Ethical or poaching?

HorseCreek

HorseCreek

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This is a hypothetical? I've been helping my Bro-in-law on his LE archery elk hunt. The other day we got on a great bull...long story short, it didn't work out. It got me thinking, if he hits a bull and while tracking it I come across the bull and am able to make the finishing shot, is this ethical/legal or poaching? This would be if the tag holder isn't in a position to take a shot. I have a general archery elk/deer tag but not a LE tag.
What's your opinions?


Traditional >>>------->
 
That would be poching.

hornkiller.jpg
 
In the laws eyes, it is considered poaching. I would not become a part of that decision. To me, it is similar to party hunting. n However, I do see your point. You wouldn't want to let a wounded animal get away, die and be wasted. On the other hand, if hunters with normal spike tags knew someone who had a LE tag for the same area at the same time, you can see where that could go.....party hunting for big bulls until one was knocked down illegally and tagged with LE tag.

A sportsman needs to always think ethical to stay ethical or we will destroy future opportunity for ourselves and generations to come.
 
There's not much worse than wounding an animal and having it get away, but...it's still ethically poaching if you don't have a tag. If I am the only one who can shoot my animal, I will be more careful with my shot.
However, if you have a tag also, I see no ethical problem with shooting the animal. I think legally, it belongs to the last person that shot it but ethically, it is probably up to the two of you to decide who's animal it is.
 
I see your point but nowadays unless you also hold a tag it would be the same as cooking a couple of eggs in a shallow pan of water for 2 or 3 minutes.
 
Lol, by no means a crappy shot...you saw the shot you put on that buck. It was a thought in my head as I drove home the yesterday. I'm pretty sure what I would do...it may not be legal but I would rather have a dead animal than see it run off and suffer or not be found.



Traditional >>>------->
 
I'm just joken with ya, I've had that same thought before but have never had to make that choice. Will make for some good talk when you come back up on the mountain. Thanks for all your help and support
 
I'd rather come home empty than come home with a bull my "buddy" finished off. Let the hunt play out. If you can get close enough, odds are you can get your buddy to that area and do it ethically, and legally. Look at pope and young club entry guidelines.
 
Is there a Bull hit or not?

For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
I think it is posted in the form of a question, NONYA. Some of your responses kill me, do you read much?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-11 AT 05:43PM (MST)[p]It is a question.If your so "traditional" why would you even ask such a stupid question?Of course its ILLEGAL.If your helping a buddy on a LE tag why are you even packing your traditional poaching weapon?Pretty big of the guy who just admitted he would poach a bull to talk #####...
 
Lots of archery 'wounded' animals go on to live long happy lives so first we have to define 'fatally wounded'. Second, if you've tracked it to that point where you could shoot you could also shut up and hold still or back out and get the tag owner there. It happened on the books this year. Bull hunter found a deer hunters wounded animal. Backed out and got the hunter back in for a killing shot. Everybody's happy, legal, ethical. Lot's of people willing to bend the law and then try and justify it.
 
If hes in a position to finish it off and the hunter isnt its because he put himself in that position,sit back and let the hunter do the follow up,your only going to get in the way once you locate that wounded elk.
 
Some of the units in Utah are LE that allow spike hunters as well. Who admitted they would poach a bull?
 
what state are you in- not that it really matters - IF caught - you can lose mnore than what tis worth - if the guy cant make a kill shot- he shouldn't shoot!! period
 
I guess I should explain more. There is NO bull hit. And I'm talking about Utah. It IS legal for me to pack my "traditional poaching" gear! Read my post before you talk sh!t. So you are saying that if you were tracking a wounded animal that a friend hit MORTALLY you wouldn't finish it off if it was a split second decision? I'm not a poacher...I just said what I honestly think I would do. I've wounded an an elk that I never found 4 years ago. There isn't a week that goes by that I dont think about it. Nonyamt where did I talk sh!t? Good thing your sh!t doesn't stink!


Traditional >>>------->
 
I kinda put my self in this situation last year i was guiding a hunt on the fishlake an my client wounded an elk and w sat down watching the bull in some thick cover waiting for him to expire since we didnt have a clean ethical shot on the bull well my hunter had to pee so he stood up to piss and the bull busted well i tracked the bull for about 3 miles i jumped the bull once and we realized it wasnt that great of a shot so we kinda just waited awhile befor going on well when we moved on the bull had taken a different way out and headed for another drainage so i sent my hunter to the bottem of the draw with my spotter and told them i would push the bull out to them so they went and got into position and i started in on the blood trail well i made it 60/70 yards and there the bull was he was ledged up and the bull couldnt go anywhere well this is where i got into the situation i had my pistol on my hip and a wounded bull at 20 ft and my hunter was at 500 yards almost on the dot so i got on the radio and told my hunter and spotter where i was and where the bull was from me well the ledge prevented them from seeing the bull and he was getting nervious so my hunter said to finish him off and i thought ya that would be easy but i thought who else is watching and would i want somebody shooting my bull and i thought nope so i told him i will get the bull to stand up when he gets up you hammer him and just put your cross hair on the top of hi back so we got in position i tossed a rock hitting th bull in the but almost and he stoo up for a straight on shot for my hunter he was shooting. 30-06 and so i said put the cross hairs about where his eyes are and let it rip well he made the 500 yard shot and dropped the bull dead in his tracks an when i got to th bull i he would have fallen of the ledge h would have went about 50 yards down point of the story is no matter how easy it woul have been for me to make the shot an finish the bull what would my hunter have accomplished when his shot really wasnt a same day fatality shot but maybe in a week the bull would have died or miracaly healed up so to me even if it was legal witch it is not in utah it woul have been un ethical and poaching for me and i i would have done it and been seen and turned in i would have lost everything over some other guys elk
 
Any way you dice it, legal or ethical, poaching is poaching.Shame that a wounded animal would get away to suffer and die. Years ago, a non res. hunter had reported to me he'd wounded a big buck, tried all day to find it to no avail. Next day, he and a friend took a dog and were able to find and finish the deer. I was well aware of what was going on, but did not report to the warden. Another incident, I came upon a 5-pt. bull elk with what appeared to be a debilitating wound (well after muzzy season) I had heard the wardens were looking for this bull to finish off. The day I encountered the bull, the two wardens assigned to the area were hours and miles away. A day after I finished off the bull, they showed up with metal detectors...but I was sure in a fix...only bullet they found was my .40 cal...even with open, bleeding wound.Only conclusion was his initial wound had been a through and through. Wardens removed the carcass and didn't say anything further. Ethically correct but illegal, right?
 
In my minds simple eye, it goes like this: I didn't draw the LE tag, (although I bought an OTC archery tag, I'm legal to hunt the area for a spike or cow) I'm not legally permitted to shoot at a branched antlered bull. Healthy or otherwise. It wouldn't be legal to shoot it.

Do as you will, but an injuring shot is not a harvesting shot- and if I, as a none LE tag holder makes a harvesting shot(any shot) on a branch antlered bull- in my eye.... It'd technically be a Poaching.

If I WERE in that spot, I'd mark the spot I was in, and get the hunter there, ASAP, without spooking said critter.



48696fc97cd60c01.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-11 AT 07:11AM (MST)[p]>I guess I should explain more.
>There is NO bull hit.
>And I'm talking about Utah.
>It IS legal for me
>to pack my "traditional poaching"
>gear! Read my post before
>you talk sh!t. So you
>are saying that if you
>were tracking a wounded animal
>that a friend hit MORTALLY
>you wouldn't finish it off
>if it was a split
>second decision? I'm not a
>poacher...I just said what I
>honestly think I would do.
>I've wounded an an elk
>that I never found 4
>years ago. There isn't a
>week that goes by that
>I dont think about it.
>Nonyamt where did I talk
>sh!t? Good thing your sh!t
>doesn't stink!
>
>
>Traditional >>>------->


I was driving down to Scofield to witness a plugging job for the state years ago and came across a man sitting on the road at daylight. There was a branched antler bull elk laying sixty yards off the road that he wanted to shoot and pt out of hit's misery. He had a spike only tag on a trophy unit, and also thought to tag it. So he ask me if it was OK to shoot it?

I told him no, do not shoot that elk unless DWR gives you authorization, and telephoned the fish and game on the next high spot. Later that day I ran into the same guy up hunting as I left work and spoke to him. He told me that game warden arrived and after he explained he started to shoot that elk and put it out of its misery the conservation officer said, "you better be glad that you didn't!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-11 AT 01:07PM (MST)[p]Well it is both legally unethical and poaching. It might be morally ethical but the law doesn't take that point of view into consideration.

It is just like the time a buddy of mine saw this great big "coyote" - about 120 lbs - eating a bull elk just inside of Yellowstone. The elk wasn't completely dead yet but the big coyote appeard to be choking on a piece of the elk's flank and was suffering greatly. Well my buddy did the only morally ethical thing. He put that big "coyote" out of its misery then hauled the carcass about 35 miles away past where the public normally goes and dug a big deep grave for that big "coyote" and buried him in a traditional ceremony. He did this so the public wouldn't have to view its tragic death from choking and so they wouldn't have to grieve over seeing his dead body. Poor "coyote" couldn't be saved, but the public was spared a rather nasty spectacle.

He went back after to check on the elk, apparently the big "coyote" had hurt it quite badly, and he could tell it was suffering too and that from its tracks it was well over a 400 bull. So he tracked it for quite a while and discovered it met in with a herd. Undaunted to put this bull out of its apparent misery he continued his quest. Finally saw it three days later, not even a mile and a half from Old Faithful. Well, being ethical, he made an excellent 1000 yard full run shot with his custom made semi-auto AR-15 chambered in a .22-250 with a muzzle suppresor and brought him down with only 15 shots, ending his misery. And, again to save the public from a gruesome spectacle he hauled the carcass (well - at least the head, antlers, and the hide from just behind the front shoulders anyway) off the Park through a winding, twisting, trail, where he finally was able to load it in his vehicle right before a massive snow storm hit. Unfortunately, the storm covered the trail he used so he could not take the authorities back to the location to verify his mercy kill. Rather than bother them, because they have much better things to do, he took it home, and stored it in his freezer until the next year when he was able to borrow a friend's LE tag from another state (the friend arrowed several bulls but was unable to connect with the exact one he wanted so he ended up not filling the tag) and tagged the bull to keep people from suspecting he had poached it when he was only doing the most ethical thing he could think of at the time. He took it to a taxidermist too and is now waiting for it to be finished so he can enter it in the B&C books.

Sometimes you just gotta do the "right" thing.

HOOK 'EM!
 
You would definately get nailed for poaching.
Your not even legal carrying a weapon in the field of an LE unit without the proper permit.
 
HorseCreek said:

" I guess I should explain more. There is NO bull hit. And I'm talking about Utah. It IS legal for me to pack my "traditional poaching" gear! Read my post before you talk sh!t. So you are saying that if you were tracking a wounded animal that a friend hit MORTALLY you wouldn't finish it off if it was a split second decision? I'm not a poacher...I just said what I honestly think I would do. I've wounded an an elk that I never found 4 years ago. There isn't a week that goes by that I dont think about it. Nonyamt where did I talk sh!t? Good thing your sh!t doesn't stink!

Traditional >>>-------> "

Question for HorseCreek: Do YOU have a valid tag to kill the animal, or not? If so, then YES, kill the animal. If not, then NO, don't kill the animal. Pretty SIMPLE, IMO! ;-)

S.

:)

PS: Chill out man, it's only the internet..... ;-)
 
It seems like you would have good/honest intent with the situation in question. But if it were ok, too many people would be using it as an excuse as stated in the very sincere coyote & elk in yellow stone story.
 
you shouldnt be tracking a buddys wounded bull without your buddy if he is the only le tag holder.
 
>It seems like you would have
>good/honest intent with the situation
>in question. But if
>it were ok, too many
>people would be using it
>as an excuse as stated
>in the very sincere coyote
>& elk in yellow stone
>story.

Thanks! It is a sincere story!

HOOK 'EM!
 
First things first, you are talking about a mortally wouneded animal. if this is the case why would YOU want to shoot it again? Why not let it bleed out and recover it after the fact. Or like others have said bring the hunter in. Seems like a ridiculous hypothetical question to me. if its mortally wounded then mind your business and let it die or tell the hunter where it is so he can finish it off. Not to mention its illegal so why even push it? When do you see a circumstance where this is ok?

Final summation:

Would not shoot. no matter what the circumstances are.
 
The hypothetical story might get a more interesting resoponce if you both had a valid tag. In your story I would say not to shoot without a valid tag.

Several years ago I saw a buck sneaking into the canyon I was hunting. It got to a place where it would have been a easy drag to a road so I put it down. When I got to it I found that it had been gut shot. My shot was in the front shoulder, so I asumed somebody else had shot the buck earlier in the morning. I knew the buck was moving slow, but didn't know why, he wasn't limping or hunched over. I thought he was being sneaky. I waited a bit to do anything with the buck and sure enough 2 guys came looking for him.... Now what? Was the gut shot "fatal"? Lets say I did know, should I have shot?


I gave them the buck since they came in with an attitude claming their buck. It also ment I got to keep hunting, and didn't have to clean a gut shot buck.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-11 AT 08:57AM (MST)[p]208JBB your story sounds very similar to an encounter I had when I was 17. I was standing on a canyon watching the sun rise, heard shots and some yelling and saw a barely legal 3 pt. (this was a 3 pt. or better area)run down in the canyon from the other side with its guts hanging out and a hunter running hell bent for leather following right behind. Now, I had a legal tag for the area and I could see the buck was legal and it was coming right to me. I yelled to the hunter and asked if he wanted me to finish him off - "Yes - please!" was the response. So I got a good 75 yard broadside shot and hit the buck behind the shoulder, right in the vitals, took out both lungs and several arteries. The buck was half - trotting when I took the shot and had been running so he continued do so for about another 350 yards through a side wash. Well the guy came up the canyon and met me about where I had hit the buck. He said - "Thanks for helping me get my buck - I really appreciate it" - "No problem" I said, "glad to help you out with your buck." It was clear in my mind and in his that the buck was his.

I had a good blood trail so I told him that I would follow the blood while he went down the bottom of the wash as I was likely to push the buck down to him so he could finish it off. So we split up, I followed the blood and he went down the bottom. About that time I heard someone yelling from the other side of the canyon (where he had came from) "Russell!" - must have been his name. So sure enough I tracked the buck right to where I told him he would go but when I get there, there was no Russell. I didn't know where he had went to tell you the truth but kept expecting him to come back any second. Looking back, what I think happened was he saw the buck, was concerned about its legality (it was 2 pt. with a little 1 1/2 inch devil tine coming out of the fork which I could see shining in the sun as he came across the canyon - so just barely barely legal)and decided to get the hell out of there and let me deal with it. In my naivety however, I didn't realize that at the time. As far as I was concerned, I was still helping him out. We had agreed it was "his" buck.

So I yelled "Here he is - come and get your buck" and waited for him to show up. While waiting for him, I cleaned the buck out - the gut shot wasn't all that messy - I was able to put a stick in the hole so it didn't get worse and cut the skin around it and it actually cleaned out pretty nicely - though it certainly would have been fatal. I then decided that "Russell" had just went back across the canyon to get the rest of his party to help him pack the buck out. So I left the buck in a tree and by then my dad had made it over to me. I told him the story and he told me to leave it there and that we would find "Russell" so he could tag his buck. We looked and looked, and didn't find him but we did find a game warden, told him the story and where the buck was hanging. He told me that I could have tagged it if I wanted to but that he would make sure "Russell" did. I think he was sympathetic because "Russell" had taken advantage of a 17 year old hunter like that. He surely could have made me tag it, and by all rights, ethically and legally I should have, but he let me off the hook.

He never found "Russell" either and if "Russell" is out there reading this and recognizes this story, shoot me a PM - I can still direct you to the tree where "your" buck is still hanging.



HOOK 'EM!
 

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