.243

elkbow8

Member
Messages
66
I's sure this topic has been brought up before. But I am interested in taking my nephew on a youth hunt next year. I may be opening up a can of worms here but is 243. sufficient or ethical for that matter to hunt elk with. Thanks
 
I wouldn't hesitate to use my 243. I would suggest you limit your shots to about 200 yards though. A good premium bullet like the 100gr Nosler partiton would be a great choice. Also make sure the youth gets plenty of practice with the rifle from the bench and field positions.
 
In the right hands of an experienced person it can take an elk, but it's not designed fo an animal of that size and I would not allow a young, inexperienced kid to use one on an animal that size. You might start him on the bench with that and then work up to a larger rifle of say 25-06 and better to a 30 caliber. With the proper pad and plenty of practice with the bigger caliber, including using real good ear protection, the youngster will probably be ready to use a bigger caliber for that hunt by next season. A lot of people don't realize that many times flinching is caused as much by the sound of the bigger equipment than the recoil. Good luck, but I would stay away from that caliber for elk for the kid. It would be fine for antelope through deer for them though.
 
If you must use the .243 the by all means use a premium 100 gr. bullet. Better choices would 7mm 08, 7x57, or .308, or 30-06 with 165 gr. bullets. Good luck
 
Please avoid using a .243 for a youth elk hunt. At best, the .243 requires expert placement to be effective on an elk. More than likely a youth will not have perfect placement, and you will have a long tracking job and unpleasant expereince for the kid.

There are reduced recoil loads from Rem in many of the more common big game calibers. Practice with those and use full power loads on the actual hunt. He will never notice the recoil in the excitement of the hunt.

Bill
 
The 243 is a great gun for it's use/size!

It Ain't big enough to chance shots on Elk!

Yes,I've killed Big Game with My 22 Mag & Red Ryder but damn man get the Kid a Gun big enough for the job and take one more "what if/Risk" out of the Equation!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
No. 7mm-08 is what my wife shoots, no recoil and you can get the heavier slugs. Still limit it to 300 and under IF the kid can even shoot 300 yds....

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
I always assumed my wife wouldn't like the recoil if the trusty '06, but after shooting the 243 and killing some deer with it I switched her to my 30-06. She lived it. Go get a nice recoil pad and put him behind a gun that he'll love.



It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
 
Hey TH3006---I'm glad you weighed in on this one as I thought of your wife after I made my post. I think she is a perfect example of what we are talking about and she PROVED it last Fall when you moved her up to the 06 after you asked the same question on here about using the .243 on elk!!!
 
We shot a elk at 60 yards with a 300 ultra right thur the front shoulder.. It got up and ran off. they are tough some bitches
"Its about the chase, Not the kill"
 
Thanks for your input. We will be getting a new rifle for Christmas..... Too bad a tag doesn't come with it.

Thanks again...
 
I've shot elk with a 243 and also a 6mm. Matter of fact, I broke both shoulders on a raghorn bull with the 6mm, bullet was just under the hide on the off-shoulder (100 grain partition).

The 3 most important things in killing elk are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement, roughly in that order.

If your nephew shoots the 243 well and you use a 100 grain bullet like a nosler partition it will work just fine.

I'd not even hesitate to pack a 243/6mm for elk.

Elk die just like everything else, a bullet through the wheel-house and its all over but the packing.
 
Years ago, Jack O'Connor used to catch grief from some other gun writers about using his trusty 270 on elk, but he always preached two things.
First as Buzz stated, shot placement is critical and
Second as others have also stated, using well constructed bullets.
If you don't have the money to buy a bigger gun for him, then follow his sage advice.

IMHO, lots depends on how big and capable your nephew is. If he can handle a bigger gun, then by all means go there. But if he can't handle the recoil, that would be even worse because he won't make the right shot placement (first principle).
Try him out first before you burn $ on a new rig that he can't shoot.
 
.270 with 140 grain nosler accubonds. 25-06 with 117 grain sierras or 110 grain accubonds. Those two combinations have a combined 25 plus elk kills in my family. Don't get me wrong I won't trade my 300RUM for anything but when I was younger I killed a pile of elk with a .270 and 25-06. Like said before me shot placement is key. But I don't care if its a 100 grain bullet in the lungs or a 200 grain bullet its going to die.
 
Echo to post #7.

I love a .243 and always have. But, I would use it on elk ONLY IF IT WAS THE ONLY CARTRIDGE AVAILABLE. But since we all have a choice I'd get a 7mm-08 or bigger.

Even a lighter premium bullet, in a larger caliber, is bigger and better than a .243.

When my youngest daughter started hunting deer I bought a 300 WSM and used reduced loads with a 130 TSX Barnes..... it's deadly on deer. Now that she's older, when she hunted a cow elk this year we bumped up the load to 150 TTSX Barnes. It worked to perfection. We recovered the bullet and it looks like a Barnes bullet ad!

Zeke
 
With a 100 grain Triple Shock or a Nosler Partition I'm sure he would be just fine with a 243 if he can shoot and limits his shots. I have a buddy in Idaho who has killed several dozen elk with a 243 (it's all he has) and he just picks his shots carefully and hits what he's shooting at. He has lived in the backcountry his whole life and outfits elk, sheep, etc.

I wouldn't buy him a new rifle if he can shoot the one he's got and is comfortable with it. A bunch of us here in Colorado shoot elk with 257 Weatherbys loaded with 100 grain Triple Shocks. The elk don't seem to notice.
 
I bumped my 13 yo daughter up to the 7mm-08 from a 223 then 243. She likes shooting it like the 223 (they are both youth models )and I am pleased with its performance on her deer this year. Suppose to be comparable to the 270 withouth the recoil.
 
"Shot placement is key." True words to be sure. I think the problem lies with an inexperienced hunter, exitement and maybe a host of other less than perfect conditions. Then, bad shot placement is REALITY. The largest cartridge one can handle is a good idea with elk. While I've never shot an elk with a .243, I've been witness to two that were. The first was lost. The second, while the shots were placed in the vitals, ended up taking a 200 grain Accubond to put down before covering more distance than it should have. The bull would have died, but damage from the .243 was not very impressive. mtmuley
 
mtmuley---That is exactly why I implored travishunter3006 to move his wife up from the .243 to his 30-06 for her elk hunt and they were both very happy they went that route!
 
My stupid cousin used a .243 years ago and shot about a 330 - 340 bull at less than 100 yards and never found it. He also shot a nice buck with it and hit it in the face and never found that either. If you use a small cal. like .243 on big game you better know how to shoot it and where to put the bullet !! or you'll wish you had the right tool for the job.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 08:57AM (MST)[p]

I too think the 243 should only be used by expert marksmen for an elk.

We hold Father/kid hunts every year and I like Remington managed-recoil loads:

http://www.basspro.com/Remington?-ManagedRecoil?-Centerfire-Rifle-Ammo/product/69939/140063

(above link would not copy fully as a link, so you have to copy and paste in your address bar)

I have the kids shoot a 30-06 with the 125 gr managed recoil and it truly feels like a 243. Good to go for deer sized game out to 200 yards.

However, as stated earlier: practice with the reduced recoil and jump to the 150 gr normal bullets for the hunt. The kid will never know the difference during the hunt. Of course you will have to resight the gun with the bigger ammo prior to the hunt. If he grows up to be an elk hunter, you don't ever have to buy him another rifle.

SECONDLY: put a Sims recoil pad on the gun. They really work!!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I'm glad I had my wife use the '06. TOPGUN is 100% correct. Instead of saying what is the smallest caliber for a specific animal, ask what's the largest gun you can handle (within reason). A 12's yr old can take the punishment of a 30-06 especially when equipped with a recoil pad.



It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
 
Sufficient...usually/often, sometimes not
Ethical...judging by the number of negative answers...possibly not. But, it is legal and the Gamd & Fish folks think that it will work, so actually, that makes it ethical, as they make the rules. (as a side note, on a youth hunt, run by the CO-DOW, they specify, I think, .270 or bigger)

I have used the .243 on Elk, it took 3 shots. The first one was a tad high, taking off the top of a lung and hitting the spine and then disappearing. If it would have gone through the spine it would have made my life much easier. I can tell you that a deer/cheap .243 bullet will bust an elk's shoulder to smitereeens and then disappear. (from my locality I was able to watch the elk go lay down and also see that it was blowing out blood around its mouth, I shot him again and then approched, as I neared, he stood up, I blasted him again...he promptly ran into a deep crevice of a thing and died...he was a bear to get out of that hole). I found one bullet in the elk. They were all fairly decent hits.

Now, if you handload, and use a Barnes or Partiition, that changes things. I was being cheap and it really, REALLY hurt me.

I know a guy that knows of a ranch/outfitter in CO that used to, or still does use 6mms as their loaner rifles. They have the boys test their guns on the first/arrival day. If they can't shoot their .338 WhizzBangUltraMag (WBUM) then they tell the hunter, look, somthing is obviously wrong w/your scope/rifle. We don't have time to sort out the problem but we have a 6mm and if you take your time and shoot squeeze the trigger and PUT THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT SPOT it will kill an elk. The guy shoots the teensy-weensy 6mm and instantly the guy turns into a SGT York type of shooter. The guy then shoots the elk in the lungs and then falls over dead. So, they have good success w/the 6mm (which is pretty mush the same thing as a .243).

The secret w/any elk gun is the bullet.
John 14:6
 
I have said it in another thread but her is to your question... In my opinion yes it is sufficient enough with the right SHOT PLACEMENT again and again... Make sure he is confident in shooting whatever rifle you decide to use and can shoot it accurately and I emphasize again SHOT PLACEMENT and reload and SHOT PLACEMENT until he doesnt move anymore :) you are there to shoot just make sure your shooting the right area lol

On another note I like a little bigger rifle for hunting elk totally my prefrence though I like a little more thump than a .243 just me though I hope you do well and get him out shooting early
 
I used a 243 100 grain soft point for my spike this year i ranged him just over 400 yards put my cross hairs top of his back squeezed the trigger hit him right through the shoulder he just stood there shot again missed the third shot almost the same place dropped him in his tracks the cool part was even thoe it was a long shot my bullets passed all the way through. Would i use my 243 again on elk you bet.
 
coyote123 (17 posts)
Dec-22-11, 04:50 PM (MST)
28. "RE: .243"
I used a 243 100 grain soft point for my spike this year i ranged him just over 400 yards put my cross hairs top of his back squeezed the trigger hit him right through the shoulder he just stood there shot again missed the third shot almost the same place dropped him in his tracks the cool part was even thoe it was a long shot my bullets passed all the way through. Would I use my 243 again on elk you bet.


Do you realize that bullet drops at least 18" and has less than 1000ft/lbs of energy at that distance. No wonder he just stood there as he probably thought he got stung by a bee! Sorry, but IMHO that is way too far for any elk with that caliber and conventional wisdom from experts says that animal should be hit with 1500 ft/lbs of energy to do a really good job so he will be DRT. That makes the .243 about a 200 yard gun at best. I think you were real lucky that bull stayed where he was, especially if you missed with the second shot at an animal that size. It sounds like it was more luck at that distance than anything else and I would suggest you not push your luck again or you'll probably be telling a sad storry about the bull that got away!
 
Absolute one BS stunt with that caliber and John Burns can KMA putting out stuff like that. I wonder what the holdover was on that shot!!! This kind of chit is going to be the death of me yet. LR is one thing, but at least use a friggin caliber where you don't have to aim at the moon to lob it in---Geez!!!
 
well topgun if u was there to see the 2 holes that busted the front shoulder and out the the other side you would think other wise im not real big on what experts say because ive proved them wrong on a few ocassions does that make me an expert no! but i know my gun and the bullets i shoot have i ever lost an animal nope and ive killed alot of animals. Now do i think a youth should shoot that far No! but if you know your ammo and rifle and you shoot it all the time i say why not sorry if it sounds rude im not trying to make enemys on MM.
 
TOPGUN, Advertising, my friend. Burns knows his stuff where shooting is concerned, but videos like that sell bullets and rifles. While I will not condemn folks that choose the LR thing (folks that KNOW rifles,ballistics and shooting), I don't think the display of it to the masss is neccessarily a good thing. But...advertising. mtmuley
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-11 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]mtmuley---I'm fully aware of why they are doing it and I know those guys, including Burns, know what they're doing. However, it chaps my azz when they push all that stuff off on average people like it's so simple. Those people then go out because of that BS advertising and buy the equipment and one box of shells thinking all they need to do is dope out the distance and put the crosshairs on the animal. Shooting that elk with the .243 was just a friggin stunt with the minimal ft/lbs that caliber has at that distance on an animal that size. I just don't see what these people get out of this long range stuff other than selling equipment to make a living. I have no problem if it's a last resort because you can't get any closer and you know your equipment through hours of practice with lots of rounds down the pipe. It's these shows that intentionally set people up like that girl for those long shots just to sell their wares when the game could have been approached to a much closer distance to greatly increase the chance that the animal will be humanely taken.

coyote123---No problem having a debate like this, but why use a marginal caliber on an animal that size and then push the envelope out to 400+ yards. Sooner or later doing that is going to result in just what I stated. Cripes, most say that 400+ yards is even pushing it on elk with a .270 or 30-06!!!
 
Original Message
"RE: .243"
Posted by REDDOG on Dec-23-11 at 08:26 PM
"holdover"? really??


Who is that meant for and why that post? If it was just to be a smartazz you accomplished your goal!!! If I'm misreading the post, then sorry! At the distances we're talking about the bullet drops so much that if they weren't using those fancy adjustable turret scopes you would be holding over the back of the animal with the reticle so far with a normal scope that you probably would be lucky to see the vitals that the bullet is intended to hit!
 
WOW..with your knowledge of LR shooting, you should be reading/taking notes. Not typing.

Your argument of the LR for dummies system portrayed by burns and other outfits is spot on, and I agree.But try not to speak about specifics/ballistics. it makes it obvious you are in over your head.

if you were on a forum that had shooting knowledge, you would be ran off for the BS "holdover/FT.lbs" comments..My last comment on the subject.
 
You Two can get a Room!

And REDDOG!

Put the Signature Girl back up or be called a Pusssy!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Glad it's your last comment because if you don't think the rifle barrel is being held well over the animal to hit it even though the turret reticle is on the animal, then you better go back to first grade as well as learning how to read ballistics tables. The drop on the .243 is a good 18" or more at 400+ yards with a 200 yard zero and the ft/lbs of energy are below 1000, so get off my case! By the way, I think there are plenty of members on this site that have plenty of shooting knowledge, including long range, and I don't see any of them disagreeing with any information I've stated. Rather than post a bunch of BS, why don't you say exactly what is incorrect if you're such an expert in telling me I'm way off base!!!
 
Topgun i see what your saying but like i said in my last post i shoot my gun quite often and i also shoot with a LR scope i have many years experience with all my guns and i wouldnt try wonding animals with the wrong bullet the bullets i use are capable of doing what i need them too with the gun and scope i use. Its good to see hunters like you haveing concern about our elk and deer herds.
 
LoL Found this comment in those threads.

'Obviously a fake. Everybody knows elk live in the timber, and .243s bounce off.'
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Myself, i won't even hunt deer with a .243 let alone a bull elk. I have my Dad's old model 70 243 in my gun safe, took my first and 6-7 other bucks with it many years ago. Dad took many, many more with it but he also took forever, drove me crazy, to get a shot off with it but you could absolutely bank money that some part of that deer's heart was hit with that first shot. In almost every single case, the bucks ran off like they weren't even hit. Sure, we recovered most of them but i like a buck that shows he's porked up when well hit. I use .257, or up, caliber rifles, on bucks and no longer have that problem. Elk? No Way would i ever hunt one with a .243, never would take that chance because, i don't have to.

If some here don't like my opinion on this issue, fine, but you'd be wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
GEEZUS sage & REDDOG!

Quit being so THICK HEADED!:D

Did I ever tell you about the time I used my 243 to shoot a Deer at .......................Oh GAWD,nevermind!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Yeah sure Bessy! You don't have a few of your own view points made up long ago, do you? By the way, isn't that a .375 Ultra Mag that you are fixen to hunt Elk with?

Merry Christmas to you too!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Well sage!

Gonna try it out on the Shoulder first & then move on up to Prarrie Dogs and hopefully some day on up to Elk!

Same to Ya,Merry Christmas!





Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-11 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]Sage---Good post and exactly what I'm saying. The .243 is a great little caliber, but that's what it was built for, little stuff! It will do a number on animals up through antelope, but you start getting into issues with it just like you stated on deer or bigger game. I'm with you in that I want enough ft/lbs of energy in a caliber that will take that animal down ASAP near where he was standing. The mulie I shot this year with a handloaded 30-06 150 grain Hornady BTSP didn't even twitch when he was knocked off his feet with his heart torn in half at 174 yards! The same may have happened with my .243 Sako, but I doubt it. I really like my 25-06 Ruger with 117 grain Hornady BTSPs for antelope and especially like to carry it if I'm also deer hunting at the time. Otherwise, if it's a deer hunt I normally carry one of my 30-06s like the pre64 Model 70 I used this year on that buck.
I have no idea why reddog posted that link because it had no value in this debate and was just a bunch of people chattering on a site with praises stroking John Burn's ego and telling him how great he is to do what he does! He may know ballistics and be involved with making some really good equipment that will shoot LR, but taking that girl out in that video was a stunt to sell his wares and nothing else!!! He even stated that she had never shot the gun or even at a big game animal before she pulled the trigger in that video! Is that bordering on unethical---I think so!!!
One last thing for Reddog and his BS towards me and that is that whether you hold up over the animal with the reticle of a normal scope on a long range shot or adjust the turrets for elevation on these newer scopes so you can hold the reticle on the vitals, you are still holding over (barrel towards the sky to some degree for you mr dog!) the animal to drop the bullet into the sweet spot. A bullet immediately starts dropping below barrel level no matter what the caliber and that is just simple physics. Most experts in ballistics feel that a bullet should deliver a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs of energy on a deer and 1500 ft/lbs on an elk to lessen the chance of a wounding shot. Look up the .243 in any table and you will see the distance where it drops below those levels is what I stated and it's not much over 200 yards.
 
Waitin for REDDOGS reply & Ressurection of his Signature!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I just know that the 243 is a stretch FOR ME to include as a recommended Mule deer cartridge. Elk? No!

Dog has and sometimes hunts a 6mm-06, a same caliber but different beast entirely. With a heavy for caliber longer bullet, it could conceivably compete with the 25-06 or even .257 Weatherby. Still, for Elk, if you don't have to, why take the chance. Use enough gun!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
What you Guys don't know is that REDDOG might of Invented the 243 RUM & He's sittin on it!:D

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
lol, and why wouldn't i be too surprised? :)

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
"I used a 243 100 grain soft point for my spike this year i ranged him just over 400 yards put my cross hairs top of his back squeezed the trigger hit him right through the shoulder he just stood there shot again missed the third shot almost the same place dropped him in his tracks the cool part was even thoe it was a long shot my bullets passed all the way through. Would i use my 243 again on elk you bet."

I am sure YOU can make that shot again with the same results. Power to you. But are you really going to come on here and imply that this guy should let a youngster shoot an elk at 400 yards with a 243?

Your shot was successful because of your marksmanship, and truth be known, it was probably good that you used a soft point at that distance. But I would be afraid to use that same bullet through the shoulder at 30 yards. You know as well as I that it might blow up and result in a lost animal

So I will say again, yes the 243 is enough for elk in the hands of the right person. But that person is not a youngster on his first elk hunt.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
It is always amazing to me how many people that hunt have absolutly no knowlege about calibers or what they can do. A .243 with good shot placement will drop any Bull on the face of this earth. Just like any caliber. I've killed deer just as fast with a .243 as I did with a .300 win it has absolute no difference what caliber you use it is where you hit them. The only reason why people by the super mags is because they fell for a marketing scheme. If it worked in the past trust me it still works the same today, we aren't hunting dinosaurs. If you say I don't know what I'm talking about i've owned everything from .22 lr up to .416 rigby and even 338 lapua. I wouldnt hesitate to hunt elk at all with a good 243 and an accurate rifle. Hit em right and they fall every time! If you dont think its powerful enough how bout you go stand out at 300 yds and tell me if it hurts when i hit ya :) haha.
 
I could give a rip how many calibers you've owned. For you to come on here and say it makes no difference what caliber you hit them with and that it's only where you hit them is pure BS!!! That last sentence really topped it off comparing a person's rib cage to a bull elk. Go drink some more eggnog, but leave the hard stuff out from now on!!!
 
elk hunter, sounds like you know your weapons and feel comfortable with them. I agree that shot placement is very important. Going up to what Tex58 says though in his last paragraph, i also agree with. Some kids or beginning hunters might not be the great shot that you are or with all the experience and patience to hold off until the perfect shot placement is available.

Given the choice, would you prefer a 243 in your hands on a tough big bull hunt over, say, a 280AI or 300 win mag? i wouldn't and believe it's almost an absurd question.

Easy on us old guys who also have a bit of wisdom under their belts.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
IF she can shoot the lights out with a 243, BUT can't do as well with the "06" I would have her shoot the 243.
Shot placement is the most important thing Period. A lead pellet thru the lungs and that elk is going to hit the ground.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Thanks Sage, my response to that would be that no matter what caliber you use, you need to wait for a perfect shot placement. You can still easily wound an animal with a bigger caliber. Most guys get Ultras and they flinch all day long with them. End up shooting the animals a few times cause their hitting them wrong. Would I take a .300 win over a .243 elk hunting? Sure! because the kick of 300's doesnt bother me a bit and I can shoot mine very well never had to shoot twice. But for a Kid all he needs is something he can shoot very well feeling confident and shoot accurately. It really comes down to the fact that dead is dead. heart shot with .243 or a .300 can't kill them anymore than dead. Didnt mean to start an argument but just trying to help people understand that accurate placement is most important than anything. I'm going to let my son start off with .243 for elk. Not even hesitating.
 
Shot placement is certainly a huge part of the game and sure the .243 will take that bull down with a properly placed shot. However, do you want to possibly chase the SOB for a mile or two or kill him close to where he's standing?
 
First im not telling any youth to go out and shoot an elk with a 243 im just saying it was done by me because i know my guns and ammo. second i keep hearing bigger calibers r better i have a buddy whos wife shot a deer at 150 yards 3 times with a 300 ultra mag now thats a heck of a gun they chased that deer a half mile before finding it and putting one more shot into it needless to say i saw the pics i have no clue how that deer was still standing half its side was missing but my point is even the big dogg calibers have there days and the animals have a stronger will to live. Ive shoot every gun out there and dont mind any of them but the 243 for me is my choice of weapon. Now would i shoot farther than 400 plus NO! but i know i can make that 400 yard shot and less everytime with the 243.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-11 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p] coyote, i don't believe that you are helping your argument. A 400yd shot at elk with a .243 Win "pop gun" should be against the law! lol

Elk hunter, you make some great points. I'll just have to agree to disagree, go on my own experiences with that particular cartridge and recommend that you get your son a 7mm-08 or similar if you can. Easy on kids and they won't be shopping for something "a little bigger" near as soon as they grow older. In fact, i'm wanting one now.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
We understand what YOU did with your .243 and I know that it still takes proper shot placement with ANY caliber. Sure, animals will go if they're hit in a bad spot with a big caliber or if the proper bullet isn't used with distance also factored in for the caliber and bullet. That's probably what happened with that gal shooting a deer at 150 yards with that big gun. You can also overgun and end up with what you said happened to them. I'd have her on a 30-06 or something similar for deer, rather than that big magnum and let her use the big boomer on an elk when she draws a tag.
 
>One last thing for Reddog and
>his BS towards me and
>that is that whether you
>hold up over the animal
>with the reticle of a
>normal scope on a long
>range shot or adjust the
>turrets for elevation on these
>newer scopes so you can
>hold the reticle on the
>vitals, you are still holding
>over (barrel towards the sky
>to some degree for you
>mr dog!) the animal to
>drop the bullet into the
>sweet spot. A bullet
>immediately starts dropping below barrel
>level no matter what the
>caliber and that is just
>simple physics. Most experts in
>ballistics feel that a bullet
>should deliver a minimum of
>1000 ft/lbs of energy on
>a deer and 1500 ft/lbs
>on an elk to lessen
>the chance of a wounding
>shot. Look up the .243
>in any table and you
>will see the distance where
>it drops below those levels
>is what I stated and
>it's not much over 200
>yards.


Stop it! WOW
 
Wondered where you've been all day, LOL! Is that all you can add to what has bascially been a decent discussion since you posted your BS last night? WOW---Really!!!
 
A bad shot with a .30 is just as bad as a bad shot with a .243. You won't recover the animal. A heart/lung shot is just as fatal with a .243 as any .30 you can throw at it. There is no argument here. Hit vitals = dead elk or deer, end of story. If you want to throw some more fine. If you want to throw a little less fine. Still gonna kill them. I personally wouldn't shoot at anything over 400 yards with any caliber, but that's just me. Then we can get into an argument about B.C and S.D where a quality .243 bullet by design will actually out penetrate most of the smaller .30's you guys are pushing. A quality bullet in any of the said calibers will work. Don't need to bash a guy for letting his kid use a .243. I have seen more elk and deer killed with a .243 and 30/30 than any other round. Can't argue with results. Can only argue about piss poor shooting.


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"You need to wait for a perfect shot placement." And after that, throw your elk tag away at the end of the season. mtmuley
 
darktimber---Where have you been hunting to make that last statement about the .243 and 30-30, as I've been hunting out in Wyoming since 1992 and have never seen a single person carrying either of those calibers on an elk hunt! The big thing is do you want to kill that bull in 5 or 10 seconds with a bigger caliber put in the right place or possibly look for 5 to 10 hours after he runs off and maybe not even recover the animal that will die from that 243. I am not questioning anybody that says the .243 will kill him with the proper bullet and placement, just how long it might take for him to go down for the count! Peace guys and I hope all of you have a Blessed Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!
 
" Look up the .243 in any table and you will see the distance where it drops below those levels is what I stated and it's not much over 200 yards."


The knowledge on this sight is just amazing, and I don't know what "experts" have given us as the minimum amount of energy to kill elk or deer with. You poke a hole through the lungs of an elk with a 243 and you've got a dead elk period.John said he was shooting the 105 VLD's at 3050 fps. Here's the ballistics for about 6000 ft of elevation.
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.243 inches | Temperature: 30 degrees | Sight Height: 1.7 inches |
| Weight: 105 grains | Pressure: 23.50 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G7 BC: 0.272 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 30 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G7 Form Factor: 0.934 | Density: 0.06358 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 3050 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
0 3050 2169 0.00 0.0000 0.00
100 2904 1966 -0.00 0.1008 -0.41
200 2761 1778 -1.16 0.2067 -0.84
300 2622 1603 -3.00 0.3182 -1.30
400 2486 1441 -5.12 0.4357 -1.78
500 2355 1293 -7.47 0.5597 -2.29
600 2227 1156 -10.04 0.6906 -2.82
700 2104 1032 -12.83 0.8292 -3.38
800 1984 918 -15.86 0.9761 -3.98
900 1868 814 -19.16 1.1319 -4.61
1000 1756 719 -22.75 1.2975 -5.28
 
Don't really have know much about ballistics charts, but when I enter the above data in one I use, I get nearly -23 inches of drop at 400 yards. Not sure if mine is right, but yours (-5.12 inches) seems unbelievable.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Apex, 1500 FP of remaining energy as the generally accepted minimum for elk has been around for years and years. If you choose to ignore it, fine.

That is fairly impressive table but i don't believe that many here, wondering what the answer is, are going to be shooting that loading thru their 243's. Most,i suspect, buy the cheap green box stuff...see the link here.

http://www.remington.com/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=9

None of Remington's loadings look much good past 200 yds. Also, with these green box stuff, what might be expected to happen per chance one of these beginning hunters was to get a solid shoulder bone hit. I wouldn't think enough penetration had much of a chance where with good loadings, chamberings designed tried and true traditional elk cartridges, generally have enough of what it takes to bust through, bust up, and bust him down.

You go ahead and recommend young hunters or otherwise to take elk at 4-600 yds with a 243. That's all we need!!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-11 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]
That's because that bullet does drop the amount that you mention and the chart is showing -5.12 MOA. I wish people would take the time to read the article in the link below and there are many more out there like it in regards to the .243 and none of them mention it as being an elk cartridge. The statement I made about 1000 ft/lbs on a deer and 1500 ft/lbs on an elk at POI has been in many articles all the way back to experts in the Jack OConnor/Jim Carmichael era. Here is the link and if you don't have time to read the entire article please read the frist 5-7 paragraphs and look at the ballistics charts at the end. It sort of matches everything I've been saying since the start of this thread and negates all the BS I'm receiving from one particular member! Here is the link:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledge+Base/.243+Winchester.html


Edit for spelling
 
...if a chicken and a half laid an egg and a half.....how many bones are there in vanilla ice cream???


JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
I said it once already!!!

I'll say it again!

You two can get a Room!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Topgun
Your page is not found.
Here is a quote from a Chuck Hawks article on Elk Cartridges.

"A generality is that around 1200 ft. lbs. of energy on target is necessary for humane elk kills, and some sources recommend 1500 ft. lbs. I think that bullet placement is much more important than kinetic energy, but these sorts of figures can serve as a rough guide to the maximum range at which a given load should be used."

The point being anyone can come up with any figure that they think is minimum for taking any animal. Notice what he said about shot placement. He doesn't recommend a 243 for elk in his article but does recommend some calibers of modest energy, like the 30-30 and 32 special.
I have never killed an elk with a 243 but the biggest mule deer I've taken was killed with a 243, that being said I wouldn't be afraid to tackle one with the lowly 243. I've killed 8 elk, 6 of them with a 300 mag and 2 with a bow. The older I get the more I realize you don't need a cannon to kill elk or mule deer. My go to rifle is a 264 Win Mag now and maybe I'll start hunting with my dads old 25-06 that he managed to kill a few elk with, shot placement is the key.
The ballistic knowledge that I learn here is indispensable. Between learning that the bullet is dropping when it leaves the barrel and that inches of drop aren't minutes of angle of drop, I am getting smarter by the minute, thanks guys.

txhunter, multiply moa x 1.047 x (yardage divided by 100) equals inches of drop. In my example that would be 21.44 inches at 400 yards.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-11 AT 10:48PM (MST)[p]Don't know why you're saying it's not found as it's an active link and I just clicked on it in my post and it's working fine!!!

I agree that you don't need a cannon for elk. A 30-06 is plenty and some like the 7mm-08 and similar for younger folks and ladies, but not many drop down to the .243 for that big animal. The .243 is a great little caliber and I have one in a Sako that I'll use all day for up to deer size animals because I know when and when not to shoot with it. I also like my 25-06 Ruger and it's all you need for mulies and probably elk with a bonded bullet at a decent distance. I use one of my 30-06s for deer most of the time out in Wyoming and here in MI for whitetails and that's what I've also used on the elk I've taken out in Wyoming. I load Hornady BTSPs for antelope and deer in those smaller calibers and Interbonds for elk in the 30-06s. I just don't push the envelope way out with it like you can the bigger magnums and because of my eyes getting worse at 64 years old I don't shoot at any big game beyond 350 yards any more.

Take care---MIKE
 
This is a great thread haha-

Topgun- I dont know what they do in Wyoming, but 30-30 used to be a common gun seen in elk camp here in Utah, still is occasionaly. Other question I have about a comment you made below "The big thing is do you want to kill that bull in 5 or 10 seconds with a bigger caliber put in the right place or possibly look for 5 to 10 hours after he runs off and maybe not even recover the animal that will die from that 243."

-My reponse would be well, if their both in the same spot (That is vitals where its supposed to be) it should take the same amount of time.

"I am not questioning anybody that says the .243 will kill him with the proper bullet and placement, just how long it might take for him to go down for the count!"

-If its in the engine block it will be instant or within seconds .243 or .30's

Don't mean to offend ya buddy just dont see where your getting at?
 
The fourth time I clicked on it I finally got it to load.
Here's a quote from your article- "Countless Elk have been successfully harvested with the .243." Looks like some people don,t read articles about minimum foot pounds of energy and ballistic profiles they just go out and kill elk with guns that they aren't supposed to be able to kill an elk with. Some people just kill stuff and others sit at home and tell people what they should or shouldn't do based on some article they pulled up on their computer. I think I'll be in the former group. And Topgun I think you should read some articles on exterior ballistics you might learn something useful and you won't look so stupid next time you try to explain it to someone.
 
Apexmtman---Funny how you picked out just one short sentence in that lengthy article to try and contradict what I've stated. How about the rest of what were mountains of information and ballistics tables in that article that back up what I and others are saying about the .243 on elk.

elk_hunter---If you would take the time to read the article and look at the ballistics tables at the bottom of the article, you would see that it pretty much agrees with what I and others have been saying about the .243 on elk.

Hope everyone has a Blessed Christmas! Everyone up here in MI will because the Lions clinched a playoff spot today!!!
 
I'll have to agree with Apex on this one. Can't say I read the whole article but skimmed through it. Everyone has their own opinion on things. Mine is .243 is good enough for anything in the lower 48 with correct bullet and placement.

I wish I had the right twist for the 115 grain in .243 now that would be a he** of a round!!

B.C. on that is outa this world for the sierras! Even 107's would be great!
 
Being raised in a hunting family on the western slope of CO, the 30/30 lever action is the go to gun for my father and uncle when their not using the smoke poles. My dad uses a marlin, and my uncle a winchester, and yes there are some heated arguments between the two as to which gun is best! They like to brush-pop in the oaks and pinyon. If you are an elk within 100 yards of either of them, you are in some serious trouble! Open sight lever action is a potent little combo in that kind of terrain. I was more of a .308 win guy and that was my go to for elk. The .243 is what all of us started out with as youngsters as this was the hand me down first rifle for my brothers and I. Lot of critters hit the dirt with that gun. And to top it off, this was before all the bullet options that are out today were real popular, and even if they were, my father would have had us throw rocks before he shelled out the cash for a premium bullet. We shot old remington core-loks. Now I know that the Core-loks don't kill anything now a days according to some, but back in the day they sure did.


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243 not big enough? people been killin elk with bow and arrow for 1000's of years. u white guys are killing me
 
I love the "perfect bullet placement" guys. I've been hunting elk for 30 years. If I had to wait for "perfect bullet placement" on every bull I killed, like I said, a bunch of tags would go in the garbage. Sometimes, driving big bullets through bone and quartering shots are a reality. Couple that with climbing mountains and the general exitement and your "perfect shot placement" goes right out the window. I have a .243. I don't hunt elk with it, and neither will my kids. Just because a cartridge meets the qualifications of some chart or gun writer, doesn't make it an acceptable cartridge for elk hunting. Pasture shooting, maybe. mtmuley
 
Don't ever try bow hunting then mtmuley if bullet placement seems to be such a problem.


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A .243 is the best coyote gun around in my opinion. I would not tust it for elk. I'm a .30 cal fan for elk, but like whats been said fifty times on this thread shot placement is always the key to success.






Watch your top knot
 
Darktimber, We are talking about guns and bullets here. Get it? Nowhere did I say I had a "problem" with bullet placement. It isn't always perfect in the hunting world. Shot placement is the main thing. Some cartridges have an advantage where placement is concerned. Stick with sticks. mtmuley
 
Oh, I get it. If the shot isn't guaranteed a clean, ethical shot, you don't take it. Period. Guns or arrows, it's the same thing. I hunt with both. I know both rather well. I guess next time instead of running all over the mountains trying to get that perfect shot I'll just try to put one through the guts with my ultra and hope it finds its mark. Always wanted to try a Texas heart shot to. Should work right?? Heck, might as well. That way I can just lean out the truck window and not worry about doing all that work lining up the perfect shot. Wouldn't want to eat a tag. Hey look, I see just his neck behind that cedar. What the heck, I got my ultra, I'm going for it! Then in a week you get the thread on the forum about somebody looking for their animal. PLEASE HELP ME FIND MY BULL! And you think you have any argument to stand on about shot placement. Its laughable at best that argument. A hunter that chooses his shot and makes it count would not have a problem ever with a .243 or any other caliber for that matter. Is there much better elk rounds out there? You bet. You gotta now your limits and take the right shot always, no matter what you shoot. I'm just saying don't bash someone for choosing a legal elk round to take hunting. Personally,I would rather see more people taking their time with a .243 than slinging 750 grains out of a .50 BMG at 800 yards and crossing their fingers.


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