The Paunsagunt is sick

NVdrhntr · Oct 8, 2007

Just returned from hunting with some friends who have tags on the paunsagunt. So far neither have harvested. I had this tag back in 1994. (the good old days). I got a great buck.
We saw a lot of deer and several decent bucks. We kept saying,
"boy, give that buck another year or two and he'll be big."
But, maybe that's not the case. Maybe they won't be bigger.
Is it possible that we've shot out the genetics of this herd?
3 years ago a friend drew the Sportsman's tag and we spent several days in late November on the Paunsagunt, and again saw several "nice" bucks but no bombers. One thing that really worried us was seeing many large 2 points. Is this bad genetics?
And where are all the non-typical bucks that used to be there?
You're hard pressed to ever see one anymore.

Is it possible to take so many big bucks like was done in the early 90's that we now have genetically inferior deer left?

deserteagle500 · Oct 9, 2007

it switchs all the time. in cycles of about a decade, you'll see big ol bucks runnin around again.

beat this

proutdoors · Oct 9, 2007

That is a great article in the latest Bowhunting World on 'shooting' out a genetic trait. Basically it says that even in a high fenced area, it is statisically impossible to remove a genetic trait from a herd thru 'culling'. I imagine the same principles apply for shooting out a certain 'good' trait. I have a buddy who had an archery tag on the pauns this year, he missed a buck that was the widest buck I have ever seen, it was also the tallest buck I have ever seen. He ended up killing a huge 200 class cactus buck. I thought there were lots of 180 class bucks running around. 200 class bucks are rare everywhere, not just on the pauns.

PRO

CouesSniper · Oct 9, 2007

While I agree with PRO that it is probably impossible to 'shoot out' a trait, i do believe that it is possible to weaken the over all genetics of a given herd, and lessen the likelihood of monster bucks. I've seen it first hand. A certain ranch we hunted in Mexico had unbelievable genetics, and we killed some huge bucks the first couple years. Fast forward 6 years and you're hard pressed to find a 100" buck (these are Coues deer), and there is a big propensity for really big 2 points. Why? Because nobody wants to waste their tag on those big mature 2 points and they got to spread their genes around. We were too busy killing the genetically better deer. Obviously the genetics are still there to produce good bucks, but since the 2 point genetic is now a larger percent of the gene pool, there aren't AS MANY of them. Think about it, if you kill everyone in a certain town over 5'6", there still might be a tall person produced every once in a while, but there certainly won't be as many. So while I'm sure there are some toads on the Pauns, the genetics may well be "worse" than years past. Especially with the recent focus on killing "trophy" deer. Just my 2 cents.

Packout · Oct 9, 2007

I grew up on a farm/ranch and have raised cattle my whole life. Now when a certain cow has a desirable trait then that cow is bred to a bull with a similar trait in his lineage. The resulting offspring will be likely to have the desirable trait.

The same situation is present when raising horses. Papers and pedigrees show the traits desired. You want a horse to act a certain way then you look for those genetics. You want a horse to cut cattle, then you look for certain traits in their genetics.

The same thing happens with deer. If you shoot the best traits out of the herd for multiple years then the herd will be much less likely to demonstrate those traits. While you are culling the best traits from the herd, you are leaving the animals with undesirable traits to do the breeding. Their poor traits will most likely be demonstrated in their off-spring.

There are always "throw-backs" as we call them. Off spring which do not show the traits of the immediate lineage. They show traits from way back when. In cattle it might be a dwarf, in horses it might be a hammer-head, in deer it could be the Non-typical giant or a 22" 2x3.

So Pro is right that you can never completely remove the genetic traits, but you can surely reduce and suppress them. In deer on the best units we are suppressing the best genetics by removing them from the herd before breeding is accomplished. In livestock we are suppressing the worst genetics. It isn't rocket science.

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www.sagebasin.com
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ktg · Oct 9, 2007

LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]+1 packout. This is the argument I take when people suggest point restrictions for deer. That leaves all the giant 2 points to breed more giant 2 points and forces those who would have shot those 2 points to hunt longer and kill a deer that is possibly genetically superior. The book cliffs is a good example. Lots of big non-4 point deer out there and they only had 3 point or better in place for a few years. If anything, they should put on a 3 point or less rule, like spike only elk units.

NVdrhntr · Oct 9, 2007

Those of you who know genetics, Which I don't
Will a doe mule deer carry the genes to her male offspring
like giant antlers? Or do those genes only come from the male
passed on to his male offspring?

CouesSniper · Oct 9, 2007

>Those of you who know genetics,
>Which I don't
>Will a doe mule deer carry
>the genes to her male
>offspring
>like giant antlers?
>

From what i have heard, yes. The right buck has to mate with the right doe to produce a monster deer. I don't have any real evidence of this except from conversations with people I think would know.

manny15 · Oct 9, 2007

>I grew up on a farm/ranch
>and have raised cattle my
>whole life. Now when
>a certain cow has a
>desirable trait then that cow
>is bred to a bull
>with a similar trait in
>his lineage. The resulting
>offspring will be likely to
>have the desirable trait.
>
>The same situation is present when
>raising horses. Papers and
>pedigrees show the traits desired.
> You want a horse
>to act a certain way
>then you look for those
>genetics. You want a
>horse to cut cattle, then
>you look for certain traits
>in their genetics.
>
>The same thing happens with deer.
> If you shoot the
>best traits out of the
>herd for multiple years then
>the herd will be much
>less likely to demonstrate those
>traits. While you are
>culling the best traits from
>the herd, you are leaving
>the animals with undesirable traits
>to do the breeding.
>Their poor traits will most
>likely be demonstrated in their
>off-spring.
>
>There are always "throw-backs" as we
>call them. Off spring
>which do not show the
>traits of the immediate lineage.
> They show traits from
>way back when. In
>cattle it might be a
>dwarf, in horses it might
>be a hammer-head, in deer
>it could be the Non-typical
>giant or a 22" 2x3.
>
>
>So Pro is right that you
>can never completely remove the
>genetic traits, but you can
>surely reduce and suppress them.
> In deer on the
>best units we are suppressing
>the best genetics by removing
>them from the herd before
>breeding is accomplished. In
>livestock we are suppressing the
>worst genetics. It isn't
>rocket science.
>
>-------------------------
>www.sagebasin.com
>-------------------------

I agree, it's only common sence, the whitetail boys alway cull the crap bucks first when aquiring a new ranch...

mark53656 · Oct 9, 2007

Possible solution as in some units in Idaho... general season 2 point tag or limited entry two point tag (depending upon herd health) with draw tags for the premium bucks.

Unfortunately have to put less pressure on our premium bucks so that they can maintain their genetic pressence in the herd. We all want the premium tags that are getting fewer especially with the mule populations sliding all across the west.

Bad news for us wanting to hunt for a 30+ mulie.

Dean Parisian · Oct 9, 2007

Coming from the idea that it might be best to allow these big brutes to have an opportunity to access the older mature does and doe groups every year, maybe the seasons as set need to be changed. What would well after the rut do to "your" hunting?

What a novel thought.

Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com

cabinfever · Oct 9, 2007

Pro and packout nailed it.Let me just add that there are alot of people who will hunt a unit like the pauns and complain about all the 22-24 inch four points. They surmise that if all these 24 inch 4 points aren't getting killed there must be a fair number of 30 inch 4 points. That statement could not be further from the truth. The truth is, most bucks will never be bigger than a 22-24 inch four point. There genes do not code to grow anything bigger. A 30 inch spread, several nontypical points, and over 40 inches of mass are rare genetic traits.
No rancher in his right mind would breed his cows to genticly inferior bull. Same concept applies with growing big bucks.
With the rise in "trophy hunters" in the last decade and the staggering amount of pressure these "big" bucks are getting, I'd say we have lessened the superior genetic gene pool on the pauns.
Oh, and don't forget the does can be a carrier of that gene to grow big knarly antlers.Thats why I'm not a big fan of doe permits.

Mike

bobcatbess · Oct 9, 2007

I GET A KICK OUT OF SOME OF YOU JOKERS!!!

SO YOU DON'T THINK SOME OF THE BIG STINKY BULLS WERE EVER A BIG 5 POINT HUH???

WTF ARE YOU THINKING???

A BIG TWO POINT DOING THE BREEDIN AIN'T A BAD THING IF HE'S PACKIN THE RIGHT GENETICS!!!

IF ITS A TWO POINT THATS BEEN NOTHING MORE THAN A TWO POINT ALL HIS LIFE NOW THATS A PROBLEM!!!

KILLING THE YEARLINGS AIN'T THE ANSWER EITHER!!!

MAKE THE WHOLE STATE 4 POINT OR BETTER!!!

WHEN A JACK-ASS IS CAUGHT SHOOTING A SUB 4 POINT FINE HIM 1,000,000.00,TAKE HIS HUNTING RIGHTS FOR LIFE,TAKE HIS WORTHLESS ATV'S,TAKE HIS TRUCK,TAKE HIS RIFLE,TAKE HIS BINO'S AND THROW HIS LOWLIFE ASS IN JAIL FOR 20 YEARS!!!

AS MUCH AS I HATE TO ADMIT IT THE 3 POINT OR BETTER PLAN JUST DOESN'T WORK WITH ALL THESE LOWLIFE LAW BREAKING TARDS!!!

ENFORCE THE ABOVE MENTIONED & IT WILL DAMN SURE WORK!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

old_man_of_the_hills · Oct 9, 2007

>A BIG TWO POINT DOING THE
>BREEDIN AIN'T A BAD THING
>IF HE'S PACKIN THE RIGHT
>GENETICS!!!

That may be so, but not even a biologist can tell the age of a deer without taking a look at the teeth, so such methods of management are worthless.

>WHEN A JACK-ASS IS CAUGHT SHOOTING
>A SUB 4 POINT FINE
>HIM 1,000,000.00,TAKE HIS HUNTING RIGHTS
>FOR LIFE,TAKE HIS WORTHLESS ATV'S,TAKE
>HIS TRUCK,TAKE HIS RIFLE,TAKE HIS
>BINO'S AND THROW HIS LOWLIFE
>ASS IN JAIL FOR 20
>YEARS!!!

Yes and they should do that to people who posted on this site and poached in Colorado too

---------------------------------------
This is my post

I've just pissed in my pants.......and nobody can do anything about it.

RACKMASTER · Oct 9, 2007

ITS TRUE NO BIG BUCKS LEFT.... SO PUT IN FOR SOMETHING ELSE NEXT YEAR OR STAY HOME.
RM

fin little · Oct 9, 2007

Nvdrhntr, What were the season dates back in 94? I cant remember what year they moved the rifle hunt from the 3rd week of oct to the current dates. On most years the rifle hunt is a poor indicater of the quality of bucks on the Pauns. The hunt almost always falls during the migration. There coming off the plateau but most are not on the mostly public winter range yet. There stuck in the middle . For the most part on private or in PJ jungles.Its a tough hunt and the fish&game needs to take the word premium off this hunt or cut the tags and make the dates later in Oct. IMO . The dates were changed back in the 90's to give the Alton land owners a crack at the deer and selling tresspass hunts before the herd migrated. Now days they have a CWMU and run thier own hunts during Sept. There is no reason not to change the rifle dates back. The current early season dates also keep 90 public tag holders from hunting a big part of the Pauns buck herd on most years. Good for Alton bad for the hunters dreams of finally hunting those famed Pauns bucks. Its almost cruel!As for the gene pool. The herd was near extinction in the 70's but those genes remained.

NVdrhntr · Oct 9, 2007

fin little,

I don't remember about the season dates in '94, however I do know that it wasn't at the same time as the general hunt.
I killed my deer down below.
you are right about the migration problem. We hunted on top opening morning this year and saw no bucks but tons of hunters.
the tag holders I was with saw nice bucks up there 5 days before the hunt but none opening morning. Of course all the 4 wheelers going up and down the roads for 3 days before the hunt couldn't have helped.
day 2 we went below and checked. hardly a track down there yet.
so the deer haven't moved off.
last year my father had the tag and hunted below opening and saw lots of deer.
this could be another whole discussion. What causes the deer to migrate off? does the weather play a role? or simply time of year?

NVdrhntr · Oct 9, 2007

Chippawapartners,

I wouldn't mind a post rut season myself.
But then you would have those who say we shouldn't be killing deer on the winter range.

well managed hunt of course

Packout · Oct 9, 2007

LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 09:15PM (MST)[p]Fin,
I am no expert on the early days of the Pauns, but wouldn't it be correct to assume that ALL classes of bucks were hunted/harvested. Hunters were not head-hunting like today, leaving inferior genes to breed. Back then all classes of bucks were hunted, thus the harvest was across the board and non-selective. The Pauns was shut-down due to the over harvest of all classes of bucks (and even many doe). Please correct me if I am wrong.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
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fin little · Oct 9, 2007

Nvdrhntr, I think they start off the top after the first hard freeze.Just my opinion. It works out to be about the same time every year. It got cold enough last week end.

conch · Oct 9, 2007

The Pauns deer migrate off within a five to ten day window every year. A good solid freeze in the high country does speed things up. But the deer move every year at about the same time, towards the end of the rifle hunt or just after. I spent today out in some of my favorite places on the Pauns. The deer are on the move. Mostly does for now, but the bucks will be shortly behind. I agree the Pauns rifle should be taken off the premium hunt designation. It's almost fraud in my opinion. Does anyone know about someone fairly high up in the Utah Fish & Game having a rifle tag for the Pauns this year? I would like to hear his thoughts on this issue. And for the record, I don't think the genes are gone. We just can't kill every four-year-old buck on easy, early season private land hunts and then turn around and cream the crop again in November using very effective methods like posse hunting. I would like to see the MDF stop sticking their head in the sand and address some issues on the Pauns. They are fully aware, but in my opinion place politics and cash crops before their Mission statement.
Sad state of affairs.

fin little · Oct 9, 2007

Packout, Thats true.although I dont remember shooting does. Maybe before my time. Its complicated. The herd does mix a little with the Kaibab herd on the winter range. Some of the herd also winters on a general unit with no selective harvest. I'm not a biologist or a rancher by any means.I know Its far from a controlled environment on a ranch .

mdh · Oct 9, 2007

Can anyone tell me when the Henry's rifle hunt starts? It is a premium unit also no?

I have some private land in the middle of the CWMU on the pauns and there was 50+ bucks and half 4 point type 2 days ago.

Imagine what is left on the CWMU..,

Public Hunters do not realize how bad they take it in the shorts on this hunt. IMO

Mick,

Dub · Oct 11, 2007

I've hunted the Pauns three times. First time was unbelieveable. Second time was very good, and this year was still pretty good, but didn't find a lot of giants. There were still quite a few there, but not like it's been in the past. Just need fewer hunters on the unit, and the big boys will return. It's getting better over the last few years. A lot of the bucks are attracted to the Alton unit because they manage for and attract big bucks. It's still a lot of fun.

Dub

bobcatbess · Oct 11, 2007

MAYBE WHEN Pro GETS ON THE DEER BOARD & GETS 10,000 MORE TAGS O.K.ED FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

NVdrhntr · Oct 17, 2007

well, the rifle hunt is over and it wasn't great. at least for those I know who had tags. 1 shot a 25" 5 x 3 on the next to last day. The other went without.
And as far as they saw, the deer never did migrate down.
it's time for dwr to move this hunt back at least a week, maybe 2 to give these rifle hunters a chance at these deer.
563 dollars for a nonresident "premium" tag. I don't think so.

TylerT · Oct 17, 2007

I have talked to a couple of guys who had the tag this year and they said it was a great hunt for them. My uncle took a nice 31 inch heavy horned buck down there not to long ago this year. I have been doing a lot of scouting around the area and I havent seen as many good bucks this year but there is still a lot of good 160 to 180 class bucks down there right now. Is your hunt still going on? I could show you a number of great bucks to harvest.