Closing Spike elk hunts ?

N

nebo12000

Active Member
Messages
634
IF I can get some support from other RAC members I am going to propose that the DWR implement a program that would close Spike hunting every 5-7 or 3-5 years on every LE elk unit in the state. I would like to see a rotation so that every LE unit would save one generation of yearling bulls every 5-7 years. IMO I believe that doing so would increase the number of mature bulls available for 5-7 years without unduly tipping the bull/cow ratio unfavorabley in any one unit. I believe that it would make it possible for guys who have waited years to draw have an even better opportunity for a bull of a lifetime.
The sad fact is that there are some units that are experiencing only 60%-70% success on the rifle hunts and near 50% on archery and muzzleloaders. If we implemented this program, I think the DWR wouldn't constantly be decreasing/increasing LE bull tags in any one unit because of harvest age being too low or too high. I think this practice might level it off from year to year.They should sart witht he worst performing units.
Please give me some feed back on this--
Richard Hansen Central Region RAC member
 
I'm certainly not intimately familiar with all the units but on the Wasatch there is no shortage of branched antler bull. Plenty of spikes make it through to get just big enough to reach the "slot limit" size. There is no need to close the spike hunt at all.

My youngest daughter had a cow tag last year and we saw tons of bulls in November but we only saw a couple really good ones.

With that said, they are giving too many LE tags if it's a top tier bull that we're trying for but...... we know that the Wasatch is managed more for opportunity and less for quality so I suppose there's something for everyone.

Just my 2 cents,
Zeke
 
Only 60-70% success rate and only 50% success on archery????

I think it's the mentality that everyone that draws the tag should have an easy hunt for a 360 bull is what needs to change. Utah is the only state that puts the rifle tag in the dead of the rut and also has the highest success rate of any state. These 100% success rates are a joke. I support lower success rates with more tags given out. Put the rifle hunt in the middle of October like the rest of the states, lower the success rate to 50%, and give out 25% more tags. Heaven forbid anyone actually have to work for a big bull.
 
I agree Zeke, closing the spike hunt on the Wasatch would not make sense at all, there are so many bulls on that unit it is unreal. I cant speak much for other units, but I have been hunting the last week and have seen more branch antlered bulls and yearling bulls that are 2X2 or 2X3 than I have seen cows and spikes combined.

If people are not killing bulls on the LE rifle hunts it is not because they dont have a chance to, its because they are not finding a big enough bull and are not willing to shoot a sub 320 bull.

When you have a rut rifle hunt the majority of the top herd bulls get killed every year making it difficult to grow bulls over 320. The number of bulls to cows is already out of wack on most units why would you want to make the problem worse.
 
It's a known fact that at least 10% of the spikes on all units survive the hunts and become branch antlered bulls in the years to follow. I have yet to see ANY unit in Utah that needs more branch antlered bulls on it.
If anything, there is an overabundance of those bulls that aren't harvested. In fact and as we all should know, not all branch antlered bulls grow up to be "trophy bulls" and are sought after by hunters. Not that anyone here needs educated, but even a 6-7 year old bull can only have an antler score of 280-300 due to genetics. Why compound the problem of having more elk and more bulls? Each unit can only carry so many animals vs habitat and livestock, there has to be a balance. Growing more branch antlered elk isn't the answer.




avatar-1.png
 
Nebo 12000, I have been thinking of the exact same idea for a couple of years now. What if you had 4 units on a rotating basis, and one of the units were closed yearly. If the wasatch does not need to be included that would be okay. Here was my thinking. Say Panguitch lake, Beaver, Southwest desert and pahvant were all grouped together. All in a general proximity, so hunters could try the other unit if there unit was closed. Have them closed one at a time on a rotation basis. For example, Beaver closed this year and the other 3 open. then the next year close one of the other units to spike and leave 3 open. Every 4th year, all spikes on a unit would be saved and should enhance the trophy quality on those units. I think it is a great idea.
 
So didn't the WB just approve a butt load of new cow tags
because of range conditions??? If you want more elk including bulls stop killing cows.

It's disheartening to see those in the rule making process
buy in to the "I need inches or it ain't a real hunt" Mentality.

See CAT I told you we would eventually get to this point and here we are. Not only are we not killing enough bulls to keep the range and other species healthy, we are now going to double down
on this failed policy because the QUALITY ain't there...

What is quality?? Anybody care to define it for me?? How about defining it for my kids??










"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Marley the Consveration groups would never allow a rifle hunt in Oct, too much $ would be lost. Sad
 
>Marley the Consveration groups would never
>allow a rifle hunt in
>Oct, too much $ would
>be lost. Sad

The words "conservation group" should be in quotation when used like this. Sorry I had to
Justin
 
I definantly would not support shutting the spike hunt down every few years. Any reduced opprotunity to hunt ought to be fought against. The spike hunt is the last of the family hunts. Dads and sons and brothers and grandpas can all buy a tag over the counter and go hunt together. I also have no problem with high success hunts. Thats what we as hunters want: is to be successful. Usually the people pushing the lower success options think they are the best hunters and will still be successful while the "other" guy isn't.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-12 AT 01:56PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-12 AT 01:55?PM (MST)

Thanks for the input. Maybe we should consider only putting certain units into this or requiring the DWR to stop spike hunting on a unit when they get to certain levels of bull/cow ratio's, harvest age objectives, population management objectives etc.Right now they decrease cow tags and or issue fewer LE tags to get to the management objectives.
I just know that one unit I am very familiar with is 400 animals under population objective and well below harvest age objective. The DWR has eliminated all cow tags except for archers and reduced LE tags by 25%. I'm wondering if stopping spike hunting for a year would help to keep LE tags level with the potential of raising the harvested bull age average. It would only affect spike elk hunters for a year every few years-- still keep a little something for everyone almost every year. The bull quality and quantity has gone down hill dramatically over the past 7-8 years on this unit. I went out with a DWR biologist to help do elk classification on the unit a couple weeks ago. He ask for some help because he was unable to find any elk to classify in 2or 3 days of searching. We didn't do any better when I went with him.
If we can accept that the standard for any unit would be the stated "objective" for population or age class then I think that stopping spike hunting a for a year might be beneficial in getting to and keeeping at those objectives.
 
LMFAO! 50-70% success!!! I demand a refund I drew a tag now by gawd I'm entitled to a big ass bull! Oh yeah, I need it to be from the road too! WAFJ!

Too many problems arise from closing hunts. #1 is lost opportunity that should be the one and only reason not to do it. Another would be an overcrowding of the "open" units. With LE hunters and many more spike hunters would push the elk to hell and back.




Traditional >>>------->
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-12 AT 02:37PM (MST)[p]Elkun......I have 13 points and have put in for a rifle elk tag for 13 years. I'm still for moving the rifle tag to October. You must be the type that doesn't dare put in for a tag that has a 97% success rate because you're worried you won't get a bull. Man up and hunt.
 
Nebo,

I think it is a very good idea if range conditions permit and bull to cow ratios are in check. Save more spikes, provide more permits in 5-6 yrs for those units.
 
There is no need to close the spike hunts. Killing fewer spikes really won't lead to more big bulls, at least not in Utah on our LE units. I'm not sure what unit you are referencing, but most LE units are OVER the desired bull to cow ratio, and it is detrimental to herd productivity. You really can have too many bulls in a herd for its own good.
The problem is the method of determining harvest levels based on the age of harvested bulls from the previous years. We need to kill more of the stunted raghorns and genetically inferior bulls. Some of these are living to an old age and not hunted, because everyone wants a "trophy". Most LE units have so few tags, that a few people (new hunters, kids?) shooting a young bull can really skew the harvest average. That doesn't mean that old, big bulls aren't there, just that the hunters shot something else. Find a way to have a successful management or cull hunt, and the overall trophy size will increase in a few years. Killing fewer spikes will do nothing for the herd. It simply reduces recreational opportunity while trying to cater to the mentality that we can stockpile 400" bulls. Stockpiling big bulls just can't be done. And not everyone can shoot a 400" bull, even on the best managed unit in the world.
Bill
 
Two thoughts - First, I agree with Marley that people that hunt Utah think that there is a 360+ bull on the unit for them and then they are upset when they don't see one or kill one. Units are managed for the age of bulls and many units won't ever produce a lot of top tier bulls. Once people understand that, I think they would enjoy hunting more.

Also, if you close areas down for spike hunts, you have either got to come up with a large donation to the DWR to compensate for lost tags or they will issue the same amount of tags that will cause over-hunting the units that are open. The division will find ways of recouping lost money - i.e. the 'emergency' cow elk tags because they decreased deer tags (IMO).

Spike hunts are not easy hunts either. I don't think a large percentage of spikes even get killed.

Just my initial thoughts....
Foxskinner


www.biggamedrawodds.com
 
Great post by Marley!
Get the hunt out of the Rut, give out more tags, and get people through the system. My kids have ZERO chance of drawing a LE Elk Tag in Utah.

We do not need to stop shooting spikes to help grow more bulls.
The guys that are calling for no spike hunts simply do not like the competition when they are hunting.
 
60 to 70% on rifle hunts?? JUST 50 on muzz and bow??? i think those are pretty damn good odds in my book....only in UT do people complain about those odds....i am in the more opprotunity group, give me a tag and turn me loose....



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
O.K. Perhaps someone has forgotten that all general season Archery spike elk hunters can now only hunt spikes or cows till the 7th of September then they are done hunting on all limited entry units. this has allowed for less hunting pressure during the last week of the limited entry archery. I am sure that this olone has allowed for more spikes to grow to the magical 400 mark
Peace out
Lambo
 
There are units where it would make sense. Book cliffs is one, too many cows and not enough bulls. Wouldn't be neede right now for other units like wasatch. It would be nice if the dwr was proactive instead of reactive.
 
marly, i have had two le elk tags, great hunts a340 and 320 , its you bowhunters that are the greedy ones,,,the more the dwr gives you. the more you want,
 
DId you read my post? I HAVE NEVER PUT IN FOR AN ARCHERY TAG IN UTAH IN THE 13 YEARS I HAVE APPLIED!!!!! No one on this thread has mentioned archery except you.
 
This makes no sense at all. I know what unit you are talking about and just saturday i seen 16 branch antlered bulls on one ridge. Just stop killing the cows. and i also agree take the rifle hunt out of the rut and stop chasing the wildlife from August to November.
 
spike hunts have wipe out the book cliffs .thats why cant meet stupid age objective.cow hunts are a joke just gives them excuss to poach deer.i am in books 250 days a year it is sad out there.from what it was 5 years ago.
 
>spike hunts have wipe out the
>book cliffs .thats why cant
>meet stupid age objective.cow
>hunts are a joke just
>gives them excuss to poach
>deer.i am in books 250
>days a year it is
>sad out there.from what it
>was 5 years ago.

Why would spike hunts just decimate the herd in the book cliffs when other spike units have flourished and have high numbers of elk of all ages and sexes, are you saying they kill every single spike bull??
avatar-1.png
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]Hit the nail on the head here!!! There is no reason that archery hunters should not be hunting during the rut. Move the rifle hunt to Oct or even Nov and give the bulls a chance.

If you are going to go and fight for change, change the dates. Like Marley said, they would be able to give out more tags, reuduce the success rate slightlty, and let alot more people enjoy the trophy elk hunting experience that Utah has to offer.

I dont understand how Utah thinks that all the other western states got it wrong???? Hunting mature bulls during the rut with a rifle diminishes the trophy in my opinion. God forbid they actually make hunters hunt to kill a trophy.

Hof
 
Would someone please explain to me what is so wrong with a 350-360 class bull??
Of course 380" and 400" are better but lets be realistic here!
Does everyone that draws an LE tag have to kill a 380" bull to have a hunt of a lifetime"?
If so, that's pretty damn sad.

I guarantee you there are more hunters out there that don't give a damn about score than there are that do.
The DWR isn't going to cater to all the critics on the hunting forums who are demanding 380" bulls on every unit, they find "balance".






avatar-1.png
 
Being a biology major through undergrad and all the genetics classes I endured has always had me thinking about the fact that we as hunters, for the most part, during these LE tags are looking for the cream of the crop, the best genetics. By taking the best genetics we often leave the lesser bulls to do a lot of the breeding, hence the eruption of the very old and huge 5 points. I have often thought that by leaving the archery hunt where it is, leave the muzzy where it is, and move the rifle to the middle of October would allow a week between archery and muzzy for the elk to settle down a bit, and get some of those bigger, genetically superior bulls time to do some breeding before the rifle tags come in October. This would also lower the success rates but still offer a great hunt and be able to increase tag numbers dramatically which would still allow the DWR to actually make more money from the amount of tags sold and also get more people through the system and still have a great experience.
 
Not only that SLAMMY but most hunters will never
know the difference between 360 and 380 bull.
Especially from 300 yards out looking through a riflescope.

The whole elk management plan is predicated on others telling
you and me what a quality bull is..







"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Marley,

You are right on. Nobody ever wants to talk about disrupting and harvesting the cream of the crop prior to peak of the rut.

I would be willing to bet my best rifle on the fact that if we moved the rifle hunt 3 weeks later we would see both age and "Quality" increase within 3 years.


"Quality" a word used by dumbazz trophy hunters to describe antlers.

Move the rifle hunt and not only "quality but opportunity will improve, calf production increases, calf survival increases, herd dynamics improves etc. etc. etc..

If anyone does not believe this think for a minute how prolific you would be if every time you got mama warmed up your neighbor barged into your bedroom!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 10:46AM (MST)[p]Marley i have to disagree with you a little bit on this one.
Genetics are there whether a bull is 400" or whether he is still a branch antlered bull doing some breeding, genes don't change with age. By harvesting most of the top end bulls off San Juan doesn't mean there won't be any the following years to come.
How do we know another spider bull won't come off Monroe, Boulder, Beaver or Dutton in the next few years, he undoubtedly did some breeding before Austads bullet found it's mark. And not only the year he was in his prime, but at least three years prior to his death. Even a bull such as the Spider's genetics be totally knocked off with the genes in a bad cow.
If we want perfect genes, lets eliminate all wild bred and raised elk and do genetic breeding inside high fences only (obviously sarcasm).





avatar-1.png
 
Sounds like you have an opportunity to add some tags. 5pt only tag, must be a min of 330" though. Clean up the crappy genetics. Better than a spike bull too.
 
So, Nebo1200, in Summary:

Most hunters want:

-Keep Spike hunts as is
-Move Rifle hunt out of the rut, maybe Oct 10th and beyond
-Increase tags as a natural result of 60% success vs the current 85% plus rate.
-Decrease cow permits

Can you propose that in a unit?
 
>So, Nebo1200, in Summary:
>
>Most hunters want:
>
>-Keep Spike hunts as is
>-Move Rifle hunt out of the
>rut, maybe Oct 10th and
>beyond
>-Increase tags as a natural result
>of 60% success vs the
>current 85% plus rate.
>-Decrease cow permits
>
>Can you propose that in a
>unit?

Not a bad way to go at all, other than the cow permits WILL have to vary from year to year based on numbers of elk and what shape habitat is in.......nothing we can do about that.
And i still tend to think the success rate will be higher than 60%, especially with increased tag opportunities. Rut being all but done, versus more hunters afield seems like a wash to me.
avatar-1.png
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]While Nebo1200's idea is ok in extreme cases, I wouldn't support it on any scheduled basis. The idea of doing it to increase the ease of shooting large bulls isn't something I'd like to see either. If Nebo1200 is referring to the Nebo Unit, the unit is below age objective because the age objective was raised just a couple years ago. The UDWR has cut tags by 30% or so to increase the ages of bulls on the Nebo. I also would rather see the herd increase by female numbers rather than add more bulls to the mix. More cows mean more cows/spikes/branched bulls to hunt.

The quality of a hunt for me means I can do it often. I shot a nice bull on my Utah LTD hunt and it was fun. But I have better quality hunts on UT Any-bull units and especially in Wyoming where I can go yearly if I desire. That is quality. Waiting 15+ years to hunt-- not so much.
 
Feel free to move the elk hunt right after my girls draw their tags!

I for one like the hunt in the rut. It's so damn exciting too!

Some of you guys forget what our elk hunts used to be like. It's a wonderful thing compared to the good old days!

As for the guy who said we should quit chasing game from Aug to Nov... which one of YOUR hunts should we cut out, move or shorten?

Zeke
 
Zeke,
I agree, wait to make the changes until I get my boys their elk :)

I think we should change a couple of units only. It is fun hunting elk with a rifle in the RUT, WOW.
 
Slam-dunk.... I realize that a spike may have the same genetics as a 400 class bull but when you have a 350 class 12 year old 5 point with a bad attitude you can bet that the 4 point with the genetics to become a 400 inch stud is not going to be breeding those cows and the big 5 passes on his genes.
 
While many lament the fact that LE tags are hard to draw and they will probably only have 1 in their lifetime they seem to forget that it's not the only thing or the only place to hunt. Sure I'd like to have a LE tag every year but the demand has out-stripped the supply by 100's of times. The reason the demand is high is because the management has worked! We now actually have big bulls to hunt. I'd rather have 1 bull around 350" than 20 which won't make 250".... but I realize this is only my view. To me a 250" bull is fun to hunt and exciting but it's still just meat. There are plenty of "meat" hunts out there without messing with the LE elk hunts.

I manage to do a little hunting and I've only had 1 LE elk tag in my life and based on the odds it will probably be my last. I'm not whining about it though because there are plenty of places to hunt and other critters to be had whether a guuy is after a big one or a piece of meat.

As usual, just my 2 cents,
Zeke
 
Move the rifle hunt to October. Give archery hunters all of September, like all other western states. I am a rifle hunter. This would make more people put in for Archery tags. This would also give the bigger bulls a chance to breed with cows. Then when the rifle hunt starts, all the cows that didn't become pregnant, would recycle, and there would be enough rut activity for the rifle hunters. With the "Conservation" groups making as much money as they are on auction tags, this will never happen.
 
Thanks for all of your thoughts of this. When the DWR began the LE elk program, spike hunting was eliminated for a number of years to get the bull numbers up. Most of you probably don't remember the days of being able to hunt an elk every 5 years, then every 3 years then every year , then the LE elk units came into play. Even though the system now isn't perfect it is so much better than what we had years ago. It is better for opportunity, quality etc. I suppose whether or not you like this idea has alot to do with your frame of reference. If you have grown up hunting elk every year then I can see how limiting your spike elk hunting in a particular unit for a year would cause you some heartburn. To me -- quality isn't just being able to kill a 400 or a 350 bull-- but normally the chances of finding a bull of that size happens more likely when there are a high population of mature bulls on any one unit. Sometimes, whether or not a hunter kills a 380 bull can be because of good luck or hard work- but mostly a combination of both. The reason I have thought of proposing closing spike hunting was to hopefully help stablize mature bull numbers over several years time. I have seen many times that some units get beat down by too many tags for too many years and then the DWR has to take a more drastic approach by decreasing tag numbers. I thought maybe allowing a whole generation of yearling bulls to be recruited into the population would actually increase the number of mature bulls available to hunters over the next several years without having to decrease LE permit numbers. Certainly all of those yearling bulls would not get killed the very next year and some would survive for several years at least. Its kind of like giving the herds a little booster shot.
The unit I was talking about is the Nebo. If you know the unit like I do, there is no way you can honestly say that it is as good as it was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. I drew the unit in 1998 and it was an absolute pleasure to hunt. Five years ago I hunted it with one of my boys and it didn't even come close to what the unit offered on my hunt. Then again last year my other son drew it and it was even worse. Less elk, less bulls. On my hunt I would see an average of 150 to 200 elk a day and 10-12, 6 pt bulls and bigger every day. In '97 we saw an average of 30 -40 elk per day and 1-2 mature bulls, last year 15 to 20 elk per day and maybe 1 mature bull.
I just think that there is a better way to stablilize the numbers and require the DWR to respond more quickly to what is actually happening on the ground. I was thinking perhaps that closing spike hunting every few years may help keep tag numbers up and therby keep opportunity up also.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]1. Managing bulls by age alone is poor management. NV has done tooth data that shows after 6 years old, genetics are more important than age. You can have a 10 yr old bulls that will always be a 300 class bull or less and you can have 400 class 6 yr old bulls. I agree 7-9 yr old bulls usually peak in antler growth.

Manage elk like AZ.

More archery permits. with 20-50% success rate.

More muzzle permits in Sept Success 50-60% 5-7 day hunt and a Nov.hunt with 20-30% success.

Some early rifle permits 10%. 70-100% success for those who have a lot of points and want a once in a lifetime hunt.

Mid Oct rifle LE elk hunts 7-10 days 50% success rate.

More opportunity, healthy herds, great hunts,still great quality bulls 380 plus.

You could hunt archery hunt, late muzzle hunt, and Oct rifle hunt more often. Everyone hunts more. In most cases You won't be able to turn down a lot of 340-350 bulls unless you have the early rifle hunt.
 
I agree with your logic on some units Nebo.

Also if you give out more archery tags, you will kill more of those old 300-320 class 5x5 and 5x6 bulls and give more people a chance to hunt.

A muzzle loader or early rifle management hunt starting around the first week of August prior to the archery hunt in SOME units would cull some inferior bulls as well, without killing broken bulls.
 
Zeke,

Have you killed 20 plus bulls in your life? If so then you probably know you would rather have that one 350 bull. If not I challenge you to really think about what you assume.

However, I am willing to bet a person who has killed twenty plus bulls in there life has had the opportunity or has killed more than one 350 bull. 350 Bulls exist in every herd where herds are prolific. I have a 26 year old daughter who's had opprotunity and shots at 4 350 plus bulls. I myself cannot remember how many opportunties I have had at 350 plus bulls.

I do remember when branch antlered bulls were few and far between in Utah. I also remember being the awe of hunting camp when one was brought in. Yes even back then 350 bulls existed. Fortunately they did not receive the publicity they do now nor did every body think they deserved one. Folks hunted and if it happened it was just icing on the cake.

My point being that if given an opportuntiy to hunt elk often and the patience and persistence to hold out 350 plus bulls are going to come along every once in a while. Even in units where over the counter tags and public land are the norm. We should not manage antler harvest, sound management is to rely on surplus harvest and every unit in Utah is carrying surplus bulls. So limiting spike hunting every few years is not sound management, carrying high bull to cow ratios is not sound management. This is evidenced by the "emergency drought" cow tags. Why are these not bull tags? Do bulls not eat winter range? What happens when conditions return to normal? Oh I believe I got the answer we cut cow tags or opportunity because now we have a herd that needs increasing. This increase is exponential to childbearing animals. Therefore it will take years to recover because we reduced cows instead of bulls. Had we reduced bulls to lessen impacts on winter range, herd numbers would not take a hit as the foundation would be the same in the number of cow elk. Unfortunately down the road a few years every one is wondering what happened to the upper age class bulls. Let me tell you in the winter of 2012-2013 we killed all the cows that were raising 2019-2023 upper age class bulls. So it wil ltake a while to recover that age class of bulls. Could this be what has happened in Central Utah? Did Fish Lake not have a severe cecrease in the cow elk population 5-8 years ago? Since Bulls are migratory breeders were some of these out lying "trophy" units being fed by the large cow population on Fish Lake? Then lost that pipeline when cows were decreased. Again basing long term viability of elk herds on age class and trophy harvest does not make anymore sense than unlimited bull harvest of 25 years ago.

Anyway enough on herd management 101. Good Luck to all who try and slay the wiley wapiti (Sorry Gordy) this fall.
 
>Slam-dunk.... I realize that a spike
>may have the same genetics
>as a 400 class bull
>but when you have a
>350 class 12 year old
> 5 point with a
>bad attitude you can bet
>that the 4 point with
>the genetics to become a
>400 inch stud is not
>going to be breeding those
>cows and the big 5
>passes on his genes.

That is a very good point no doubt, and i have seen that scenerio quite a few times. But i would tend to think it's more of an exception than a rule.
Not all cows are scooped up by older bulls with the best genetics either. I have seen quite a few times where a big old narly 340" 5x6 kicks a beautiful 380" bull right out of the herd. Pretty horns don't make for badder attitudes.
And how many of us have seen a big herd of cows being pushed by a raggy looking 4 year old bull? It definitely doesn't mean that raggy looking bull won't be a solid B&C bull within the next three years.
There are just so many variables that we'll NEVER dial it in perfectly as humans......you will never out wit mother nature ;-)
avatar-1.png
 
Wow nebo ,another post wanting to take away oppurtunity for the sake of making hunting easier, unbelievable! That type of mind set is what is killing this sport we all love so much.It is very apparent that inches are the only thing factoring in on what makes your hunts "quality". This is dishearting to me. Your sense of entitlement and selfishness in this post and many others make me very grateful that your not sitting on my RAC up north.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]Mulepacker,
Let's put it this way. I've been pretty lucky in my 43 years of hunting elk.....and my "luck" with hunting seems to continue.

I didn't want to turn this into a "show me yours and I'll show you mine" contest. I was simply voicing my opinion...especially toward the younger guys who have no idea what our elk herd used to be like.

You're correct in your statement that 350 bulls probably exist on all units but if you're honest and realistic you'll have to agree that on OPEN units bulls of that size don't exist in HUNTABLE numbers and success on them is less than 1% of the hunters on the unit.

While everyone has an opinion, everyone thinks theirs is the only correct one. That's human nature. Isn't free speach great?

"May all your wildest dreams come true",
Zeke

edit; damn spielllinrt
 
Sorry, my questions/reply was not meant to get into a show me contest but rather to stimulate thought. I apologize if I made it to personal.

3 of the 4 opportunites my daughter has had at 350 plus bulls in fact have been on an OPEN unit and Public land (over the counter tag). The other was the N CACHE in Utah. With the exception of 2, my 350 plus opportunities all have been on OPEN units and Public land. One was the N Cache the other a General season Non resident permit in Wyoming. So my opinion is formed from my experience and is honest and realisitic. As far as overall hunters it may be 1% I imagine it is documsnted somewhere.

I guess that is why I would like to see our elk herds managed more by science and less by opinions.

If this program has a spell check, please tell me how to use it. It is obvious I could use a little editing.
 
Cache-- you seem to have grown up in an era where you have been given a great deal of opportunity and maybe without a great deal of work. The opportunity to hunt big game in this state has never been better. There are so many opportunities to hunt elk EVERY year that I don't really know what you are complaining about. You could hunt elk every year if you want. But, then maybe you are talking about you being able to hunt BULLS every year. You may not count "inches" but you wanting to hunt bulls every year is really not much different than the ones who are looking to hunt "inches". Basically you are no different- just looking for your your own perception of what is a great hunt for you. I could care less if you don't count inches-- there are plenty of open bull units you could hunt in every year. Thats why the DWR set it up the way they have. My whole post wasn't about "inches" it was about perhaps stablizing the bull numbers over several years and thereby keeping tag numbers more stable. And, Yeah you are right- you wouldn't like me on your Northern RAC either. I have neither an "entitlement" attitude or am I selfish in regards to me getting to hunt. I haven't punched my deer tag for over 25 years and haven't killed an elk since '98. I have hunted deer every one of those years and am thankful to have the privilege to be able to do it and make my own decision as to whether I shoot or don't shoot. Maybe its you that has the entitlement mentality along with a selfish attitude that your opinions are the only ones that have any merit. From what you have said I am not sure I would care to share any mountain with you. I think I would let you have it all to yourself so you can do it your way and not be bothered by anyone else that has a different view of how to hunt it -- and why.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12
>AT 11:51?AM (MST)
>
>1. Managing bulls by age
>alone is poor management.
>NV has done tooth data
>that shows after 6 years
>old, genetics are more important
>than age. You can
>have a 10 yr old
>bulls that will always be
>a 300 class bull or
>less and you can have
>400 class 6 yr old
>bulls. I agree 7-9
>yr old bulls usually peak
>in antler growth.
>
>Manage elk like AZ.
>
>More archery permits. with 20-50% success
>rate.
>
>More muzzle permits in Sept Success
>50-60% 5-7 day hunt and
>a Nov.hunt with 20-30% success.
>
>
>Some early rifle permits 10%. 70-100%
>success for those who have
>a lot of points and
>want a once in a
>lifetime hunt.
>
>Mid Oct rifle LE elk hunts
>7-10 days 50% success rate.
>
>
>More opportunity, healthy herds, great hunts,still
>great quality bulls 380 plus.
>
>
>You could hunt archery hunt, late
>muzzle hunt, and Oct rifle
>hunt more often. Everyone
>hunts more. In most
>cases You won't be able
>to turn down a lot
>of 340-350 bulls unless you
>have the early rifle hunt.
>

+1000

Yep... seems to work and would allow alot more opportunity so everybody doesnt have to wait 10+ years for a tag.
 
Just because someone plays the "science" card does not make their opinion science based. Too many opinions are passed off as science based when in fact they are still simply opinion.

You've been a lucky man MulePacker (and probably an excellent hunter too) to have had that many opportunities on 350" bulls on open units. You are certainly the exception rather than the rule when it comes to multiple opportunities to kill 350" bulls on open units! Of this there is no refuting!

If it's simply hunting that I guy wants to do then we have lots of options to do so but if a guy wants a big bull opportunity occasionally then the status quo is still a viable option.

Keep up the good hunting,
Zeke
 
you keep killing spikes and cows like you are now , in 5or 6 more years you wont need to worrly about the big ones,,,,
 
So when does opinion not become opinion and become science based?

I am not saying manage elk to what "I" would like. I have and will always preach to manage to habitat and herd health while maintaining proper dynamics/ratios. There are many methods in so doing I would challenge any one to find one method that list harvest age objective as a management technique. Utah certainly has based elk herd management much on opinion in the past 15 years.

There are plenty of studies proving disruptions in mating and rutting behavior to warrant that you do not do it. In fact many of those were influential in moving Utahs muzzleloader season for deer. However, a blind eye has been turned when it comes to elk. Why?

My opinion is this, Utah needs to quit managing for the benefit of a special interest group (trophy interests) and begin managing for the long term viability of the herd. IMO I am a Trophy Hunter. How is that for an opinion?
 
>you keep killing spikes and cows
>like you are now ,
>in 5or 6 more years
>you wont need to worrly
>about the big ones,,,,

Ummmmm.....we have been killing thousands of cows and spike bulls for over 20 years now and our herds have done nothing but explode on every unit...........
I am 45 years old and remember hunting elk back when it was "any bull" on the wasatch and Manti in the 80's, seeing any bull at all was like seeing a Sasquatch.
avatar-1.png
 
MP....i love this statement you made, it's perfect-
"My opinion is this, Utah needs to quit managing for the benefit of a special interest group (trophy interests) and begin managing for the long term viability of the herd."

I couldn't agree more.
And like i said in one of my earlier posts above, there are a hell of a lot more "non interest group" hunters out there than there are special interest groups, we just don't don't see it or hear it because they are silent. The DWR is trying to apease us all, but to most of the groups of special interest, that just isn't good enough.
If anyone thinks special interest groups have all the power, just go to Strawberry valley or anywhere in the Manti unit on opening weekend of the spike season and you'll see who overpowers who ;-)
As i asked earlier......since when isn't a 350" bull a "trophy"?
I'd much rather be able to take three or four of those in my home state in my lifetime than a shot at ONE 380-400!!






avatar-1.png
 
wake up/slamdunk northeastern utah elk are not halfe what they were 10 years ago. just keep killing those cows ,the more you kill the more elk thier is, yes sir mr, slam you know all about it,,,
 
I would bet that the average bull elk killed in this state on all LE units combined would be around 325. We sometimes hear alot about the big ones, but the majority by far is probably around 310ish. I think that the "special interest" groups are full of hunters that would love to kill a 380+ bull but 90% end up with something much less. I think that most guys would like to know that their are those kind of bulls where they would like to hunt and maybe if they have a little luck along with hard work they could find one. Not one of us would turn down taking a 350 bull if we had the choice between it and a 320 bull. Part of what motivates most of us is having a chance to find the big one-- but most of us just enjoy the challenge-- each to his own. If you just want to hunt elk every year in this state, you can.
 
We have become quite the divisive bunch! When did a trophy hunter become a seperate "special interest" group? Silly thought! When did we pit the trophy hunter against the meat hunter? I've always been a little bit of both and have felt no conflict!

There has been an over-commercialization of hunting but when we look at it this remains a very small percentage of hunting. Most of us are just average Joes trying to make the best of whatever tag we get.

I appreciate the opinions of others and we all have to understand that they are just that... opinions. Some of us, me included, sprinkle a few fact in with our opinion to make it sound better but ours are still opinions.

When we look at the fact that the Ut elk herd has exploded in most areas we can't use the old argument that hunting in the rut "disrupts" the breeding. While hunting in the rut is inconvenient for the elk I suppose that hunting them any time is a little inconvenient for them but the population certainly doesn't suffer.

I don't have all the answers but this much I know. Our elk herds are in much better shape than they were in the first 2+ decades that I hunted them. I hate to see the permits increased to the point where the hunting experience is compromised. And moving of the "trophy" elk hunt is simply an attenpt to issue more tags with lower succuss. Even if the bull quality (whatever that is to you) isn't reduced the overall experience would be because of the added hunters.

As usual, just my 2 cents
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-12 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]Zeke, thanks for your thoughtful insights. Whether or not I ever kill a 380 bull is not as fun as the anticipation of thinking I might be able to sometime or that my kids might. Just being able to share the experience with them will last forever-- not the inches. Again thanks for the "leaven" in the loaf.
 
Dont worry Nebo with the log jam we have backed up with the rut rifle hunt your kids WONT be hunting. As DP said go to CO if you want to hunt elk.
 
I hate to see the permits decreased to where: "the hunting experience is compromised".

Whether we agree it is good for hunting or not and IMO "not". There are special interest groups i.e. bowhunters, muzzleloaders, rifle hunters, bird hunters, opportunists and "trophy hunters" to name a few. Although I am often labeled a bowhunter I have not held an archery only tag for at least 12 years. However, when Utah went to choose your weapon IMO the hunting experience was compromised. When branch antlered elk tags in my neck of the wood became limited the huntng experience became compromised when we went to a choose your unit for deer the hunting experience became compromised. My point being it may be ok to compromise hunting experience I am not sure it is ok to compromise elk management. IMO "the hunting experience" is defined by days in the field not by my bag at the end of the day. Maybe I too see things just a little different and as was said thank goodness we live in a country where we can fight for what we believe in.

I find irony in Utah boasting of its elk herd as this is evisdent in all elk states. My question is has Utah used methods of increasing the herd that are in harmony with other users and habitat in the state. Or have we compromised to grow big bulls in large herds. It is unfortunate to see my neighbors livliehoods threatened each winter in order to acomodate an elk herd above carrying capacity to quench the thirst for big bulls.

I may be naive but I firmly believe put a branch antlered bull elk tag in my pocket for any area in the US and I will leave opening morning with expectations of killing a 350 bull. I certainly do not need a San Juan, Unit 7,63,64, 16b or other area permits to have those aspirations.

Simply a point I believe days in the field have as much to do with the hunting experience and achieving goals as anything. Therefore I would truly like a system that allows me to draw more than one bull elk permit in a life time.

I am thankful for the opportunity to hunt spikes every year it has provided great experiences mentoring my neighbor kids while filling my freezer occasionally. I am more thankful I am in a position to leave Utah and hunt big bulls to fullfill that need also.
 
>I hate to see the permits
>decreased to where: "the hunting
>experience is compromised".
>
>Whether we agree it is good
>for hunting or not and
>IMO "not". There are special
>interest groups i.e. bowhunters, muzzleloaders,
>rifle hunters, bird hunters, opportunists
>and "trophy hunters" to name
>a few. Although I am
>often labeled a bowhunter I
>have not held an archery
>only tag for at least
>12 years. However, when Utah
>went to choose your weapon
>IMO the hunting experience was
>compromised. When branch antlered elk
>tags in my neck of
>the wood became limited the
>huntng experience became compromised when
>we went to a choose
>your unit for deer the
>hunting experience became compromised. My
>point being it may be
>ok to compromise hunting experience
>I am not sure it
>is ok to compromise elk
>management. IMO "the hunting
>experience" is defined by days
>in the field not by
>my bag at the end
>of the day. Maybe I
>too see things just a
>little different and as was
>said thank goodness we live
>in a country where we
>can fight for what we
>believe in.
>
>I find irony in Utah boasting
>of its elk herd as
>this is evisdent in all
>elk states. My question is
>has Utah used methods of
>increasing the herd that are
>in harmony with other users
>and habitat in the state.
>Or have we compromised to
>grow big bulls in large
>herds. It is unfortunate to
>see my neighbors livliehoods threatened
>each winter in order to
>acomodate an elk herd above
>carrying capacity to quench the
>thirst for big bulls.
>
>I may be naive but I
>firmly believe put a branch
>antlered bull elk tag in
>my pocket for any area
>in the US and I
>will leave opening morning with
>expectations of killing a 350
>bull. I certainly do not
>need a San Juan, Unit
>7,63,64, 16b or other area
>permits to have those aspirations.
>
>
>Simply a point I believe days
>in the field have as
>much to do with the
>hunting experience and achieving goals
>as anything. Therefore I would
>truly like a system that
>allows me to draw more
>than one bull elk permit
>in a life time.
>
>I am thankful for the opportunity
>to hunt spikes every year
>it has provided great experiences
>mentoring my neighbor kids while
>filling my freezer occasionally. I
>am more thankful I am
>in a position to leave
>Utah and hunt big bulls
>to fullfill that need also.
>

I love your passion and respect you opinion and celebrate your accomplishments! And I believe you when you say you think you could find a 350" bull on any open area. Period!

We disagree on a minor point but much of what you say I am all yours! I guess it's human nature to try to sub-categorize everything so we all can't just be hunters! I suspect if we ever shared a campfire you'd find we're just about on the same track on everything but a couple points. Good hell man, we're brother-hunters after all (hunters... not bow, meat, trophy, rifle, front-stuffers... just hunters)!

Freedom is a wondeful thing. We're both enjoying it!

Zeke
 
Deerlove-- 2 of my kids have already drawn. They can buy an open bull permit every year if they want to. They can buy a spike tag every year of they want to.Heck they could even buy TWO cow tags if they want to. The opportunity to hunt elk is all around you-- You could even hunt spikes on the Monroe-- that is if you don't care about size--which I gather is not a problem with you.Right?Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Great comment by all.
So back to your initial question Nebo.
-I would be OPPOSED, and it seems like most are, to reducing Spike Hunts. There does not seem to be a need.

Other thoughts:

-I agree with Zeke. I see LOTS and LOTS of calves on every unit. I do not think the breeding is being compromised by hunters.
-I think we need to evaluate how to get rid of the LE Elk Log jam. Why can't we take 1-3 units and give LOTS of Archery tags, and reduce the rifle harvest. (by the way do not get hung up on my name, I LOVE to rifle hunt)
-Keep most units as is, and let people dream about getting that unreal tag, and then enjoy the Hell out of it when they do.

So, that is what I would like you to propose.

Hope that helps.

Mike
 
Oh Mike, this is why I like you so much. We can disagree (on a couple little points) and still walk away as the friends we are!

This "logjam" is just another word for "now that we have bulls I want to hunt them". The system works.

The kids will hunt big bulls in due time and if you're a mulepacker believer then they can get/see one every year on the general bull unit. In the meanwhile there is a bunch of hunting that can be done. My son and girls have not suffered just because big bull tags are limited.

It took over 28 years of application before I had a limited tag and it came about BECAUSE of the bunus point system. I still hunted elk every single year along with a few other critters.

BTW: We're not too far off from what I find very acceptable. I appreciate and respect your comments....always.

Only my opinion,
Zeke
 
LMAO! only 60-70% success on rifle hahah what do you want 100%? high fence is your solution! i dont think its a bad idea to close 4 or 5 a year to spike hunting but i dont know it will do a whole lot. i really dont think we need 90-100 percent success on LE i would like to see the rifle taken outta the rut thus lowering the success while likely giving more tags out to kill the same amount of bulls as they do now. for instance if a unit is 100 percent success with 200 tags and the hunt was taken from the rut and the success ended up dropping to 50 percent you could give out 400 tags and it would still keep the same amount of bulls killed but it would also give people there chance and throught the system better. i dont think we need a canned le hunt. i also bet taking the rifle outta the rut would allow bulls to get bigger as they are dumb as heck while rutting and would get a chance to get a clearer head when the rifle huntis on. i think archery would be ok to hunt a little during the rut as its dang hard sneakin up to a herd bull with 30 cows with a bow. but id say leave a week in between archery and muzz. like shut elk hunting down from the 18th-the 25th of september so archery from the aug,23 to sept 17th muzz from sept 26 to oct 4 then rifle from oct 12-20th or somethin like that. i know everyone wants to hunt rifle during the rut but comeon its just gettin the biggest bulls snuffed every year without much chance of getting bigger.
 
Like many of the responses, I couldn't support this idea on any kind of regular basis/rotation. I like how packout put it:

..................................................

Packout (1242 posts)
Aug-28-12, 10:40 AM (MST)
37. "RE: Closing Spike elk hunts ?"
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-12 AT 10:42 AM (MST)

"While Nebo1200's idea is ok in extreme cases, I wouldn't support it on any scheduled basis. The idea of doing it to increase the ease of shooting large bulls isn't something I'd like to see either. If Nebo1200 is referring to the Nebo Unit, the unit is below age objective because the age objective was raised just a couple years ago. The UDWR has cut tags by 30% or so to increase the ages of bulls on the Nebo. I also would rather see the herd increase by female numbers rather than add more bulls to the mix. More cows mean more cows/spikes/branched bulls to hunt.

The quality of a hunt for me means I can do it often. I shot a nice bull on my Utah LTD hunt and it was fun. But I have better quality hunts on UT Any-bull units and especially in Wyoming where I can go yearly if I desire. That is quality. Waiting 15+ years to hunt-- not so much."

...............................................


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Packout etc-- I am not concerned with whether or not a rifle hunt ends up with 100% success. I know many hunters don't fill their tags because they can't find the type of bull they want . Nebo has been in a major decline in the last 7-8 years not only in average age of bulls harvested which as of 2010 was 5.9 with an objective of 6.5 to 7.0. The herd estimate has gone from 1347 in 2004 to 924 in 2010. The population objective for the unit is 1450 post season. My guess is that it would be even lower this year. The bulls per 100 cows has gone from 19/100 in 2004 to 8/100 in 2010. They have decreased the LE bull tags by 25% in 2011 and 2012. They eliminated the extended season antlerless hunt in 2011 and then eliminated antlerless tags except for archery in 2012. How does that fit with your increased opportunity guidelines ? All I was trying to propose was a way that perhaps we could keep the number of LE bull tags at the same level instead of the roller coaster of increasing/descreasing tag numbers. Certainly not having any antlerless permits will be the best way to get the unit back up to objective. But, in the meantime, there is now much less opportunity for elk hunting for the next several years at least. Also, after checking the big game stats on the DWR site-- Archery and muzzleloader success rates have gone down into the 20-30% range. They still may give you the opportunity to hunt and have a great time doing it but at what point does the opportunity to harvest an animal begin to affect whether or not it was a satisfactory opportunity ? If the DWR issued 200 LE tags on the unit would that be enough opportunity to satisfy those that don't care about "inches" ?
Remember, I was just trying to come up with a way that perhaps we might be able maintain at least the current opportunities we have.
 
Nebo12000,
I see what you're talking about. You've put some thought into this instead of just Snapping at other posters for having a different viewpoint.
If it's all about more opportunity and reducing the "logjam" of big bull hunt applicants then something should be done to promote the increase of bulls on the unit.
I have not spent too much time on that unit in the past 20 years but I hunted elk there for several years. I don't have a good enough feel for the unit at this point to have a valid opinion of how to fix the problem.
Zeke
 
Nebo1200- I never said anything about 100% success rates. All I said is that I disagree with a scheduled rotating closure of spike hunts on all LTD Entry units-- which is what you proposed. What got us into the mess over the past decade is we under-harvested bulls for so long it created an unsustainable expectation for hunters and the UDWR had to shoot cows to carry that many more bulls. Some of us warned this would happen: a crash. So to infuse more bulls, surplus bulls, into the herd will simply extend the problem. I believe that if the UDWR is allowed to actually manage the bulls then over the next 5 years we will see improvement on the Nebo. BUT it will take time.

Your stat on the 2010 average age is misleading to those who are not familiar with the Nebo. The unit, in 2009, was managed for an average age of 5.5-6.0. It went to 6.5-7.0 in 2010. Of course the average age won't increase by 1+ years in the first year of the new management strategy. The UDWR has cut LTD permits by 30% or so. They are going to grow bulls again. It takes time. Time.

You and I stood together in asking the UDWR to slow the cow tags on the Nebo. I was the one who tried to get them to issue tags for other parts of the unit when they said they had too many elk and kept pounding the Mona side. I grew up elk hunting on the public lands of the Nebo when it was anybull and anyelk. We both have a passion for the resource and most times we fall close to the same page, but this topic I can't see the reward.

Zeke- I like your passion and posts. If you ever have 20 minutes to burn in American Fork, you are welcome to stop by and talk about some of the previous questions.
 
Packopout-- I was referring to some of the other post in regards to the "100%" thing-- sorry I linked you to it. My biggest problem with the DWR is that they have known for several years that the unit was declining fast and I think that their own stats bear that out. I just don't think that it is necessary to have such big swings in permit opportunity. The over harvest of antlerless elk is now very apparent not only in the number of bulls but also the opportunity for those who want it, to find bigger bulls. The DWR biologist I went with was just shaking his head in regards to where the unit was and now is. I would like to see them listen more to guys like you in regards to where the harvest is taking place vs. where the harvest focus should be. But they like to just look and manage units based on overall poulation, not just where the herds are being over harvested. I think the Wasatch is another prime example of that situation. I believe there are remedies to that but I am not sure the division wants to go there.
They did change the age objective 2 or 3 years ago and I think that it was increased on the unit because the average age was in the high 6's. What they didn't do at the same time was to implement harvest strategies that would help maintain that age structure and bull/ cow ratio. So now we are in a situation where ther is considerably less opportunity not only for elk hunting in general on the unit but for those bigger bulls that some hunters want. Thanks for your input,I know you to be a great advocate for our big game traditions.
 
>spike hunts have wipe out the
>book cliffs .thats why cant
>meet stupid age objective.cow
>hunts are a joke just
>gives them excuss to poach
>deer.i am in books 250
>days a year it is
>sad out there.from what it
>was 5 years ago.

Perhaps the most idiotic statement I have read. How does killing or not killing yearling bulls change the age objective? Unless that objective is 1yr old bulls, whether or not you kill them has nothing to do with whether you have 5-6yr old bulls or 6-7yr old bulls. I am not a "trophy hunter" but I am sure that the next herd I get in that has a 6 point bull, and a spike bull, I will shoot the 6 point. If you don't have enough 6 yr old bulls its because we kill too many 5 yr old bulls. Perhaps we need to not have so many tags for mature bulls. Besides, we were sold the Manti being a "trophy" unit until the DWR and "conservation" groups started using it for a cash cow, now its a 5-6 yr old unit. If the DWR wants 6-7yr old units, they can manage for it, but that doesn't mean no spike hunt, it means fewer LE tags. But for the love of GAWD, if your pissed about a 70% success rate, that says WAY more about you than it does the quality of a unit!



When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
nebo like i said i dont think its a bad idea. would certainly not hurt to bring it up at the racks. maybe he close some of the units to archery cow. seein how you can kill a spike or a cow with the general spike tag. maybe the cow part needs to be taken off for the unit and a few others. and maybe they need to just set caps for each spike unit instead of giving a lump statewide amount maybe they need to cap it. ( which im sure is far too much work for them) but anyway try proposing your idea i dont think its gonna hurt anything
 
Utah fish and game do not listen to anyne so it it a mute point.
I agree with this but it will never happen.
DWR in Utah is the worst
 
>Utah fish and game do not
>listen to anyne so it
>it a mute point.
>I agree with this but it
>will never happen.
>DWR in Utah is the worst
>

Go ahead and move to another state like i did.......you'll be begging to come back to Utah's hunting.
avatar-1.png
 

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