Are we screwing ourselves?

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old_man_of_the_hills

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I just wanted to put this question up and see what everybody thought. Since the boom in trophy hunting has trickled down to even the most "unsophisticated" hunters, is there a possibility that in say, 50 years (just to throw out a number), that there will be almost no good bucks around to pass on their genes? I mean, if we shoot all of the nice 4x4s, the 3x4s, 3x3s, etc will be doing more and more breeding, and their inferior genes will start to be much more common. It just seems that too many people would rather shoot a small 4x4 than a medium-sized 3x3, etc.
 
I hunt on a friends ranch in Montana were guys come and pay a lot of money to hunt deer. A couple of them will shoot a big 4X4 but Most of them would rather shoot a smaller 4X4 buck then a 3X3 or 3X4 . I get to hunt ( when I draw a tag) the ranch for free after they leave and shoot what he calls a management buck. These bucks are 3X3s and 3X4s or and crab claw 4X4s. I would say 60% -70% of these bucks are bigger then most of the 4X4s that the other guys shoot. There are a lot more of them to.

I would like a big 4X4 but I am not going to pass up a big 3X4 or 3X3 to shoot a small 4X4.

Can a 3X4 bucks offspring become a 4X4?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-06 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]No way. For every great buck you see you can bet you probably missed the other 50. Per capita we shoot very few true MonsterMuleys!!!
 
I thought Fish and Game manages the hunting so we'll never have to worry about stuff like that, right? :)
 
It can and does happen if they don't keep the ratio's good and make sure there is a good mix in the ages. Look at areas with more tags and more pressure hence fewer trophy bucks. There are only so many in the herd in any unit at a mature age and if you shoot all of them then you have to reduce pressure or cool the unit a bit. The genetics are usually there but when over harvested trophy quality can surely decline. A deer herd is no different than and elk herd in that regard. Quality management results in quality hunting. Drought and forage and weather can impact trophy quality as well.
 
I wonder the same thing, the amount of quality seems to have dropped, is there a connection between shooting only trophy animals and poorer genetics? I do know I would rather see a deer reach maturity than what I see in the back of most trucks here in MT, I see all kinds of 2 year old deer and they all say the same thing, it was all I saw, well duh! If thats as old as you allow them to be than that is all there will be. I agree with you thought that hunting pressure is the biggest reason for not finding mature bucks... We used to have access to a ranch in an area near a larger city and hunted hard, the largest deer were 20 inches a few four points... but that is it. My other question is this : On the news they just had a story about how we are promoting hunting and how to "help the sport from dying sportsmen have began to appeal to women and children" It just doesn't seem like hunting is dying to me, with the numbers of hunters there are..???
 
I really think some thing needs to be done also. There needs to be managment hunts for huge forks, threes, and 3x4. I saw it first hand in WY this year on a hard draw area. I saw tons of guys shooting dink 4 points just so they could say they shot a 4 point. They would let 5 year old 24 inch 3 points walk to shoot 18 to 22 inch 2 to 3 year old deer that had a 4 point frame. It was sad to see this happen. I think that these states need to really look at some Jr hunts to help with this growing problem.
 
Old man of the hills, I share your concern.

But, I worry a lot more about how we as society are hurting the deer with development into traditional deer range leading to more deer v. car fatalities - and I mean the deer- as well as more urban bucks. The stress of people, cars, etc. has to affect breeding and the overall health of our herds. Our seemingly endless pursuit to creat roads anywhere we can squeeze a ride is also affecting the deer and makes some of the places the big bucks used to hide more accessible to everyone.

I know the old boys that have now departed whom I grew up hunting with shot there share of big boys, but they also shot a heck of a lot of small bucks. That was back when the 220,000 in the Utah hills would have a success ration of almost 40% each year. A lot less bucks get killed hunting now. I think the old boys always thought genetics was random. I mean how else could George I have produced George II.
 
I can't help but post a comment regarding the Barnes X bullets. You were lucky to hit bone so you got some expansion on your bullet. If you were double lung you buck or anywhere in soft bone, you would have ended up with a pin hole going in and a pin hole coming out. The blood trail would have been zero and you could have lost a great animal over trying to save a potential problem with a condor. To me my trophy mule deer Kaibab hunt, which I have waited for over 10 years for, comes first before a potential undocumented problem that may arise with a condor. The Barnes X bullets are very accurate, but the expansion is a problem for hunting big game. The Barnes X bullets should be left for the range and not for big game hunting.
 
ARE WE SCREWING OURSELVES???

WOW!!!

WE'VE BEEN SCREWING OURSELVES FOR YEARS!!!

SOMEBODY FINALLY NOTICED!!!

THERES ALOT OF PROBLEMS WITH DEER HERDS & ITS BEEN GOING ON FOR 35 YEARS!!!

I DON'T SEE ANYTHING BEING DONE SERIOUS ENOUGH TO CHANGE ANYTHING SOON!!!

YA YOU CAN STILL GET A PISSCUTTER!!!

BUT NOT theridges OR TUFF BUFFS KIND OF PISSCUTTER!!!

EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY WANTS OPPORTUNITY!!!

WELL YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH WORLDS EVERY YEAR!!!

THERES TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING SOME SCREWINS DON'T FEEL SO GOOD,ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE SELF INFLICTED!!! :D :D :D
 
RE: ARE WE SCREWING OURSELVES???

We will never lose "trophy" genes simply because females (does) carry all the genetics for antlers that bucks do. A monster buck gets 50% of his antler genes from momma and 50% from papa. Its just that mommas doesnt show her antler genes because she wont grow antlers unless shes under the influence of serum testosterone.

bobcat, dont even try to understand it....just except it.
 
Really good question. I'm not a scientist but I'm farily sure genetics have nothing to do with the size of the animals being taken.

The genes have been there forever and will be long after this thread.

Most importantly the critters need to reach maturity. A four year animal is not going to be as big as a 6 year old animal.

Now as far as management, we probably need to look at harvesting 3 points, five points etc. to clean up the gene pool. But that's dependant on each hurd or unit.

Most importantly, we need to let these critters reach maturity.

Not sure how we are going to make that happen.

RUS
 
RE: ARE WE SCREWING OURSELVES???

O.K.!!!

I'LL EXCEPT IT!!!

AND I THOUGHT MY GRAMMAR WAS BAD!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!
 
It seems to me that the only place you really see a problem with the 3x3, 3x4, ugly bucks is on the limited entry units. It takes too many years to draw a tag to shoot an ugly buck.
Those bucks wouldn't last one season out on a general hunt.

Bucks and does carry genes to pass along to their offspring, and the dominant gene, whether from the buck, or from the doe will determine what the antlers look like on the offspring. Therefore it is still possible to get good genes even with an ugly buck doing the breeding as long as the doe has good genes, and hers happen to be the dominant antler genes. That's why we shouldn't shoot does. You may just kill a doe that is throwing boone and crockett antler genes, and you'd never know it.

Another theory I hear that just kills me is that you can't get big bucks if all the young bucks are doing the breeding.
A buck passes the same genes to his offspring every year, whether he is 2 years old, or 8 years old. He may be a two point that is 2 years old, but he may also have the genetics to be a 240" buck as a 7 or 8 year old. So, just because a two year old deer is doing the breeding, doesn't necesarily mean the genetics are bad. The management is poor because all the older bucks have been eliminated.
Leave a herd unhunted for 5 or 6 years and you will be amazed at what kind of bucks you will see.
Some areas have better genetics than others, there is no doubt about that, but most have a good mix that will produce some awesome bucks if given the chance to reach their maximum potential.
It's too bad we can't exercise some self control and let the smaller, younger animals grow up so we can enjoy hunting mature bucks. If we left them alone for even two years they would be bigger, smarter, and more of a challenge to hunt, not to mention a much more beautiful trophy. (and for you meat hunters, there would be more meat too, just not as tender!)
 
Sounds like we're all on the same page, you guy's just state it better than I can.

Let them mature, then be amazed at the quality you see!

RUS
 
You mean genotypical expression is different than phenotypical?? Causation and Correlation are two different things???? LOL Glad to see ya back on cutthroat!!
 
My friends and I have shot hundreds of game animals with Barnes X Triple Shock Bullets. Yes, they are accurate and believe me, they are the very best controlled expansion bullets you can buy. I don't need to hit bone to get the expansion necessary for the one shot kills experienced. Are you talking about barnes solids? I can't imagine you are having the experience you detailed with Triple Shocks! Even on small, thin skinned game like antelope I am getting perfect expansion on heart shots. Bullet weight retention has beed averaging better than 97%. What caliber rifle are you having the problem with? There has got to be an answer to your dilema!

TM
 
RE: ARE WE SCREWING OURSELVES???

>We will never lose "trophy" genes
>simply because females (does) carry
>all the genetics for antlers
>that bucks do. A monster
>buck gets 50% of his
>antler genes from momma and
>50% from papa.
>

Those mama deer have daddy deer too. If each generation of daddy deer are dinks pretty soon the daughters will be passing on dink genes too. Just to clarify.

Another aspect of the genetics puzzle is that a buck can have a much greater impact on a population than a doe. A great buck (or a dink) can sire dozens of fawns in a year. A doe will only bare one or two per year. I guess a great doe, that bares great son, technically has a big impact, but only if he's alive.
 
You're not as dumb as you look tworivers. By the way did you ever get that third testicle removed?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-06 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]The first thing I thought when I saw this guy a couple of years ago was that I am going to find a smaller 4x4 to shoot.


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So I have a question about genetics maybe you can answer. As I understand it, the male and female contribute an equal amount of chromosomes, which hold the genetics. If a buck with bad genetics breeds a doe with good genetics, then the offspring has half of each. If that offspring happens to be a doe, and she is bred again by a buck with bad genetics, then only 25% of the good genetics will be left in the offspring. So even if some does are carrying good genetics, if they are being bred by bucks with bad genetics repeatedly, then isn't the genetic quality on the decline? It seems so to me, so please point out any flaws in my reasoning. I started this thread because of all of the hunters who drew LE units this fall and were complaining about all of the 3x3s, and I am wondering if we are destroying these units by making them LE. A better solution might be to instead of give out 100 any buck tags, give out 50 tags for 4pt and better and 50 tags for 3pt or lesser?
 
No..you only see app. 65% of true 4x4's...35% regardless of area, region, etc. survive..period.
 
Alright, I will chime in. Tell me then why the Gunnison units had BIG deer that last few years except this year (if that is right from what I heard) when prior to 99 and the limited tags there were nothing bigger than forked horns running around and low numbers of buck deer. How about other units that were general areas and are now limited quota, where did those genes come from. I agree that hunters would rather shoot a smaller 4X4 than a freaky big fork or 4X3. I think some of you are giving the "trophy hunters" too much credit. I think that most of the really big boys die of old age rather than get killed by hunters. If that isn't so where do all of the whopper sheds come from that I see on this website. They didn't fall out of the sky. Some areas have genes that lead to certain antler configurations. I know a place where it doesn't matter if the deer is 50 years old he is going to have crab claw fronts, be tall and 24 inches wide max. I believe that some deer herds aren't meant to grow the 190 inch deer, they are WHOPPERS if you see on in person. Look at the record books, some areas historically don't produce the big ones no matter what seasons look like. I think what is controlling most of the horn issues in Wyoming is the drought. If that changes you will see bigger horns, how big well that is predertimined by genetics.

Rich
 

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