Season setting meetings.......

[SMOKESTICK]

Has anyone been able to attend any of the season setting meetings in Wyoming?

I was wondering what you thought about G&F proposals related to mule deer and the Wyoming Range.

 

[ridgerunner]

What were the proposals?

 

[rumproast]

Couldn't make the one here in Gillette this past week.

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

Very curious the proposal for the Wyo. Range as well

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[SMOKESTICK]

I have heard about several different concepts being tossed around to help recover mule deer on the Wyoming Range. The concepts I have heard about are: shortening seasons, cutting non-resident licenses, antler point restrictions, implementing some kind of quota.

I have also been told that some strong statements are being made by G&F personnel that they are vehemently opposed to any kind of quota system. Some have stated they will quit the department should a quota system be implemented. Others have claimed they would prefer a two day season rather then implementing a quota system. These are just a few things I have heard. I am interested in recovering mule deer populations but must admit I am perplexed about such opposition to some ideas being floated. It seems odd that one of the best state wildlife management agencies is so opposed to some tools being implemented to recover mule deer in SW WY.

 

[BuzzH]

I attended the one in Laramie.

Its funny how the FIRST and ONLY suggestions the Dept. and Smokestick are supporting is to somehow limit opportunity through short seasons, limited quota areas, antler point restrictions, etc.

I have a better idea, how about limiting access? Gate more roads, restrict fat-a$$ed atvers, etc.

The people that do most of the griping about quality of mule deer hunting in Wyoming have a machine glued to their ass. For the hunters willing to actually HUNT for mule deer, there is fantastic hunting. All you have to do is be willing to put some effort in.

Create more wilderness areas, more primitive areas, and severely limit motorized travel and there will be even more areas, and even more opportunity for even better hunting. And you can do that without going to limited quota, antler point restrictions, limited quota areas or reducing NR hunting opportunities.

I DO NOT support reducing non-resident opportunity in Wyoming while not limiting residents. Thats just not fair. If the mule deer are hurting that bad...the pain should be shared equally between Residents and Non-Residents.

 

[huntin100]

Wondering how cutting non resident permits, but having non cap or restriction on the number of resident permits would help the deer herds???????? If the division really wants to help the deer herd, they will be open minded and see what has worked in other states like, Colorado and Nevada.

 

[onthehunt]

Don't worry about reducing non-resident tags. The Wy.G&F is only concerned about how much revenue they can pull in each year! If the tags are reduced in 1 area they will be increased in many others to over compensate.
Thats how iv'e seen it for many years.

 

[SouthernWyo]

For once, I agree 100% with Buzz. Count me among the many that are totally opposed to implementing limited quota tags throughout the Wyoming Range, regions G and H. There are plenty of limited quota areas throughout the state. Limiting quotas in Regions G and H will only compound crowding issues in the remaining general areas in Wyoming. I also agree that limiting motorized access will do wonders for trophy quality, but that won't make it any easier to kill a trophy buck so the majority of "hunters" will probably hate that idea.

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

As much as I hate the people glued to the ATV as much as the next, I personally would be opposed to shutting off more and more country permanately. Also, I think "Wildnerness Areas" are a joke. I was born and raised in Wyoming, spent 2/3rds of my life there, yet now have to have a guide to hunt in the back country that I might know better than the guide?!?!

Access is a huge battle with road closures that take away public access to our public lands. R.S. 2477 is the perfect example. Seasonal closures might not be bad, e.g. leave some of the high country open in the summer for camping and recreation. I know this happens now and works great in areas I'm familiar with. Still, other issues are being ignored.

SW's Wyo's deer habitat has been ignored for so long that it's going to take years to rebuild it. The elk are flat running over the deer on the winter grounds in extreme SW Wyo. The trend began many years ago and it amazes me the blunt stubborness to admit they have a problem in SW Wyo. I wonder if any of the proposals will actually happen? It sure has been sad to see such an awesome mule deer herd slowly withered to nothing as the Wyo. G&F ignores the problem. Can it be saved? I hope so!

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[BuzzH]

It doesnt have to be classified wilderness to limit access (primitive areas, gate closures, or like you mentioned seasonal closures).

I agree with you that the law regarding wilderness is a joke in Wyoming. That said, its large areas of roadless or limited access country that hold the best chance at a big mule deer on public lands.

I dont waste my time hunting anywhere near the fat-assed atv crowd...and for that I've been rewarded with some really good bucks.

There are 380,000 miles of roads on National Forest land...thats way, way, way too much. The BLM has even more than that...in particular with all the new oil and gas development.

There is no question...NO QUESTION...that increased access equals less quality mule deer on public lands. Less deer equals less opportunity.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

Buzzed,

Just to clear things up; neither WY SFW or the WY G&F Department are necessarily supporting the points I mentioned. Re-read what I posted again. I stated that those were some of the things I have heard being discussed.

I only wanted to stimulate the debate and see what others thought. There are many ways to skin a cat, I was only stating what options I have heard about, hoping that others would through out some other ideas.

You might be surprised to learn that I don't disagree with a lot of what you have said. In fact, I share some of your concerns. Shortening season dates is unappealing to me. WY SFW has actually talked about trying to get a better idea on the number of residents which are hunting regions G & H as we agree that simply cutting non-residents doesn't appear to be fair, nor does it appear to be working.

Mule deer do need to be able to escape from hunting pressure. There is no doubt that the more access we have, the greatly likelihood that a deer may evase one hunter only to bump into another hunter. This is one concern I have about reducing the number of days. If it only concentrates the number of hunters and doesn't reduce their numbers, logic dictates that the escape ability of mule deer is reduced. If you are trying to recuit more deer into the population, particularly older age class bucks, it seems counter productive to me.

I know that in areas around where I live, in a short order, older age class bucks are beginning to return with road closures and/or some kind of travel restrictions. I do believe that SW Wyoming, by and large, is so open that mule deer escape ability is low to begin with. I have an older friend that grew up hunting SW Wyoming before all of the roads where put in place. I know that he continues to tell me that he believes that is why we no longer see the size of the deer that was once commonplace.

If you wanted to know my bias, it would be to implement a particular average age of harvest for the region or herd unit and let the data determine what we need to do. Until we get something that can be measured and quantified, I don't believe we will know whether or not our actions are moving us towards or away from our objectives. The only problem that I have is that I am unsure as to what the specific objectives are. It appears to me that many (some) are not happy with the qunatity nor the quality of deer they are finding in SW Wyoming.

I believe more debate is needed as I don't know that we (hunters) know exactly we (hunters) want.

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

Why not manage then to the one piece of the puzzle they have control of? The number of hunters in the field chasing deer.
Simply put, issues like access/roads are topics that extend the G&F's reach and effect more than just hunters. They will never be able to control that beast. Season length, as mentioned, still keeps the numbers of hunters in the field. Bottomline- like it or not- the number of hunters chasing deer is the only way to limit the number of deer killed. I'm not committed either way because pros/cons exist with that solution, but, it's hard to argue against a system like Colorado's. Hunters still have plenty of opportunity and quality is awesome right now. Nothing wrong with having to choose where you hunt to get some quality back.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[Skunkterd]

As a Wyoming resident I will be the first to admit that resident hunting does need to be limited.

Remember you can $hit the tourist but there is no $hitting skunk $hit

 

[ICMDEER]

Amazing; for once I agree with Skunk. And Southern, where the heck are all of those limited quota areas? Wyoming actually has very few, especially compared to other states.

I went to the meeting in Wheatland last week. The G&F guys there did not have any idea about western Wyoming. I asked and they did not know.

I've said it several times on MM; until G&F implements limited quotas in western Wyoming, I wont't go back. I hunted there in the 70's, 80's and 90's and the decline is staggering. Numbers of serious hunters is the primary reason for this decline. Funny how we hear about drought, roads, etc, but the real reason is more serious hunters that are better equipped and more dedicated to whacking a big buck. I guess you need 30 years of looking to notice that fact.

That country could be a crown jewel of mule deer hunting. Too bad the management is substandard. And yes, somthing like Colorado or Nevada would be a HUGE improvement.

 

[BuzzH]

Oddnut1,

I agree with your post that the only thing the G&F has total control over is the number of hunters.

That said, they can still cooperate with the BLM, USFS, and State lands office to limit access.

I dont see much cooperation between the WY G&F and other agencies. They could do more, but I agree that you cant blame the G&F on all the access issues. However, they do have a much better chance of influencing the BLM and FS than the average guy.

The reason I dont want to see any more limited quota areas in Wyoming is because who gets to hunt and who doesnt should not come down to who is lucky in the draw.

Once you start down the limited quota path, there is no going back. You increase pressure from areas that were once general to the remaining general areas. Then those areas have to be limited quota areas...then pretty quick you're hunting deer once every 10 years (if you're lucky in the draw).

There are things to try, that HAVE NOT been tried, before we make the whole state limited quota.

Not to mention that a majority of resident hunters really dont care if they kill a big buck or not and are being steam-rolled by trophy hunters. All management does not have to be dominated by managing for 180 class bucks. Most are content just having the opportunity to hunt. The whole state doesnt need to be managed just to feed the egos of trophy hunters.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

I agree that we need to look at all of the options available before a decision is made. That is one reason that I have been trying to stimulate debate.

I do find it interesting that residents accept a statewide draw for pronghorn, yet some struggle with possibility of two regions being placed into some kind of quota system.

If residents deer hunters are not inflicting too much pressure on regions G & H, then it would seem unlikely that very many resident deer hunters would be displaced to other herd units, causing them to suffer the same fate or leading to a statewide drawing for mule deer.

On the other hand, if resident deer hunting pressure within regions G &H exceeds the ability to maintain both quality and quantity of mule deer within the regions do we continue to sacrifice both quality and quantity?

I agree that most Wyoming hunters are more interested in their elk hunting opportunities then chasing mule deer. I also know that some areas of western Wyoming have grown substantially over the last 10 years. Furthermore, a lot of that growth has been people from outside the state that I would classify as mule deer nuts. These "deer nuts" are obsessed with killing trophy class mule deer. That isn't a bad thing, but if those numbers have increased as much as I am being told, therein may lie the problem.

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

Great points guys! It's good to hear people care about this deer herd. I worry it's forgotten about and sounds like it is in other parts of the state.

Just like in so many states it boils down to opportunity vs. quality. Personally, I'm horribly on the fence on this issue. I don't say that as to avoid "picking one", it's more because I grew up in SW Wyo. and the tradition of hunting, elk camp, the typical "good ol' days stuff" means alot to me. It was a family event- heck- we had a hunting holiday in school! They are the experiences that made me the avid hunter/outdoorsman I am today. Now as I'm older, I want quality, problem is, my son starts hunting this year with my other one next year. I really want him to experience what I did and worry this lack of opportunity is hurting our youth. It's by no means the only thing hurting our future hunters, but it's a factor.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[ICMDEER]

I don't see the option of not hunting being realistic for Wyoming residents in the near future. Look at Colorado, both residents and nonresidents can hunt deer there every year. You just won't have a quality license every year. Or you may have to hunt with a muzz or a bow. But you can always hunt.

And I do not see any Wyoming residents that can't hunt an antelope every year, even with area management. You may not draw the Red Desert every year, but there are many areas where residents can have a very good antelope hunt in a second choice area. Same for elk.

That's one of the primary reasons that I still choose to live in Wyoming. We have many opportunities for numerous species. But G&F could do so much to enhance mule deer management. They are stuck in the paradigm of "that's the way it has always been." It's going to change some day, but as I said, I may not live long enough to see meaningful change.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

ODDNUT1,

I share your conerns. I look back at the reasons I hunt today and it had nothing to do with "trophy" animals. In fact, I am concerned that if too much emphasis is given to trophy hunting, hunting as we knew it will cease. I myself prefer to trophy hunt, but I enjoy being able to get together with friends and family as well. Some of the most memorable hunts were shared with others.

I don't believe we should have to settle for yearling bucks nor does that mean that everywhere needs to be managed for trophy animals.

 

[BuzzH]

Smokestack,

We already have what you're suggesting above in every general unit.

If hunters want to work a bit, there are mature bucks on public land in general units in Wyoming. The last 3 years myself and two friends have killed bucks in general units on public lands scoring 173 6/8, 184 7/8, 193 and change, and 196 and change.

Just because the atvers arent killing them...doesnt mean they arent there.

 

[YH]

I agree with a lot that has been said above.

In most areas if you close down roads it helps a lot. But I do not think that will help as much in G and H as it would somewhere else. The reason I think this is because there are more hunters that are willing to hunt hard now than there was 15-20 years ago. If you go in the highcountry in G or H there are just as many people as there are in the areas that have roads everywhere. Not to mention that every year there seems to be 3-4 new outfitting/guide services that sprout up. What pisses me off is how all the resident hunters ##### about all the non residents. I think the damage is coming from unlimited # of residents in these two regions. I think that we should limit resident hunters in these two regions. I thought I would never say/type that in my life. It makes me sad to even think that these two areas have came down to even considering this.

It used to be that you could hike back and get away from the majority of the hunters. Its not possible in G any more and it gets worse in H every year. Buzz you are lucky down where you live that you can. As you already know keep that a secret. I have a friend in Cheyenne that kills great bucks down that direction every year too. He said he doesn't have to contend with the outfitters or anyone else if he just goes "deep and steep".

Last year I went 14 miles back in one way in the wilderness below yellowstone national park. I couldn't believe the amount of hunters. There were also a lot of non residents w/o guides there too. I didn't care because I agree, its a BS law. I can't turn someone in that is willing to work that hard to hunt.

There are still great bucks in G and H, not as many but they are still there. It used to be you just had to go far back to find them, now its more like just finding the one little pocket that people keep missing. I think more of the bigger bucks are getting shot closer to the roads than way back there. Just out of range of the fat ass atver's and not far enough out there for the extreme hunters/outfitters to get them.

Its going to be interesting to see what happens (or doesn't).

 

[nontypical]

The "mule Deer Initiative" meetings are being held across the state later this month(26& 27)at various locations.Whatever your opinions are,maybe all concerned should attend the meeting closest to them.All of you have valid points.Somewhere in there is a compromise.Buzz seems to be the only one who doesn't want some kind of change.Jim(ICMDEER) and I remember how it once was.Sadly,we will never see those days again;but we can most assuredly see better days than what we have now.Interestingly,no one has mentioned predation as a possible reason for low deer numbers.My belief is this is a VERY important factor,perhaps THE most important(although G&F would never agree with that view).Studies done in other states(3-Bar study,Az)have shown that predation was the determining factor in fawn survival;more so than drought(habitat conditions).I'm aware of a government trapper that has caught over 350 coyotes in a 30 day period with snares in one small section of a unit in SW Wy.Trust me,they weren't just snacking on rabbits.I'm really glad to see some dialog started about this,because I see it as a huge problem.

 

[ICMDEER]

YH and Nontypical,

You guys are on track. I can remember the first few years I seriously went into the Greys and I would rarely see another person. I'd go a full week and maybe see 1-3 people and they might be distant. The last time I went way back in, I saw 14 people the opening morning. It's crazy and needs some management.

And Cliff's right, predators are big issue. I asked at the G&F meeting last week if it might be possible to trap mountain lions in Wyoming. The biologist said he's never really considered that question. All I can say is that with our winds and snow conditions, it's real tough to kill lions with hounds in SE Wyoming. I lease a mule deer place in SW Texas and they have pretty good results trapping lions there. There will be lion meetings around Wyoming in the next few months, so plan to go and provide input.

This is good discussion. Not sure we can ever all agree, but it is really good to hear from others about their situations and desires. Good stuff.

 

[Longun]

I just put info on the open house I attended in Kemmerrer and Pinedale on the General hunting lobby. Didn't see this forum discussion until afterward.

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-07 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]Along the lines of predation...I also havent seen much mentioned about POACHING.

I think this is a huge problem in Wyoming and we all need to be helping LEO's with this.

Cases like DK are not uncommon at all and these type of poachers have a huge impact on mule deer populations and hunter opportunity. Its tough to hunt big bucks that have already been poached.

No question predation is a problem, but predators take what they can...including nice bucks. Poachers select the best of the best and that really takes a heavy toll on quality animals and older age class bucks.

Increasing the number of wardens and turning in any suspected poachers would make a difference.

I also think there are compromises out there for mule deer management and I also believe changes will happen. Its just important to keep in mind that changes have consequences that may or may not achieve the desired goal.

Another item that was mentioned but just in passing is the number of outfitters. Its funny how the FIRST thing mentioned is to limit either NR hunter numbers and Resident hunters, but not limit the number of outfitters working an area. Funny how that works?

If mule deer are in such bad shape then everyone should have to be limited, including the number of hunters outfitters and guides take as well as the total number of outfitters operating in a given area.

I about guarantee that outfitter numbers will not be limited if G&H go draw only.

Outfitters have a significant impact on mule deer, but somehow thats never brought up very often.

 

[nontypical]

Excellent point,Buzz.I stated my opinions on the poaching issue in a previous thread.Bigger fines,vehicle confiscation(as well as all other items used in the poaching),loss of privileges,JAIL TIME,perhaps even making it a felony,so that potential poachers lose firearm privileges.I've said it before,it's my belief that there are as many(if not more)trophy size animals taken illegally as there are legally.As far as the outfitter issue,also a good point.No offense to Jim,nor the outfitter I guide for,but it seems this industry has very little regulation for numbers.It seems that years ago,each outfitter had a specific area.Anyone wanting to guide there had to pretty much buy out that guy.Any info on that,Jim?Now,we even have nonresident outfitters,and they can guide wherever they want.I would bet that more liberal predator control,along with harsher poaching penaltied and control would make an immediate impact on numbers and quality.

 

[ICMDEER]

I agree with the outfitter concern. Thirty years ago, the Greys had very few outfitters. In the 80's the numbers started to increase. When I quit going in the late 90's, there were outfitter camps all over. Numbers of outfitters are limited in many U.S. Forest Service forests. But they are not limited on private, BLM, state or several other forests.

I'm an outfitter, and I can not see limiting outfitters on private lands. But a number or system to limit numbers on public lands seems appropriate and works well in many areas.

I have to plead a bit of ignorance here, so if ther's another outfitter from western Wyoming, please speak your peace.

I'm not convinced poaching is a major problem in eastern Wyoming because it nearly all private lands. But I agree that it is a major issue in public land areas. Good discussion.

 

[BuzzH]

ICMDEER,

I disagree with this: "I'm not convinced poaching is a major problem in eastern Wyoming because it nearly all private lands."

I assure you it is.

Its even easier to poach on private lands...you'd be surprised how much BS goes on in Horse Creek, around Lusk, Newcastle, etc.

If theres big bucks available the poachers will work them, what difference does it make to a guy that has decided to poach if its on private land or not?

 

[Triple_BB]

I'm headed to tonights meeting in Casper. My main purpose is to let them know that SFW Wyoming doesn't represent me or speak on my behalf when it comes to hunting in Wyoming. If you can't make the meetings, I'd encourage you folks to write and let the G & F know the same. We can do without another pro-outfitter/ag industry group masquerading as a common man's hunting organization.

The address is WY G & F Attn: Regulations, 3030 Energy Lane, Casper, WY 82604.

 

[YH]

"Along the lines of predation...I also havent seen much mentioned about POACHING.

I think this is a huge problem in Wyoming and we all need to be helping LEO's with this.

Cases like DK are not uncommon at all and these type of poachers have a huge impact on mule deer populations and hunter opportunity. Its tough to hunt big bucks that have already been poached.

No question predation is a problem, but predators take what they can...including nice bucks. Poachers select the best of the best and that really takes a heavy toll on quality animals and older age class bucks.

Increasing the number of wardens and turning in any suspected poachers would make a difference.

I also think there are compromises out there for mule deer management and I also believe changes will happen. Its just important to keep in mind that changes have consequences that may or may not achieve the desired goal.

Another item that was mentioned but just in passing is the number of outfitters. Its funny how the FIRST thing mentioned is to limit either NR hunter numbers and Resident hunters, but not limit the number of outfitters working an area. Funny how that works?

If mule deer are in such bad shape then everyone should have to be limited, including the number of hunters outfitters and guides take as well as the total number of outfitters operating in a given area.

I about guarantee that outfitter numbers will not be limited if G&H go draw only.

Outfitters have a significant impact on mule deer, but somehow thats never brought up very often."
--------------------------------------------------

Well said Buzz. I was trying to say a lot of that but it doesn't come out as good as when you type it lol. Thanks.

I would love to see the number of outfitters regulated. It's kinda like Mossback in UT. Seems live everyone and their dog is a guide/outfitter now.

Poaching is at an all time high too like Buzz mentioned. Max fines, more wardens etc would help a lot, 'nuff said.

This has been a good thread, that damn bobcat has stayed out of it hahahhaha

Ernesto Lopez

 

[rumproast]

The poaching in NE Wyo nowadays is the worst the wardens have seen--that's pretty bad, it's always been prevalent here.
The large tracts of private allow for a LOT of untagged, undetected kills. That's gone on since Thag the Caveman days.
Lot of 'good ol' boys' don't bother getting a license.
Any different anywhere else?
The methane boom has accounted for a disproportionate increase in poaching in the areas where the fields are being put in.
Yup, methane's brought all kinds of pigs.
Lots of animals shot and left to rot, too.

Increasing the number of wardens--there are 50 in Wyo--would take an act of Congress. The Leg. would have to vote it in, after it escapes committee, after the G & F commission gives it their royal thumbs-up, justifying the expenditure, blah, blah, blah.
They do get stretched thin at times, but I've never seen guys who can be in three places at once like Wyo game wardens. Six places at once if you count during hunting season!!!

 

[ICMDEER]

Maybe I'm just naive, but I lease over 100,000 acres and as far as I know, the landowners are on it every day. My guides and I are the places routinely. We trap, hunt coyotes, take pics, etc. We don't see any poaching. I own land and I did see one poached buck on the neighbors over a decade ago. Yes, there are some guys around Cheyenne (Horse Creek) as mentioned, but in our country, we keep a pretty close watch and have NEVER seen any evidence of poaching on our leases. There are a few bucks by the roads, but most are off the roads a distance. The poachers would have to go through gates, leave tracks, etc.

We do have problems with trespassers during the season, but that's another issue. It's a major issue, but it is not what I think you guys are thinking - like winter range poaching.

I stay pretty close to home and watch what we have. We don't have any oil or gas wells in the county, so no influence of that activity. Maybe I'm missing something.