Triple Shock failures on elk?

slamdunk

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Just got done guiding 3 seperate elk hunts, two hunters were shooting Triple Shocks out of 300 mags. Our first bull took 4 bullets at 280yds, one of the slugs recovered looked as if it could have been reloaded and shot again, the others mushroomed perfectly. I've guided a lot of elk hunters using this bullet and have been very impressed....until now.
My other hunter was shooting a 300 Jarrett with 200gr Partitions.....one shot kill at 300yds.
Anyone else seeing BTS's fail?
 
Don't tell Bess, he's already gone through mental breakdowns deciding on bullets...lol


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LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-11 AT 07:33PM (MST)[p]huked on akue bons werked fer mee

"if you want some get some...if your bad enough come take some"
 
I shoot triple shock out of a 300 win mag and I've had great success. I know of a buddy that has had one not mushroom on him. I've also seen a partition that has failed, but I think it is a great bullet. I don't think any bullet will be made without some failures. To many variables on what and how it hits.
 
No failures here but lots of quick clean kills with a 168gr TSX out of a .308. Last elk was good 6 point taken with a single shot from 400 yards. Elk dropped after running 30 yards. I believe there is a velocity range requirement on TSXs for proper expansion. How fast were the failed TSXs going on impact?
 
We knocked a bull down 3 years ago with a TS out of a .300 WM. It dropped like a rock and as we approached it, it got back up and ran off before the hunter could get another round off on it. We spotted him in a clearin the next day with a blood spot right on his front left shoulder. He wasn't even walking with a limp. Couldn't get to him and thats the last we saw that bull. Not impressed at all. Hopefully just a bad lot, for all you TS users.:D

300 Jarrett huh. What are your hunters shooting such cheap guns for there slammy?:D


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I have been using the Nosler Accubond out of my 300 short mag and my dads 300 win mag for the past three years. We have taken 4 elk with this bullet. 3 of which were one shot kills.

The 4th, which was actually the second one taken with this bullet, was a completely different story. The three one shot kills were anywhere from 100 to just short of 600 yards. The 4th elk, a nice pisscutter 5X5, was at 30 yards standing broad side. It was my dads first bull ever. So when the first shot rang out and the bull didn't eve flinch I attributed it to nerves. The Second shot made the bull hump up but he started walking off. We were in a place where we didn't want the bull walking off because the terrain got very bad very quickly, so I had already told my day to shoot until the bull fell down. After dad's second shot, I started pitching in. It must have sounded like world war three for a minute. Long story short, the bull ended up with 6 holes in him. Three of which were right thru the shoulder plate, with a .30 cal hole in one side and a .30 cal hole out the other side. Same thing thru the ribs, one in/out just one the eyes and finally one thru the back bone to put him down! This whole time the bull was picking up speed trying to get out of dodge.

While I'm confidant all the shots thru the shoulder were fatal I was not impressed that he didn't just fall over. I believe the bull was so close, the bullets were zipping right thru the animal without a chance to perform? There was no expansion before the bullets exited the animal?

The bullet shoots extremely accurately, sub inch groups at 200 yards, so I want to give it a chance. Ant I have not been disappointed with how it performs at longer ranges. I hope to get another bull in my lap in a couple of weeks so I can try it again close up.
 
VT i have had superb results with accubond's,stick with'm and you'll love'em.

i shot the h3ll outta the old "x" bullet,only complaint they would pencil in and out unless you hit bone and made them mushroom,anyone else notice this?

"if you want some get some...if your bad enough come take some"
 
Not a failure here either,my grandfather, *GOD BLESS HIM* bought me my first gun and my first box of shells, that i shot my first deer with on the beaver.(puffer lake ut area)in 1967
.32 special
180 grn remington Core-lokt.
I shoot Core-lokts in every gun i have, i have never had a misfire or a stray.
In 1974 i got a mdl 788 remington in .308 my father paid $99.00 for it,i still have it and it is a tack driver 400yds in a 4 inch plate with Core-Lokts,its now responsible for 25 or so deer and several elk,all one shot kills.
Remington Core-Lokt you cannot go wrong,there cheap and you can buy them at any spoting goods anywhere.Happy Trails
 
One of my hunters just took (Wednesday) a 7 X 6 bull in Unit 10 here in Arizona with a 300 Win. Mag shooting 180 grain Triple Shock.

Guide called in the bull to 45 yards. Shot went into the left front shoulder and we found it under the hide about mid body on the right side. One petal broke off, otherwise bullet was in a perfect mushroom.

Bull stumbled at the shot, ran 100 yards and was dead.

No blood at all where he shot 'em, which was kinda scary. Course dead is dead, and there was no tracking job.

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
 
200 grain accubonds for me. Never shot anything twice with them and never recovered a bullet. All pass throughs with huge exit wounds.

I only have 1 experience with core locks. My friend shot his bull with 180 grain core locks out of his .300 WM 5 times at 250 yards, all in the shoulder except one a little far back. We walked up to the "dead" bull and he stood up. The sixth shot did the trick. The ones that passed through were pin holes going in and same size going out. The ones that were recovered were tiny fragments of copper. There won't be another experience after that.
 
*******THIS IS AN OPINION********

55 years ago, during my "official" hunter safety course, they had a diagram of a deer with a sort of ovalish circle drawn on it's side, to indicate where it's vitals were located.

That was where you were supposed to shoot it for a quick, clean and meat saving kill. Even today, animal targets, both paper and 3d styrofoam, have a similar shot location.

All my life, that is the shot I have practiced for, waited for and ultimately taken.....period.

I have been a Disabled Vet since 1970 and chasing wounded chit, any distance, is not an option.

I have killed a bunch of deer, elk, pronghorn, pigs, 1 moose and 1 caribou.....and an Angus bull. With the exception of a deer and an elk, which I shot in the forhead, inside of 100 yards, I have passed on any other shot that wasn't broadside.

I have never recovered a bullet to see how it "performed"....except for a .243 in a pig, which did not pass thru.

A double lung and heart shot will NEVER fail to kill anything quickly......and most any modern bullet will always exit, never to be seen again.

I cannot believe some of the shot up, ruined and disgusting animals that show up at the local meat processor. Not to mention, the rotting animals we find in the field, from ALL forms of hunting.

I hear some Nimrod, every year, say; "I like this rifle, if I hit something anywhere, it's going down." Really?

The point to all of this, "It ain't the bullet that performed badly".

These bullet manufacturers all have YEARS of experience and millions of dollars invested in R&D, quality control and marketing.

No question, under, not so perfect conditions, some of them "perform" better than others. The trick is, not to exceed their designed limits and expect them to overcome bad shot placement.

The "percieved fault" lies elsewhere.

Fire away, I can take it.

*******IT WAS JUST AN OPINION******

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
++2 nickman if you can 't take out something vital or cut a major vein. Then the animal won't die !! No magic bullets and elk are tough kritters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-11 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]I love to see some pics of the failed bullets.
 
ya its a given that the animal is dead if shot perfectly. But what about the not so perfect shots? How much damage will a bullet do that just pencils through compared to one that expands and sends fragment all over hitting more tissue and causes more damage? 100% retention no thank you!
 
The triple shocks have worked on dozens of animals for my little family. shoot=dead. End of story.

Maybe the hunters were shooting with incorrect barrel twists which will cause the bullet to fail to strike on the nose of the bullet ??????.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-11 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]They were doing something wrong,TSXs dont fail without help.I have killed a half doz elk and more deer than I can remember with the new TSXs and never had anything but spectacular performance.I have had several BAD experiences with the nosler accubonds(the reason I switched to Barnes after being a lifelong Nosler fan),accurate but worthless in high velocity calibers.The old partitions are still a great bullet.\
IMO
 
onedryboot, Well I guess I would rather do my part and put one small hole threw both lungs and the top of the heart . Then hit the shoulder not penatrating and send fragments on the surface. I would assume your are talking about Burgers ?
 
I do shoot berger but I wasnt talking just about berger. Ya all is great when shot threw the heart or lungs. I'm not a fan of barnes after being apart of many hunts/shots/kills/ wounded game with them. after guiding over 100 elk hunters, we've had more problems and the animal has gone farther when shot with barnes. yes I'm a fan of berger and thats because I see the difference in the animals shot. But keep on keepin on. If they work for you great!
 
I shot a coyote with my 300 wm last deer hunt. He went down, got back up and hauled ass.... Ok blood spray, little puddle where he fell in the snow.

Hit a buck in the white just under his jaw looking at me. He died, but so would anything else shot there... No chest shots with them but switched to the 180 grn accubond because barnes bullets are rediculous expensive...

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
My elk this year, 1st shot was a little back and a little high, but below the spine, basically nothing vital was hit, 2nd shot punched both lungs and he dropped on the spot. both shots had small entry and large exit wounds. My first shot should have been where my second shot hit, maybe a little bull fever.

It did the job on a very big bodied elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-11 AT 05:54PM (MST)[p]There was a post on here a month or so ago from guy ago that used barnes on a africa safari, he had pics of multiple bullet failures from 4 or 5 different calibers, a lot of the bullets looked like what slamdunk explained, no mushroom at all.
 
My son and I are believers in this ammo. Every shot that we have made true has been one shot kills. My son just killed a nice 5x6 bull at just short of 400 yds. He double lunged him and it was all over. I did notice the exit hole was just slightly larger than the entrance.
Until something goes wrong I will continue to use them. Shot placement is always important but we have had very good success with them.
 
My nephew is working up there---same place---and he told me he had the same gig with hunters that swear by their reload bullets...

But----

He has had the same hit and gone results....

Maybe to Hot a load?

Robb
 
I had a friend shoot a 190 class buck at 85 yds. Piled him up and rolled down the mountain. Only to watch him get up after 30 seconds of tumbling around and a few yells of great joy. And then never to see him again. We will never use them again!!! I use accubonds and have recovered many bullets, from buffalo down, and in my opinion it's the best killing bullet out there. Close or far away, ( one antelope at 1020 yds on video) fast or slow bullets , it just works!!!!
 
In the complete absence of failure from anything not TS, it is amazing how Barnes ever got a market share.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I've shot TSX bulletes in everything from .257 Roberts up to .416 Rigby with excellent results. This past weekend 8 animals were taken with 168 gr tipped tsx bullets in .308 and 30.06. All were one shot kills, and all did massive internal damage.
In a typical year, I witness between 30-50 kills with TSX bullets. I have yet to witness a failure of any kind. On occassion, when a massive bone is hit, one or two of the petals may break off. No problem, the animal is down at that point, and the remainder of the bullet does its job.

I believe shot placement is critical, but I shoot TSX bullets to give me that extra measure of performance when the bullet placement is less than optimal. I've yet to find the bullet that proves suddenly fatal when the animal is hit in the rear hoof, and I don't think I really want to use that kind of projectile. TSX, Partition, or any premium bullet is good insurance if selected wisely for the task at hand.
Bill
 
Just got back from a safari in South Africa. Took my 300 weatherby shooting the 165 Barnes Triple Shocks @ about 3300 fps. I wanted to shoot the 180's but my rifle didn't like them at all, so I went with the 165's. I took 7 animals with 7 shots, only 1 bullet was recovered, a hard quartering away shot on my Kudu, went through the guts and was stuck in the hide between the off side shoulder and the neck. The bullet was missing a petal, besides that the perfect mushroom Barnes are known for. All of my other shots were pass through's, and my animals were stone dead in less than 100 yards, with blood trails, Stevie Wonder could follow. The damage inside of the chest cavity on my animals was impressive to say the least.
 
I had a triple shock fail last year on a bull I shot at 130 yards. The tip was smashed a bit, but that was it. It hit the bulls shoulder and dropped him like a rock. He ended up getting back up, and the second shot put him down for good. I'll post up a pic when I get can get to the bullet. I was shooting federal premium (180 grain) in 30-06 caliber.

So the question now is, what do I replace it with. Accubond? Nosler? Only a couple of weeks to make my mind up!
 
I have never seen a triple shock fail, and have witnessed dozens of kills with them.

That's why I chose the TTSX for my personal hunt last year. 230yds with a 3006, through the scapula. Fell over like it was on a hinge. Bullet passed through behind the off shoulder and there was no doubt on expansion.

These weren't hand loads were they?
 
Used Triple Shocks in 7mm, 300win, 300 RUM and .338 all handloads so they shot well at the range. They punch holes on anything within 100yds, perform poorly out to 400yds and performed well 500yds plus all on elk. Really didnt matter which caliber. Not to mention are a pain to reload. Just my 2 cents...
 
A whole lot of these "failures" sound like poor shot placement,even if the bullet didnt expand proper shot placement would have killed the animal.
 
Ding ding ding we have a winner!!! If you hit a elk above the kill zone and bellow the spine, its a meat shot. Even magic bullets will have a hard time with that one ;-)
What about these guys pulling bullets out of a dead animal,saying the bullet failed because it had a pedal knock off ??
Come on guys do your part !!
 
Don't mean to hijack the thread but someone mentioned something about bullets now days should make a complete pass through on an animal. This is a picture of last years elk. I shot it at 90 yards with a 300 ultra mag shooting those 180 grain sciroccos. What you are looking at is the entry wound. There is no exit hole. (The shot placement at 90 yards is because of the tree he was standing behind. That was all that was exposed and he had me busted).
45722010_elk_hunt_013.jpg

The first shot dropped it and then it got right back up that is why the second shot was issued. I will not be using that type of bullet EVER. If the penetration is that crappy at that close distance, I can't imagine taking a 400-500 yard shot at an animal and expecting leathal results.
 
There are a bunch of misconceptions floating around out there about what a bullet does, can do and should do.

Some say "my bullet won't expand at close range but it will at longer ranges (slower velocities)"

That's not how a bullet works guys.

When a bullet impacts with higher speeds (closer ranges) it will have a more violent expansion. This is why we need a more substantial bullet at close ranges and the fragile bullets will work best at longer ranges. At longer ranges the bullet will have less expansion and you can get away with a more fragile construction. I have seen the ill effects of a fragile bullet at close range. It's not good. Period.

We ask a lot of our bullets and usually we prefere to blame the bullet for our poor performance. Some failures will occur, at various ranges, with any bullet on the market. However, there are just too many variables to put all the blame on the bullet design or maker.

I think some bullets are better suited for certain size animals but my suspicion is that MOST bullet failures are simply a case of poor bullet placement.

It gets even more complicated than that when we throw in other variables like sectional density, terminal velocitiy, construction, bonding, jacket material, core material, etc.

Remember; Shot placement is KING.

PS; Barnes have worked great for us. On one trip we shot 33 animals, with various calibers, and the performance was stellar. I've probably seen 4 or 5 dozen animals killed with the Barnes without any problems.

Zeke
 
I shot an antelope yesterday. Used a 243 with an 85 grain barnes triple shock. Performed perfectly. I'll be using barnes on a late elk hunt out of my 300 win. without any hesitation.
 
i agree with zeke about bullets expanding more at close range than long, however shot placement is the problem here. i know it sounds backwards but hitting bone will cause a bullet not to expand. the more dense the material that the bullet goes into the less it will be able to deform and expand. if you dont believe me then shoot some bullets into green trees and dig them out. even a hollow point wont expand if you fill the nose cavity on impact and the outer part of the nose has too much pressure on it to expand. shoulder shots are great but i think a lot of people go too high in the shoulder above the vitals where there is nothing but bones that dont really support the legs and tough muscle.
 
20 years ago i shot some Partitions and some X-bullets into an old lodgepole round, split the wood and measured the bullet path. 3 Partitions averaged 11 inches penetration and 3 X-bullets averaged 18 inches. One of the 3 X-bullets lost one petal. Basically the same load, 210 grain bullets outta a .338. Naturally I went with the X-bullets. 2 kills in a row, pushing that 210 grain bullet close to 3000 fps, inside 75 yds, didn't exit on a cow and a yearling. I was shocked both times at the lack of blood. Both animals died within 50 yards but were in timber and without snow, I may have been in trouble. After my unscientific test and those results, you'd think I'd change bullets??? Now I shoot the Triple Shock, :).

Reason is all of the bulls I've killed are shot in the shoulder and they have always dropped in thier tracks. The cows are always shot behind the shoulder and that's where the penetration is suspect. My (unscientific) theory is that the x-bullet/Triple Shock has such a large frontal area after expanding, it has a hard time gettng through elk hide.

I'm not trying to change anybodies mind on what's the best elk bullet, just my limited experience.
 
I've yet to see one of these bullet posts, where someone can't come up with some failures for any given premium bullet. Seems to me that the TSX, Partition, Accubond, and yes even the Berger have fairly substantial reliability based on real world feedback, but ALL of them do have failures. I can't say the same for the Ballistic Tip and some other targer first bullets like the Sierra Match Kings.

The extremes to me seem to be Berger vs TSX as the first is meant to basically come apart, while the other has near 100% retention. Oddly enough they both seem to suffer the same failure on occasion, which is zero expansion and penciling through. Both also seem to have strong reputations for killing, just in very different ways.

I'm not sure but I think that since bullets are manufactured in lots, where jacket material and jacket thickness can vary, even if only a little, it can impact the reliability of expansion at both High and Low speeds. Clearly some manufacturers list their min velocity. I think Accubond is 1800 fps.

Bottom line is while some are more reliable than others, the primary premium hunting bullets all seem to be statistically reliable and we can only help by placing the bullet in the zone. I prefer the bergers and accubonds to the TSX, because I want energy left in the animal, but understand why someone who hunts timber would want a blood trail. My first inclination is to pick the one your gun shoots wel. Oddly enough my guns have all shot the TSX well with little effort.
 
Here is a picture of a failed bullet. It happens to be a Sierra.
6272img_0515.jpg


This was recovered from a bull elk shot at 70 yards broadside . It is a 7 mm win mag. The bullet never exited the elk. When we skinned it we found little pieces of copper scattered around and stuck in the hide on the otherside.
Now for you engery guys...this is a good bullet and transferred all of its energy ? I think not!
It hit a rib and came apart going in . Lucky for us my brother in law had the shot centered over its heart. The elk went down and we where so close we where able to cut his throat while he was still down. He did go down and didn't get up.
These where his own hand loads and after this and atleast one other bull he lost a year before this hunt. He now loads Barnes bullets and has not lost another animal.
 
I agree Mr Bigjont! I don't want a bullet coming completely apart. I like penetration with any angle.

I just heard a first-hand account of a big bull shot, at close range, in the back of the head (out of necessity). When the guy walked up to the bull if jumped up and had a staring contest with him until he could shoot it again.

The fragile bullet came completely apart and penetrated nothing but skin.

"I'll take mine with a dash of penetration please"

Zeke

PS: Add 2 more antelope and another bull elk to the Barnes tally... so far in 2011. My daughter used the 200 AB on her big bull with excellent results.... at 60 yards.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-11 AT 03:11PM (MST)[p]>A whole lot of these "failures"
>sound like poor shot placement,even
>if the bullet didnt expand
>proper shot placement would have
>killed the animal.

Had a couple of these on a hunt:
256modbarn.jpg


I don't have the pic at this PC, but on the same hunt, had a bullet that exploded and fragmented on impact. The shot was is the kill zone so we were fortuante enough to recover the animal. I sent the pic to Barnes and they acknowleged the failure.

Several problems with them on one hunt. In their defense, they did say the bullet I posted, lost all 4 petals. The one or two other we recovered, looked similiar. Do they lose the petals everytime lol...

I had some pass throughs as well. Little to no blood trail....
 
Not a single failure with a Barnes, nor a Partition for that matter, but the game goes down harder with a Barnes.

I've used them since 1992, for my 22Hornet, 222remmag, 243, 270, 30-06, and my 2 hunting buddies 243, 270, 300Win, 300WSM and 300Weatherby, 13 rifles in all.

I've killed a variety of game with them, from turkey to elk, and witnessed my buddies killing antelope to moose with Barnes, and have had excellent performance on each.

On the plus side, we have the best bullets ever made to choose from, Barnes TSX or TTSX, Scirrocos, Accubonds, GMX, Aframes, Etips, Partitions, etc.. Pick your flavor and go kill something.
 
I have yet to have a Barnes fail me...
This is a barnes that went through my bull last year, alongside two hornadays that killed two different deer last year. They all worked, none of the animals took but a couple steps total...
IMG_9268.jpg


This is the bullet from my moose this year. Went through both shoulders and lodged against the hide on the far end...
MooseBullet2.jpg


MooseBullet3.jpg


I have heard complaints from a few super magnum shooting buddies... These bullets are all from about 2900 fps 30-06, 168 grainers. I wont be switching anytime soon! I've had the same results on about 6 bull elk and maybe 6-8 deer in the last 8 years.
 
Picture perfect HS, those look great!
I've seen a lot of elk tipped over with the BTS, this year was the first failure i've seen.
I shoot the 165's out of my 300wby and love them!
 
Still very few who want to correlate speed with bullet performance. NO bullet is best at every speed. Too fast they come apart unless they are solids. Too slow they don't expand unless they are really soft. There is a reason we have such disagreements and that is because bulls get hit at everywhere from 1200 fps to 3500 fps. There is also a reason partition-type bullets are popular. You can have a quick expanding portion for slower speeds followed by a solid core in case the front blows up on a close shot. If most of your shots are long range pick a soft bullet. If you're in the timber and still shooting a mag go with a barnes.
 
the kali kondors are now being tested & show high concentrates of kopper poisoning thanks to kali hunters shooting the kali approved barnes bullets

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