"gang hunting"

[BUCKSPY]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]If your planning to hunt during the next three deer and elk season in Colorado, you might want to take a look at AZBuckhunter's accusation about hunting then if you have friends or family along and there happens to be snow.

He posed a question to me and I gave my response but I might be misled and maybe others can help me see the light. Here is his question to me and my response.

BUCKSPY,
I asked you on another thread to address your judgemental hypocrisy and arrogance about the way trophy muleys are hunted and harvested these days. I didn't get your answer.

And now, here you are again blasting others while you and your buddies annually practice gang hunting and winter range hunting of these great animals. This has been documented in your recommended "Eastmans Journal" magazine.

What gives, Mike?

AZBH

AZBuckhunter-Never saw any question posed to me about "gang hunting and winter range hunting". I did a search on your handle and couldn't find it so I assume it was deleted. If hunting with my friends in an legal open season that occurs in early November and we happen to get snow can be construed as "gang hunting and winter range hunting" by you, I dont feel the need to go much further on this but just for the sake of some friendly cyber-banter I will.
I guess I see some of the parallels in your comparison of my friends and I getting up at 4 A.M. and climbing up into some rougher country to hunt and guys sitting on a deck waiting to shoot human-habituated bucks near houses. It wasn't clear at first but now I see.

So just so everyone is clear on this, if one hunts in a rifle season in Colorado with friends or family and it happens to snow during the season, one is guilty of "gang hunting and winter range hunting" by your standards?

There are a hell of alot of guys on this website preparing to engage in "gang hunting and winter range hunting" in the next three combined deer and elk seasons here in Colorado. Its obvious you have tried to insult me by your post but you have also done the same to everyone else on this site who is also planning to hunt then. Or am I just special for the insults because I have been somewhat successful in my hunting and have written some stories and the anonymity of the internet makes it much easier for you to vent?

 

[Bambistew]

Buckspy, thanks for reminding my why I don't get Eastmans magazine anymore.

 

[huntsonora]

BUCKSPY, that guy is a tool! He comes on every now and again to stir ##### up.

Drum

 

[TFinalshot]

Call me a gang hunter. If youre hunting in montana, most of it, with the exption of a few high country areas, its "winter range." So, if you hunt deer in montana, durring november, in the snow, youre hunting winter ranges, and if your with friends youre gang hunting. I think a lot montana hunters would be considered gang hunters then.

I'll add some flame to this fire. What's it called when you add the rut to the mix? In montana rut hunting is durring the genneral season. I'm not saying I support 100% open season rut hunting, but for now it's the rules.

 

[Muley62]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 11:14AM (MST)[p]Me and a buddy will be hunting mule deer in CO during the 3rd season and the deer are already on the winter range. We are going to wear our gang colors (Realtree Max1 camo), heck we might even "tag" an aspen tree!

Can I buy a can of spray paint in southern CO?

 

[browtine]

You hunt with friends?!?!?!? Tisk Tisk!

Later, Brandon

 

[isayNUNYA]

YO! SUP BEOCH me an my "posse" will be bustin it on yo block bout the 15th a NOV. We be doin a drive by on sum smack talkin trash wearin bucks belly deep in da sheet while he's pimpn his bitchs yo.
Now me an my boyz gotta move it on down an bus sum heavy ats makin tracks in the red sand on our corner a SO-UT.


THE ORIGINAL NUNYA KICKIN IT IN CO BABY COME NOV 15.

 

[HullinPhx]

And I thought this post was going to be about going " GANG " hunting. You know head over to LA and pick off a little bangers wearing Red and Blue...



John

 

[muleybull]

I dont have any friends, so I guess I'm o.k.

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!

 

[B_F_E]

Orange is the only color I fly while chillin in Co.
That way I don't get no cyber B-slaping, also herd one of my posse might be kickin it with da BK-spy.

Hoping to do a drive by myself come early Nov.
Beefy wigger out.

 

[sonofthesouth]

P Diddy Drummond and I will be "gang huntin" the shizzle out of a bucky fizzle this weekend in N.M.

Thats how we roll dogs.

Son of the south

 

[Ridn9high]

In East L.A. the crips throw up BK(Blood killa) and on the West side of Colorado we also throw up BK(buck killa). We represent "Green" homie and throw up gang signs all day long.

 

[archerelk]

Here is where he posted the original question.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/8458.html#53

 

[sonofthesouth]

In that same orignal post, where BUCKSPY talks about P&J jungles and the loss of habitate to these trees and its contributing factor on deer-To still aphraze from Xzibit on pimp my ride "this is church."

Son of the south

 

[bowhunt]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-06 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]I am not picking sides, or saying one person is wrong or right.
I have no idea how Buckspy hunts.

In the post by AZ. I believe he refers to having 10-15 guys out scouting all year round for a deer. Then making the call back to the guide or the shooter to come on up and shoot the buck.
This happens way to often. In Utah the scouts get a 5k finders fee.

 

[proutdoors]

What troop are they representin to get that kinda bling?

 

[sonofthesouth]

You have to put it all into prospective. The govenors tag sold this year in utah for $150,000. Im not sure what the resident licence fee is for utah but if were here in NM. That would be the same as 5000+ instate hunters and 769 non-res hunters. Dont forget, that is for one deer, not ant percentage of the other 5000 or 769. Now, a little about the hunters that buy these tags; David Meyer is the utah tag holder, I have had the pleasure of meeting and hunting with this fine man. You could go a life time and not meet a more genuine or humble man. He is a true sporstsman, outdoorsman, and friend to all hunters. The money that he has spent in Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico is just a fraction of what the public knows about. David, and men like him have chosen to give back to the sport they love, which is in effect giving to all of us. They could easily save that money or buy a small Island somewhere but thank heavens they spend it on hunting. We should all be gratefull to some degree. Hell, we should all be out trying to find them a buck. $156,000 for one utah buck? Think what that could do for utah deer! WOW!

Son of the south

 

[cohntr6]

What happened to the post where the constrction guys and homeowner that were trying to shoot deer off their back deck?
I think it was posted by BrianID? or somebody like that. That post sure had AZBH going.
Jeff

 

[sonofthesouth]

AZBH turned that thing into his own pile of crap so it was pulled I'm sure. I would also like to know about the "porch deer"

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

Son of the South,

Not trying to turn this thing into a pi$$ing contest but I have a couple comments.

I do appreciate the fact that big dollars are made from the Governors tags. I'm sure your friend is a good guy.

But the question that I always have is if the guy is such a great hunter and conservationist...why doesnt he just donate the 160K and buy a general tag and hunt with everyone else during the scheduled seasons?

I'd have much more respect for someone that did that rather than someone that buys special priveleges to hunt statewide for several months.

Those guys wouldnt "donate" the big $$$ they do if there wasnt a clear advantage (practically a guarantee) for them to kill a trophy class animal...not exactly my definition of a true champion of wildlife conservation.

Like I said, nothing against your buddy or any other Governors tag holder...just that there are other people that do much more with much less and dont ask for special privileges when it comes to hunting.

 

[proutdoors]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-06 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]Buzzh, what exactly is your definition of a true champion of wildlife conservation? You say there other people who do more with less, good for them. We all should do more with less, so what's your point? The guy put $150,000 on the ground for HABITAT and you want to worry about his motives? How do you know what they are? Can you read his heart by his pictures? I have never met this man but, if I ever do I will shake his hand and say good job and THANK YOU for helping wildlife for ALL to enjoy.

 

[littlebighorn]

Buzz, I respectfully disagree, and I think we need to be careful of judging someone's motives for spending big bucks on a tag. My thinking is---if they really wanted to "buy hunting advantage", couldn't they spend a whole lot less and go to Mexico, or buy 10 or 15 landowner tags for the same advantage? I also know that some of those tags go unfilled because they didn't find the buck they wanted.
I for one am glad there are guys out there willing to spend their abundance in my back yard to benefit those animals I might get to hunt in the future. And if they can take a big buck that probably won't live through the winter, in the process, then more power to them. Just my opinion.

 

[Gator]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-06 AT 01:35PM (MST)[p]



"YO! SUP BEOCH me an my "posse" will be bustin it on yo block bout the 15th a NOV. We be doin a drive by on sum smack talkin trash wearin bucks belly deep in da sheet while he's pimpn his bitchs yo.
Now me an my boyz gotta move it on down an bus sum heavy ats makin tracks in the red sand on our corner a SO-UT.


THE ORIGINAL NUNYA KICKIN IT IN CO BABY COME NOV 15"


Whats scary is I understand this.

 

[sonofthesouth]

Buzz, I can see your side of the argument but the fact is that there has got to be some difference in the Govenors tag and a general season tag. That is what sets it apart and allows those prices to be paid. It is no different than the state of NM mule deer foundation raffle tag, it has the same exact hunt dates as the gov. tag and @ $5 a poke. The state donates this to MDF as a way to earn money directly for mule deer habitate. You metioned that if they were so concernd about mule deer why not just give the states the money? That number one is kind of odd-"Hey, you like deer right? why not drop $150,000 on are habitate here in utah and for that we will give you a nice plaque?" It is ONE animal for 6000 times the "normal" rate! If you knew the truth, they do and alot more than we are aware. Most of these guys are normal every day guys that just want to help. Do we have malice towards them that they have worked hard all thier live to be able to afford these things? Are we a little bit envious? Honestly I'am. Its only natural, its one hell of an opportunity. They dont all want pats on the back, they dont want to be on hunting shows, and these tags are far from "guarantees" and when they do kill, alot of times they are great deer but far from giants. Bottom line, are deer herds are in one hell of a way all across the western states and if sombody, ANYBODY, is willing to go the extra mile by actually working on habitate themselves or give money for the same purpose. Well, I cannot thank them enough. Its time that we start thanking them, because so far it has been a thankless situation.
They are part of a minority boys, they actually do more for deer than just hunt them.
Not saying its right or wrong, just sayin it.

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

proutdoors,

My definition of a true champion of wildlife conservation?

I read an article not long ago, about a guy that donated a very large (if not all) of his estate when he died to I believe the MDF. The guy was very unassuming, never bought Governors tags, just hunted mule deer his entire life. The surprising thing to everyone was the actual amount...seems the guy lived pretty simply but had made some good investments and had an estate worth over a million.

The funny thing is, I dont even remember his name, and I bet thats exactly what he wanted. He didnt ask for special hunting privileges to shoot deer in a$$-deep snow in December...just wanted to help conserve something that he had a passion for.

That...right there is my definition of a true champion of wildlife conservation.

Or how about the people that struggle through 4-8 years of expensive college to get degrees in Wildlife biology only to land a job that pays 30K a year. For that 30K a year they listen to and have to cater to landowners, outfitters, county commissioners, State Governments, Game and Fish commissions...while struggling to do what best for wildlife. For all that, the thanks they get is constant whining and complaining from everyone that doesnt shoot a 180 buck every year.

Why they do their job is a complete mystery to me...it cant be for the money, it again has to be for a simple passion for trying to help wildlife.

Those people rarely get any thanks, despite them spending A LIFETIME trying to best manage wildlife...but the guy that donates 150K has his name splattered on every hunting board on the net (along with the big buck he kills) and I'm asked to thank him?

Well, if thanks are in order for the donator of 150K...I sure think bigger thanks are in order for those learning, studying, and committing entire careers to wildlife.

Again, if you would have taken the time to READ what I wrote instead of diving head-long into a pissing contest...you would have seen that I stated I do appreciate the large contributions of Governors tags.

 

[sonofthesouth]

I found him boys, the one guy who thinks that a game department is actually doing what is best for are deer herds. Like all of the coyotes they kill and all anti hunting groups they dont listen to when we want to kill more mountainlions.
Dont kid yourself, There is not one goverment agency that is even half as good at managment as a private individual. And game departments being full of people who lay awake at night and try to figure out ways to improve things? There are a few Im sure but the Idea that they are there to live thier dream, I guess the same could be said about the trash truck driver, he just lives to empty cans of other peoples crap. For most of them it is like alot of other people, Its just a job- not a calling. According to your though process, all of the game biologist should just donate thier wage to the state, I mean if they REALY cared about game management they wouldnt ask for pay they would just do it.

Son of the south

 

[sonofthesouth]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-06 AT 01:09AM (MST)[p]>But the question that I always
>have is if the guy
>is such a great hunter
>and conservationist...why doesnt he just
>donate the 160K and buy
>a general tag and hunt
>with everyone else during the
>scheduled seasons?

But the question that I now have is if the biologist is such a great person and conservationist...why doesnt he just do the 4 years of college take the job and then donate the 30k and shut the hell up! Oh and kill the crap out of dogs and cats


>just that there are
>other people that do much
>more with much less and
>dont ask for special privileges
>when it comes to hunting.

Get these "other people" who do much more with much less down off the cross we need the damn wood. How do you think these saints acomplish thier habitate projects? With auction tag hunters money! they damn sure arent out there for free or donating thier wage...They are DOING THIER JOB. you know, the one they are paid to do!

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-06 AT 11:39AM (MST)[p]Son of the South,

I can tell from your simplistic answers you have much to learn.

You just proved my point.

For starters, your degradition of wildlife biologists and your comparison of PRIVATE herds VS. PUBLIC owned wildlife is laughable.

Also, if you think the best answer to have better quality mule deer and more of them is simply killing lions and coyotes...thats a pretty clear indication that you dont know much about wildlife management. If it were only that easy...

Like I said, there are many more variables for wildlife biologists to worry about than simply managing public wildlife. The owner of private lands that basically own private wildlife have a much easier time for many reasons.

I'll list a couple.

For starters, the wildlife biologists of most Western States (the ones where mule deer are found) are governed by POLITICS. Dont think its true? Then why in nearly every case are the Game and Fish Directors and Commissions appointed by the Governor? As anyone with 1 firing brain cell in their head would understand, anytime a commission or a Director of any Department is a political appointee, there is a clear agenda. Rarely is that agenda one that places proper wildlife management at the top of the list. I've found over the years that in typical public wildlife management the actual health of the herds rarely make the top 5. In no particular order I've found that the concerns of the various Game and Fish Departments favor Outfitters, Landowners, local economies, Game and Fish Department Revenues, and hunters. Followed by all those concerns is doing whats really best for wildlife.

Now, as a wildlife biologist, how do you properly manage wildlife when the focus is clearly on PEOPLE management? If you dont believe that G&F Commissioners and the Department Directors are not dictated to...I have a bridge to sell you. I can list many, many, many cases through my involvement with dealing with biologists, Game and Fish commissions, etc. where other concerns clearly take precidence over correct management in several states including WY, MT, CO, AZ, etc. I've been working both professionally and as a concerned hunter/conservationist in natural resource management for over 20 years. I've seen how the game is played.

The result of that is you get people just like you whining that biologists arent doing their jobs. They're doing to the job that politics and their Directors are telling them to do. They dont have a choice to do whats right...their choices are stay employed and do as your told or find a new job.

You seem to somehow be living in the delusional world that biologists are somehow in control of managing public wildlife...nothing could be further from the truth.

All they're allowed to do is make recommendations...at the end of the day the decisions are almost completely out of their control. And thats sad.

 

[proutdoors]

buzzy my buddy o pal, what are you trying to say? In your one post you are saying the poor wildlife biologists are doing 'more with less' now you are saying that it is all political!? The only one I see doing anything with less is you and your thought process.
It's good to see you are judge and jury over what a 'true conservationist' is. I thought it was people helping wildlife irregardless of how much money they make/dont make. I thought was people doing whatever they can to improve habitat. What the hell was I thinking? I guess only poor folk and people doing exactly want you want are the only 'true conservationists'
Thanks for the education on conservation.

 

[sonofthesouth]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-06 AT 08:42PM (MST) by huntsonora (moderator)[p]>Son of the South,
>
>I can tell from your simplistic
>answers you have much to
>learn.

Simple answers for your simple brain

>Now, as a wildlife biologist, how
>do you properly manage wildlife
>when the focus is clearly
>on PEOPLE management? If you
>dont believe that G&F Commissioners
>and the Department Directors are
>not dictated to...I have a
>bridge to sell you. I
>can list many, many, many
>cases through my involvement with
>dealing with biologists, Game and
>Fish commissions, etc. where other
>concerns clearly take precidence over
>correct management in several states
>including WY, MT, CO, AZ,
>etc.


So now you have proved my point, that private land owners do a better job. Thank you.


>The result of that is you
>get people just like you
>whining that biologists arent doing
>their jobs. They're doing to
>the job that politics and
>their Directors are telling them
>to do. They dont have
>a choice to do whats
>right...their choices are stay employed
>and do as your told
>or find a new job.
>
>
>You seem to somehow be living
>in the delusional world that
>biologists are somehow in control
>of managing public wildlife...nothing could
>be further from the truth.
>
>
>All they're allowed to do is
>make recommendations...at the end of
>the day the decisions are
>almost completely out of their
>control. And thats sad.



Okay, I give, you have supported my argument more than I could have. First you describe these biologist as super stars " doing more with less" and now your saying that they are powerless? Where are you on this? You say that I must be living in a "delusional world" and that "biologists are somehow in control of managing public wildlife." Take your medication before you start typing, I have never claimed that they manage public wildlife, I mean its what they went to 4 years of school and were hired to do....But I never said they did it.

And finally, if I thought that cats and dogs were are only problems I would have saved the $90,000 dollars our ranch spent last year on pinion juniper removal and reseeding of forbes for mule deer. I didnt get a special tag or any other recognition, for that matter and I dont care. It was the right thing to do then and now. Now, thats $12,000 more than the NM Gov. tag went for...I' am I mad about that? HELL NO. I dont give a tinkers damn where the help comes from, ITS HELP and I for one am gratefull... thats my piont to all of this!
Again, as a private land owner that spends a great deal of time and money for are wildlifes benefit-THANK YOU! If is $10 or dollar $10,000, If is fixing water tanks or trapping coyotes, I'll take it.
You know, we do charge a lot of money for are deer tags, $5000- and most years we take just one person, others years, two. I know that we wili be years trying to recover are out of pocket cost,( if we ever do) but thats okay! I do understand the world of management, and how hard it is-just another reason that I appreciate the added help. Even the "damn govenor tags"

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

Son of the South,

I cant help it if you cant see the major differences in hurdles that a wildlife biologist that works for the States have that the same biologist would NOT have if they worked for a private landowner.

Just look at the simple little project you did on YOUR land. See that difference? Its your land, you make the decisions on how YOUR private land is managed with a single focus. What percentage of the States of NM, MT, ID, OR, WY, AZ, etc. are state owned lands? Likely less than 5% of each. A state biologist has little to no control over how that state land is managed. The state lands board are not controlling state owned lands (in most cases) for the benefit of wildlife. They're managing the State land, under State law, to generate revenue for public schools. So, if the State land board wants to graze the land to dirt to maximize profit for schools...thats what happens...wildlife loses. Thats State law and you dont get around it.

I bet you dont need to worry about raising revenue for public schools on your private land?

Of course there are other state and federal regulations to consider...also dont forget about BMP's, public comment periods, state land boards, Game and Fish commission, concerned citizens, etc. that a State biologist has to worry about on nearly any proposed action to improve wildlife habitat on State owned lands.

Of course, when they want to do anything on BLM or NF lands, the process is even worse...NEPA requirements, etc.

Biologists have NO control over how NF and BLM lands are managed...and again wildlife is ONE consideration of many that are required by federal manadate. I suggest you educate yourself on NEPA, MUSYA, TGA, and other Public Land Management Policy. Wildlife is rarely referenced in any of the language in those acts.

So, you whine that they cant do their job...yeah, no kidding they dont OWN land to manage.

So, that pretty much hamstrings biologists to making recommendations on quotas, season structures, etc. Thats a challenge for the above reason I already mentioned (Commissions, outfitters, ad nausem) They have NO authority on habitat enhancement...they can only try to work in conjuction with the agency that controls the Federal Lands. Again, they're at the mercy of the Federal Land Management agencies and the huge amount of Federal regulations and Land Management policy.

No amount of money can change the fact that state owned wildlife in the West largely lives on Federal lands that State Biologists have no control over. That sure doesnt mean that the biologist is not doing his/her job...or that they dont know how to properly manage wildlife...it means their job is many, many, many times more complicated than the same job being done on a private ranch. I contend that if you gave good biologists free reign to solely focus on the health of________(fill in the blank) animal...without politics and they had control of the land as well as the animal...things would be way, way, way different. Much the same as that found on the best managed private lands...maybe even better. Not many landowners own tracts of land as diverse and with more potential than something the size of a National Forest. The potential is staggering.

To put it in perspective for you, lets take your private land example and you're little PJ project. Lets say that you didnt actually own the land...you had to go to an agency (or other landowner) to ask for permission. At the same time, lets say you have hikers, birdwatchers, hunters, cattle ranchers, etc. that were also asking the same landowner or agency to manage for their specific best interest. Then you had to get approval from A seperate game and fish commission...then you had to follow all the state and federal guidelines for your project. Go through all that work and then the agency or landowner tells you "no". Stick a fork in your project...its done.

Management of private lands dont require you to seek permission from your boss, the public, various land management agencies, federal laws, state laws, etc.

You're comparing apples and oranges...and it doesnt mean that bioligists dont understand or know how to manage...it means their job is very, very, very, complex...and that in many cases, they simply are not allowed to manage correctly by things they have ZERO control over.

If you cant figure that out...I guess the easy answer is to just blame biologists for not knowing their jobs. No big deal...most have broad shoulders and just keep on keeping on...doing what they can despite loud-mouthed and uninformed complainers.

Their job is a thankless one, and I for one appreciate what they accomplish. But, I also understand the complexity of the uphill battle they face on a daily basis.


I think there is also confusion on your part over the one comment you seem to like to single out about people doing more with less. There are many people that I've directly worked with that donate countless effort, time, and labor to the conservation of wildlife. They dont have 150K to throw around, but they do a lot of volunteer work. I guess I wasnt talking specifically about a working class biologist doing more with less...I was referring to private individuals doing more with less. Make sense? Kind of like a flea and a dog relationship...the money does no good without people on the ground completing projects.

You need to brush up on your facts.

 

[sonofthesouth]

>Dont kid yourself, There is not
>one goverment agency that is
>even half as good at
>managment as a private individual.
>
>Son of the south

And where did we disagree? I have made it clear that I agree with you and the inability for Goverment agenceys to acomplish much. I have also said that if an idividual has done even the smallest thing for wildlife, that I'm grateful-that includes the Govenors tag holders- This (gov. tag) is something that you consider to be of little value. There is a difference in the little contributions and the big , you have to admit that, but I have the same appreciation for both, unlike yourself.

I'm sure that you are an educated person, just not a very appreciative one, or at least not to some.

Son of the south

 

[proutdoors]

Buzz, so what is your point? What does all this have to do with some rich guy giving six-figures to IMPROVE habitat and HELPING the situation not hurting it?

 

[sonofthesouth]

Buzz,
my reply to your post (# 30)was placed above and out of sequence.(#31) Proutdoors, thanks.

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

proutdoors,

I think a couple points.

One is that the saviors of hunting are not the wealthy. Two is that biologists are continually blamed for situations they have no control of. Three the average sportsman (like you and Son of the South) have no idea how complicated public wildlife management really is.

Money is not the only answer or solution to the problems in most cases. Thats why I wont be putting some guy on a pedestal that dontates 150K to kill a deer. He knows how to sign a check, but I doubt he knows much about wildlife management and how to get it accomplished. Definately appreciated, like I've already said twice...three times now. But, many more people (in particular State employed Wildlife Biologists) deserve thanks they'll never get for working on solutions, dealing with various agencies, commissions, public interests, private landowners, etc. all the while adhering to federal and state guide lines to get the job of managing wildlife done. They do it for no thanks and damn little in pay. Not only do they not get thanked, they get bad-mouthed by idiots that have no comprehension of what it takes to manage public wildlife on public lands.

Thats the point.

If you dont get it...you probably never will.

 

[sonofthesouth]

Yeah your right we are "idiots" that dont know how to manage, thats why we have NEVER killed a deer smaller than 182 sci, several over 200, three over 225, and with the our average deer killed being 191. And our elk? The second biggest bull killed in the state this year was? You guessed it right here on our poorly managed ground, with all but one hunter thus far killing out. If you think that things just happend to work out this way, your dead wrong, and guess what its going to "just happen" to work out that way next year and the year after and so forth.

Do the research Buzz, look at how wildlife biologists have ruined the Baca ranch, now Valles Caldera, It used to be one of the best units in the nation for elk untill the feds got it, and now? Now there is better elk hunting in oklahoma.

Anyway,I do have to appologize to you, I once called you intellegent-I take that back.

Son of the south

 

[Steep]

As a public lands management "insider" I can say Buzz eloquently speaks the truth about the complexities that wildlife biologists and all public land managers have to deal with. Son, there is no way state or Federal land could be managed solely for trophy deer and elk like you are apparently successful in doing. Trophy deer and elk management is very narrowly focused, Shoot this entire website is narrowly focused. Public wildlife managers can barely balance trohy quality with hunting opportunity, let alone all of the other interests/values/politics Buzz mentions.

For the record I have no problem with "Goveror's tags" and raffles as I have seen them used in Idaho and Arizona where I've lived. I'm sure there are good guys as well as jerks that buy them.

 

[BuzzH]

Son of the South,

Thanks for once again proving my point that state biologists have no control over management of federal lands:

You said, "It used to be one of the best units in the nation for elk untill the feds got it."

My point exactly, the states own the wildlife but dont control the habitat...thusly, the state Biologists are taking the blame for something they cant control (federal lands).

As to your track record...BFD...theres ranches all over the West that produce the same type (or better) results. Matter of fact I worked for the largest private landowner in the U.S. (he even owns a quaint little spread in NM) and that owners land is the best managed land I've personally ever seen. Not just because of the quality and amount of the wildlife there, but from a standpoint of over-all land health, diversity, and habitat quality.

Like I've been trying to say for the last 3-4 posts...comparing the complexity of public lands VS. the simplicity of private land management when it comes to wildlife is not comparing the same thing. Neither is a reflection of how good or bad a wildlife biologist is.

If anyone needs to do some research...I'd say you have a heap of it to do.

Oh, and for the record...I never accused you of being smart from the beginning...your posts speak volumes on why.

 

[proutdoors]

My response to you buzz is, I dont doubt how hard it is for wildlife managers in the different states but, that has NOTHING to do with money coming from a Gov. tag and the MONEY being used to IMPROVE,RESTORE,SAVE "HABITAT". The money giving to states thru these tags does alot for wildlife. They dont need to know how to manage wildlife that is the job of the states and conservation groups that over see alot of the habitat projects. You say wildlife managers are overworked and under paid and that very well may be, but with help from conservation groups and monies raised from these and other tags HELPS more than you care to admit.

Are you going to say the only people qualified to help wildlife on public land is 'experts' like yourself, or is someone as ignorant as I able to do any good?

 

[ismith]

Buzz, youve nailed it. Thanks for sticking up for the state biologists.
ismith

 

[sonofthesouth]

Buzzkill,
Ted Turner is the largest land owner in the US having right @ 1.3 million acres and 147,000 of that right here in NM. If what you are saying is true then you are even more stupid then I thought, if its not then you are simply a liar. Either way, I now place no merit on your comments. Ted Turner is not a conservationist, he is a liberal enviromentalist, and one that you so openly admire.
Now here is the funny part;I talked with a good friend of mine today, a Mr.Freed from Farmington utah, he is a very large land owner there and has dealt with you before. He informed me that you work for US forestry and that you are indeed an idiot. I think he used the words "tree technician" and "idiot". Now I fully understand why you are so uptight about the "guys that go to school for 4-8 years just to get jobs that dont pay crap so they can work thier little fingers to the bone, never really get a damn thing done, and never get a thanks, or even many dates for that matter" Thats you! Thats how you can admit that Goverment agencys suck at what they do, but still try and defend them.
So to sum it all up, you have worked for Ted Turner, you have a piontless tax payer funded job, a self-righteous attitude, and you are a "tree Tech" WOW, I'm so sorry for you! Dont wory, this is the last time I will reply to you, partly because you worked for Ted, but lets face it , your life sucks enough without it being pointed out to you!

Oh yeah, 190+ average not a big deal? You are an idiot!

Son of the south

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-06 AT 09:06AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-06 AT 09:03?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-06 AT 08:58?AM (MST)

Son of the South,

First off...Mr. Freed...never heard of the guy and I'm 100% sure I've never dealt with him...not surprising though, since I dont work or live in Utah. If I did deal with him, I doubt he'd have the tone you implied he had during our imaginary "meeting". I deal with many landowners, but show nothing but respect for their private lands and deal with them on a strictly professional basis. They respect that...and we show them the same respect back.

Dont care much for Utah and would be about the last place I'd ever live in the West. I've worked extensively in MT, ID, WY, AZ, both Dakotas, and Colorado.

As to Turner, you dont think his land is properly managed? Now thats funny. Maybe next time you're near one of his ranches you should try opening your eyes.

Why are you bad-mouthing a guy that improves the habitat for all wildlife...hell he even buys Governors tags! He should be YOUR hero. For being a liberal environmentalist...the guy sure does shoot a bunch of stuff. I also wonder how such a liberal environmentalist could stomach the thought of hunting at all?

Heck, evil ol' Ted even allows hunting on his ranches...just like you. Bring the checkbook though, you'll need it...5k wont get guys like you through the front gate.

Of course he also allows people to hunt without paying...2 a year on one ranch (either youth or disabled)for any bull elk...and then theres the people they let on to hunt cows for free...and the surrounding ranch kids hunt deer on one of the ranches I did a lot of work for (managing riparian and wetland lands to improve diversity and riparian health to enhance fisheries). But, he's pure evil I tell you what. How can you bash a guy that does the EXACT thing you do? Oh, maybe a little jealousy over the 1.3 million acres...and the quality of the lands in question? Thats got to be it.

Your ignorance of complicated subjects like public lands wildlife management is showing more and more with each post. Your credibility (as if you ever had much) is now hovering about at ZERO.

Bashing wildlife biologists and public lands managers will definately lead to bettering the situation.

Again, the 190 average you seem so hung up on...its no big deal. My best friend and I have averaged over 185 on our last 3 deer shot with general permits on public lands is WY. You know the sweet thing is...we didnt have to pay 5k to a cranky outfitter to do it either. Thirty dollar tag and 1/2 a tank of gas.

A buck I killed in 2004 184 5/8 gross B&C.

Heres a cute little guy my best friend killed in 2005 in the same general area: 196 3/8 Gross

This year...I brought the average down on this WY squeaker: 173 5/8 gross same general area:

Oh, and one last thing...my life is definately pretty tough. I'll try to remember that while I'm looking at the photos of the 60+ days I spend this year hunting. It really has sucked this year so far...only taken black bear, mule deer, pronghorn, and elk in WY so far. Heading to MT to chase whitetails and elk next week...followed by a trip to Kodiak to hunt blacktails after that. I'll try to keep in mind how miserable it is to be me.

 

[proutdoors]

"Bashing wildlife biologists and public lands managers will definately lead to bettering the situation."

So will bashing "average" hunters and people who DONATE time and money to HELP the poor picked on biologists and public land managers.

AS will your insulting people who dont agree with you. Just because one may disagree with you does not make one an idiot, Insulting those who you disagree with leads to your lack of credibility. If you are so abused and under-paid do something about it besides ##### and moan.

 

[BuzzH]

proutdoors,

For the fourth time now...I appreciate the money that Governors tags bring in. Do I need to state it a fifth time?

For the record, I dont whine about the $$$ I make...I make enough to spend a lot of time hunting, fishing, own a home, live where I want to live, etc. I'm not a state Wildlife biologist that starts out making 22K a year either.

As to the insulting...go back and read the posts...I never insulted "average hunters" (can you quote me where I did? I didnt think so)...I never insulted "Governors tag holders" either. YOU and your pal Son of the South IMPLIED that I did. I posed questions and got snippy answers in reply. Then Son of the South starts making up lies about imaginary meetings with his landowner buddies, etc. etc. etc.

I dont tolerate stupidity like that...never have and never will.

Theres no debating most of the facts I've posted here...mainly that wealthy Governors tag holders are not going to be the saviors of hunting and that the jobs of the State employed Wildlife Biologists is much more difficult and complex than some schmucko that manages a few thousand acres of private land.

I think some hunters realize these things...and many dont. I'm posting my personal experiences from a standpoint of what I've personally been involved with for over 20 years. I'm not doing it for my benefit, I'm not a state biologist. I'm posting it so people understand how difficult solutions are when your dealing with various agencies, etc. Also, how easy it is to simply point fingers and blame a biologist that has his hands tied and assume they arent doing their jobs because they're lazy or not qualified. RARELY has that ever been the case in my experience.

 

[proutdoors]

You did insult 'average' hunters,go back and reread your posts.

If Ted Turner is your version of a 'true conservationist' then please dont EVER put me in that group. Hunters do NOT need 'friends' like Commi Ted and his pal Robert Redford.

I will say you got "snippy" about tag buyers and people who dont wallow around in pity for states employees. Instead of bad-mouthing people however they help conservation just say thanks and do your part WITHOUT asking for a medal or a pat on the back.