buy a tag and do it legal.
If what the landowner is doing illegal, would the F&G or the sheriffs department be writing the tickets? Yea, you are right, something is wrong here, and it's guys that insist on going through gates, or around gates, thats makes it harder for the guys that call the landowner and asks for permission to go through.
I'll say this. If this stuff went on in Colorado, guys would be spending the night in jail, waiting to see the judge to bond out. Criminal tresspassing with the intent to hunt in Colorado is a very serious offense. To me, a deer or an elk ain't worth the chance of loosing my hunting privilges. Crowdog
 
Guys, I think you're both preaching to the converted.
I live in a state where 98% of the land is private.
I've fought the poachers (literally) and it's darned
frustrating. But I've also been totally B.S.'d and lied
to by land owners in NM unit 27 about what was public and
what was private. They see my plates and figure they can
intimidate me. And i guess it worked since I didn't trust
my maps, took their word for it because I respect landowners
rights, and found out later I'd been sold a hog.
That is equally frustrating.
 
With all this talk, where is the best place to find an accurate map of roads that are open/closed? Going back for 2nd rifle season and partner hasn't been there in almost 20 years, thought we knew where to go but all this is a bit intimidating.
 
Please let me know if you find out, We have two tags and this is our first time there. I have a friend with the BLM that is getting me some maps but I don't like what I am hearing. Andy
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-06 AT 01:58PM (MST)[p]I would guess that the unit is 90% public land. There are some areas that are gated and roads are closed to non-service traffic. But this is done by the BLM/Forest Service/Game and Fish.

You should recieve a map indicating where and when roads are closed.

That along with BLM maps will show you what is private and what is not private.

On another note. In the laws of the state if you are found hunting on non-posted private land about the only thing that can happen is told to move on. So if the landowners truely want you to stay out they will have the land posted. The big places that are posted Smith's, Gomez & Espinosa. Other than those it is pretty much open.

All you guys that drew that 2B tag. Good luck it should be a great hunt.
 
dont put much stock in to what has been said here. this an old battle that will never be solved. most of the unit is open. the big problem area is La Fragua canyon.
It is forest land that is behind the espinoza ranch. You can hunt alot of country without getting messed up in this ordeal. There are some outfitters that are trying to scare honest hunters into staying away from certain areas. the Rosa road, cabresto road and american mesa areas are all open to the public. you will not be cited for traveling them. if you have questions about any legal issues contact Kathy Mckim at the NMDGF web site. she is a local game warden that can direct you without fear of getting into trouble..

its a great hunt so dont let any locals intimidate you!!!!
 
I agree Legends, I don't see how anyone can keep you from hunting public land, period we all own it.
 
I don't know about Deer, but if these land owners are alloted unit wide land owner elk tags then according to the NMDGF hunting proclamation they have to allow public land elk hunters access to thier property. I don't know if anyone would find it worth it to push the issue. But that's the way it reads in the regs.
 
Crowdog,
So there is a $hit reason for all crap you slung on the wall the POOR Rancher and his guides is this you too..This deal is hurting where you hunt so if you can run every-one else out you can hunt by your lonesome back behind those ranch's. Please answer this one Question WHY are they trying to Landlock land that they don't own for what reason COULD it be MONEY for TAGS, What I'm saying to you and everyone else if Enough people Write and call NM f&G there will be a gate open somewhere for us to access the PUBLIC land behind this ranch's, Even if you never have to use it the right to be able to use it should be our to decide if we want to hunt on that land or not. I do agree with you that ANY-ONE catch shooting or tresspassing littering on your ranch should be ticketed and fined, but to drive by it on a road.

I would like to thank Crowdog for bringing it up so maybe some options will be forth coming. If the land was posted on both sides of the road why not let the other hunters travel on thru to public land or why not post a phone number that they can call ahead of time to be "let" thru. If this isn't just a land grab for more deer and elk for the PAYING TAG HOLDERS then it could be done this way. But if it's just a way to landlock Public land from hunters,and to have more land(then 4000 ac.) to hunt for those tag holders. You can preach to the high mountain that this is a bad deal for the rancher,But if They haven't found a way to fix this problem, I'm guessing they don't want to fix the problem of people traveling down a road pass their land to hunt behind it, Heck we deal with trespassers every year has it got better not it's worse we just run them off and tell them next time it will be the sheriff giving them a ticket we don't see the same people back one warning is usaslly enough. I do know if some other govt. agency has to get involved to change this it could go bad to worse, But hey that is what will happen some-one just needs to find the right person who wants to take it and run, County commissioners, F&G Maybe even a Oilfield company president.

Any one have those phone numbers. Lets start the ball rolling and see where it ends up.
 
On thing that people don't realize is that to reach the forest areas in la fragua, crebresto, or american mesa, they have to go through the private property. It's here, at the enterance, where the gates are.
If guys really wanted to fight and argue about access to the areas, then it'd be easier to fight and argue with the F&G or the BLM for them closing off the other acess ways to these lands. You ain't going to win against the landowner. Yes, the F&G don't want to get involved, but they are out there writing the tickets.
Good luck to all the unit 2 hunters, both deer and elk hunters. Hunt hard, hunt smart, and you'll find what you're looking for. Be safe, and carry a set of chains with you. Crowdog
 
The issue of the forest land being blocked by the Espinosa Ranch was brought up at the F&G meeting in Bloomfield last night.

The F&G stated they have no juristiction on the access across the ranch. However the Forest Service does. Since there has been a road and access was given in the past. It is possible that if enough voices calling the forest service they will either build a road around the property or make the ranch open the road up.

Basically the same that the BLM did with the Blancetts on Arkansas Loop.

So you guys call and or write the Jicarilla Forest Service.
 
Crowdog

There are plenty of ways to access the forest areas of American Mesa, Cabresto, and La Fraqua without passing through the Espinosa Ranch, the main way is on foot with a BLM map and GPS.

You are mistaken about the Game and Fish and BLM ?Blocking? access to the public lands. They do not ?Block? access they limit vehicle travel by putting up gates. By putting up gates it keeps weekend warriors from getting on their ATV or truck and road hunting and screwing up a stalk on 30 inch muley. Only the dedicated hunters hike in to hunt. The landowners do not have the ?right? to keep you off of public land. The ranchers have grazing permits for BLM land and often times think they ?own? it just because they have the permit to graze it. They also do a poor job a posting their private land in most cases. A GPS and a BLM map will help you avoid any landowner issues and aid in hunting some these honey hole areas. Legends is right that there is plenty of country to hunt in 2B that is as good or better than what lies behind the Espinosa?s ranch and as Legends said if you decide to hunt public land, which is your right as a license holder and you are worried about it call Kathy McKim with the Game and Fish, she will lead you in the right direction.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 07:59AM (MST)[p]What is your outfitting company called or do you just work for some-one,How many tags did you sell last year for this area, and how much did they cost, Because hunting 4000 ac of sage and such sure wouldn't kick out 15- 20 buck's so that tell me that you have to be looking back behind the ranch in those area's that are "landlocked" If that is the case I just want to know how much it will cost for a trespass fee to get back into your private hunting spot,

How about some phone numbers and some names,


You must not want to see this thing brought out into the light of day if you don't want me to call up and start asking WHY? you get a private hunting spot on Public land that you sell tags to hunters to hunt on, You think just because the road crosses private land that it don't matter I think it does sometime you you just have to go a little higher up the chain, pass the local bunch and start the b!tch with the Federal guys(BLM). Your right about F&G about don't wanting to deal with it, Maybe you can answer that one question that was asked about you selling tags Do you or your ranch sell unit wide tags. Maybe some old clients will surface and tell a little intresting story about hunting out behind the ranch I wonder what will be said then, How's did the film for the Texas boys come out,maybe the cracks are starting already. I know you have talked about what happens to the hunters who drive down this road tell us about what will/can happen to you and your clients that are catch hunting the canyons behind the gates.
Mr "M" will you ask those questions for all of us that are waiting I mean you have been asked a ton of them and you haven't answered very many of them surly not the important ones.
 
Crowdog,


Another thing that was brought up at the F&G meeting last night was the deer LO tags. It seems that the rest of the state did OK with the LO tags. However in unit 2 it seems that there were some issues.

It will stay the same as it was last year but if the problems that occurred with some landowners continue that they are going to revisit the way the deer LO tags are given out. Because of the new all draw for deer is the reason for the LO deer tags. The G&F do not want to get into what has occurred with the Elk landowner system. They basically wanted to give the landowners permission to hunt deer on their land. However since unit 2 is a "Trophy unit" the LO tags are being somewhat abused in this area. If it continues this year the G&F will do something next year. They have several ideas that are being talked about currently.

Deer LO tags are for deeded land only. There are NO unit wide tags, that only occurs in the Elk LO system. Granted on LO tags that are unit wide tags the ranch that gets those tags are open to hunters. It is better if you do give the landowner a curtsey call but it is not necessary.
 
I think Unit2 needs better control with the landowner deer tags. I like the concept but I believe its being abused!
 
Sure it getting Massage and tweeked to the Owner agents to get the most dollars for the punch, It guys like this that get lumped into the mix because everyone think they are outfitters or guides and most of the time they are second-rate used car salemen, But once out there they do alot of damage before moving on,(getting run off) People come to New Mexico for a great hunt and they run into Anthony, What KIND things do they take back about that hunt in New Mexico, Makes the outfitters job twice as hard try to get people to come back and try a real outfitter, But as long as F&G turn a blind eye to them and let things like the closed gates thing roll on by, because it cheaper to turn a blind eye then it is to fight with the land owner on what damage is caused by the deer and elk on his land,I know I hate to see the F&G being used like a cheap date. But in the long run the damage that LO agents cause is lot more then the animals caused, but the different is that the outfitters pay the bill for the LO agents mistakes and F&G would of payed for the damage the Elk and deer caused. CAN ANYONE TELL WHY one end of the road system can't be left open so the public can access the cayons in question. I know a few F&G and BLM guys/gals are reads this so just post up what your answers are.
 
Lets talk about the damage to the landowners' property. The current landowner tag system for elk gives them the opportunity to sell a bull tag for thousands of dollars. One tag.

How much is that landowner paying for his public land grazing lease? Pennies on the dollar compared to what he is making off the tag. Why is his grass worth so much more than public grass?

I think G&F should do away with landowner tags and compensate at the rate that the landowner pays for public land lease.

That oughta start something.
 
There definitely needs to be some changes to the system because it is being abused by certain landowners.
 
OK sorry chucker,,, this argument is keeping me thinking...
now i agree something needs to be done. we could do away with the landowner tags and compensate the landowner some other way, or we could limit # of tags and go to a system like the elk landowner, where the landowner can open it up to the public then use the tags on public ground or someone could add more ideas... lets talk this out and everyone put their two cents in...
 
NOOOOOOOOO!

Its good to start the dialogue but don't open the private tag on public land door! The elk landowner system is a shambles. You can thank that structure for developing the money base that led to the 22% non-resident set aside. The outfitter numbers went up exponentially when that came to be. You know how many shakey guides are out there right now where it didn't use to be so bad.

Landowners have a stake in the argument and should be able to hunt their own property, but not public. If you included the deer hunts in the L.O.S.S. system the landowners and outfitters would jump for joy, but the average hunter would get screwed. Commercialization of our sport is not the answer. Look at what happened in Az after USO made the money play.
 
I think that if you just did a L.O. voucher so that they had to send in the voucher to the state G&F office to pay for the license.

This way G&F knows who is hunting what ranch. Which would help the wardens.

But we cannot do a landowner system like we have for elk. Also make sure it is private land only.
 
now i can agree with this thought. right now anybody can go to walmart and buy a tag. there is telling how many people do this and dont even have a ranch to hunt.
 
It is management by crisis!

There is no balance!

It is either slaughter them or cut tags to nada!

It is very sad to see NM's game go bye bye! The "Landowner Elk System" is a joke! The Lope one is also.
 
Crow dog Where did you go?
How about those phone numbers?
Water getting hot or don't you like what is being talked about.
Just maybe some good will come out of this just maybe the F&G will see that this is a problem that isn't good for NM hunters.
Hope to see new and better system in place.
 
I have been guiding in 2b for 6 years, in that 6 years I have seen many good bucks. For the most part away from where many people choose to go. When we hunt there, we try to hunt on the banks of the lake. I know it sounds strange but with a boat you can access many places other people don't seem to find. Also you will be amazed at the number of deer and good bucks you see from the boat.
 

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