PROPOSED UTAH RULE CHANGE

[thebuckstopshere]

How many of you out there would support a rule in Utah that you can only turn back the same permit once? After one turn back you either take it, or leave it.

This would not prevent anyone from applying for points, but it would put an end to those "applying" every year and continually turning back permits.

Any thoughts?

 

[WARBIRDUM]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-08 AT 11:09AM (MST)[p]I would support a rule that no tag turn backs. An applicant draws he has to use it that same year no matter what.
Exception would be a serious medical reason.Death of a family member or Military duties and that is it.This could help odds for others waiting to draw tags maybe not much but it would help and that is what most are after improving draw odds so this would work.

 

[Antler1]

Ya, what warbirdum said!

 

[Founder]

I like Warbirdum's idea.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[ktc]

make that 3.

 

[blazingsaddle]

+4

 

[Hiker]

Make that 5! It shocks me UDWR didn't see that creating a mess when they started it to begin with. Maw Kettle keeps applying each year and has 14 points. Her son Billy puts in with her with his 4 points and now he has 9 points going into the draw. Hot dog they draw their tags.....Maw Kettle goes and turns her tag in and earns another point, now she has 15 and Billy goes huntin.....He has to wait 2 years before he can apply for a LE buck tag again. Wow, by then Maw will have 17 points and he will be going into the draw with 8....etc..

Hiker

Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[WARBIRDUM]

With all these proposed changes on improving odds this turning tags back in should have been at the top of the list long ago.I do know the DWR would lose money this could be the reason why they like the rule who knows?If an applicant does turn a tag back they do lose the license fee and application fee but they also get a point.At least make the rule if you do turn the tag back in you lose the point this would be a quick fix to applicants turning them back and increase odds a small amount for everyone waiting to draw.Yes they still give the same amount of permits out but I sure would like to see how many with max points vs. those without max points are turning these tags back in.That would be interesting and prove that this new rule could bump those with max out and let the next guys in line get the 50% of the permits sooner.Maybe the next rule to look at is if you apply as a party everyone in the party would need the same amount of points or you cant apply as a group.I know many would not like this rule but whats your thoughts on this also?Would this or could this improve odds?Just a thought.

 

[30buck]

why would it matter the next person in line gets the tag right. So who cares who hunts it. OR am i wrong and it doesn't work like that?

 

[WARBIRDUM]

30buck,
You are correct the next person in line gets the tag but does not get the same amount of time to scout.Most I would bet do not turn the tags back in until the week before the hunt opens if they do not find the size of animals they are after plus if those that turn the tags back in have max points and the tag goes to an applicant with lower points this will just take longer to get everyone out of the max pool.Everytime the max pool applicants lane is out this betters the odds for everyone.Those that have low points and draw most likely will never turn a tag back in they know they will most likely not get lucky and draw again so they just go hunt but those with max know they will have great odds again so they will just turn the permit back in.The way the rule is now will make it take so much longer to get everyone out of the max point pool which hurts odds to those waiting in line with 1 point under max and so on.If its all about improving odds this could help is all I am saying trying to get max points holders out of the game will improve odds for the next lane down and so on.I would like to know how many max point permits have been returned in the last 14 years if not that many than I guess this does not help odds much but I think max point holders on elk would be almost out of the system now.Who knows?I do not have the true facts to back what I think is happening but still think if you draw you should have to go hunt that year.I think its only fair to give the next guy in line that would have drew this permit some scouting time 2 days before a hunt opens you get a call asking if you want a permit that has been turned in and most would still be happy and take it but they would not get the time needed to scout its not fair if you ask me.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

I agree with warbirdum. I don't have any facts either, but I know there were/are a few people making money on how to beat the draw. Warbirdum is on to it. Lets say ten years ago (when there were plenty of people who knew what to do to beat the draw) someone decides to put their five relatives in for the draw and they are the only one that really hunts. This year that group of six would have 10 points. That is 10 ping pong balls in the lotto draw, or a gauranteed tag in many units. So they draw - hunter hunts - five relatives turn back tags and collect points for three more years. Three years from now, the group of five has 13 points and the hunter has 0. Average that and the group has 10 points again. Ten ping pong balls AGAIN with no penalty. Is that fair?

It may not be happening much, but I bet it is.

Asking 25 bucks for a hunting license is NOT going to stop the abuse.

I am sure it is happening more with Elk than with Deer.

I originally said one turn back - but it sounds like the masses want a hunt it or lose it approach (with a FEW exceptions).

Sounds good to me.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

AND PS - it aint like its money that wasn't well spent if you were utilizing this loophole, but you are just going to have to convince maw kettle (as hiker explained above) that it is in her best interest to actually hunt when she draws. One way or the other, slowly but surely, such a rule change may actually cycle a few people through.

Its really not that big a deal unless you are abusing the system. Like I said up front, people that want to collect points and not be in the draw have that option. It those that are in the draw but really just collecting points that are the issue.

 

[Pruney]

I agree with all with one major exception. Military deployment with a validated copy of Orders.

 

[WARBIRDUM]

Pruney,
I listed that and feel that if that happens those that get a Military deployment would also get a full re-fund also even the application fee.There should be no complaints about that from anyone.

 

[slcmuley]

I AM CURIOUS TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE STOP PUTTING IN THEIR RELATIVES MY GUESS IS PEOPLE WITH 6 PTS. OR MORE WILL CONTINUE BUT PEOPLE WITH FEWER PTS. WILL DROP OUT OF THE PTS.GAME NOW THAT THE PRICE HAS TRIPLED. ANY OTHER THOERIES OUT THERE? WAT ABOUT THE NON RES.?

 

[bragabit]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-08 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]I don't really have a problem with the rule as is with the exception that if you draw as a group you ALL hunt or ALL turn tags back. The alternate that is called is not obligated to take the tag. There are a lot of things can come up that could ruin your lifetime hunt. IE sickness you or family, job transfer, or loss. Lots of things can change from January to October. I don't think they have a problem finding a replacement. I don't agree with Nevada and Arizona's philosaphy that you don't return tags unless you die or are activated. It would be terrible to wait 15 years to draw your dream tag and have a wife become seriously ill and not be able to go and lose all of your points.

Does someone that turns a tag back also get the tag fee back? I would be against returning the tag fee.

 

[antlerrick]

I like the proposed rules as mentioned above, and I think that if a group draws, only one person is allowed to turn back a tag and only if there is a legitimate reason, i.e. death in family, illness, military, etc.

 

[Layemdown]

You can turn in your tag for no reason at all (or a made up reason) and get your points back. But you cannot be refunded unless you are deployed, injured, or something serious like that. This past season I turned in my general southern region tag, so I could go with my brother on his Bookcliffs hunt. I didn't get my money back, but I received a preference point, just as if I had not drawn. Now, Obviously there is a big difference between general tags and LE tags, I think the rules should be very specific and strict when it comes to working the system as many have.


Layemdown

"Vegetables are not food, vegetables are what food eats!!"