Too many mature bucks!!!!

L

lifeisgood

Guest
I got alot of BS for my "doe" post and was accused of "playing God" when it came to herd management. I felt it was ok (or even better in some cases) to harvest a doe (if you HAVE TO fill your tag, And its legal, and...blah, blah, blah...) as opposed to shooting a young buck (that may grow up to be the BIG CAHOONA)
So, since I was apparently wrong when I suggested there are an overabundance of does IN SOME AREAS, (and it is OTAY to shoot them) then why is it ok for ANY OF US to shoot ONLY mature bucks???? Is there an overabundance of them? Do "they" NEED to be thinned?
This question isnt directed ONLY at BOBCAT, but I have a funny feeling he will have an answer a few others can "capitalize" on.

life IS good
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-06 AT 11:22PM (MST)[p]I think that one of the main problems is that too many people feel that a hunt is unsuccessful if they dont take a deer home. I have eaten so many tags but have yet to have an unsuccessful hunt. If I learn something new and have a good time then I think anything above and beyond that is a bonus. I personally have never shot a doe for meat because I dont really need it. I might shoot one this year and donate it.

Drum
 
Its funny you should mention your defenition of successful hunt. I had discussed the same thing earlier this eve with a friend.
Some of the most memorable (and succesful) hunts I have ever been on didnt involve a kill.

life IS good (when each hunt is a success)
 
Washington wildlife managers would love to harvest more antlerless (does)to help keep the buck to doe ratio where they want it and contol the total deer herd population. Winter kill will eventually do the job but harvesting the does is more humane and better for the herd.

Permits in our area have gone to "any deer". We hope that permit hunters will either harvest a mature buck or take home an antlerless "trophy". Leave the healthy young bucks in the herd.
 
What is a successful hunt.... not an easy question to answer.

There are two qualities to every hunt; time with your buds, and the excitement of the moment you take the deer. If you get time to feel like a man, do the things men were meant to do, and enjoy some time in the wild with true friends I think it is a memorable trip.

Is it successful without the deer? I wouldnt call it that. Success of the hunt means taking the deer. Anyone who goes home empty is going to be disappointed. If you're saying different I'd have to call you on that. The hunt would have been something much better had you taken the deer.

The true question we really mean to be asking each other here is, "Was it worthwhile even without a deer?"

You betcha. Everytime.

Cactus
 
Here in Nevada, youth tags are given from ages 12-15. They are good for ANY DEER and for all three seasons...archery, muzz and rifle. I'm sure that any kid hunting for the first time would love just to harvest an animal, be it a buck or doe. I'm not sure if other states have adopted this ANY DEER for their youth tags, but it might be a good idea.
Fly
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-06 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]I think I have to agree with what's been said. The success of a hunt is measured on if you actually bring home an animal that you have actively pursued.

That's not to say that people who come home empty handed don't have a great time. If it was just about the kill and the taking of an animal I think a lot of us hunters would have gave up a long time ago or at least I know I would have.

Hunting means something different to each of us and for me to hunt in the company of family and friends is really what it's about. If someone in our party is successful then I am as happy for them as I would be for myself. Others prefer the solitude that it felt when they finally crest that long acent and are truly surrounded by no one and nothing but nature.

Whether it's a big buck, a lonely doe or even if it's tag soup, it's all good times. I don't know of any hunter that can honestly say I would have rather been at work!
 
THE ONLY HUNTERCAMERON THAT HAS A BLAST SCOUTING MULE DEER ALLL YEAR LONG !!

WATCH OUT M.M. MEMBERS I'M YOUNG , AND YOU'LL BE SEEING ALOT OF ME , AND MY BUCKS!!

JUST GOT INTO ARCHERY!

IT'S ALL THE WASATCH FRONT NOW .

GLAD I LIVE RIGHT NEST TO IT BETWEEN SOME CANYON , AND SOME OTHER ONE .

ALL THE BUCKS I SEEN LAST YEAR BEFORE, I STARTED ARCHERY THAT HAD ARROWS STUCK IN THERE BACK LIMBS !!

RIGHT AFTER THE HUNT ENDED !!

LEARN HOW TO TAKE SHORTER SHOTS!!!

THANS THOSE 100 PLUSERS!!

SAW 5 BUCKS THAT WERE LIMPING AFTER THE HUNT!!LAST YEAR..

MAKES ME SICK!!

ONE OF THEM HAD BLOOD ALL OVER HIS LEGS COULD BARELY WALK!

THE ONLY PERSON WONDERING IF THOSE PEOPLE THAT MADE LIMP HITS ARE ON HERE ON M.M.

I KNOW MOST OF YOU ON HERE ARE THE GOOOD ONES I HAVE SEEN UP THERE THESE PAST YEARS .

WHO TAKE ETHICAL SHOTS !!

HAPPY HUNTING THIS FRONT !

MAYBE WILL MEET !!

IF YOU COULD SEEE MY SNEAKY ASS!!
 
If you are truly hunting for meat and you can shoot does......then shoot them...If more people would let the younger bucks grow, more people could shoot bigger bucks...Common sense should kick in and tell people that course you (lifeisgood) are going to have a tough time convincing many of the folks on this site of that.....I am with you on this though, that if you claim you are a meat hunter, then you should be shooting does......Otherwise it should be 4 point or better.(BTW, that is 4 point on normal people count that is 4 point on one side and 4 on the other)...
 
Is it just me or is this a stupid thread? " Shoot does" and " Too many mature bucks" just doesn't sound like Monster Muley talk.
 
Life,

I'm with you 100%. Many wildlife managers in many states have made your point over and over and have complained that people don't get it.

If you are in a state that has 15% bucks and you only hunt for bucks, you can't really tell an anti-hunter that deer hunting is good because it keeps the population down.
 
Well I've said this before, very little hunting in the western US is to "Control The Herds". We hunt because we want to. We shoot bucks because we need the does to produce more bucks for next year.
To control herds, biology will tell you that killing females is how it's done.

There are places where does should be harvested, but there are many, many, many more places where we cannot afford to kill does.

"Controlling The Herd" is really just a hunters way to justify to non-hunters WHY he/she hunts. But it's not fact in most cases.

Most people hunt bucks because first of all, most don't REALLY need to meat. It costs more to hunt deer than to just go buy beef. We also hunt bucks because there just isn't that much of a challenge in killing a doe.
I think the challenge of hunting is what drives people to do it, that's the case for me. I like spending time (a little) with family and friends, but I can do that at the lake, 4-wheeler riding, etc. I hunt because of the challenge. The getting up early everyday, dealing with bugs, cold weather, eating crappy food, hiking miles and miles everyday, etc. is what adds to the challenge. The rewarding feeling when the buck is finally down after dealing with all the challenges, is WHY most hunters are addicted to hunting.

That's what I think. I'll admit, I don't hunt big bucks because I need the meat or because I think I'm need to "control" the herd. I hunt them because of the challenge involved.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Just for the record, I see no problems with shooting any animal if you have the proper license druing the proper season. If somebody has a problem with me shooting a Doe during an antlerless season, take it up with the DWR for issuing the permit. Dont bash another hunter because he isnt shooting the animal that YOU think he should shoot.



 
I agree with Tony on this one also.

What ever happend with "hunting to put meat on the table"?

For all you trophy hunters out there that take offense to someone shooting a doe, young buck, cow, or young bull because there are not enough "trophies" in the population...I say, put your rifle, bow or what ever you hunt with away. Pick up a camera and give us an awsome photo of that 20 yard stock you put on it. Can you imagine how many guys around the "Front" would have loved to get there very own photo from 20 yards of "The General"!!! How many offspring could have developed from him by now if he wasn't killed?

I could only hunt one weekend this year. Last weekend as a matter of fact. I don't need the meat so I did not by a tag. Took the trusty sony, my cow call, and headed out to help my brother and his wife harvest a spike bull. Was it a good hunt? Worth every minute of the 3-1/2 hour drive. Did I put a dent in the overall population of mature elk? Not a chance.

You want to see more big bucks or bulls! Stop killing them just for the "trophy"..
 
My response to the whole shooting a doe complaint is that no one is saying that they're not looking for that nice buck they would like to take. Most of us would not take a doe until maybe the last weekend or possibly the last day of the season. I'm like everyone else in that I want to shoot a nice buck but if I don't find one and the herd can afford a few does out of the population, theres nothing wrong with taking one. Does that mean you didnt have to work for it? I think if you have been looking for that big buck that never showed himself of course you worked for it! You just didnt get the shot. Now if you go out and sit over an alfalfa field on opening morning- you didnt "work" for it. Its up to the individual. Me? If I don't find the buck thats for me- I'll take a doe because they taste good- better than that 5-8 year old buck. Am I right?
 
This is my third year in the dedicated hunter, if I dont see the buck I'm looking for during the muzzy, rifle, late bow hunt I have no problem shooting a doe.
 
As a general rule, hunting out West, to "Control the Herd" is not so readily evident. It is more of a factor back East with the exposion of the Whitetail in recent times. But in actuallity, any deer herd will control itself without any hunting. If a population increases to the point that they eat themselves out of house and home, then Nature will do it on its own. There will be starvation and disease. In a balanced, natural ecosystem, an explosion of deer will also bring on an increased population of predators. Between predators, starvation and disease the herd will decline which will allow the feed to come back. As the herd declines the predators have a harder time and they in turn will decline. As the predators decline and the feed increases, the deer herd begins to increase again. And so the cycle goes and has been going long before man was a factor.

Modern wildlife management seeks to create a more even balance, with fewer highs and lows. In theory anyway. With habitat protection and enhancement, and elimination or control of predators, a surplus is available for hunting. Under the right circumstances, hunting CAN and MAY include does. Given that situation I see nothing wrong. Some hunters would rather shoot and eat a doe than see her starve to death or be eaten by a predator or die from disease. You may not want to shoot a doe, but nobody should rag on someone who does, in my opinion.

Having said that, you also may not agree with your DWR's assessment of the overall health of your deer herd, and you should address them on that. But the whole theory behind hunting really is to "control the herd".

Steve
 
Sorry dude, Looks like you're the only one who thinks this post is stupid. "Outnumbered" AGAIN! Darn the bad luck. Say, how 'bout those pics of your Boone and Crockett bucks and bulls you mentioned the other day?
That way we will have something WORTHY to talk about instead of does.

life IS good
 
TOO MANY MATURE BUCKS???

WTF???

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS???

WAS IT A LATE NIGHT PIPE DREAM???

OUR HERD HAS BEEN WAY OVER CONTROLLED FOR TOO MANY YEARS!!!

I DON'T KNOW OF ONE FRICKEN PLACE ON EARTH THAT HAS TOO MANY MATURE BUCKS!!!

IF THERE WERE SUCH A PLACE THERE'D BE SOME MONEY MEN GETTING RICH RIGHT AS WE SPEAK!!!

ARE YOU GOING TO SEND ME A FRESH MOOSE STEAK lifeisgood???

THE ONLY bobcat WITH THE TRUE MEANING OF PISSCUTTER:SUB TROPHY QUALITY OF THE SPECIES,IF YOU USE THE WORD PISSCUTTER YOU'D BETTER KNOW WHAT IT MEANS OR EVERY M.M. MEMBER & EVERY PERSON ON THE WWW WILL BE LAUGHING THEIR ASSES OFF AT YOU,ALL YOU DOE-SHOOTERS CAN KISS MY TAIL ALSO,YOU MUST BE A GREAT WHITE HUNTER WHEN YOU BRAGG YOU SHOOT DOES,HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL WHEN YOU KILL 2 OR 3 DEER WITH ONE SHOT,FRICKEN FAWN KILLERS,THAT AIN'T A HUNT THATS A SHOOT!!!
 
I wasn't going to chime in on this one until I read Elgrasses' excellent post and it inspired me to log in and post my two cents worth. First, back to lifeisgood's original post on doe's, if you truly hunt for the meat, then taking a doe makes sense in most places. Personally, I do not like killing baldy's, deer or elk, so I often eat elk tag soup, but rarely eat buck tag soup as I have earned my name here. But, to the issue at hand on does, bucks and controlling the deer herd. Are there too many mature bucks? NO Are there too many does? Yes in some places, but mother nature usually has her say, as was pointed out. The real question I have is>>>>>>>>Are there really too many deer or are we commercially developing this country to darn fast and encroaching on them faster than we realize? Are the deer proliferating on us faster than we are developing on them or vice versa? I am lucky that I often can hunt in 3-5 states each year, not because I have excess money, cause I don't. But, each year I usually visit Montana, Oregon, Arizona and New Mexico, each year I am taken back by the residential and commercail expansions, each year farther out, farther into the woods, where we hunt, where the game lives. Even more confusing, are some of my urban friends and people I meet who tell how they don't hunt but hate the deer, so kill them all. Huh, you just built your $500,000 home out in the suburbs on a large lot, cut down very old trees and now complain about the deer. These people who have good jobs and influence complain to their community leaders who complain to the wildlife agencies who keep saying kill more does. Hmmmm, I am in know way suggesting we should maybe keep the people in check along with the deer, but I am saying that we are developing this country like MAD (Ok, the economy is slowing) and our longer term problem as hunters ain't too many does or bucks or really the antis, but land development in general. This is why I staunchly support RMEF and organizations like them who preserve and protect our lands. We talk alot about the antis and the pros (hunters), but the land development is screwing us all. Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I been out of town alot this summer and drove out to one of my hunting areas yesterday and there was a new development sprouting up on top of what was a beautiful ridge line above the James River, then down the road a few more miles a brand new timber harvest butting up to the Appalachian Trail, digusting site I must say. Anyhow, since this is a hunting site, back to the post at hand, no not too many mature bucks, but this is what drives alot us, that illusive trophy, the big one that is out there somewhere. I spend so much darn money on hunting each year that I could probably buy 2, 3 maybe 5 beefs, so the vension which I love is great, but not the real driver as the experience in the woods and pursuing teh goal of that big elk or buck. Its all about getting in the woods, away from it all and pursuing that mature buck-the goal for many and there are enough good racks out there that if you pay your dues, you will be rewarded.

Hunt hard and have a great season!

JL
 
A hunter should be able to shoot whatever is legal to shoot.If you feel shooting a doe to fill your tag at the last minute is what you need to do,then go for it.Personally,my take on that is anyone who does that needs to feed their ego by filling the tag.My ego is fulfilled by killing big bucks.If I can't find one of those,tag soup tastes pretty good.What really gripes me is the "Trophy Hunter" who shoots a doe or small buck on the last day or two of season.Many big bucks are killed on the last hour of the last day.Don't call yourself a "Trophy Hunter" if you are not willing to wait it out at the expense of not filling your tag.Doesn't it make sense(it does to me)that if more areas were managed for older age class there would be more younger bucks also?I've seen Wyo G&F almost destroy one of the premiere big buck units in the state in the early '90's by issuing too many doe tags.In the name of "management",they attempted to stave off a possible bad winter kill.It was possible to purchase as many as nine(9) additional doe deer tags in addition to your buck tag.You could buy 13 additional antelope tags in addition to your buck tag.You read correctly.You could take 22 does plus your bucks.You wouldn't believe the numbers of guys who did just that.I could go on and on,but for the sake of keeping this short,the herds have NEVER recovered from this farce.Neither species.So you guys go ahead and kill all the does you think you need for the sake of "filling your tag".Just remember your Game and Fish dept is not infallible;not always right.
 
I have never called myself a "trophy hunter" That sounds bad to me. Is ALL that you want just ANTLERS? Are the antlers the "trophy"? Dont forget those big calcium deposits will be attached to the rest of your "trophy" (including the meat)
The hunter harvest in WY MAY be to blame for what your current low antelope and muley population (in your premiere big buck unit), but dont forget mule deer #s crashed in alot of western states in the early to mid 90s, (bigtime!) even in areas where the tag situation had remained the same and in areas that didnt allow the harvesting of ANY antlerless muleys! I was here to see it. What happened there?

life IS good (but not good enough to where I would EVER call myself a "trophy" hunter)
 
It sounds to me like we all need to get together and have a meeting with the F&G and find out what there reasoning is for giving out so many antlerless tags. They think they can get an accurate reading on the herds by flying around in a helicopter. They have been overharvesting the wildlife for years. Sportsman know more about managing the herds than they do. I say we head to the White House and take over.
 
G-damn 40incher, you have some SERIOUS issues with people flying. If you can do such a better job at managing wildlife, why don't you go work for G&F and change it. Most of them actually went to school for this stuff, did you? If not, let them do their jobs, or if you can do better, do it. I'm sure there are openings in most states.
 
I agree mostly with Brian (Brian) I hunt because of the challange to kill a nice buck but also because I love being in the outdoors. If I could only kill a doe I wouldn't hunt. I don't Elk hunt because in this state you have to draw a branched antlered bull tag. During the general season it's spike only. No thanks. I have eaten many Idaho nonresident tags because I didn't find the buck I wanted and that's ok with me. Doe's need to be culled in some area's and that's fine I just don't want to be the one doing it. Let the folks who want to and love venison do it.
 
lifeisgood;I never called you a "Trophy Hunter".By your posts,it's obvious you aren't one.I don't have the least problem with that.If I kill the first legal animal I see,the hunt is over.That's why,over the years,I became a "Trophy Hunter".If the term sounds bad to you,I guess that's your problem.I don't mind it at all,but then I'm not "politically correct",never have been,never will be.I hunt because I believe it's my RIGHT as a human being on Earth.As long as I'm legal and ethical(according to my own personal ethics),I should be able to hunt exactly the way I see fit(which is what you've been espousing from the start).I just don't personally see a need to fill my tag every year.Period.BTW,antlers mean very much to me.ALMOST as much as the hunt itself.I love everything about antlers.Especially great big ole muley antlers!
 
Well said Brian. After days of sleepless nights legs burning and the cold after a big ol bruiser is down I dont think I remember anything else.LOL I personally could buy several beefs for what it costs me to take a buck.
As for the doe thing. Youths can shoot either sex in some units here in Idaho. My son shot his first 2 yrs ago and last year he wanted to change over to horns. i was like right on. More time for me in the field. Got to love those kids decisions. Just as long as he doesnt change over to 4x4 or better.LOL But he does enjoy being out in the field also. I think he is getting the bug.RUT RO !!!!!!

fca2e9e9.jpg
 
Nontyp... I can assure you I rarely ever kill the first legal animal I see, and I have NEVER killed the first legal antlered animal I have the chance to tag each fall. I dont recall having ever missed hunting till dark the last day of "big game" season. (sometimes after almost 5 months of hard hunting)
Some would call me a "trophy" hunter (I dont) I dont hunt "just" for what somone else (or a book) would consider a "trophy"
Its been my observation MOST (yes, MOST, not ALL, but MOST) people that like to label theselves as a "strict" or "hard core" TROPHY hunter (especially the frequent and "loud" labeling therof), are hunting to impress others and not as much to challenge their OWN skills.
I was just curious as to others thoughts on how they think of (and label) themselves.
I hear all kinds of preaching on "challenge" Its terribly hard to harvest a 400 bull, even with a high powered rifle, would it be a "trophy"?? Isnt it equally as hard to harvest a young buck, with, lets say, an ATL-ATL spear? Would taht make it an "equally challenging event" and therfore a "trophy" as well?
The whole point of this post is "trophy" (to me at least) is a vauge term to describe what a SINGLE person believes is a HUGE acheivment for them. Not what T. Roosevelt, Uncle Ted, Daniel Boone or Johnny Appleseed think is a trophy, but what you and I do (individually) I hope we are all "TROPHY" hunters in a way. Thats implying (I hope) that we are proud of and respect what we have harvested.

life IS good
 
I really don't understand the so called trophy hunters school of thought. Those of you that feel that you would rather be tarred and featherd on the court house steps rather than shoot a doe/cow, have you ever studied any form of wildlife management? Wether it is the west with mule deer or in the east with whitetails, the land can only support a certain amount of animal units. Herd size is just as important here in the west as anywhere. Do go hike some of the wintering grounds and look at the ground. Not just for sheds but the look at the sage and mountain mahogany. Look at how hard it is browsed. If there is say enough feed to support 200 deer how would you like to see that feed dispersed? 10 mature bucks 10 immature bucks, 120 does and a recruitement of 60 PER year? Or would you rather there be more feed for those mature and immature bucks? Wouldn't it be nicer for those buck numbers to be double and those doe numbers to be less. More oppurtunities for that Big buck. Pennsylvania has probably the most deer per square mile (probably square foot) than anywhere in the country. Hunting is a huge part of the culture there. For years the average buck was a 1 1/2 year old spike or fork killed by the thousands. They have since changed to 3 and 4 point restrictions and gave everyone 3 plus doe tags. People went nuts. Threatened law suits and legislative action. Game managers stuck to there guns.It took about three years to see the reults. Now they still kill tens of thousands of bucks every year, still near record numbers but they are lot bigger and everyone has a huge smile on their face. I live within 20 minutes of probably the best mule deer zone in Montana. I can't seem to draw a buck tag there as there are only 150 tags issued annually. But there are 700 mule deer doe tags issued every year. I elk hunt there as it is a general unit for elk. I have never been there with out seeing at least 2 or 3 bucks that will score over 150. In fact one day before archery season we went for a 4 hour 4 wheeler ride and counted 42 bucks including a couple 30 inch toads. The doe harvest there is essential for leaving enough feed for those bucks to grow those all important monster racks.

My best trophy is a fork horn whitetail I killed when I was 20 years old. I spotted him before the season learned his pattern and killed him at fifteen yards with my bow. best experience of my hunting career.
Those that have said that a doe is easy to shoot were do you base that from? If you are talking about a 1 1/2 year old that stands next ot the road I agree. But I would wager that a 7 year old doe that has had to protect here fawns over the years from lions wolves bears and cars going 80 down the highway is just as tough and wary as any buck.
Lastly if you feel it is below you to harvest a doe than you are part of the problem. Let other peole handle that trivial task so you can skim of the cream of the crop. If you don't want the meat that is fine. Take a kid to you favorite haunt and let them whack that easy doe. Or some old timer that just can't around very well anymore. Or drag a animal out by themselves any more.
There will never be too many mature bucks but there could be more if people got down off of their bar stools and listen to more people than the drown on the stool next to them.

I'm done for now.

HNTNHRD (HUNTING HARD)
 
Here is a question everyone has to ask themselves. We have a choice. Each person gets to choose what they harvest. If people put in for hard o draw units or say trophy units and they draw then they are hunting for horns. If someone puts in for a doe hunt then they are hunting for doe's or meat. I personally am referring to here out west or my state I live in. Dont know what every other state has to offer and have no desire to hunt anywhere else unless I win the powerball then I will hunt as many states as I can.
I have talked to quite a few of others by email or phone on some of these sites and have came to the conclusion that an average person that lives in area's with good numbers of bucks bulls or whatever seem to harvest the or hunt for antlers. If someone lives close to an area and has spent alot of time in said unit then he gets to hunt it then his odds are a little better to harvest the bigger horned animals. If higher number exist in these areas for more mature animals would that not be the norm? Why hunt smaller animals if you know there are bigger animals there? Not saying that you know there are animals in a area and never see them. But if you have seen the big ol animals where you go and say more than one why would anyone settle for a smaller one.I know people that live in area's like this and that is what they hunt. I am not against someone that settles for anything small or a youngster or a doe. Because i do agree with everyone that any animal is a trophy. Each person has the choice to harvest any animal they want. But some people like to hunt the mature animals. There is nothing wrong with taking a small doe or a B&C or P&Y animal. Plus if in some area's there are multiple animals like say back in the eastern states where I believe some places have a ton of tags available i would be there taking out what tags I have. Say 4 doe's and a buck tag that is exactly what I would do.
But like I said each person has a choice on what they harvest. Who cares what they harvest. I hunt to be out there because I can and will. I hunt anything that is legal and do. i have the time and money to do it at this time in my life. I hunt the 4 food groups and some of the desserts. 4 food groups are elk, mule deer, bears ,and antelope. desserts are ducks, geese, phesants ,turkeys , quails and anything else legal. Also doves tomorrow with son.
Sorry for the ramblings


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Hey sremim,
for whatever it's worth I want to apoligize for changing your name to a bodily fluid. That was totally uncalled for and I hope you forgive me. Can't we just get along. I actually have a degree in criminal justice and have thought about becoming a game warden, maybe I need to pursue making a difference for the Wildlife.
 

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