SE Idaho Residents

"Our goal is to design a survey that asks the questions that sportsmen and mule deer hunters view as the top priorities," said Boudreau. "That way we can design a management plan that will cover all the facets of this complicated issue."

ID F&G will do what they want, when they want regardless of what sportsmen say. I'm sure their plan is to raise more money so they can live fat off the hog...it does nothing to benefit the hunters or game.
 
At least they are trying and it is better than what it was 10 or 15 years ago. The sportsmans groups have gotten their attention.

I am not a big fan of the IDFG but don't let up on them, maybe they will finally get tired of everyone and start to listen. Again, they are at least trying.

I am going to try and make it...anyone else?
 
I have no doubt the F&G does some stupid stuff just to make $$ but I also think they do many good things for hunters. I've gone to several F&G meetings and I believe the F&G will at least consider what the public is telling them. On more than one occasion I've talked to Toby Boudreau, the guy you quoted. He was a great source of information and was willing to listen to what I had to say. He was either very good at deceiving me or he actually cares what hunters tell him. Why would Toby hold these meetings if he didn't care what hunters think?
 
I'm sure Toby does care and listens to what others say but ultimately the F&G decides what does and doesn't happen. I just don't have much confidence in IDF&G and how they seem to manage game on any level in Idaho.
 
I completely understand why you feel that way wileycoyote76. IDF&G has earned that from you and many other hunters.

That being said, it is still important to make yourself heard, either in person or through some organization. I may not make it, but we should all try if for no other reason to voice our opinions.
 
I don't blame you for lack of confidence in the F&G. They have done many things that leave me scratching my head. Ultimately the commission has to approve what the seasons will be. So you can't blame everything on the F&G.
 
I believe it is vital to voice your opinion. In the Salmon region we worked with the F&G to change the mule deer hunting season after losing close to 50% of our buck population from the poorest set up past hunting season. It is better to take part in something than watching it fall apart.
 
Wow, the level of hate in this thread is incredible! But I guess because, as Wildlife Manager for Salmon Region, I'm living "fat off the hog" my personal and professional sacrifice for public wildlife management the last 25 years makes it all worthwhile.

Consider:
"The sportsmans groups have gotten their attention...maybe they will finally get tired of everyone and start to listen." You know what? Those groups have always had our attention - we work for you. We constantly strive to find ways to have you tell us how you want your wildlife managed. One of the biggest issues - evident through many posts on this forum - the recommendations and desires of the hunting public are just as diverse as the individuals. Very rarely is there any clear direction from hunters. That's probably never going to change, but what it means is management tends toward some central or average point of view and anyone on either side feels like they've been ignored. Keep in mind; everyone has a say in how wildlife is managed, whether you want large, mature bucks or simply want to take your family hunting every year and put a yearling buck in the freezer. Nobody's desire or opinion is any more valid or correct than the next person's.

"F&G does some stupid stuff just to make $$" I've never been able to comprehend this sentiment. I don't get a raise if I offer more tags. Just like any business, the cost of doing business increases through time. It's part of our nation's economic model. When the agency asks for increased fees, it is to continue providing hunters the same or greater level of services. I used to be able to spend about 250 hours each winter in a contract helicopter to conduct surveys for big game. The price of that service has increased from about $500/hour to about $750. Would you rather I just fly less and provide you with less reliable data when you call to ask what the current herd status is? And be forced to offer less tags or more restrictve seasons because my confidence in the data decreases after 5 years of no surveys? Do you want our officers to spend more time sitting in the office instead of looking for violations because they're waiting for a worn-out pickup truck to be repaired for the third time this month? And yes, once in a while we even receive increases in pay. Would you like to have your wildlife managed by someone with professional training and high qualifications or will just anybody do? By the way, an Idaho state assessment showed state employees were being paid 15% below market average.

"In the Salmon region we worked with the F&G to change the mule deer hunting season after losing close to 50% of our buck population...quite a slaughter around Salmon"

If you recall, I originally proposed a shorter buck season for Salmon Region. There were 2 reasons: 1) yes, buck ratios declined from the previous year, and 2) monitoring of radio collared fawns was showing very high winter mortality - it ended up being 80% of fawns dying last winter. Many just curled up and died. It was concerns form other user groups that prompted consideration of some other season options. However, season timing is a very small contributor to buck harvest level. Hunting conditions were just plain very good, with reasonable numbers of available bucks last fall. The longer season and timing contributed very little to increased harvest - the numbers are the numbers and I shared them with anyone willing to look at them objectively. Fact is hunting conditions were good everywhere in Idaho and surrounding areas. Those parts of Idaho that had kept a "liberal" season for many years also saw great harvest and good bucks taken. Within reasonable bounds, conditions during the hunt and previous fawn crop have a lot more to do with harvest level than season length or timing. Bottom line is buck harvest in 2006 will be lower than 2005, but it will have very little to do with season length or timing.
 
Salmonfg,

Thanks for your input. I know the F&G does many good things for hunters.
There are only a few things that the F&G has done that I disagree with. When I wrote "F&G does some stupid stuff just to make $$ ..." I was thinking about residents being able to purchase left over non-resident tags and what happened with unit 56 a couple years ago. It is just my opinion that these decisions were affected by extra revenue. I know the extra revenue doesn't make your wallet fatter. Many F&G employees could make more money doing something else.

Keep up the good work.
 
Oh Boy, here we go again. I don't know what the history is for some of you that have such an axe to grind with IDFG. I am with some of you in that I don't agree with every decision IDFG makes, but the picture is much bigger than your unit or my drainage. The interesting part is that almost every state wildlife management agency is held in contempt by a portion of their public. Those of you frustrated with current management should be vocal and remain active in the process, but recognize that your opinion is simply that, and that there are numerous other folks who probably don't agree with it, and though you might not hear from these guys at the local coffee shop or taxidermist shop, IDFG does have to address all input. I have a number of friends who work for IDFG and the truth is, they are stand up people and have a true vested interest in the resource they manage. In fact everyone of them got into the business and made sacrifices to get there because they are sportsmen themselves. The difference is, there decisions are driven by data and science on a broader scale. Why would they make choices that would be detrimental to herd productivity and health?? As far as the "Salmon Slaughter" goes, you folks up that way, from what I gather did have many bucks harvested, but from what I understand in the first weekend of the hunt more bucks were killed than all of last season and weather conditions were not really significant. Now maybe the last few days did add some additional buck harvest, but it looks as though F&G did alter the season back to what it had been before. That seems responsive to your concerns. I wonder what your tune would have been if next year buck ratios came in much lower than they had been the previous year without the lengthened season, would it have been acceptable to you that nature took it's share? The other interesting part about some of the supposed mule deer fanatics in that area, in that they were sooo concerned about the well being of the population that they actually went out and bought a second non-res tag and harvested another buck... Now we can argue about the merits of being allowed to buy another tag, but F&G in no way made these folks go out and purchase these xtra tags. Point is, seems a bit hypocritical of these individuals, IMO. I actually think IDFG does a decent job of managing the wildlife in the state. I mean look at many of the states around us, most have substantial numbers of special conservation tags, very limited controlled hunts, and this that and the other, I am happy to have an opportunity to hunt every year and have a chance of harvesting something decent, no guarantees, but at least a chance. Sorry to rant, but it gets a bit old hearing the fry of F&G based on a person's perception of there own little honey-hole, that said, I hope that we all do stay active in the debate, because IT IS YOUR/MY OWN LITTLE HONEY HOLE. Good Luck All
 
Anyone else go the meeting last night? I could only stay for the first part. The part I heard didn't have anything out of the ordinary. The F&G were mostly trying to get an idea of what type of an opportunity hunters wanted. There were only 10 or 12 people there beside F&G employees.

IDarcher,

I think I'm on the same page as you. I don't agree with everything the F&G has done but overall I think the F&G has done a satisfactory job the last few years. I'm pleased with most things the F&G do. Like you said there is no way everyone will be happy with all of their decisions.
 
I made it to the meeting. I think I was sitting behind you BrianID. I came in late and sat in the back.

If you think there is "hate" in this thread you haven't spent much time on this website. This is a pretty tame thread.

SAlmonfg, no one, not one person attacked you personally. You work for a public agency and any public agency is going to receive criticism,no matter what they do.

I stand by my comments that things are better than they were 10-15 years ago as far as feeling like F&G are listening. No matter what you all say, there is a significant amount of hunters who, right or wrong, won't go to these meetings because they feel they aren't being listened to. I agree with the sentiment but I also believe the F&G has been significantly more responsive to sportsmans concerns.

Yea, it would be nice if all those folks in Salmon wouldn't have bought an extra tag, but if that makes a difference why do you sell them? That is an example of management for $$$$.

The late season hammered the bucks in Salmon, there is no question. Its too bad the harvest reports don't allow you to put in a date harvested.

As far as "always listening to sportsmans groups", well 2 of the most active groups were not in existence 15 years ago.

This is just like the fights over water...when things are wet its not much of a fight. When we have/had lots of deer IDF&G could do no wrong. Now there are multiple issues and no one can seem to pin down a solution and grow more deer. People are frustrated and are going to vent to their public employees. Its just the way it is.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-06 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]"The late season hammered the bucks in Salmon, there is no question. Its too bad the harvest reports don't allow you to put in a date harvested."

The harvest report does include date of harvest and I conducted an extensive analysis of harvest by date, including % 4-points in the harvest by date. In a nutshell, a few things stand out comparing 2004 (18 days, Oct 5-22) to 2005 (22 days, Oct 10-31) in Salmon Region frontcountry units:

1) For the exact same set of days for both seasons and ignoring opening day (Oct 11-22), hunters killed almost twice as many bucks each day in 2005. This is the part that shows hunting was just plain better in 2005.

2) The additional 4 days of hunting accounted for about 18% of the harvest, which is equal to the amount of extra days available.

3) The relationship of day of the season and % 4-points in the harvest was virtually identical between the 2 years.

4) Total harvest increased 100%.

Those are the statistically valid harvest data I had to work with when analyzing and recommending season structure.
 
As far as the purchasing of a second tag, I agree the debate on whether or not they should be sold is one thing. The part that irks me is when these same people gripe and complain that every individual buck is sacred and incredibly valuable, but then turn around and go and harvest a second animal. Come on, we as individuals have to take some responsibilility for the choices we make and the direction hunting has gone. It ranges from everything from aeiral scouting, ATV use,leasing of ground, improvements in technology, and so on and so on.

IDhunter, you are correct though, that when things are good it is easily dismissed and taken for granted. I am not arguing that numerous bucks were harvested in the Salmon area, F&G harvest data will validate the concerns of some sportsmen, but if you want to look at a bigger driver of buck ratios, look to the reported 80% fawn mortality this winter. If we link a number of winters like this, we will be in trouble. I know the argument will come up that, yes winter mortality is something we can do nothing about, but compound a bad winter with accessible bucks and we make things much worse. This is where, I would hope, that F&G data recognizes the same issues.

As far as sportsmens groups go, you are correct, many did not even exist a number of years ago and for 1, I hope that a couple of them do not make it in Idaho, especially SFW at leat in the manner it is Utah.
 
My mistake on the harvest date/harvest report, thanks for the correction.

Agree on the fawn mortality issue, but I would say that if we have 2 or 3 years of 75% survival (like we have had), 1 year of 20% or less (like we had in 05-06) and then can string together 2 or 3 more years of 70%+ that the poor survival in 05-06 would be a non-issue. One for the averages you might say.

Its easy to say people shouldn't complain about buck harvest while buying the second tag, but by that logic we shouldn't even buy the first one. If the herd can support the harvest, great. If not, don't offer the tag.

Any statistics on success rate by second tag holders? I have to think that it is higher than the general population.

I support SFW. Not necessarily the UT version, but the group in Idaho is worth supporting. The other group I was thinking of was the SE Idaho Mule deer foundation. Also worth supporting.
 
One more thing specifically to Salmonfg...you say the hunting was plain better. I agree, I believe and have said to many people that there are more deer now than there have been in the last few years. We saw significantly more deer last fall and multiple "small" 4 points. Something is starting to work, even if it is just the drought breaking.

The main complaint I hear from people in the Salmon area is that there were significantly more bucks harvested, in part due to an extended season with weather (which your info supports) and now the buck:doe ratio is very low (which I think your info also supports). It is simply a feeling that the buck numbers were built up over several years and knocked down in one season. There are alot of people there that are happy the season was shortened again.

Thanks for the good discussion.
 
Salmonfg,
I really appreciate all the data. Having a wildlife biologist that is dedicated to promoting wild game is truly a great asset to our community. In my opinion if there is one thing the F&G needs, it is more money for research and observation. I think there could be a lot of gaps filled. The 2005 season has had an impact, but I believe it has brought a positive insight for future management. I would like to commend you for your hard work and changing the season.
 
Great posts Salmonfg. It is refreshing to see someone post the facts rather than the endless whining that seems to go on around here sometimes.

I too work for an Idaho agency. It's funny that people seem to think that us state guys are getting fat and rich off of them. You and I both know that isn't true. I would venture to guess that you could double or triple your income easily by going to work writing BA's for a consulting firm, but it looks like you have too much passion for hunting to do that. I just hope that some of these guys recognize that.

Thanks for all of your hard work and sharing your numbers with us. It is nice having someone "in the know" around to keep us up to date on the details.
 
Salmonfg,

Thanks for sharing the numbers from last years harvest and putting up with the rest of us.

What percent of the harvest is taken on opening day?

How much higher is harvest on a typical Saturday/Sunday than a typical weekday?
 
Salmonfg
So what did you do with my tag, Everyone I have talked to said you got, BUT I'm in a good mood so I'm going to let ya slide this year But next year I sure could use a nice good one. I will take ML or rifle LOL

As the that old saying goes you can make some of them happy some of the time But you can't make them all happy anytime.
 
"So what did you do with my tag, Everyone I have talked to said you got"

Not sure who you talked to or what tag you mean - I bought a general whitetail tag for deer last year...

"Any statistics on success rate by second tag holders?"

I think a specific number would require some significant digging to find out. I do know about 642 "leftover" nonresident tags were purchased in the entire state: 418 regular season and 224 whitetail only. It appeared about 79 hunters harvested deer with 2nd tags in Salmon Region.

"What percent of the harvest is taken on opening day?"

Based on numbers I had at the time I did the analysis: In both 2004 and 2005, 11% of total harvest was on opening day. 2004: 189 of 1,176; Oct 5, a Tuesday. 2005: 384 of 3,503; Oct 10, a Monday).

"How much higher is harvest on a typical Saturday/Sunday than a typical weekday?"

It varies a fair amount. In 2004 weekend day harvest (per day) was the same as weekday harvest: 92/day vs 89/day. But in 2005 weekend daily harvest was about 35% higher: 182 vs 135.

"...now the buck:doe ratio is very low (which I think your info also supports)"

Yes and no. We had a spike (no pun intended) in buck ratio during 2004 post-season surveys at about 23/100 does. Post-season ratios after 2005 seasons did decline...back to almost exactly what they were in previous years and at or just below the minimum objective of 15/100. Therefore, the idea that we have been slowly "stockpiling" bucks is not supported by the data. In fact, when seasons were put in the most restrictive framework ever in this area, we actually observed declining to static buck ratios for about 5 years. We were seeing modest increases in total deer population, but linking that to buck season structure has no scientific basis. Without opening a can of worms regarding reasons, Salmon Region is currently not very productive for deer. We observe relatively low fawn ratios compared to other areas, consistently produce the lightest weight fawns, and bucks grow smaller antlers for the same age than other areas.

"Agree on the fawn mortality issue, but I would say that if we have 2 or 3 years of 75% survival (like we have had), 1 year of 20% or less (like we had in 05-06) and then can string together 2 or 3 more years of 70%+ that the poor survival in 05-06 would be a non-issue. One for the averages you might say."

I agree. And the same logic correctly applies to 1 year of higher buck harvest. It will average out over time. Frankly, in my professional opinion, shortening the season in 2006 will have no or little impact on harvest. From a scientific standpoint, and to be able to better manage in the long run, we should have left the season the same for at least 3 years to learn and gain predictive capabilities regarding season timing and length. Now we will only be able to make partial comparisons that lack scientific rigor.

"In my opinion if there is one thing the F&G needs, it is more money for research and observation. I think there could be a lot of gaps filled."

I agree. We would all like more information. However, there are a number of obstacles. The near constant negative theme that fish and wildlife agencies are just trying to "get more money" is the most obvious. When we last asked the legislature for a fee increase to cover inflation (13.7%), they said there was not sufficient support and granted 10%. Therefore, we will be cutting spending next fiscal year. And frankly, there are only so many "flyable" days during the survey season, such that even if there were excess funding, we could only cover so much ground with the qualified pilots we have available. Lastly, although there are some gaps in knowledge, I would argue that it is not necessary to count every deer, every year. "Herds" under similar conditions behave similarly and sampling is adequate to gain reliable knowledge for management purposes.
 
i was just wondering, how much of the fawn mortality is caused by preditors, lions and wolves....i know the population of wolves can only continue to increase....nothing to prevent them from living as long as they dont take a ranchers calf or other livestock.....Is this a factor in a decline in fawn survival rate? Weather has an impact, but there are things you can do to help out a herd, IE winter feeding i know it costs money.....pretty much think of it this way, if the commission had all the money they needed, had unlimited funds do you think that people would complain about how the money is used, how the deer population increases and decreases....you cant control everything all the time...you cant please all the people all the time...
 
Thanks for posting those links - they are somewhat buried on the IDFG website.

The numbers paint a pretty clear picture that, at least during winter 2005-06, malnutrition was by far the leading cause of fawn mortality. Another way to look at some of those numbers: of known causes of mortality just under 60% of fawns just curled up and died; just over a third were killed by some kind of predator. Keep in mind that, given the condition of many fawns, predation was sometimes ending a fawn's life a few days or weeks before it would have starved to death.

"Is this a factor in a decline in fawn survival rate?" [wolf predation]

Of 163 total fawn deaths, only 4 were attributed to wolves; 9 to lions. Coyotes are much more common predators of fawns.

"i know the population of wolves can only continue to increase....nothing to prevent them from living as long as they dont take a ranchers calf or other livestock"

At present, removal of wolves because of depredation on livestock is likely the primary source of wolf mortality. However, there are additional sources of mortality. The significant reduction of wolves in YNP last year was attributed in large part to mange. We have also documented mange mortality in Idaho, along with mortality from vehicle collisions, interpack aggression, injuries (likely inflicted by potential prey), and unlawful take (shooting, poisoning).

"IE winter feeding"

Winter feeding will likely always be a controversial issue. Bottom line is it usually does more harm than good. Feeding generates a number of problems, both short and long term. However, under some situations (rare - very severe winters with very high concentrations of deer), winter feeding can maintain more deer than would have died without feeding. From a broader perspective, if a deer population suffers chronically low fawn weights, survival, and subsequent recruitment to the breeding population (as is the case in Salmon Region), one tends to suspect there may be habitat limitations. In general, if there appears to be a need to feed large mammals beyond rare circumstances, there are probably too many animals for that area to support.
 
It seems to me that a buck/doe ratio of 15:100 is very low for reproductive purposes. A doe goes into estrus for a very brief time. If she is unsuccessfully bred, then she will go into a second BRIEF estrus. My logic dictates that if there are only 15 bucks per 100 does, then these bucks probably can not service the entire 100 does. This due to the fact that does are spread out in herds or singly possibly by many miles. Bucks may tend certain does for periods of time waiting for these to go into estrus, while does a couple miles away aren't being tended when they are in estrus.

I think that the most obvious problem may be the toughest one to fix, i.e. habitat conditions, and lack of naturally occuring fires. More to the point, fires that are allowed to occur. If fawns are dying of malnutrition, then it points to a habitat problem, although some mortality is acceptable in worse/better than average snow (more) years.

I think that there are vast groups of people in organizations such as the DHI (Deer hunters of Idaho), RMEF, MDF, SFW, that would gladly put in labor time to improve conditions manually. The problem is logistics. The agency has to come up with ideas to improve habitat and guidance, and the org's need to get people to the site. It is too bad that there wasn't a twice a year meeting within the seperate offices at Fish and Game with local chapters of these org's to discuss various work projects.
They are starting an aspen rejuvenation in the SE, but this, or other projects, can happen in all regions. Just an idea.

Idaho fish and game are trying very hard to mitigate the problems associated with loss of mule deer herds in Idaho. The mule deer initiative will be watched by the various state agencies in the west. I think this is a very positive step forward and I commend Idaho f&g for being the first and most proactive.

I think Salmonfg is the biologist that I have been talking to about my sheep hunt. He is very knowledgable and a nice guy.
 
Salmonfg:
So if you collar 25 fawns in December, how many fawns had to hit the ground in June to have those 25 alive? In other words, if you could collar 25 NEWBORN fawns in June, how many would have died by December?

How many of those fawns would die from malnutrition vs. predation?

Thanks
 
The buck:doe ratio discussion is common and is often arbitrary, not enough for some an doing OK for others, obviously all hunters would prefer higher than lower, but normally this comes with some sort of compromise (less opportunity or something like this). In discussion with and review of information from IDFG blood work done on hundreds of captured does across the state, the pregnancy rates remain very high regardless of buck:doe ratios (normally over 90%).
As far as sportsman's groups go, many are great and their causes are very good, but it has been my experience that many just want to throw their money at a problem and this is definitely beneficial, but when it actually comes to getting out on the ground it is often lip service. I was involved in a couple of activities near Idaho Falls where RMEF volunteers were supposed to participate and only a couple showed up for the project and Pheasants Forever in the same area did the same thing a couple of times. This said I am not trying to hack on these conservation groups, I believe in most of their causes (I am a member in all that you mentioned, except SFW), but if we commit to helping on projects we need to ensure follow through. I know the Boise area has experienced some similar problems with volunteers. I know that F&G in Idaho Falls has really re-vamped their volunteer program and I encourage everyone to get involved, it is good to work on a project, it is rare to be able to have dialogue with a F&G biologist on such a personal level, it has been my experience that they are very open in talking about issues and concerns.

I agree about habitat concerns, it and weather are the 2 biggest issues impacting wildlife populations and also the hardest to do anything about, it seems daunting when you look at them. Around IF many forests are in terrible condition and need some form of disturbance. We need (as groups and individuals) to stay involved in the process of ensuring and promoting quality wildlife projects by land management agencies. When project proposals come out, conservation groups and individuals that would support the projects rarely voice their support and so agencies like the Forest Service only hear from groups and people opposed. Well, sorry for the diatribe.
 
"It seems to me that a buck/doe ratio of 15:100 is very low for reproductive purposes."

Sorry, but scientific evidence does not support this in mule deer. To my knowledge, research has yet to find a low-end buck ratio where pregnancy rates are impaired. In other words, from a biological standpoint, 3-5 bucks per 100 does is enough. Some states manage for 12/100 in large areas. In fact, recent analysis in CO indicated the reverse was true, fawn production was actually lower with some of the higher buck ratios. Current buck ratio objectives are purely a social issue.

"I think that the most obvious problem may be the toughest one to fix, i.e. habitat conditions, and lack of naturally occuring fires."

I agree. Though one problem with a blanket "let burn" approach is that we now sit at unnaturally high fuel loads so that fires burn hotter, etc. and can do a lot of damage, plus fires sometimes open the door for noxious weed invasion.

"I think that there are vast groups of people in organizations such as the DHI (Deer hunters of Idaho), RMEF, MDF, SFW, that would gladly put in labor time to improve conditions manually. The problem is logistics. The agency has to come up with ideas to improve habitat and guidance, and the org's need to get people to the site."

Agree again, and the agency does use volunteers for some projects. But another issue is the ability to get projects approved on federal land. Gone are the days when managers can just devise good projects and go out and implement them. Most everything requires and environmental assessment, compliance with all other special management issues (lynx, salmon, etc). Putting together a project can literally take years, only to have it shot down in a misguided lawsuit.

"So if you collar 25 fawns in December, how many fawns had to hit the ground in June to have those 25 alive? In other words, if you could collar 25 NEWBORN fawns in June, how many would have died by December?
How many of those fawns would die from malnutrition vs. predation?"

Our research guys are looking at that right now in this area (deer and elk) and conducted a long-term (5-yr) effort (deer) in southeast Idaho, but I don't have the data on cause specific mortality handy. Generally speaking, we've seen what I'd consider fairly normal levels of neonate mortality for this area - somewhere around 1/3-1/2 dying between Jun and Dec. Some caused by predation, accident, and malnutrition. I'll try to get back with specifics when I can get hold of our local research guy.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. I am curious as to the effect 5 bucks breeding 100 does has on the 5 bucks. God, it makes me tired just thinking about what those boys would have to go through! LOL.

Good thread guys!
 
Yea, good thread, I'm getting more answers from Salmonfg that I have at the local F&G open house events!

Salmonfg
Another question sparked by one of your comments. You say that "pregnancy rates" are not effected by low buck:doe ratios.

Growing up raising beef cattle we always preg checked. Usually with 95% preg rates. However, some of the cows were going to calve in February and some in May.

Do you have any data showing how far along the does are or can you just tell if they are pregnant?

On the surface, it seems that the biggest impact of a low buck ratio isn't eventually getting all the does bred, its getting all the does bred in a timely manner. If 90% of the does drop their fawns in a 10 day period in the spring, wouldn't the predation losses be less? If 90% of the does are bred in the first estrus cycle wouldn't the fawns be born earlier? Increasing weight and body condition going into the winter?

Could there be a correlation between low buck:doe ratios, and late fawn crops, leading to the lower weights/poor condition you mentioned earlier? Just getting the does bred seems to be only part of the equation.

I know that 5 yearling bulls will breed 100 head or more mother cows, but the calves will be born over a 60 day period (or more). 5 mature bulls will breed the same cows in half the time.

Thanks.
 
I agree excellent questions and I wish to add.

Salmonfg,

If science states that 3 to 5 bucks will adequately breed 100 does is the geography and terrain of the land factored in ? What factors or criteria set up determining buck:doe ratios?

Thank you for your time and great information.
 
Good questions.

"Another question sparked by one of your comments. You say that "pregnancy rates" are not effected by low buck:doe ratios."

There has been a lot of research on breeding synchrony, etc. for elk (Starkey project), but that level of data does not exist for mule deer. As we have not harvested does in this region for almost a decade, we don't have current specific breeding date data. However, there are a number of surrogate variables and info from other areas that help address the issue. One is that when capturing newborn fawns, we do see a very distinct birth pulse in early June, indicating a compressed rut period. Another is looking at fawn ratios during early winter and again in late winter/early spring across the range of mule deer. Analyses of these ratios compared to buck ratios don't show a relationship (again, CO did a fairly exhaustive analysis and buck ratios failed to explain changes in fawn ratios).

Getting back to the previous question of summer fawn survival. It varies, just like winter survival. In southeast Idaho 45-55% summer mortality seemed about normal with a little more than half attributed to predation and somewhat less than half to disease, malnutrition, accident, etc. Our sample size for last year's summer fawns here was small (11), but we saw high survival in the Salmon area. So far this year, with a larger sample, we are again seeing high survival for the first 2 months after fawning.

"If science states that 3 to 5 bucks will adequately breed 100 does is the geography and terrain of the land factored in ? What factors or criteria set up determining buck:doe ratios?"

No, topography is not factored in. But, data has been collected throughout the range of mule deer and encompasses a wide variety of terrain and habitat. I'm not saying there's no influence of terrian, but from a management perspective it's probably a fairly small source of variation that is strongly overridden by doe (and therefore fawn) nutrition, weather, predation, etc.

I'm not sure I entirely understand the second part of the question. If you mean criteria for setting up objectives for ratios , as I mentioned earlier, that's largely a social issue. It is essentially up to the public to determine what they want to see for buck ratios. This should be done during a planning process - when an agency gathers input for a 5- or 10-year deer plan. And it's critical to understand the tradeoffs for any given objective. Habitat, road density, escape cover, season timing, etc. all play roles in how hunting will impact buck ratios. In general, lower buck ratio objectives will allow more opportunity and higher objectives will allow less opportunity. But, there is not a linear relationship between ratios and opportunity. That is, reducing hunter numbers by 50% does not give a 50% increase in buck ratios. Depending where you start, to obtain "high" buck ratios, you must often drastically reduce "normal" opportunity - something like telling 80% of hunters they can't hunt. Take Utah as an example, to move to a statewide minimum of 15 bucks/100 several years ago, more than 2/3 of hunters were essentially told they could no longer hunt deer every year. Getting off topic a little, but a question to consider is whether some of those people gave up hunting entirely and if that "loss" of hunters had a positive or negative effect on hunting and the political "clout" of hunters? Another broad factor to consider is what tradeoffs, in terms of services to hunters, herd monitoring, research, etc., are you willing to give up or pay more for when hunter numbers are significantly reduced? Herds can be managed in a variety of ways, but every management scenario has pros and cons depending on your perspective.

Which brings us back full circle to the original post and providing input on the issues that are important to mule deer hunters. Please do!
 
This thread has so much good information, it shouldn't go away so quickly. What is the fire situation up around Salmon now?
 

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