Where do they go?

[lgriffiti]

I have a bit of a dilemma...

I have an area that I have hunted nearly all of my life. The past 5-6 years, we've seen and noted a number of nice bucks (24"-28") type of bucks...not monsters but respectable. Everyone within my group is seriouos hunter. By that, I mean we don't drop the trigger on just anything with the hope of getting the opportunity at something better. In otherwords, we don't shoot this type of deer and usually eat "tag soup" without complaints, hoping that these "nice" bucks will grow into something better. Also, the area doesn't seem to get much pressure and not many bucks are taken. I should also add that these bucks don't appear to be old - 3-4 at the most. The number of bucks of this type is good.

My question is why don't we see anything better? I believe that genetic potential is there as we have taken nice bucks in the past. I would love to hear some opinions.

-lgriffiti

 

[TFinalshot]

tough to say without more specific information about the location, i.e., mtn range, or area of a state. hunting pressure, habitat, poaching, predation, roads, all could be a factor. . .

Older bucks like to hang on their own after the rut, if you have cats it's likely the as the bucks get older and more dominant they tend to isolate themselves more, cats love a nice 4-5-6 year old bucks, they can be relatively easy pry because they live in the rocks, and alone. . .

Anyhow, there could a bunch of reason, ever try calling the local/area game biologist, he/she many know exactly what's going on. . .

Tony

www.tonybynum.com

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).

 

[completesportsman]

Okay first we need to know WHERE exactly is this area????

 

[dleonard3]

You guys are probably looking for the good bucks in the typical hiding places - timber, and thick brush. According to my experience this year, sometimes the biggest bucks will bed down right out in the open where nobody looks for them. Also, the big bucks seem to hold tight, even when a hunter gets close. Experienced bucks are completely nocturnal, but if you're looking in the exact right place at first or last light, you might get lucky and spot one of these better bucks. It's not likely, but it is possible. Keep in mind that a buck that has lived through 6-8 years of hunting pressure has figured out that vehicles, horses, and hunters walking all make noise, and they don't ignore these noises. They listen very intently to the world around them and they know when you're there.

Most of these things go out of the window during the rut, so if you're seeing bigger bucks in the are during the rut, you know they're there somewhere. The problem is that the bucks know you're there too.

 

[ADDICT]

+1 on the lions TFinalShot. Do you know where the deer from the area winter? Go look for fresh sheds and that could give you a little insight to what you're chasing in there.

Oh yeah, and when you actually get a chance at an older, "big" buck, DON'T MISS!

 

[lgriffiti]

Thanks for the input. A bit more information...
1. This is not something unique to this year but really a general, overall pattern that I've noticed over the past 50-10 years.
2. The area is public land but in rugged enough as to keep the ATVs and casual hunters away. If you shoot something, it will come out on your back.
3. I have suspected that the bucks are falling to lions. We certainly see kills on a regular basis. However, we also find a number of nice drops in the area.
4. My suspicion is that the bigger bucks go nocturnal but I really don't know how to verify. Maybe it's time for a trail cam or 2.
5. Deer numbers seem to be up. We typically see 80-100 head/day with 5+ good bucks (lots of the little ones).

Again, thanks for the input. It gives me something to think about waiting for next year :>)

-lgriffiti

 

[cabinfever]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-08 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]>My question is why don't we see anything better? I believe >that genetic potential is there as we have taken nice bucks in >the past. I would love to hear some opinions.

A basic grasp of genetics will give you the answer. Most 24 inch 4 points don't have the genetic material to grow bigger antlers.....record book antlers.Yes, they put on some mass as they get older but not much else.

Look at some of the speacial draw areas that limit tags in order to grow bigger bucks. These areas have a pretty good carry over of 24 inch 4 points. So how come these bucks don't turn into 28 inch or 30 inch bucks the following year. It all comes back to genetics.

How many people have you met that are over 7 ft tall. I'd wager very few. It's a rare genetic trait in humans. It's no different with deer. Very few deer have the genetic material to grow record book antlers

Ever wonder why the world record typical Burris buck at 226 has not been broken in 36 years, and the world record non typical Broder buck at 355 has not been broken in almost a century. Genetics!Hunting certainly plays a role as well.How many potential world record bucks have been killed as yearling bucks?Most never get to reach their full potential.

Mike

 

[sageadvice]

If you're getting around and covering the country yet not seeing the bigger toad bucks during the rut, IMO, they're just not there and you need to look elseware. That said, often a monster and his does can be found down lower in a deeper ravine that most will not take the time to walk into and really check out. Even if you can't hunt them then, looking and seeing what the country can produce, is best done when the rut is full on.

Good luck!
Joey

 

[lgriffiti]

I completely get your point about genetics and, frankly, I put in for premium units every year. I'm not looking for B&C bucks here...don't think the area has that type of potential. My dilemma is that these 3-4 year old, 140"-170" bucks seem to simply dissappear. I watch them for a couple of years and just about the time that things start getting interesting, the bucks are gone and new, smaller ones, replace them and the cycle continues...

FYI - I was told by a B&C scorer a while back that a muley with B&C potential will have a fully developed, 4-pt rack the first year that he has antlers. I don't know the truth of that statement but it stopped me from shooting small 4-pts...I don't want to kill the next "Burris" buck when he is a 2-year old :>)

Thanks for the input!

 

[cabinfever]

>FYI - I was told by a B&C scorer a while back that a muley >with B&C potential will have a fully developed, 4-pt rack the >first year that he has antlers.

I think there is some truth to that statement. The samson buck that was killed on the strip was estimated to be 4 years old and he scored 290 something.

>I watch them for a couple of years and just about the time >that things start getting interesting, the bucks are gone and >new, smaller ones, replace them and the cycle continues...

A 3 year old deer has made it through 3 seasons of hunting and predation. They become more and more weary with age.You likely watched the bucks during the summer when they were more in the open. As the season starts and they rub their velvet they change their patterns significantly. Many times they become almost nocturnal and don't move unless they are pushed. I also agree with other posts that they move down lower or move off into an adjoining canyon where there is thicker cover.

 

[Hornhog2]

Griffiti, I have the same frustrations with the area I hunt in. For the past 6-7 years, I have watched deer numbers along with buck numbers increase in this area. It is no problem to see 2-3 year old bucks year in and year out. I won't shoot anything unless it has some age. And I've eaten my tag two years straight. I don't mind, but as hard as I hunt, I can't seem to turn something with some age. I certainly buy the nocturnal bit, since our trail cams say so. And with age comes experience. I think the older bucks are just good at what they do. Staying alive...

 

[gb22]

The older ones are good at staying alive....but they also live more in the rocks than do the other deer. Look in the most gosh-awful stuff you can find....long and hard.



Within the shadows, go quietly.

 

[lgriffiti]

gb22 --

You bring up a good point (though I suspect this is not quite what you were thinking)....

We are in the most rugged, nasty remote part of this unit. I guess it is possible that the bucks that we are seeing ARE the best in the area, having moved in from other areas due to pressue.

More stuff to investigate for next season! I really do appreciate the responses.

 

[gemstatejake]

They dig holes and go to china! I'm convinced of it!


Seriously......this is the kind of question that can drive you? bat-$hit crazy..........mature mule deer bucks can disappear like nothing else......you think you got the sneaky S.O.B. then poof.................gonzo.

 

[ClorideRUS]

I don't think it has anything to do with antler size or genetics. I think it has everything to do with the age of the deer. If a deer has lived through 6 or 7 seasons they know every inch of their territory. They have learned to trust their senses and are always alert. They just get smarter every season. Have you ever noticed that the older bigger bucks rarely spook? They just go around you or use the terrain to escape.

Just my thoughts.

RUS

 

[manny15]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-08 AT 01:12PM (MST)[p]i was watched a big buck some years ago, and my son came up over the hill the buck never spooked he just ducked his head, tmy son new the buck was there some where but every time my son came closer the buck would just circle around him in the brush, he never saw the big deer and gave up assuming he ran off...

 

[need4x4]

Spotted a good buck for the area at the base of a long rock formation about 100 yards wide and maybe 300 yards long. Tall rock, so that you could not see over or walk over it.

Each time I tried to go around the rock formation, he would just go to the other side. This went on for a long time.

Finally, I just backed out to the top and stayed still for about an hour and a half and I had my partner go around and approach him from the bottom.

He never spooked, but as he tried to go around the rock formation, in a circle like fashion, he popped out of the brush at less than 25 yards.

He was plenty smart.

 

[Castnshoot]

I agree with Cabinfever. The genetics in the area you are hunting may say that 28 inches is as big as he is going to get.

The whole Idea of shooting nothing but trophy bucks of course shoots the all the big genetics out of a herd over time.

If you know where they are in early winter and the rut, go there and study the herd and you should get a better idea of what is really available.

I think most mule deer hunters have asked them selves that same question that you ask a time or two.

 

[Kevin D]

It seems silly to blame the lack of big bucks on lions......afterall, cougars don't share the same antler size addiction as us humans do. I've never yet met a trophy hunting lion, they are not going to pass up an easy doe or fawn just to take down a 30 incher.

The isolating habits of larger bucks may make them more succeptable to lion attacks, but their larger size, strength, and experience negates the cougar's advantage. Overall, it's a wash. The percentage of big bucks falling to lions is pretty much parallel to the percentage in the overall population the one study notwithstanding.

You might be able to blame a low deer population on lion predation, but if you're looking for a reason there aren't more big bucks in a population, I would discount blaming cougars.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

Lion kill has nothing to do with antler size and everything to do with worn out dominant bucks post rut hangin back from the rest of the deer and these are the ones the lions go after. If you were a lion, would you chase down a spunky little two point that is just foaming at the mouth to mount some doe and pent up on all manner of testosterone? Or would you take down the papa in the back of the line that is so tired from mounting, and probably from getting chased around by whack jobs waiting for his horns to fall off?

I think you might get the point if you actually put some thought into it.

 

[Kevin D]

Lions don't "chase down" deer as most of us know, that's not how they hunt. Rather, stalk and ambush is their preferred method of take. This is where the increased size and strength of a mature buck helps overcome any disadvantage caused by their isolation. The physics involved in taking down a larger animal lowers the lion's success rate.....and that's particularly true with mature bucks whose rut swollen necks makes it more difficult for a cougar to get a one bite kill. Smaller juvenile lions will often pass up these bigger deer avoiding the risk of injury to concentrate on the does, fawns, and smaller bucks they can more easily handle.

Post rut bucks are at their most vulnerable to predation, no one argues that. But as I mentioned in my original post, there are mitigating factors that ensure the percentage of these older bucks falling to cougars is parallel to the percentage of the overall population.

 

[southslope82]

As Far as Lions go I would have to say that the big bucks are more of an easier target for them considering all the energy given during the rut makes them weak bigger bucks seem to isolate themselves from other deer depending the time of year which makes a lions more vulnerable to getting on these bigger bucks fewer eyes and ears. Ryan hatch talks alot about this in his video "On the trail for trophy mule deer"..