Paunsaugunt Rebound

[conch]

Ok! I've spent a thousand dollars for gas, wore out a new pair of boots and had plenty of help from several friends. The Pauns is NOT back. Again, the PAUNS IS NOT BACK! Unless you are referring to the 1970's when it was darned near decimated of mule deer. For the record, there does seem to be limited hope with some half decent deer numbers on the unit. However, if your holding a good number of bonus points, I would seriously consider an alternative unit. I can't recommend one because I don't know or care about any others. And before you say I'm just trying to better my chances at a tag forget it. Ten days before this years Pauns musket hunt started, the Fish and Game called my wife and informed her she was on the alternate list. Someone had turned in their tag and she was next in line for what was, just a few years ago a world class deer hunt. My wife asked me what to do. I had her refuse the tag! Not even a tough decision. Without some serious change, She will hold her points for many years to come.
Oh! I would like to thank SFW, Don Peay, the MC team and whoever else is involved. The JAZZ ARE BACK! LOL!

 

[sremim]

Not sure what the conditions are there, but I was wondering how hard it is for a NR to draw a tag there? Is it impossible or improbable? How many points do you need to get a tag?




It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[Blank]

I have 10 points as a NR. I'd like to think I might draw sometime, but not holding my breath. My friend here at work had the Pauns rifle tag, and did not see a shooter buck in 3 weeks of scouting/hunting. Ate the tag! There may be some on private, or where access is locked up, but he sure couldn't find any.

 

[huntin100]

I was down hunting for a week with my brother. Saw a few bucks in the 170-185 class. No monsters. I did see five 28-32 inch 3x3's. Others had seen several wide 3x3's. This will not be helping future genetics. When the DWR forms a deer committee. Management buck hunts on the paunsugunt, San Juan, Henry mountians, and Book Cliffs should be discussed. There are some hogs on all units. No slam dunks.

 

[roperlt]

I had a rifle tag this year on the Pauns, probably saw between 15 and 20 bucks every day. No shooters. Lots of bucks in the 22" to 26" range, mostly 3x3 or 3x4. I've never hunted that hard on a so called premium unit and not been able to find a shooter. I hope the DWR takes a look at the Pauns and make some sound management decisions for the future.

 

[sremim]

The reason I ask is because my wife's family is the largest property owner in the area (at least thats what my father in law says) and he had been talking about applying for tags there.





It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[balz]

You know I had a rifle tag this year on the Pauns. I have waited ten years for it. I am the last person in my family to draw and all though it may not be what it was in the 80's or even early 90's Its still a hell of a lot better than it was in the late 90's. My family has had tags on that unit in 92, 95, 97, and now I had my tag here in 06. I think that the unit is headed in the right direction. At least they are doing something with it. They dropped the tags in half. If you closed any mountain range in the state for 5 years you would have 200 inchers all over the place look at the Henries that place sucked 15 years ago it wasn't worth the drive over there. Now look at it. I would give an arm to get a crack at those bucks. Point is it will never ever be what it was when NO one was killing deer on the Pauns. but at least you can go down there hunt hard and kill a nice 4 point.
Conch I was just wondering if your wife was an alternate on the list and you refused the tag, and you are so upset with the unit then why did you have her put in for the first place. Sounds pretty hokey to me.
It blows me away to see people complaining about one of the few right things the state has done with a deer herd in a long time.

 

[isayNUNYA]

What is it with the Team Mossback? They kill big stuff and everyone cries. If they are killing'em then you could too. Put in the effort, do the home work, kill one, dry the tears. Them "creaming" the big stuff only proves that there are big bucks and bulls to be had. They are not lucky just hard hunters that never give up. I'm sure your all good at your jobs and put forth the effort to bring a paycheck home for your family, why is it wrong for Doyle and those guys working there butts off to do the same?

 

[conch]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-06 AT 05:17AM (MST)[p]isaNUNYA,
Turning our hunting heritage into a PAYCHECK hits the nail on the head. Ask team Mossback how she looked this year. For reals...
I'm going to need to look up the word hokey before I can explain that one...
I will say building points is a must. I could just buy the point for $5.00, but heck it's alot funner just to put in for thr lottery and see what happens. Also, a nice little donation of the price of the tag back to the Fish and Game if she does draw. One day she might just want to have the tag. No sence in waiting utill then to put in. Oh, and her fifteen points with my five, thats twenty split two ways. That might help explain the hokey.
My point of the post is I guess, if your satisfied with waiting a minimum of ten years to get a premium tag so you can take a small four point, then by all means this is your unit.

 

[Muley73]

I hunted with balz on the Pauns this year and between all my family spent quit a bit of time on the unit this summer and fall. We saw more than just small four points. We saw alot of deer in the 4 to 5 year old range. We saw a few really big bucks 190 class deer. And even a couple that would have pushed a little higher. Is the unit what is was in the early and mid 80's, no way. Has is been closed for five years, no. To balz point if you close any unit for five years you will see big bucks. If fact there are units in Utah that if you closed for five years would probably blow away the Pauns for quality. The Pauns will never be the same unless it is closed to all tags for five years. But at least they have cut tags to help some, and it looks like it has helped some.

HOKEY- effusively or insincerely emotional. ie. I really wanted something, so I ask for it. When I got it is was not what I expected so I turned it down and now I feel bad. I have to agree with balz, that does sound kind of HOKEY.

 

[cabinfever]

There are 1-2 point areas in CO that I'd hunt over the paunsaugunt.

Mike

 

[Muley73]

Me too. But CO is also managing their entire deer herd better than UT.

 

[deerbedead]

I can't help but throw in a comment or two on this one.
The Paunsaugunt "IS BACK!" It is back to where you can hunt your butt off and still not find a buck big enough to really get your blood pumping. I know, I know, you guys have been here in the summer and saw a couple of 190"s in the meadows by Tropic reservoir, and in the fields by Alton, and now the unit is back.
There have been years between 1985 and 2006 that you could go out and see 5 200" bucks any day of the week if you knew where to look. During the rut you could check the hayfields around the unit and turn up some real hog bucks, with a dandy or two in every field. Go out now and check them. Bet you're lucky if you see 1 buck that big now in an all night spotlighting run.
Maybe it is all in your perspective of what a big buck is, and what you are used to seeing. I think Conch has seen about as many true monster big bucks as anyone out there, so when it comes down to it, the big buck selection on the Pauns is pretty slim pickins.
I have seen it from the 70's till now and the two hunts I participated in this year on the unit were the two worst I have ever seen. Granted, I saw a lot of bucks, just not one that would break 180". I have guided hunters on there for years, and have personally hunted it 4 times, two rifle tags, and two archery tags, and this year is the first time I haven't filled a tag with a buck worthy of the wall. I went home without one this time.
If you think it's back, good for you. We don't.
I did see a lot of 2 and 3 year old bucks that should be nice ones in 3 or 4 years if they make it that long.
Travis

 

[Ups]

isaynunya- I do kill big stuff and so does alot of other people we just cant afford to pay 30 people to look everywhere we want for a month before the hunt. So it gets a little frustrating for an average guy. I know of alot of others hunters that killed just as big of stuff as Team Mossback so give us common folk a bone! They are good hunters and i will be the first one to admit that, but there sure is alot of em! NO TEARS HERE (What can brown do for you!)

 

[peakfreak]

ups- Maybe brown can do some math for you. Mossback charges $300 a day for scouting so times that by 30 guys and times that by 30 days and you get $270,000. You really believe a guy pays $10,000 for a tag, $5,000 for a guide and then pays $270,000 for scouting? I'm not buying it. Where's Fed-Ex? (Don't mess with BROWN)

 

[balz]

Conch,
You totally missed my point. If you do not close the unit down for 5 years you are never going to see the bucks like they were right after it opened back up. Its dang near impossibe unless you shrink the number of tags so much that no one can expect to draw except maybe every 20 years. This has to include land owner and governer and all over the other "Special" tags. The total number of deer being taken off of the unit has to go down to almost nothing. I believe that would get the bucks back to what you remember them. Now I really do enjoy hunting big Mule Deer. I do but I am not the only one and I would rather be able hunt for 180 bucks ever 10 years than 220 buck every 20. I am not trying to say the Pauns. is back. I am saying that it will never be back if we want to keep hunting it. Ten years from now every one will be complaining about the Henries the same way.
If you close any unit in the state for 5 years I would bet you would be killing monster bucks off of it for the next 10 as long as there was some sort of limited amount of people hunting it. You guys are right the Pauns IS NOT "BACK", but its at least back to the point were you just don't know you may indeed see that monster that you are after and that is alot better than it was even five years ago. I am glad that they are doing something about it. And possibly with a little positive reenforcment they may start doing it to some of the other units in the state. (Lessening the number of tags that is), but if we are all complaining that its not working at all then they will yank that idea and kill the crap out of them again.
Maybe turning the state into smaller units and then shutting them down a couple at a time for 5 years out of every 20 or so would do it maybe that would solve the problem its worth a shot. Then we can just follow each other around to the units that are opening up each year and we will all be killing monster bucks. I can't wait. I will see you out there!!!

 

[ClorideRUS]

I'm not sure we're getting to the point here! The Pauns "used" to be a "premium unit". The deer herd that migrates from So. Utah to Arizona gets hammered from August to December! What do you expect? Some guy from Kanab (Some of you know who) told me several years ago "This will become the land of the 24"'s. Well, he's right.

It's up to the DWR to manage these units! They have to work with all parties (other states, sportsman groups, land owners, etc) to preserve the quality hunts.

It's not just the Paunsagaunt, it's all of the western US.
Sadly, I don't think it's going to happen. Too much money involved with the guides, DWR, and special interest groups.

I'm (almost) to the point where I want to see hunting so limited that the best you can do is (leagally) pick up monster sheds! At least that way we all have a chance.

Damnit! RUS

 

[mdh]

Balz

The unit will never be closed down. 2 things prohibit this. 1. Most of the unit is on Grand Stair Case Escalante Monument. We close the hunting down we will not get it back. 2. There is a CWMU on this unit. They will never allow it to happen.

I guess someone needs to define "premium" for me? Is it the animal or the amount of money to apply for that hunt?

To me this unit is no more than a limited entry unit. Premium is in the past in my books. You are right balz in the fact if you want monster bucks back on the unit to close it just will not happen. Is there an alternative method to bring back the bucks we all want to see? Unless you have a great winter with lots of water and a good early spring of rain down here I do not see alot changing. One other point is we had over 50+ tags hunting these bucks on the muzzle hunt. This cannot continue to happen especially with the demand to kill these bucks paid out by clients is so high. They do not stand a chance in the rut!!

Mick

 

[ClorideRUS]

I agree with MDH, one other thought! Land owners have tied up a bunch of tags and make a ton of money selling tags.

Who decided! if you own enough property in a premium unit you get to dictate how much it costs to persue the trophys. And don't start with the "they loose money because of the game feeding off their range" deer don't compete with bovines.

If the game & fish would truly manage the Pauns, it would only take a few years to turn it around. Once again (it's all about money) and piss on the unit!

RUS

 

[isayNUNYA]

I know what you kill Tad. Tell us the story on your Co. buck. The real story!
What can BROWN do for you?

 

[isayNUNYA]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-06 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p] Conch, Max on deer points is at 11 right now. How does your wife have 15? I would put her in for the henrys. She is gauranteed a tag.
Guided hunting has been around before organized legal hunting. Its nothing new. However just like everythng else with new technology and demand the stakes are higher.
I know the pauns is not "back" I'm just saying there are still good bucks there. You can't hunt anywhere and expect a 180+ deer to be killed by everyone with a tag. Anyway hope you find that dream buck someday. Later.

 

[Zim]

Where is Don Peay? There was a thread on here a month ago where he mentioned he fixed everything in the Pauns. Cut tags, spread some seeds.....watered, or something. What up? What am I to do with my 10 points? Trade them in for raffle tickets?

 

[balz]

Mdh,
You are right on the money with your post to me. If we are really trying to get things better down there my "Smart A" remarks won't help. I know and agree that they will and would never even consider the suggestions that I was making. I get frustrated with guys like Conch who get on here and make up total bogus stories about there experiances and there points and so on. All of us out there are putting in the time the money that we can. I really doubt anyone who frequents this sight is anything other than avid about hunting. We all want to just be able to kill some monster bucks.
I feel bad for the guys like conch and roperlt who just couldn't seem to find the big deer, because in all the years my family has hunted that place this was by far the best numbers and best number of 4 or 5 year old bucks we have seen along with the occasional monster that was seen during the scouting trips. They are killing 200 inch deer off of the mountain alot more than they did 5 years or even 10 years ago, and that is a step in the right direction. There are some ways to make things better.
I feel as the Pauns. is headed in different direction than it was. I feel like that is a good direction and some people have put in a lot of hard work to get it moving that way. The orginazations and the average hunter who gets up there and pleads the cause in the RAC mettings.
All I would like is to see "some" credit where credit is due. Like I said before if we make them think that things aren't changing down there then they will add more tags and they will kill the crap out of them again. Its never going to be like it was after it was closed for five years its just not. The work is never done but if we keep on with this "Lets just start over" attitude every time something doesn't work perfectly then we have no foundation to build on. Give some credit where credit is due and then move forward with what you have got.
If you think the Pauns. is just another limited entry then I would dare say you have not spent much time on Thousand lakes or the Vernen. If you have a chance to check one of these out I think your opionon might change.

 

[conch]

isaynunya,
My mistake! She has 14. I have 6. Same math. 14+6=20
Where do you get your point stats? I get mine from the UT Fish & Game web site. In reality you could have 15 total. However, from my calculations, everyone with max has drawn. She missed putting in for deer the first year, and drew a limited entry elk.
The Fish & Game has a cool page where you can see all your information and all your stats for the last several years. It shows points, species, when applied for and what you have drawn. Some interesting info there. I saw things I forgot I had even done from years past. Like applying for a bighorn sheep on the Kaparowits. I wonder what the heck I was thinking that year. LOL! And no . . . I wouldn't like to drag her to the Henry's. If I had any other plan, it would be the Alton CWMU. However, I think it too is in serious decline of trophy bucks. No offence to anyone, just a hunch.

 

[cabinfever]

Mdh, If seeing lots of 150-170 class bucks means the paunsaguant is back then i guess it is. Yes credit should be given where it is due and I think it is. There are projects that have occured and projects that are occuring that will no doubt benifit wildlife, but the bottom line is that 190-200+ inch bucks are in very high demand.In higher demand than they have ever been in the history of Mule Deer hunting. The only way to get the paunsaguant back is to close it or limit hunter oppurtunity (cut tags) and I just dont see that happening.

Mike

 

[balz]

Conch
If she had 14 then why was she and alternate and if you had 6 and were putting in with her 10 a piece is still max points for who was putting in. Sorry Guy things just aren't adding up.

 

[huntin100]

I hunted the muzzle season this past year with my brother who had a tag. Just wondering if too many old 3x3's and 3x4's were causing problems with genetics? Has there always been quite a few around? I saw five 28-32 inch 3x3's with does. This can't be good for future genetics. I think management hunts shooting 3 points on these limited entry units would help some. To grow big bucks you need age,genetics, feed and water. When no one is shooting these old 3 points. This is going to cause future problems. We still can't over harvest. It was a fun hunt. I hope it can and will improve.

 

[conch]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-06 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-06 AT 11:50?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-06 AT 11:06?AM (MST)

My bad! I'm on a string of twelve hour night shifts. Have you ever heard of the word "RUMMY"?
Going back to my original post when I used the numbers 5 and fifteen. I was trying to make a point only, and didn't have the exact figures off the top of my head. I go into the F&G site and it shows me with 5 and her with thirteen. So she split her points with me, obviously taking her out of the max pool. she must have been on the alternate list by lady luck alone.
Now if you want to put your thinking cap on, explain this one to me. She refused the tag, I put in with her. Why was I not next in-line for the tag?

 

[Zim]

I don't mulie hunt often but I had the same observations during my Gunnison, Colorado hunt. 90% of the mature bucks were either giant 3x3's or crab clawed, most narrow spreads. These were big mature deer but what do you say? It led me to believe overharvesting of the 4x4's may have caused this, but I am no expert. What do you old timers think?

 

[balz]

So is that why you had her turn it down, Maybe you thought you would be next???? The plot thickens

 

[conch]

No...the plot does not thicken! I knew I was not next on the list before she said no. Tell me why I was not next on the list...if you can.

 

[Muley73]

Conch,
I think that you have a valid question to ask the DWR on why you where not next on the list. Here are a couple of questions for you. Do you believe that pulling the muzzy hunt out of the rut would have a positive effect on the herd? My second question may seem a little far fetched but I will ask anyway. Travis and yourself obviously send tons of time on the unit. I have heard you both say that no matter how much we cut public tags it will not help until the landowner tags are cut as well. You have also questioned if the money spent by SFW is really helping the herd. What if the SWF could take that money and buy landowner tags and let them go unfilled. Do you believe this would benifit the overall herd more that what the dollars are being spent on now. I know that is an out of the box question, but I am serious in asking if this is an option we should push the SFW for?

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

conch-

If you had 13 and 5 last year, that's 9 points each. Pans Muzz had 40 people put in with 9 points for only 4 bonus tags. Your points were split with your wife, but you apps are separate in the draw. 36 people total were left meaning
your wife was just lucky to be on the alternate list, 35 others including you would have been next in line when she denied the tag.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[roperlt]

bonehead,
I was not complaining about the buck I shot or the hunt I had on the Pauns, we had a great time. If I would have been able to spend more time there is a possibilty that I would have found a smoker buck. The unit has the potential to grow huge bucks we all know that, I just didn't see any the days I was down there and the majority of the bucks that I have seen coming from there on both the rifle and the muzzy hunt have been just like the buck I took. Believe me when I say I had a great time hunting the Pauns. Would I do it again? Maybe.

 

[Muley62]

Lions, coyotes and bobcats kill 10x's more deer than hunters do, probably a lot more than that.

 

[fin little]

Muley73, Im almost 100% sure SFW wont buy landowner tags and not sell them or use them. Boy that would go along ways in restoring my faith in these orgs.In fact I know of at least one Pauns landowner permit that was auctioned off by SFW last year. They market the tag and take 10% . Its a trend that will drive the prices even higher. There is talk of making the landowner permits season specific. The landowners would have to agree but that would go along ways in taking some pressure off the mature bucks in november. Balz Accusing Conch of making up bogus stories is really barking up the wrong tree. Ya he was off a bonus point BFD. His wife has 13 one under max. It is possible to have 14. I dont know if anyone does. His wife did get offered a Pauns muzzle tag 2 weeks before the season. He does apply with her but you cant recieve an alternate tag if you already drew a general season tag. I imagine thats why his wife got the call. His wife could have a Heneries deer tag but thier only interested in huntin thier back yard. He's spent alot of time the last 6 weeks or so in the county Tahoe on poaching patrol often times after a 12 hour shift. He really does have an Idea where to look. He's been pounding it for 25 years. I guess its all about perspective but I would agree with his first post. The numbers are rebounding but the older age bucks are dam few. Maybe a few years of at least average rain fall might help. I also believe the intense pressure put on the biggest and the best bucks will never allow the unit to return to what many of us remember. The professional , full time hunters are just to efficiant at thier job. To bad its come to that.

 

[ClorideRUS]

Seems to me, everyone is getting off track here. Conch ask the question: is the Pansaguant on the rebound? I think we all agree the answer to that question is no!

So now the question is what can be done to restore one of the most premium hunts in the World?

The Pansaguant is unique because this is a migratory herd. As I've stated before; "I have a big problem with land owner tags". We all know, the land owners hire big time guides and make a ton of money off these deer.

I believe if this unit and many other units were turned into true draw units we would see amazing results.

What the heck are the other States and Canada doing? I can't believe the HUGE bucks they are taking.

RUS

 

[mdh]

Balz,

Again I go back to the question of what is premium? If we are talking about fuel then it is the top grade no? There are 2 premium units in the state of utah for deer. You would think that they would be equal in quality yes? They are in pricing no?
I sure thought after the 2005 muzzle hunt on the pauns we were competing with the henries. I believe there was over 9 bucks killed over 200 inches on this unit. I was excited for the 2006 hunt because I believed if half of that number was killed this year then we were making progress. It never happened and the type of bucks seen by people were alot of 170 class bucks and most of them were typical 4 points. The trademark brand the pauns has been known for of heavy horned bucks with alot of extra points was not seen.

I agree with you I seen more deer than I have seen in along time on this hunt. The migration was early. The fact that the public most likely seen everything the unit had deer wise in numbers is true. This is encouraging. People DO NOT realize that 40% - 50% of this herd is on private land during the archery and sometimes most of the rifle hunt. They were off the CWMU and my families private land which is in the middle of the CWMU by the first weekend in October this year. What was not seen was what I term premium bucks. What I mean by that is a buck that is worth a public hunters maximum points. I believe that is what it takes to draw this and them some luck! It takes to long to draw this hunt. Even more so there was alot of tags auctioned for alot of money that did not merit a buck for that amount paid. Not sure I care too much about that but I do care deeply about the public and its perception of this unit.

If want to give credit to someone or some group there is only one person that deserves it in my mind and that was Adam Bronson. He was the biologist for the unit and in my mind an exceptional big game management biologist. He knew what had to be done and the tags were cut evenly. Even the Alton CWMU's which was very appreciated. Too bad we lost him to Garth Carter and his services.

I enjoy sometimes reading posts off this web site and truly believe that hunters will have to band together at some point to keep there heritage alive in hunting for generations to come. Alot of people get to know each other with this site and other hunting sites and it will come to play a big role at some point in the years to come.

Believe me when I say the foundation has been laid to help this unit. There is some more tweaking that needs to be done and I believe it is in the system to be changed. I also can say that It will never be back to its so called glory days when a guy could sluff 4th period from school and run up the canyon and see 200 inch bucks. The demand as you mentioned is too high for these animals and they will be harvested if they are there. As long as the public has its fair and equal share at them I cannot complain.

I seen what premium was when they labeled it, and the unit is not that. Therefore in my mind it is a limited unit.

Mick,

 

[mdh]

Mike

I agree with you that the tags will not be cut and we all know it cannot get closed or we will lose the hunting rights. What we can do is build on what has been done in the past few years. We can demand that the landowner tags given to us ranchers be split among the 3 hunts. They CANNOT continue to all be bought and used on the muzzle hunt. This puts too much pressure on a herd we are wanting to rebuild. Especially when the demand to kill the premium buck is so high at this time. There was over 50+ tags hunting the 2006 muzzle hunt. This cannot happen in 2007. The conservation permits were changed and split up into the 3 hunts, why are the 20 landowner tags not. Just my thoughts,,

Mick,

 

[Prism]

The best thing that could happen for ALL of Utah's deer herds is to turn over management to Colorado's DOW!

Please...........

 

[balz]

Well wrote. I see what you are saying and you are right.

I have never been one to look at a 170 inch buck and think its anything but a great buck, the same goes with elk a 330 bull is a nice bull to me. My feelings are that I want to hunt "nice" animals more often than "Monsters" less often, as long as I feel like I have a chance at a monster I felt like that on Pauns. this year and I wish they could do that on all of the limited entry hunts in the state.

 

[balz]

This is a great idea.