3 point or better

R

Rammu

Guest
Just out of curiosity.. On the general deer hunts why would it not make sense to enforce a 3 point or better policy? I think back to the areas that once had this policy and it worked great in my opinion. Whats are your takes on this? Im speaking in regards to Utah..
 
It didnt work. People shot too many 2pts and left them. Talk to someone that hunted the bookcliffs when it was 3pt or better, it was a sad deal.
 
I have talked to several DWR biologists about this and they all seem to think it is a REALLY BAD idea... I liked the idea until I talked to them.. I dont remember all of their reasons why they wouldnt work but they seemed to work...
 
I used to hunt the Fishlake when it was three point or better. Those were the best hunting days I"ve seen. This five day hunt is short, but I think it is producing bigger bucks.
 
Three point or better ruined the Bookcliffs. There were too many 2pts killed and left, but that wasn't the biggest problem. Making it 3 pt or better made it seem like it was a trophy area and the hunting pressure increased and everybody and their dog went hunting out there, Then when they opened it back up to any buck - it was a slaughter.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Too many unresponsible hunters!!

Work to hunt!! Live to hunt!! And the rest spent keeping the wife happy!!
 
>Making it 3 pt or
>better made it seem like
>it was a trophy area
>and the hunting pressure increased
>and everybody and their dog
>went hunting out there, Then
>when they opened it back
>up to any buck -
>it was a slaughter.
>

According to a biologist I interviewed for a news story a few years ago, there was an unusual population explosion in the Bookcliffs in the 60's and 70's. The area was just chockfull of deer and the hunting was always good. Then, they put it on a 3 point or better unit in the late 80's, and as Roy said, hunting pressure increased alot, esp. when they took it off 3 point or better. The year they opened it up back to any buck it was a total slaughter out there. Practically every camp tagged out (and we're talking large family group camps...not 3 or 4 bucks but 20 or more bucks per camp). Then, there was really heavy winter kill followed by severe drought and higher predation rates. They factored in all of those conditions to explain the drop off in numbers. It wasn't blamed on hunting alone.

It was really disheartening to see the deer numbers drop so drastically in the mid 90's. Maybe we were spoiled by all the good years though. We were used to seeing deer everywhere out there and all of a sudden...nothing. The Books were always good for a fun hunt filled with alot of shooting opportunities and I guess that's how it's being managed now.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-07 AT 09:12PM (MST)[p]Yup! Kinda the same thing happened in So. Utah. The DWR closed the Bumblebee Unit for 5 years. They did LE draws on the unit for a couple of years after that. The hunters took some trophy bucks. Then for some unknown reason (at least by me) the DWR opened the unit up to a general draw. "It was a freak'n slaughter" In one year this unit went from "Premium to Nothing" I'm not kidding.

My opinion! (which means absolutley nothing) The DWR is taking credit for the Huge Elk in Utah which 'they' have nothing to do with. 'They' have ignored the mule deer herd long enough that it's becoming a joke!

Whew! I'm tired!

RUS
 
>Two point or smaller works well.
>For who, little gitrls and old men?


Eric

Ultra liberal, wolf loving, illiterate, gay, hippie midgets on crack piss me off!!!!

deerline.gif
 
personally i dont think the three point rule is affective at all, if you look at a populations structure you dont want to target a certain age group or it will put the population out of wack you need a healthy balance of old and young, instead of only targeting the older ones, or just the young ones, just my 2 cents though
 
Rammu-
AMEN on the antler point restriction, but i'm afraid they will never bring it back.
I had this same post a few months back after the general deer hunt was over. I was sickened by the amount of young forkies that i saw taken in the south eastern region.
I was hunting the Henry's and Book Cliff's back when the original 3 point or better was in place, and i was also on the Henry's the year they opened it up to any buck, it was sickening what i was seeing being killed, and it wiped out those ranges to the point that they were both closed. They said at the time there were too many two points being shot and left....well, look how many are being shot now.....almost all of them. Now i can respect that there are a lot of hunters out there that will take any size buck for meat and the antler point restriction kept a few freezers empty, but here's MY question-
"Why can't we make a few areas 3 point or better and leave some without"? That way the meat hunters can have an option and the trophy hunters can have their options as well. I presented that at a rac meeting once and they said there are not enough officers in each reagion to enforce and patrol it.
In my opinion....i would like to see each region broke down into areas that have antler point restrictions, and portions of them that do not. Look at the south eastern for example. How many mtn ranges are in it? Take at least two of them and put the restrictions on them, leave the others open, that way everybody wins.
 
If a herd is ever going to reach it's genetic potential, it has to be diverse and that means having a good distribution of all ages of animals. 3 point or better left a lot of big 2 points dead in the bushes, and had the smaller 2 points and spikes doing the breeding for the herd. Enough of the older bucks are killed that eventually the herd is devistated. When the "Books" was 3 point or better my neighbor and all his buddies hunted it. They brought back truck loads of basket head 3 and 4 points and not a single trophy in the bunch.

Even though it sounds like a good idea, It's Not! IMHO
 
That's too bad......here in WA. the 3pt. or better law has done nothing but helped the heards.....in my opinion. I don't call biologists and get numbers, I don't have the energy, but talk to just about any WA guy and they'll tell ya the same thing. I hope the don't ever get rid of it.

To say that it doesn't work because there are too many 2pts. killed is ridiculous. I found 2pts. laying in the woods the first year or two as well. But, those still would have been shot if it wasn't 3pt. or better. The only tragedy in it is that they were wasted.

I could only imagine what the Cliffs were like before the "slaughters."
 
A couple of years ago Washington offered a youth hunt open to any buck (Eastern) normally three point or better. At first I thought this was a fantastic idea to get more kids involved in hunting. In reality what I saw was a total slaughter. There was one camp that had fourteen kids in camp, and fourteen deer hanging. When my son was talking to a couple boys they let slip that their Dad and Uncle shot all but two. But they were not suposed to tell anyone. It really was sickening to see how many camps were taking advantage of this by bringing any youth who passed a hunter safety coarse and had a tag to fill. This meat market hunt mentality I believe caused a serious decrease in the deer available in the area, and it may never recover back to the numbers before the hunt.

There are only two types of people - The Hunters and the hunted,
I hunt.
Alchase
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-07 AT 12:52PM (MST)[p]Well said muleyslyr, and i agree on the two point's being shot and left. Whether they are shot to be wasted or not, they are still deleted from the herd whether they are left in the sage brush as coyote meat or in someone's freezer, they are still gone. Now that they are legal, many many more young bucks are taken from the herd, versus the mistakenly killed one's. And as far as "back in the old day's" of the books, yes there were a lot of "basket heads" being taken, but people were happy with that, they were killing "descent" deer. How many "truck loads of basket heads" do you see now coming off of general season areas now days? When i drive around looking at hunt camps, i mostly see little fork horns hanging that used to be protected.
A "basket head 3 or 4 point" IS a trophy to some hunters.
And for every basket head that someone shoots, it ups the odds for one more older buck to survive by taking that one hunter out of his equation.
 
Would if the close it down to draw only for a coupla' years? Give out 100 tags, or whatever. Or would that start a riot? :) Just seems too bad to hear such a great area in the kind of shape it's in.
 
It is a limited entry now, but with a couple hundred tags (or more), but for some reason it just didn't recover from the earlier years. I'm quite sure people aren't slaying the two points now due to the limited entry, but a 150-160 is about as good as it gets other than an occasional 180 or better.
 
"And for every basket head that someone shoots, it ups the odds for one more older buck to survive by taking that one hunter out of his equation."

Doesn't that same principle hold true for a 2 point or a spike?

The point is if only older bucks are legal then there is MORE pressure on older bucks and fewer make it past the basket head stage.
The 3 point or better laws arn't on the books in Utah any more because they didn't help the deer herd and don't make biological sense.
 
littlebighorn, let me ask you this?
Were you here hunting in Utah back when the point restrictions were in place? It was nothing short of fantastic!
MY point is, there were "basket heads" hanging in most camps anywhere those restrictions were in place, i did it, i saw it, i lived it. I see what those places are like now and they suck for the most part compared to when those were in place.
These two points are young and dumb and don't have the sense to "run and hide" when opening morning hits them like a cluster bomb. I have personally, and know countless others that used to let small three's and four's go because we KNEW we would see a better buck as the days go by. Now days it's a contest to see who own's the bragging rights in camp for the biggest two point!!
And if it's such a bad thing, why do so many other states still have it in place after all these years?
The math seems simple too me, you save a two point, chances are he's a three or small four the following year. And the more disciplined hunters could pass those "basket heads" to hunt a "trophy" buck, and that lets the basket head live another year.
As it stands now, not too many people will pass on those two points, it's usually all they'll see anyway in an open area.
But what do i know, i'm just an armchair biologist like most of us are.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-01-07 AT 01:53PM (MST)[p]For the record slamdunk, I am a lifelong resident who started hunting Utah in the 60s. I have seen the glory days (and they weren't during 3 point or better years)and yes people even shot 2 points back then. But we always saw huge bucks as well because the herds were healthy and diverse. Because of that, I have a hard time seeing a basket head as being anything different than a two point (1 year in age).
As I said before pressure on the bucks that are supposed to mate and poduce healthy offspring isn't the answer. Oh by the way, I minored in Biology in college. But what do I know anyway?
 
littlebighorn-
I can appreciate your views on the old days compared to today, but there were nowhere near the amount of hunters or pressure on the bucks back in the 60's as there were in the 80 and early 90's when they lifted the restrictions, and today it's even worse. I don't know or can't actually have an educated guess as to what's happening with our deer here in Utah, but i have lived and been through both era's and today is much differen't than even 10-15 years ago. SOMETHING has changed, we can all agree with that, right?
I can't help but take myself back to the Henry Mountains that first year they lifted the 3 point restriction.....i was sick. That continued for about 3 more years until guess what happened....they closed it and the Book Cliff's due to "Low deer numbers". Now with both units being "limited entry" and both having trophy potential (more so with the Henry's) the herds and quality are as good as back in the old days. And i really doubt that too many two points are being shot voluntarily by the more "selective hunters" that apply and draw these areas. A hunter doesn't need to wait 10-13 years to draw a good tag and take a two point, he or she can go to any open area every year and get one of those.
 
Slammer, I couldn't agree more! Something has happened to our deer and none of us like it! It has wildlife biologists scratching their heads all over the west because things should be getting better, not worse.
My opinion is that herd health is key---habitat, diversity, weather conditions, etc. The Henrys are now healthy and producing great bucks. So are the Books. But if you increased the permit numbers things would change quickly, because the herd dynamics would change. Being selective is also key---look at the whitetail ranches in Texas. They manage their herds for health but they also require lots of does to be taken, so the herd doesn't get over balanced.
Everything I have read says that too much pressure on the older bucks leaves the yearlings to do all the breeding, and they aren't always capable of doing that. Unhealthy fawns and dry does cause the herd to decline. There is no doubt that you would see more big bucks, for a while, if 3 point or better restrictions were in place. But in the long run the herd would suffer, just like the Books and Henrys did. And when they are then forced to pull the restrictions, eveyone is sick with all the 2 points dropping. I don't pretend to have the answer, but I don't believe that antler restrictions are it.

You are passionate about your opinion and I respect that! I also respectfully disagree.
 
Thank you littlebighorn, and i totally respect you as well.
I can totally see what you are saying about the younger bucks left to do a lot of the breeding. That does infact, and has been proven to be less effective and unhealthy for herds of ANY species. I obviously don't have the right answer either and i'm not implying that the DWR were wrong in removing the restriction, it just "seem's" to me like it was the wrong decision because of what i saw, and can see today, but i may be totally off my rocker. (no, not rocking chair, i'm only 40! hahahaha) However, and with that being said, i would like to see them try it again in a few key "open areas" and give it a chance to really prove one way or the other what the long term affect would be. I know my 17 year old son would be inclined to let that two point go if he knew he had too. But for a young hunter, an easy opportunity is hard to pass up.
 
Another WA hunter weighing in with an opinion here guys but i would definitely have to say that the 3 point or better rule has definitely helped washingtons deer herds. The bucks are getting bigger every year because by the time these bucks get to be 3 points or better they are smart enough to outsmart the average hunters so more of them survive. They then pass on there genetics which creates better overall herd health i would say. Im only 23 years old but i remember back when i was just getting started hunting about 12 years ago before the 3 point minimum rule there were very few deer and there definitely werent any big bucks. so i say give it a try.
 
I really don't know anything about Washington's 3 point areas. I don't know how long they have been in existance, but I still believe the benefits are temporary. That is why most Western states have abandoned the idea.
Slammer, I kind of like the idea for maybe a strictly youth deer unit with those restrictions. Most kids have a hard time killing a buck anyway and giving them a chance at a smaller 4 point is an interesting thought.
I wish I had all the answers for the mule deer problems we are facing, because I would be a rich hero if I did. But deer hunting has long been a 4 point or better deal for me anyway and I rarely tag out. But I am still willing to leave the management ideas to the professionals, and hopefully they will eventually find the solutions.
 
although i wasn't necessarily meaning a "youth hunt", it's not a bad idea. What i was getting at is that when that little fork horn is standing right there off the road glaring at my 17 year old son who desperately wants to put the hammer to something, it's hard for him to "just say no". But if we were hunting a 3 point or better restriction, the law tells him "no". That in turn lets that buck go for another year to turn into a "basket head". At that point he either gets shot because he is legal, or he is one more year the wiser and may be able to be a better breeder come november if he survives. I'm not just implying that is the youth that is shooting the two points, many many adults enjoy it too. All i am implying is for a couple areas within our huge regions, have antler point restrictions for us guys who'd like to take a 3 or better.
littlebighorn, it's awesome that you are disciplined enough to set the 4 point goals for yourself and to stick with it year after year, but how many people do you know that "hold out till the last few days" and then shoot a young buck just to shoot one? That statement is a famous phrase here in Utah, no doubt about it. I'm like you, i can do it, but too many others simply cannot. I'm all for "any buck areas", but i personally would like to see a few areas within the general areas with some point restrictions for those of us who can't draw a tag in a limited area. But maybe you are right, the long term affect may not be too beneficial. But on a good note for me...i now have 12 bonus points for deer here in Utah....the Henry's are within my reach!!
 
Your 12 points are awesome Slamdunk! Hopefully you will have the hunt of your lifetime on the Henrys! And Soon!
How about I trade you my 12 elk points?
Actually the main reason I can hold out for bigger bucks is because I have killed my fill of forkys. I love to hunt big bucks and it's obsene that we have to wait 12-15 years for a good hunt! This year I am trying to cash in 13 points in Colorado in a unit that ain't all that good.(Lots of 170 class bucks). That just doesn't seem fair does it? I wish I had the answer.
Good luck to you and your son!
 
Thanks littlebighorn!!
Ya, my son drew one of those convention tags back in January at the Salt Palace. He drew one of four Book Cliffs muzzle loader deer tags (he better hold out this year, he just saved himself at least 10 years of applications!!) You have 12 elk points, that's awesome!! I guide for a very big outfitter, so i get plenty of awesome elk action every year, but i'd really like to take one home for a change! But unfortunately, the way the draws are set up now, i'll probably never see a good elk tag in my lifetime, but i WILL kill a good buck!
Good luck on your elk hunt when you draw!!
 
The primary reasons for 3-point or better restrictions is fewer bukcs being killed and bucks being allowed to mature before being hunted. I believe the more effective way to do this, is do what Colorado has done, restrict the number of bucks being killed. Lower the number of tags issued by half and watch the quick rebound of both quality and quanity. I keep hearing the term "age diversity", 15:100 buck:doe ratios will not give you a good distribution of ages in the buck populations. Older bucks are more effective at breeding as well, when the number of older bucks increase more does are bred during the early estrus cycle increasing fawn survival.

Habitat is still the primary factor in deer numbers being harmed in Utah, but by increasing the number of mature bucks in the herd thru limited harvest of bucks will HELP.

PRO
 
The reason why I wouldn't support the 3 point or better, I like the fact that most hunters will fill there tags the first weekend with a 2 point, puts less pressure on the bigger bucks, and when everyone else has packed up camp, I hunt.
If the rule was changed to 3 point or better then more people will hunt the bigger bucks, which is more pressure on mature bucks, and if we start restricting hunters it only gets worse, I think if we can keep the DWR from increasing tags then Utah is still heading the right way, they wanted to jump the gun this year and change the 5 day hunt in south and south eastern regions to a 9 day hunt and go back to having no deer. If we can continue to have wet years and good fawn production then things will get better, I have seen it improve slightly each year for the last 2-3 years, few more good years then we will be set, as long as they don't increase the tags, they should change the buck to doe ratio to 20:100 on general, and up it on the LE as well.
 
SLamdunk, are you being sarcastic or do you agree with what I have posted, hard to tell on this site sometimes people just want to argue.
 
Heaven's no i'm not being sarcastic.
If you have read all most replies to this topic, you'll see how sincere i am about MY points and views, but after talking to a couple others and opening my mind to what's being said, a lot of it makes total sense.
Although i'll stand firmly on my view that opening up those 3 point or better areas in the Henry's and Books totally wiped them out (only because i was there and witnessed it)i can see how your view of letting people shoot those easier, younger bucks will let the more mature ones survive and grow larger. And that, in theory, should make for a better, healthier herd......in the long run.
What i was talking about happened very quickly, within 3 seasons, but with your opinions and those of others that are similar, over time the age class should be better and i am open to that.
 
Here's another vote in favor of WA's 3-point minimum. It's done wonders for the number of bucks we see (both big and small), the success rate, and the size of the bucks. My recollection is the rule went into effect around 1996. The rule might not make sense for all states, but WA's got different issues than other western states - specifically, (i) a large/dense population of hunters and (ii) hunters who are adamant about having a statewide OTC rifle deer hunt.
 
I started hunting in WA in the 70's and here is what I have observed. I've seen improvement in the Mule Deer quality since the three point minimum restrictions. Blacktails on the otherhand I have not. Where I live, one side of the river is any buck (including spike), the other side of the river is a two point minimum. I don't understand the reasons for the distinction. I've seen just as many trophies taken from the "any buck" side as the "two-point minimum" side of the river. I guess I don't understand the reasoning.
 
The thing I don't understand about when People from Utah start talking about how terrible the 3 point or better progam was they never bring up the fact that during those years and the years after the division allowed there to be THOUSANDS of antlerless permits and with in a year or two they had taken the total number of deer down in the state dramatically.

The fact of the matter was people were screaming mad about the terrible doe to buck ratio in the state and 3-point or better was going to be the solution but after 3 short years they decided it would be better to just kill off all the does and that would solve the ratio problem. What a steller idea that was and here we sit 20 years later still feeling the effects of it.
In my opionion if the year after they open up the Book Cliffs groups of 20 hunters were tagging out it sounds to me like they should have let it go for a few more years and everyone would have been tagging out on good Mature deer.

Look at the facts
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-07 AT 04:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-08-07 AT 04:28?PM (MST)

balz-
That's a true statement!
That is EXACTLY what this state did to get the buck to doe ratio's in line. Not bring back bucks, but rather slaughter the doe's so it's matched up almost overnight!!
yep, facts are facts!!

But either way, no matter what caused what, we are all just armchair biologists and the DWR will do whatever they want to do...regardless.
 
Not to step on the three point issue, but one issue that also seems to have effected the Washington (Muleys) is the radical decrease in the buck brush over the last 5-10 years. I was comparing photos from the area I hunt above Pearygen Lake. In the pictures I have over the years, the buck brush has disappeared from the mountain. I know it grows very slowly, but what could be making such an impact? They do graze cattle in the area, does anyone know if cattle will feed on buck brush? My hunting partner and I believe this is a big factor in the muley population in the area. We still see deer in the valley and on other hills that still have buck brush. But they sure do not stay in any numbers like they use too where no buck brush exists anymore.


There are only two types of people - The Hunters and the hunted,
I hunt.
Alchase
 
I dont know about Utah but here in washington the number of big bucks has gone way up. I think people here are more careful about pulling the trigger on two points because if you turn somone in for poaching you get 10 points for special permit draws. When you are only getting 1 point per year 10 is huge.Plus any idiot can drive the roads and shoot A stupid spike or two point.I think it gives the young bucks A chance to see what huntin season is all about.
 
>I believe the more
>effective way to do this,
>is do what Colorado has
>done, restrict the number of
>bucks being killed. Lower the
>number of tags issued by
>half and watch the quick
>rebound of both quality and
>quanity.

I certainly don't doubt that's a more effective tool, and why most of the western states have gone that route. Problem is that WA hunters have been adamant about wanting statewide OTC rifle deer hunts. We only have a couple of muley units (Desert, Alkali/YTC and Quilomene) that don't have an OTC rifle deer season. And those units are virtually cover-less with relatively small numbers of deer with very good genetics - hence the need/desire to limit entry. Without the draw only tool at their disposal, the bios have had to fall back on the 3-point min. to limit harvest.
 
Actually even with the OTC mule deer hunts, the biologists wanted to go back to an "any buck" season, but too many hunters wanted to keep the 3 point minimum, so they did it to keep their customers happy.
 

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