WYO license odds - way up from past

[ICMDEER]

I checked the demand indices yesterday for nonresident deer licenses in Wyoming. The regions that used to be tough to draw are now really easy. In fact, only two regions were not 100% draw in the special licenses. Those were both over 70% draw. Some regions had only 1-2% applications for the license numbers available.

To me, this really says that the quality of Wyoming hunts has declined. If there were quality bucks in those regions, people would be applying like crazy for those licenses. It amazes me that Game and Fish can't see that the quality of the Wyoming deer hunting experience is on a big decline.

What do you think?

 

[Founder]

I think there were a lot of people who just applied for points as a first choice this year, hoping some of the old top units would recover a bit. I figured it would be fairly easy to draw region G, in the special deer tag pool. It was 53% last year and this year it was 71%. I actually thought the special in G would be closer to 100% this year.

I think region G has gone downhill. There are just so many hunters, even 6 miles from the roads we see LOTS of people. It's like hunting opening day in Utah!!
Lots of guys hunting for Mr. Big.

I like that pack-in hunt, so I had to go for it again this year.

I DO think the Wyoming G&F knows that quality has suffered. But they face the same issues that the Utah DWR faces---many people complain about tag cuts and everything else that is proposed in an effort to make things better. For every person trying to make things better, there's another sportsmen out there bellyaching about losing of opportunity, or "it costs too much", or something. In the end, the G&F depts. do nothing.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[camuleycrazy]

I agree with you Brian. I hunted G last year and was extremely disappointed. I won't apply again until the Wy G&F does something about hunter numbers. The country is awesome and the trophy quality was so great but that has gone downhill fast. I don't think they are close to limiting residents and that is the only thing that will solve the problem. Someday it will be good again. I just hope I can still climb those mountains then!

 

[ICMDEER]

Brian,

If Wyo G&F knows the quality is down, they sure don't admit it on this side of the state. And if there's ever a word that deer quality might be lower than in the past, the answer is always the same - drought. It's funny that the big pieces of private property with good management still have decent numbers of trophy quality bucks, with good buck/doe ratios. But the places like the Greys that had good numbers of big-time bucks 20-30 years ago have gone downhill fast. For those of us lucky enough to have been around long enough to make a judgement, the only significant factor is hunter numbers and the serious nature of today's hunters.

You are right, I used to go into the Greys in the early 80's and hunt a full week by myself. If I saw another person, it was rare. Now there's somebody in every basin.

No, there's no rocket science here. And I agree, I've been asking to make those areas limited quota or make residents pick one region for years. Game and Fish continues with the same answer - "There is no biological basis for limiting Wyoming residents to a single area." It amazes me that they can say that with a straight face.

I don't see this changing in my lifetime. It's too bad that at least some of the areas are not managed for quality. I can see some places need to be general season, but let's have a balance.

 

[RACKMASTER]

SEE WHAT HAPPEND TO AREA 102/
I HONESTLY WANT GARTH TO HAVE A STROKE!
have a nice day!
jack

 

[Founder]

We get the same BS every year here in Utah. A week before the hunt every year the news channel interviews the DWR and it's always the same. They tell us, "This should be a good year, lots of nice bucks---blah, blah, blah." And yes, drought is always what they blame it on when people return home complaining about how the hunt sucked.

I think the state F&G agencies know that technology, roads, etc. have hurt quantity and quality, but they don't want to admit it because they know as well as we do major changes are the only thing that will help. Major changes sometimes mean job loses, budget adjustments, etc. and they really don't want to roll the dice on their job by saying it's time to make serious changes.

In the early 80's, Utah cut tags big time. But, the only reason they did was because hunting was so bad that thousands and thousands of people were giving up on hunting. They figured that was a good time to cut tags to 97,000 because the demand wasn't even that high.

I think if they could get away with it, they'd sell even more tags. Luckily there are just enough people complaining about the horrible quality that I believe that keeps them from issuing more tags.

Wyoming is no different that Utah, Idaho, Montana, and other states. Management is for a handful of quality units and the rest of the state is for EVERYONE they can possibly pry license dollars out of. Not much in-between.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[BuzzH]

Not true at all...WY is nothing like MT with its management.

I've hunted MT for 25 straight years, this year will be year 26...MT allows rut hunts for Mule Deer in nearly the entire state...5 weeks of archery season and 5 weeks of rifle season.

Wyomings general units you get 2 weeks, usually in the most difficult time to hunt mule deer late september and early october.

Not even a comparison with MT's season structure.

WY still has some great quality general season mule deer...most just dont put the effort in...in the correct areas the correct way.

Easier to live in the past and complain.

 

[HighWidenHandsome]

I've hunted region G as well! Packed in on horses and stayed
2 different weeks eack year! I honestly believe thereis more hunter
pressure at least on the Grey's than there is anywhere in Utah! All
of that area is hunted very hard by outfitters the entire season.Yes, there are a fair number of young bucks and maybe a few
real good bucks! But every hunter is hunting for a wall hanger now
and there just ain't enough to go around! For those of you going for
a super buck I suggest you plan on just a nice camping trip with a
chance to meet a whole bunch of fellow hunters!

 

[Triple_BB]

>I've been asking to make those
>areas limited quota or make
>residents pick one region for
>years.

Are you serious. Right or wrong, the day the Wyoming G & F is being influenced by non residents regarding anything related to resident hunting is the day they'd need to throw out the G & F commissioners and fire the director...

 

[searcher]

ICMDEER is a WY resident. I think he is referring to the fact that he has attended a lot of public meetings with the G&F and speaks his mind. From what I know about him, he seems to have a good knowledge of the overall mule deer population in WY, at least in the areas that he hunts. The G&F should be influenced at least in part by what all hunters have to say about the issues since if hunters didn't buy licenses and pay the extra application fees and conversation stamp fees, they wouldn't have much of a budget to operate on. I suspect it is the same way in just about every state in the country. I live in West Virginia and the state calculates that every year hunting brings in somewhere around $200 million in extra revenue during hunting season. West Virginia manages strickly for numbers and generates a lot of revenue by selling extra buck and doe stamps. WV will never be a trophy state but most hunters want the opportunity to kill multiple deer each year so that is how the state manages it. I have been hunting in Wyoming every year since 1999. As a non-resident, I look forward to being able to hunt in WY every year. It is also frustrating that as a DIY hunter I may never get a shot at a decent muley buck. The odds for Region D went up from about 70% in 2005 to around 85% this year. At least, I don't have to go to Region J. However, since I drew my license this year, I have no preference points so I am at the bottom of the list next year. As a non-resident, I want the opportunity to hunt every year. Anything the Wyoming G&F does to improve mule deer hunting, I am all for it, even if that means I may not get to hunt every year. I speak to every game warden I come across in WY and try to pick their brains for info. I also make a lot of calls to the different local biologists. My impression from all this is that WY wants non-residents to get drawn because of the revenue they bring into the state but if they have any real answers on how to improve the hunting, they sure don't show it to me. Perhaps I just ask them the wrong questions. I am a relative new-comer to mule deer hunting and certainly don't quality as an expert but I have an interest in seeing the quality of mule deer hunting in WY improve since I expend major vacation time each year traveling to the state. IMO the WY G&F should pay more attention to what the public has to say. The WY G&F webpage has a recent survey report posted at http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/wydeerreport.pdf.

This is a 650 page report summarizing a phone survey of approximately 1000 resident and non-resident hunters. This report basically says that 85% of hunters in WY are satisfied with the quality of mule deer hunting in Wyoming. I was not one of those who were surveyed. If you read thru this report, the questions are pretty basic. I don't know anything about this survey. All I am pointing out is that this survey indicates that a large number of WY hunters are happy. If this is what the WY G&F uses to make management decisions, the hunting will never improve since this survey would indicate there is no problem.

Tim
Searchin' for a 4X4

 

[lostinOregon]

Tim,

I was one of the NR that was surveyed. I told them that they needed to cut hunter numbers for deer and that I had seen a significant decrease of quality and quantity. I see the same problem in most states, everyone wants to drive around and shoot a forked horn off the roadway say it was a great hunt, I personally don't get it but I think we are the miniority.

Rich

 

[nontypical]

I was not surveyed,either,and I would have given them an earful if I would've been.I go to all the meetings just like Jim(ICMDEER) does,and talk til I'm blue in the face.It's all for naught,because Wyo G&F does not want to hear it.They manage for maximum OPPORTUNITY.Period.They do NOT manage for trophy hunting.Mule deer are the bread and butter species for Wyo G&F,and they will $ell a$ many licen$e$ a$ they can.Get the point?They are all about the money(they call it opportunity),and mule deer are the species that end up holding up the dept.Doesn't matter that the species is in decline across it's historic range.G&F claims there is "no biological reason" to limit deer hunters.The historic trophy areas are going fast,and Wyo G&F does not care,a$ long a$ they get the dollar$.

 

[jvgunner]

I hunt Wy every 7 out of 10 years and where I hunt there are a lot of hunters. People in the sage & in the forest, on quads & 4x4's everywhere. With all that I still feel when I get out there every year I have a good chance of shooting a great buck!! Most of those people out there dont now how to hunt worth a ##### anyway, but who cares these people just want to get out there with there friends & family and have a good time that is what its all about anyway, Yea I know in region g there are to many people in the backcountry now, but the deer are still there. where i hunt there are not very many people that get off the road. I love it!!! stop whining turn in the bad guys & unite or we will loose our rights in the future.21 days till modoc bow hunt.

 

[ICMDEER]

Well stated, Cliff. And thanks for the thoughts, Tim. I did not get a survey either. I'd like to see a survey of Wyoming mule deer hunting completed by a neutral, outside entity. I think you'd get vastly different results than you do from the G&F survey. The way questions are set up and worded can have great influence on the results. That's why I'd like to see an outside party complete the survey.

There are tons of data out there that show mule deer numbers and qulaity are on the decline, but very little has changed in muley management in Wyoming over the past 30 years. I'd just like to see some areas managed for quality because I am convinced we are losing hunters from our ranks because they tire of the crowds and yearlings.

To their credit, G&F is really doing some creative things to try to reduce elk numbers here in the Laramie Range. They have all sorts of extra cow/calf licenses and have both early and late seasons to try to increase elk harvest. That's good and is appreciated.

I did complete a private survey last year for landowners and managers in SE Wyoming. Respondents represented over 400,000 acres of land and were unanimous that mule deer quantity and quality are much lower than 20 years ago. To their credit, the G&F biologists reacted well and eliminated the doe seasons in most areas.

It's a passionate issue and G&F is trying. Some of us are just carzy about mule deer and would like to see more emphasis on them.

 

[shotgunjim]

Lets just pray that Wy, Id, UT, Co, etc. never manages their deer herds like that trophy paradise state of Montana.


5 week general rifle seasons during the rut does wonders on deer herds.

 

[BuzzH]

ICMDEER,

I read a lot of your comments and I see some contradictions.

You want more "trophy" areas but I also see where you whine about not drawing an antelope tag in 10 years, never drawing a good deer area and no sheep tag in 30+.

Guess what, make a few more trophy units and they'll be all just like that...you'll hunt once every ten years if YOU'RE LUCKY.

I cant draw tags either, and since I've lived in WY the last six years I've drawn 3 antelope tags out of six years in an 80% draw odds area...never drawn a peaks elk tag...never drawn a "trophy" mule deer area either...no sheep, goat, or moose.

The problem with the trophy areas is they attract every six-fingered banjo picker that owns a rifle and buys Eastmans, trophy hunter, or garth carters rag. Less than 5% draw odds in those units is a joke. Oh, sure there will be some good deer in some of those units, too bad you'll likely NEVER hunt it.

On top of that, I dont like the fact that finding and harvesting a trophy buck is more about getting lucky in a draw then hunting hard. For reference see MT's unit 270...drawing the tag for that area is the toughest part of bagging a 180+ buck in that area.

I feel that in WY's general units if a hunter puts in his time he'll be rewarded handsomely for maximum effort. THAT is how it should be with trophy game animals. Those that put forth the most effort get the best critters.

I would think that any hunter with 1-2 firing brain cells in his head, with the capacity to hike, glass, and shoot...and also lay off the trigger...should be able to take a real quality buck in many of WY's general units.

I struggled along the first few years as a resident...but still managed to take solid buck mule deer in the 150 class. I've since done some serious research and in 2004 things began to click. I started seeing lots of bucks in the 165+ range and one that I'm sure was in the 190+ net class. I killed one in 2004 that gross scored 184 7/8 and netted 178 and change. Last year my two buddies both killed bucks over 190 gross in 2 different general units while I was with them...all from public lands.

I know theres better ones than that in both those units...and I know that we'll connect with them.

I like the seasons and the general units the way they are, and I hope they dont change many (if any) to draw units.

Trophy hunting should not simply come down to who is lucky in a drawing and who isnt...thats my take.

 

[nontypical]

Those are excellent points,Buzz.Jim and I whine because we remember how good it was,and how good it could be again.In G&F's defense,they have no control over long range shooting systems,ATV's,new roads everywhere,and all the other technological advances that have come along in the last 15 or so years.These things all have dramatic impact on mule deer.Too many bucks are getting whacked before they have a chance to grow a trophy set of antlers(at least 4-5 yrs of age).That being said,I still think G&F could stem the tide of some of this technology by enacting some stiffer regs in some areas to give the bucks more of a chance to age a little bit.Our legislature plays a large role in G&F laws,and oftentimes they seem to have thier collective heads in the sand(or somewhere else!).Good bucks can still be had in Wyoming,but you should have been here yesterday!!

 

[BuzzH]

Nontypical,

I agree with you 100% on the long range rifles, atv's, and easy access.

THAT is where the answer lies. Not in making more draw units.

I think access should be limited way more than it is now, in particular ATV use. I also think gates should be bought by the truckload by the BLM and FS.

The other thing to note is that it takes a little longer than 4-5 years to produce a true trophy class mule deer. More like 6-10 years.

I still think there is a way to keep general units open providing opportunity for anyone...and still maintaining quality for those that put in the effort. Best way to achieve that is to limit access and/or equipment.

I guess before I ever advocate draw only units, I'd rather see the season lengths cut to 5-7 days.

 

[ICMDEER]

Buzz,

Good points. If we had prefernce points, the system would be a lot more fair. You and I would draw the licenses in those tough areas as often as everyone else. What I really want is fairness, too. I shot a 30" buck last year in a public area, but he was in Colorado. I can't hunt many of the Wyoming seasons because I'm busy guiding. But you are right, there are a FEW good deer. I'm a die-hard hunter. I want less vehicle access. I have long advocated for more primitive weapon seasons. I'd like to see some muzzleloader seasons in Wyoming - the kind with open sights like some of our neighbors.

Anyhow, good points. But you should have seen what this state can do, and what it could be with just a little management. I'm convinced that if we went the way you suggest, with short seasons, plus some limited quota primitive hunts, we could still enhance quality. But we just get the status quo, and the comment that "there is no biological reason" for anything but the same old, same old. I can't agree with that. There's lots of room for positive change.

I can shoot an antelope (now 2 bucks) every year here near home, but I'd really like to draw the quality units in the Red Desert. Under the current system, I have not drawn for 15 years. I have a friend that's drawn 4 years in a row. That's not fair, so the system should be enhanced to allow for a more equitable distrubution of our public wildilfe resource. Sure, I can shoot a 13-14" goat at home, but I'd like to go shoot another booner before I die. A fair system woud help me get that license.

Anyway, I agree that you can find some solid bucks if you do your homework and put in some time. But as I've written many times in these forums, I won't go back to the Greys until the G&F limits licenses. The crowds totally wreck the quality of the hunt. I'll go elsewhere.

I'm just saying that there's room for positive change and we could all work toward that goal.

 

[BuzzH]

Even with a preference point system, you'd still likely only draw a tag every 10-15 years...at best.

I still believe the best way is to limit access or shorten seasons.

The primitive weapons...not sure it would work if its just an additional season to a general season. Just puts more pressure on the deer/elk/antelope.

Another thing I'd like to see is the number of outfitters cut in about half in the state of Wyoming...as well as MT, ID, etc. in particular those operating on public lands.

Oh, and I've never hunted the Greys or anywhere in region G.

 

[ICMDEER]

Buzz,

Not sure how you do your math. I apply for an antelope area that has 30-40% odds year in and year out. I can't see any way that it will take 15 years to get that license with preference points. I've now waited that long because the system is not equitable.

And I agree with you about the primitive seasons. If you read my post, I'm saying I prefer the limited quota areas, but would settle for shorter seasons in conjunction with some additional limited quota archery and muzzleloaader licenses like Colorado does.

Like I keep saying, I just want a FAIR SYSTEM that will allow me to have a quality hunt every few years. If Colorado can do it with all of the hunters there, I just can't see a reason why Wyoming can't accomplish the same thing with fewer people. I'm happy to hunt other general areas in the off years, or hunt with a primitive weapon in the off years.

As I keep saying, I really feel the present system can be enhanced to provide quality hunts and still afford Wyoming residents with a reasonable chance in the off years. All I can say is that the present system does not accomplish that and I'll work toward positive change. It's really positive and simple.

 

[nontypical]

Buzz,I totally agree with the age class you're talking about.I said a deer needs to be at LEAST 4-5 yrs of age.I killed a 4&1/2 yr old nontypical that scored 196,and my buddy killed a typical that went 35"and 197"gross,also a 4 yr old.Pretty hard to find a 6-10 yr old buck nowdays in a general hunt unit,trust me on this one.I agree with Jim,the system we now have is not fair.The lucky few keep on drawing the tags.I don't know what the answer is,but I feel we definitely need some change.Later,N.T.

 

[huntwyo]

As a Wyoming resident I would be strongly opposed to any type of preference or bonus point system for deer antelope or elk. I would support a waiting period for some tags, say 2-5 years before you could reapply, but I personally like the chance I have to draw a good tag every year, and even if I don't draw, the general hunting is better than most other places. I think bonus or preference point systems favor a small number of individuals at the expense of everyone else, particularly young hunters who may have to wait years and years until they have realistic chance at a decent tag; look at Utah for example. No matter what type of system is used, simple math says that when there are more people who want tags than there are tags available-someone is going home without a tag-period! In an attempt to make a ?fairer? system I think that many states have opened a Pandora?s box.

 

[BuzzH]

ICMDEER,

While I didnt do real well in most of the college math courses I took, I did the best in statistics...

I was thinking more along the lines of less than 5% draw odds found in nearly every trophy mule deer draw in Wyoming. I think any new draw units that were created would soon have similar odds.

Not sure what math courses you've taken...but 5% or less draw odds to me says 1 tag every 20 years.

I highly doubt you'd ever see draw odds of 35-40% in any trophy mule deer draw areas.

I think a person just has to come to the realization that there will never be a "fair" system when random draws, preference/bonus points, etc. are involved.

The way to "beat" the system is just apply, roll the dice and see what happens.

Since I'm really not all that lucky in the draw (although I did draw both goat and moose in MT)...I concentrate my efforts on learning areas that I can hunt every year. I just put maximum effort into research, scouting, and hunting in the general units.

I'm pretty darn excited every year to get a general deer tag and I doubt I'd find much better deer in one of the "trophy" units. In particular when you draw tags for them so infrequently. Depending on the year you draw...those good tags could really be a major disappointment.

My opinion is still to leave the general units in place and concentrate on access issues, atv's, and the number of outfitters permitted on public lands.

 

[huntwyo]

Math or statistics?its semantics, there was no attempt to impugn anyone?s numeric skills. The point I was making, is that not matter what system is in play the demand is always greater then the supply. I would support more primitive weapons hunts and more archery only options; I think both could expand the options available to hunters, increasing opportunities without resorting to point system.