buck to doe ratio

F

frednfrog

Guest
Are there any biologist on MM that could educate me on what is a healthy buck to doe ratio for mule deer? Was hunting with my son this weekend and saw 20 some does in two days and no bucks at all. I know that most of them are still in thier bachelor groups and the big ones are still laying low but even the yearlings seem to be all does. I'm just wondering if NMDGF started allowing a few doe hunts for youth or more ES achery hunts if it would improve the deer herds here in New Mexico?
 
There are many biologists that frequent these forums, and about a gillion self-proclaimed "Pros" You're likely to get a thousand different opinions, so I guess I'll be the first.

For one, don't be tempted to apply buck:doe ratios from your own observations from one weekend in October to the unit or the state, for the reasons you already describe.

Buck doe ratios are important, but the idea of killing does to improve the ratio of bucks doesn't really track. Fewer does just means fewer deer- it really is that simple. NM allows ES archery hunts for elk (in addition to many many cow tags), because elk herds in NM are almost universally at or above desired levels. These have been pretty well studied and are based on elk biology, social factors (depredation), hunter oportunity, etc. Even so, you'd find hundreds of folks who would argue they kill too many or not enough in this area or that, often plenty of folks who would argue both points for the same area.

We do hunt a few does in areas where we have a lot of depredation issues (crop damage), but few would argue that NM (or the west) has too many mule deer anywhere.

Managing bucks and bulls is really kind of a seperate deal. In general the higher the buck ratio the better- for a lot of reasons. Most reasearch says 12(bucks):100(does) is about the threshhold where you start having issues with does not being bred or being bread by yearlings, or too many does being bred in the second estrus which causes other problems. Others might tell you my numbers are off a few points here (and I wouldn't argue with them too loudly). At these levels, hunters will notice that the vast majority of deer harvested are forkeys. Some areas in NM are managed for a much higher ratio fron 22:100 to 30:100 and it basically requires far fewer buck tags being issued to do it. It will improve the distribution of bucks throughout age class. Fewer hunters = more big bucks.

Along this line, one would think an unhunted population of deer would ultimately have buck to doe ratios approaching 100:100. Not the case. For one, bucks start tearing each other up pretty bad during the rut. The rut makes for a hard winter for a buck anyway. Bucks (especially big bucks) are more susceptible to lion predation because of their solitary nature.

I've posted what I thought was a pretty good condensation of several studies done on point restrictions (and why they don't work) on this site, but it generated little interest. Many have the intuition that a 3-point restriction would improve the number of mature bucks out there, but the sad truth is it has the oposite effect. We've tried it here in NM recently, and I'm glad they gave it up. Forcing all 50K deer hunters to take mature bucks is not the way to go, and forkeys are not mature deer. The sad truth of nature is that only a small percentage of wild animals make it to adulthood, whether we decide to shoot them or not.

Beware the new pill that allows you to loose weight without watching your diet and excercising. Managing mule deer is basically the same. Land development, Habitat, drought, suppressed fire, historic cattle grazing practices (not to poke at current cattlemen), and yes, predator control are what effect mule deer populations the most. NM tries to maintain some areas for a more quality hunt, other areas for more oportunity to go hunting, they try to mix in ways to keep youth in the hunting game and they try to affect positive changes to the habitat, but you'd be hard pressed to find any single person who thinks they do a good job of doing all of it in all places.

That's my opinion, I've been at this enough to know there will be other posts to follow who'll tell you I'm full of crap.
 
Kysersosay, that is a great post.

Not much more to add, except to underscore the importance of not shooting doe to bring us to a higher buck to doe ratio. Can't shoot the mamas if we want any kind of herd in the future. Shooting doe should only occur when herds are over population objectives or in extreme cases of depredation.

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www.sagebasin.com
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AS packout STATED!!!

JUST BECAUSE THE BUCKS HAVE BEEN OVER HUNTED!!!

DON'T PULL A "Pro" PLAN OR A DWR PLAN AND SHOOT THE PISS OUT OF THE FEMALES JUST TO GET RATIO'S BACK IN LINE!!!

GOOD GAWD THAT STUPID $HIT HAS/IS ALREADY BEEN TRIED HERE IN TARDVILLE & I CAN ASSURE YOU IT HAS FAILED MISERABLY!!!

IT TAKES MORE THAN A CALCULATED BUCK TO DOE RATIO TO HAVE A HEALTHY HERD!!!

EVER THINK OF CUTTING BACK ON 6 MONTHS OF CONTINUOUS & OVERLAPPED HUNTING PRESSURE/HUNTS???

bobcat OVER & OUT!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
I am an expert Utah Deer Heard Biologist. Acording to our years of research despite lack of funding, We have come to the conclusion that 1 buck for every 500 does is more then enough to not only maintain an extremely healthy heard, but also provide dream trophy hunting for every one!!

Everyone here in Utah should be very proud for what we are doing!
 
General unit objectives in Utah are for 15-20 bucks/100 does. I still haven't figured out why they have 20 buck maximum per 100 does. If we get over 20 bucks do we get to have extra hunting days to get the herds back into objective ? We can only hope that we could ever get to 20 bucks/100 does on a general unit.LOL
Sometimes I wonder why there isn't just as much concern and effort put into bringing up the doe numbers to objective. If the herd numbers were at objective, I think we would see buck doe ratios close to 20/100.
 
The real problem is that they need accurate counts to work on any objective.

In Utah the counts are not accurate. Not even close.
 
You have performed you own scientifically documented counts that contradict the numbers stated by the UDWR then?
 
Do you recall in 1994 ( I think it was '94 )when all of the doe tags were cancelled after the general deer hunt ended?

Another year when the "deer had come through the winter better than expected".

They approved all of the tags and only cancelled them after the public outcry of how few deer were actually available.

That may seem like ancient history but it shows how accurate the counts are.


The deer did not winter well this year either. Yes, there are bright spots. I am talking about the general condition of the statewide herd.

Their counts are not scientific. Often they are optomistic "best guesses".
 
Fred there are many huge bucks in the greater southwest nm. u just have to look in the forest not at the forest. good luck my friend
 

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