Just an idea for utah

[broadfork]

This is my first post on this site, although I have been reading all your posts for awhile. As everyone on this site knows utahs deer are in trouble. I know not everyone on here is a trophy hunter, but what would you guys think if they made the general rifle hunts 4 point or better. I know that will piss off some people. I just think there is no reason for a grown man to have to shoot a 2 point because he has a permit to do it.

I think that any one 18 and younger should be able to kill any buck they see. But I have started to feel this way a couple years ago, when I started really takeing this deer hunting thing seriously. I have killed a few small bucks too. But anyone that has killed a decent deer knows it's so much more rewarding. My point here is if you go to a place like Wallsburg on opening day in the central region, you will see an orange army that shoots anything on it's head because most guys know a good buck is a rare thing.

If we don't shoot every little deer than they just might grow up. That means more deer survive, and Utah can still sell the heck out of the deer tags. It's a win win. I think it wouldn't take more than a couple years to see a difference, and it would alow more opportunity in years to come. If you don't agree it would, than go up to the wasatch extended archery unit and see what not killing every 2 point can do. Just an Idea.

 

[ktc]

broad,

I totally agree with your observations. However, 4+ or better won't cut it. I disagree that lots of tags sold is a winning situation. Nothing short of micro-managing and tag cuts will get it done IMO. Maybe other solutions will work, but I do not see it. For 15 years nothing we have tried has worked.

I think your feelings are among the majority and that something has to happen.

 

[HuntinFoo]

I agree something needs to be done, but it wont happen. Its all about the money in Utah, the fish and game do not care about the wildlife, as much as the all mighty dollar. Their are a number of things that could help the hunting, 4 point or better is a good idea, I also agree with micro managing, and lower tag numbers, almost anything is better than the system we have now. I would even pay twice the money for a tag and hunt only every other year if it meant I would have a chance at a mature buck instead of 1 1/2 yr old. But I don't think anything will ever happen the sportsman have wanted change for the last 10 years but the fish and game haven't listened yet, I don't see why they ever will as long as they are bring in the money. We will have to put a stop to that before anything happens. Just my opinion!

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

+1 ktc

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[muzzhunter]

I agree with the above posts. The first thing that needs to happen is the money for hunting permits, fishing liscences etc. needs to stay in the Wildlife Division. Instead it goes into the general fund then they do the budget and from there they allocate however much they can spare back to the Wildlife Division. Isn't that they way it works? That way it might be better managed instead the state has to get it's money so it has a lot of the say in the way things are run. They won't cut tags cause then they wouldn't get as much green. They don't care what is best for the deer, elk, sportsman...... I think they need to micro-manage the elk severly outside of the L.E. units. Just my opinion.

 

[3Toes]

The DWR is a very easy target and the money issue always comes up. But the sportsman in Utah manage the deer herds. It isn't the Wildlife Board or the DWR. The sportmans hold all of the management tools in their hands. We just have to stop using them. By that I mean just stop shooting the deer.

How many times have you heard a hunter say " I'm tired of shooting two points, why doesn't the DWR do something".

Its all about the money because they sell so many tags --- My question is why do we have to fill them. If it isn't a deer your going to be proud of, or are going to belly ache to everyone about let it live.

If you like the meat, great - take the shot, but don't squack about the quality of bucks with a two point in the truck every year.

I don't like state imposed restrictions because young and new hunters, or any hunter for that matter, should be able to shoot any buck they can put legally in their sights. But I have to bite my lip everytime a see a middle age man sitting on the tailgate of his truck. Talking about the good old days of big bucks and bitching about the DWR, and about how he had to shoot this two point because it was the only buck he saw.

Just let them walk.

We have the power, just stop shooting the deer. And if you decide to shoot, then you are accepting the current status of the herds so keep your mouth shut.

We don't need more rules, we just need better sportsman.

Do the math if 25% of those that were unhappy about the two point they shot last year, decided not to pull the tigger. What would our herds look like. Probably not great, but better.

IMHO--If your just going to bad mouth the current state of affairs you better have tied your tag to a buck you want to show off, or have an un-used tag. If neither of those apply then you are supporting the current activities and keep your mouth shut. Because your part of the problem!!!!!!!

 

[tbone30]

the two best states in the west for producing B&C mule deer over the past 10 years are colorado and wyoming. what do they have in common that utah does not? micro-managed units. utah has tried to implement this in the past, but the sportsmen( including SFW) were opposed to this. WHY? come on utards, let's give it a shot.

 

[broadfork]

I agree that the money is an issue. I don't think the DWR is getting fat on it however. I just think that if Utah was to improve the quality of our herd, not only would the #'s come back. But Utah would probably make more money because out of state hunters would have more motivation to hunt here, and their tags cost a whole lot more.

 

[3Toes]

Musshunter, By way of information -- The law enforcement section and the non-game sections are funded through general funds. The other management sections are paid for through a number of sources, the biggest of which is hunter fees and federal funds. Our license and tag fees go back to the DWR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We buy a tag for the opportunity to hunt. We as hunters have the power to kill or let an animal live. If we shoot then we shouldnt complain, we have shown our support of the current management.

I actually agree with the micro management of Utah's deer herds because I know that many, not most, hunters have no self control. "Get my deer every year, wish the DWR would do something I'm tired of shooting two points".

Just let them walk ....... and if you don't you have shown your support of the current status.

 

[muzzhunter]

Thanks for the correction 3toes.

Just let them walk ....... and if you don't you have shown your support of the current status.

+1

 

[doityourself]

Just like everyone else, I agree. Point restriction is not the answer, unfortunately. They tried that on the wellsvilles and people shot other bucks and left them.

Micro-manage, cut tags,(increase prices if you have to), create permanent feeding stations, increase dedicated hunter tags, (most dedicated hunters let 'em walk).

Speaking of the dedicated hunter system, I wonder if we made it mandatory for all hunters to do service each year to get their tags. Maybe then we would see less trash in the backcountry, on the roadsides and campgrounds. I have wondered why someone can't pack out their kipper snacks tin, or snickers wrapper????

 

[Bucks4brains]

Tbone - I agree with you that Colorado and Wyoming are producing more trophy class Mule Deer than any other state in the west, but it's for different reasons. Wyoming does not micro-manage like Colorado. A resident can hunt anywere in the state that they wish( except limited entry units) in Wyoming, only the non-residents are some what micro managed. Wyomings key to succses is LOTS OF PUBLIC LANDS.

I agree that Utah should micro-manage like Colorado, but it will not happen, Why? Becouse the $$$$$$ is more important than letting the resident hunter have a quality hunting experience every three to five years. If there were a micro-managed system in Utah, than there would not be units like the Henry Mtns, that bring in the huge $$$$$$ at the sportsman fund raising events.

Hey! Where does all that $$$$$ go anyway?

 

[bamacpl]

4pt or better!!!

I don't see why anyone would even want to shoot a 2 pt!

 

[RandallT]

Amen 3toes. I agree the whole blame game needs to stop. Lets band together as sportsman, spread the word and stop shooting the young bucks. I think together we could make a difference in our herd long before the fish and game could. Don't get me wrong I believe the deer management on a state level should be updated, but lets take it on our shoulders and do something NOW! By the way I hunt the wasatch with my bow, and it is a different world up there than anywhere else in the state because of the sportsman. I don't know if I've ever seen a deer smaller than a 3 point shot up there. LET THE YOUNG ONES LIVE!

 

[Daxter]

Success rates for UT deer hunters are about 33%. Reducing harvest will bring buck numbers and buck age classes up faster than anything. How you reduce that harvest is the tricky part. I just don't think appealing to hunters conscience is going to do much. Tags sell out faster and faster every year, the demand for muley hunting opportunites is higher than ever. Many so called "trophy hunters" regularly shoot yearling bucks so as to not go home empty handed. You have to provide an more immediate incentive to hunters to not shoot that two point on the last weekend. Maybe free admission and one free application at the hunt expo for every unfilled deer tag? One idea I heard was a tag that was good for two years, but only valid for one deer. If you shoot the first year you sit out the next year, that might reduce harvest some. Maybe you could have a one year waiting period for all successful general season deer hunters with mandatory reporting?

The only tried and true method for reducing harvest is reducing tag numbers, but the DWR operates almost completely on revune generated by the sale of tags and licenses so that is a hard sell. It is time to get creative and think of some new ideas.

Dax

 

[ktc]

I disagree on the let them walk thing. I do it, but why dictate the size? With a healthy herd with appropriate tag numbers people can have their choice, big or small or medium. Who cares? If we issue more tags than bucks, like....say.....97k, then to get older deer we need to let them walk. People cannot and will not let them go. You hear it first few days and as the hunt wears on the small ones die.

 

[3Toes]

People have mentioned Colorado and Wyoming as producing the most and best bucks. What these two state have in common is a revenue source outside of mule deer. Wyoming runs the majority of the G&F on out of state antelope tags and general elk tags. Colorado does the same with out of state elk. It is very easy to micro-manage a species that is not your main revenue source.

So what about Utah. The DWR is for the most part an enterprise fund. Which is a form of a governmental business. They project revenue trends and can't spend outside of those projects. Just like any good business.

Like any good business they research their client and set price points. They basically have two strategies regarding mule deer because that is their main revenue source. Limit tags and up price. Or keep price lower and sell more tags. Every business faces these same choices. To add another element these prices have to approved by a governmental body, not just the DWR.

The general fund is another option, but is limited by many restrictions. I have heard many posts against SFW and SFH, but they have been the most successful organization at bringing public general fund money into wildlife management. Usually in the form of habitat improvement.

For many years hunters paid for tweety bird management. Now it is paid for by general fund money as a resource of the general population. How would you feel if they were currently using your tag money to manage songbirds.

It will be difficult for Utah to micro the entire state of Utah for mule deer. Small specific areas yes, but the entire state will be tough. Wyoming and Colorado can do it because they don't rely as heavily on their mule deer revenue.

It all comes back to sportsman letting the animals grow to maturity. I would rather see a JUST LET THEM WALK sticker in the back of a vehicles window then any of the other hundreds of hunter window stickers.

I'll say it again. We have the power, the choice is ours.

 

[gundog]

Antler restrictions have seemed to work in SE Idaho (previously 2 pt only, not 4 pt only in unit 73 for example) in the sense that it certainly does affect age class. I don't know how much it really would enhance the overall quality of hunt. My biggest problem with the UT deer hunts are the sheer number of hunters on public lands in the Norther Region. I like the idea that youth could shoot any buck--but I afraid that would encourage party hunting and frankly I don't know that I would really want to take him on the general deer rifle hunt in my area.

Utah could enhance deer hunting by going setting up well-defined hunt areas and increasing the objectives above 22 bucks per 100 doe. Loss of revenue in tag reductions could be offset by non-resident fees if the hunting were actually brought up to par (or better) with Colorado and I am convinced that this might even help overall population numbers on some important public land areas (even though UDWR will vehemently deny this). Wyoming doesn't restrict residents (yet) but they have fewer hunters, more deer, and probably more deer excapement. I think UT has awesome potential for deer hunt quality.

 

[HuntinFoo]

I myself have never shot a 2 point in my life, my first buck was a 3 point, and now I wont shoot anything but a 4 point or better. So I guess that means I can complain, because I am not shooting the 2 points. I agree that their are a lot of people that do shoot yearling's and still complain, and as mentioned above why would a grown man even want to shoot a 2 point, it is 10 times more work to take care of a deer than a 2 point is worth. It was also said why shoot it unless it is something you want to show off, another great outlook. One of the sad things about utah general hunts is that a 20 inch 4 point is coveted and shown off like a trophy. And nothing is wrong with that because it is a trophy in utah general areas. But you look at colorado and wyoming, and if someone shoots a 20 4 point in most of their areas they hide it and dont tell anyone what they shot. Now you tell me what the problem is here. I agree that one of the best things we could do is micro manage, but the tag numbers would also need to be lowered. I may be wrong here but what I have heard is that Utah funds its wildlife programs 100% by tag sales revenue, where most other western states also get tax dollars from the state to help along with tag sales. The way I see it this is one of the main reasons that states like colorado and wyoming sale less tags and produce more mature bucks. Some might say it is the price, but a resident of those states pays way less for their tag than we do as utah residents. Yes a nonresident tag cost a lot more than the resident tag does, but those states have something that that makes it worth the price for a nonrse to by an out of state tag, DEER, AND NOT ONLY YEARLING BUCKS!!!!

 

[DallanC]

>I just think there is
>no reason for a grown
>man to have to shoot
>a 2 point because he
>has a permit to do
>it.


>But anyone that has killed
>a decent deer knows it's
>so much more rewarding.


IMO, you hunt for all the wrong reasons. Its sad this mentality is becoming more and more prevelant.


-DallanC

 

[ktc]

Dallan,

I kind of agree. People should be able to hunt for the meat, big horns, little horns, to get out or whatever. I do not like putting restrictions on size. I would not say shooting big deer is the wrong reason any more than a little one is the wrong reason. I do not want another dink and I have not shot a 2 point for many, many, many years. Nor will I ever again. I am not opposed to someone shooting a small deer. My daughter may do just that this year? Not sure? I am NOT telling her what to shoot and what to pass.

What would be nice is to have plenty of deer, managed correctly, to appease meat hunters, recreational hunters, head hunters and all other kind of hunters.

Utah must cut tags to reach the trophy guys. I also say don't cut out the meat guy. There is a balance somewhere and it is not more tags than bucks. The DWR must define the goals and objectives and put that priority #1. The biggest gripe I have is if someone wants more deer or trophies people cannot give up the October family reunion. It is about herd health not any other reason? I just don't think habitat and predator control is the only answer. It helps, but the desired results are still way off after 15 years.

 

[broadfork]

DallanC

you say that I hunt for all the wrong reasons. I could not disagree more. i hunt because like you I'm sure, I love the challenge of it. I love the animal I pursue. And like a lot of guys I think that a mature mule deer buck on the ground, on public land is an accomplishment. I personnally don't think a 1 1/2 year old on the ground is. especially with a rifle.

I love the meat, and a 2 point tastes just as good to me as a 30 inch trophy. but how is it sport to sit on a ridge and the first nieve 2 point to get pushed to you by the orange army, gets dumped.

I bow hunt, I rifle hunt each offers it's own challenge. I just think it is a REAL challenge if you let the deer get old enough to avoid hunters. when that happens it's a hunt.

the trophy I guess is in the hunt

 

[HuntinFoo]

+1 broadfork
To me the hunt is about the challenge, and satisfaction it brings when you are successful, and we all know their is no challenge in shooting a 2 point year after year. It might be for a first time hunter but after taking one you standards should go up, otherwise its just killing not hunting. For those of you who just want to kill, buy your deer tag and throw it in the garbage, that way you save a yearling bucks life. Then you can go out and shoot all the jack rabbits and prairie dogs you want. And we all know that no one in their right mind hunts just for the meat anymore. If you were to figure out what it cost per pound for deer meat I bet on the cheep side it would be at least $25 a pound, you can get some dang good stuff at Wal-Mart for that price. That price wouldnt include the time, or hard work that goes into the hunt either.

 

[slcmuley]

what are the total deer tag #'s in other states?

 

[doityourself]

I don't think it's fair to put point restrictions on the animals. There are too many different types of hunters, meat and trophy, etc....

The problem lies in the revenue, like it was mentioned earlier the DWR needs money to run, that money is received from the sale of tags. Why not trim down some of the tag numbers, issue more dedicated hunter tags, where you can only take 2 deer in 3 years, and most dedicated hunters pass anyways. Protect more of the deer in the winter by feeding them on permanent feeding stations to keep them away from the cars. Dedicate more areas to micro-management. I would love to see the North Cache turned into a micro-managed area, and I hunt it every year. It has some world class genetics and I fully believe if given the chance could produce some of the biggest deer we have seen for a long time. I love the idea of turning in unused tags for some kind of reward. Genius! Or we could gut shoot all the guys who shoot the little buck! That seems to be a popular idea????!!!!

 

[ktc]

diy,

I do not agree with special regulations to suit one type of hunter like telling someone how many points their deer must have. I do not agree with "rewarding" an unused tag either. I can see your logic, but to "reward" someone for not shooting a deer makes no sense to me. It sounds like we have a "right" to shoot one every year? Also, no more dedicated tags. Again a special interest deal. Make a deer tag a deer tag and issue tag numbers according to a well thought out plan in micro units. I see no reason to over complicate things.

 

[gundog]

DIY has it right.

Like I said earlier, if UT could bring hunt quality up to par (or better) revenue lost to tag reductions could be made up in NR fees. I don't think we are selling quota of NR tags throughout UT (may southern regions, but you'd have to have hole in head to pay NR fees to hunt public lands in northern UT. In fact I am very stupid to pay dedicated hunter fees to hunt northern UT--but I look at it is throwing money away for what should be good cause.

 

[byron]

I am the first to admit I don't know much about managing deer herds, but common sense tells me if we want the quality of hunting in Utah to increase we need to decrease tag numbers. If that is a problem for the DWR and their finances they could double the price. I don't make alot of money but I would still pay ninety bucks to go deer hunting. If we were to cut the tags that would mean I might not be able to hunt every year, and that would be o.k. It would just force me to hunt out of state which I should be doing anyways. Just my own selfish opinion because I would rather have a quality hunt every other year.

 

[tbone30]

I 'm curious about the idea of more dedicated hunter tags. If you increase the number of dedicated hunter tags, wouldn't you in effect be decreasing the number of deer harvested each year? Are the 10,000 DH tags part of the 97,000 or are they additional? They need to be part of the count, if they are not. Why the 10,000 cap anyway? DH pay more per year than a general tag, so it can't be a revenue issue. I would love to see more DH and less hours required( that is a different story for a different post).

 

[blazingsaddle]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-08 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-08 AT 02:15?PM (MST)

I think that there is room for improvement with Utahs deer herds but I have to say that I think there are many many big deer being taken each year in Utah on General units. With a little home work, they can be found every year.
Its a tough issue with the deer being the states engine. If we don't give the average hunter oppertunities every year, they will loose interest. What about the guys just getting into the sport? Tell them they can hunt very other year? We as sportsmen, cannot afford to loose hunters. We all complain that there are to many hunters in the field every year, but we can't afford to loose them, either.
What about 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rifle seasons? Such as Colorado is doing? In my oppinion, they are the best example to follow. I like the idea of micro managing the state. Maybe not 50 different regions, but more like the 25 that has been proposed before. I am also for an increase in tag price and mandatory harvest reports.
No more DH hunters, though. I know its off the thread, but the DH program is not following its intended suit. To many dads and brothers signing up so they can all hunt with Jr. whose under the age of 18. I personally think they should up the hours and price. Weed out the casuals. Just my 2 cents

 

[Hunterted]

The biggest threat to hunting in Utah are hunters who are selfish. They are willing to cut participation and support for the sport they love so that they don't have to hunt for a respectable buck.

Utah is changing and less and less of the population are hunters and there will be a time where hunting, trapping, fishing etc won't be supported as well as they are now. There was a time where nearly every institution in the state scheduled around the opening day of the deer hunt. Enjoy what support you have, it will change and you all will be sorry.

The holy'er then though, me and my species first attitude is bad for the sport.

 

[gundog]

Hunterted,

I agree that there are many selfish motivations in most management proposals, but respectfully disagree with your assertion that our hunting future depends on unlimited deer hunting opportunity. Has interest in UT elk hunting diminished because it is now a minimum of five years (actually much longer) between tags diminished? Not hardly. How does a young kid get interested in hunting? Kicking cowpies? I don't think so. They get interested by hunting ducks, pheasants, an occasional goose, maybe a cow elk hunt, and maybe a chance at a nice buck. Just because you drag a kid out deer hunting every year doesn't mean they are going to like it. If my early hunting days were limited to the kind of deer hunting I have in UT--I wonder if I would be hunting at all? I really think it needs to be broader. Cow elk are probably one of our best youth hunt opportunties right now--and that is a by-product of quality management. Thats my perspective.

 

[Hunterted]

It isn't about unlimited deer hunting it is about principles.

It is about the reason the person is hunting, its about the principles behind the hunting regulations. If your only reason to hunt is to kill a giant buck and if that is the focus of Utah sportsman, then hunting will loose its support that it has had.

It should be about responsible management of a resource and passing on a tradition, its about the chase, and about the hunt, but the size of the antler and how easy or hard it was to shoot the animal isn't what it should be about.

Utah's population is changing and the more the focus becomes on shooting a book buck then the more us sportsmen will loose support.

 

[RandallT]

KTC
I agree with you that we cant control what deer people shoot. I think the youngsters should have a crack at whatever deer they want. And I know people that are less avid than us on MM will probably never here anything about what we chat about in these forums. I guess all I'm saying is, let's us as responsible sportsman let the smaller deer walk. If we have a first timer with us that wants whatever buck cross' his path, fine. But I think we can make a difference if we attempt to educate those long time "shoot anything with horns" type hunters and get them up to speed of whats happening with our herds. I spend alot of time watching hunting shows where they hunt on managed property for trophy deer. And from everything I've learned from these shows is that self-restraint is the key to having opportunities to harvest mature animals. By passing up the young deer increases the overall age of the bucks in the herd, giving hunters better opportunities at older deer. But, of course tag reductions are definitely in order also.

 

[RandallT]

I agree with you also Hunterted. I personally am not all about the horns, nor the kill. But the reality is that young deer are not as smart as the older bucks are much easier to harvest. (especially with guns) If we keep slaughtering these young buck we will not have enough bucks to have a balanced herd. Which means the few buck that do make it will be running themselves ragid trying to breed all the does, and eventually become a victim of winter kill because they have nothing left to live on. A balanced herd is a healthy herd, with plenty of bucks to keep the genes going, and still survive through the harsh winters.