Suggestion for Utah Deer Management

[MTQuivers]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-08 AT 05:50PM (MST)[p]I am posting my thoughts Utah Deer management after reading and posting on the Dedicated Hunter thread.

I hunt the Wasatch Archery hunt religiously and I have believed for a long time that it is the answer to Utah deer management problems. Those who hunt or have hunted the wasatch know the EXTREME hunting pressure it recieves. They also know of the quality deer that live in those mountains. To me it is a simply solution. If an area that has virtually no winter range and tremendous hunting pressure can produce big deer year after year why wouldn't that work for other areas. Why would it not work even better in areas with better winter range and why would it not bring less pressure for everyone? If we spread these archery only areas through out the state in general areas would the herd not manage itself? Would trophy quality not increase? Would buck to doe ratios not increase? Of course they would! If it works on a VERY SMALL portion of the state why would it not work for the ENTIRE STATE.
My proposal is that we make these archery only areas into limited draw hunts for rifle hunting and muzzlelaoder while continuing to have unlimited archery hunting opportunities. I don't think in an area like the Wasatch taking a few great bucks on a limited entry rifle hunt would hurt the deer herd at all. So if we had multiple areas like these throughout the state then the pressure would be spread out more evenly and the trophy quality would improve for everyone. I think they should then make archery tags unlimited so that people can hunt every year if they choose to and then every 2-5 years draw a rifle/muzzy tag and have a realistic chance of taking a real trophy. I think even rifle hunters would agree that having one quality rifle hunt every few years is better than 5 crappy experiences on mediocre deer on the general rifle hunt we have now.
Even as a committed archery hunter I believe the answer is MORE ARCHERY HUNTERS. More archers means more archery only areas to choose from and more big bucks for everyone. I would love to share these areas with rifle/muzzy hunters on a limited entry basis and I think the herd and trophy quality would manage itself.
I DARE THE DWR TO TRY IT!!!

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[thebuckstopshere]

Never happen in a million years.

PS - I would be willing to bet a few pesos that the wasatch archery only area has nothing to do with deer management, and everything to do with the masses not wanting gun toters in the back yards. I can see the extended archery only area extending south down to Spanish fork canyon someday, but it will never go statewide, IMHO!

 

[AspenAdventures]

I don't like playing bows and arrows. No offense but I like my muzz and rifle.


Siple solution. Try what Nevada, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, and many other states have done with TREMENDOUS success.

Split the state into smaller units and manage them as such.

Simple


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

[MTQuivers]

I agree one hundred percent that it in VERY unlikely to happen but it is hard to argue that it would work. Even if you don't like hunting with a bow and you are strictly a rifle hunter, wouldn't you rather have a quality hunt every few years instead of an over-crowded crappy hunt every year. Managing in smaller units may also be an answer but not a final solution. I look at Colorado and I see a bunch of great units but getting to hunt a great unit is something you would only get every 6-12 years as a rifle hunter. The tags you can draw as second choice in Colorado are no different than Utahs general hunts, therefor rifle hunters can still only expect a quality hunt every 6-12 years.
What if you combined the two ideas and had a bunch of smaller archery only units in which the hunter must choose his unit and then a limited draw for rifle hunts in each unit as well. As an archery hunter I would be willing to stick with one quality archery unit that spans a few months time with a few rifle/muzzleloader hunts in the middle. I think everyone would benefit and if there were more quality units even guys who thought they were strictly rifle hunters might find bow hunting very enjoyable. After all who wouldn't want to shoot a deer with a bow if it was a quality hunt with a realistic chance at a trophy buck.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[ICHABOD]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-08 AT 00:09AM (MST)[p]I have a suggestion that is even simpler...fewer tags. Hunters in Utah seem to want it both ways...unlimited opportunity, AND great quality. Those days are long gone. Having said that, I see quality deer EVERY year on public land general season hunts...go figure...

------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[MTQuivers]

I see quality deer every year on Public general units as well. For example I took my wife on her first hunt ever this year and in one day she shot 171" 5 by 5. So yes I know they are out there, however they are not often seen by the average joe. If a guy can hike and more important glass well there are big bucks to be found in every area of the state (no matter what some on this site say), however the average guy will not see them and the average guy will not have quality hunt. ICHABOD it sounds like you are not an average guy and you can find deer regardless, but what about the guys who can't.
I think archery provides the best of both worlds even in todays hunting world. Unlimited opportunity and Quality deer and more archery units like the wasatch equals more quality deer herds that have limited entry potential for rifle hunters.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[swbuckmaster]

MT you are preaching to the preacher on this one. People that have never hunted up there don't know what they are missing.

Well yes they do
big bucks every year.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[AspenAdventures]

If it did go forward you would need to limit the archery tags.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

[MTQuivers]

Maybe limiting archery tags would work but I am not sure you would need to if there were lots of units like the wasatch. It gets hammered by people yet it continues to produce. The Wasatch extended area is such a small area of the state and yet it produces some of the biggest archery bucks out of the state every year. Imagine if there were many similar archery only areas to spread the people out in.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[swbuckmaster]

MT says

The Wasatch extended area is such a small area of the state and yet it produces some of the biggest archery bucks out of the state every year.


MT should have said "some of the biggest bucks out of the state every year." The best part is over the counter tags. who would have thought you could ever do that is this day and age. quality, quantity, opertunity!

 

[redfrog]

Funny thing about the deer your wife killed....Im sure that deer was on someones elses land not public.. I think it would be great to have other archary units only. truth is, what you are asking for will not fix one thing. Smaller units would help alot
Alot of it is all about the ability to get to the deer. Archery only area..very few roads. You have to walk. Most poeple are not willing to do that. Go to just about any roadless area and there are alot of deer if you now where to look. Next when everyone kills the future big boy you can't get big boys.

There are alot of other great places to hunt in other states that have big bucks month long rifle hunts and many hunters and better deer because their state takes care of them. That won't happen here in utah because its all about money.

 

[cabinfever]

Copy CO

 

[MTQuivers]

"I think it would be great to have other archary units only. truth is, what you are asking for will not fix one thing."

Redfrog apparently you have never been up to the wasatch. Go up there and then lets hear waht you have to say. Of course it would fix alot of things.
Secondly I never said anything about these archery only units being roadless areas. I would like them the be parts of the general rifle units we have already across the state. I understand that the average guy doesn't like to leave his truck to hunt but wouldn't it be alot better if you actually had a chance to roadhunt and kill something in Utah. With current conditions the non-backpacking road hunters have very little to no chance of banging a big buck while other states like CO, WY lots of roadhunters are taking nice deer. Something has got to change to make that possible.
I am not saying my suggestion (because all it is, is MY "suggestion) it the only solution but I guarentee if implented there would be bigger deer for the archers, the riflemen, the muzzy hunters, the roadhunters, the backpackers and everyone in between. Again if you don't believe me check out the Wasatch and tell me if it is working in there.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[MTQuivers]

P.S. The deer my wife shot was up in West Canyon west of Lehi. Everyone and their dog has a key to that gate at the mouth of that canyon. I have lived in Lehi my whole life and know MANY people with a key. The friend that allowed me access told me that where she shot this deer was on Public Land but since I got back others have said it may not have been. Regardless of the lame stab you are trying to make at my wife and her deer everyone that has ever hunted in west canyon knows that it is just as crowded if not more crowded than any other area of the state. they also know that if you have acess up there you can hunt anywhere up there. They also know that for a girl on her first hunt that is a great deer and very few of the hundreds of cowboys that hunt that country by horseback would not have been thrilled with her buck. I know I would have been.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[redfrog]

WOW..

Have been up on the wasatch front many times. I Have seen some very large buck. I know what's up there. I like hunting with a bow as well. The big reason there are big buck up there is because there is no rifle hunt. Most rifle hunters here in utah shot at anything with bone on its head. Just making more Archery areas that still have rifle hunts will not make better deer.

I think your wifes deer is nice but When you come on here talking like it was public land and it may have been once you got clear through the gate and two hills over and to the top of the mountain Still alot of other property that is not public Looked at at it on alot of maps and there is not much public land.

Hey when are you going to stop showing poeple my honey hole for elk so you can make a buck with your cheap movies.

 

[MTQuivers]

Redfrog I don't know where your hostility comes from, but it won't be returned because I am in Kansas getting ready to go whitetail hunting tomorrow and I am to excited to even think about where this is all coming from. However I will say you speak bold words for a guy that posted pictures of a 15 inch 2 point from this years rifle hunt. Then you come on here and have the nerve to talk about rifle hunters shooting small deer and not letting them get big. Why dont you post that picture up again and explain how you are supporting trophy management. I don't mean to be rude but seems to me you ought to practice what you preach and hold you hostilities for people you know and things you actually know about. I don't know you and I am pretty sure if you knew me you wouldn't say the things your saying. I hunt hard and do it because I love it. No other reason. People dont make money from making videos. They do it because they love it. Ask anyone who does it they will tell you the same. I simply love hunting and I love videoing hunts. Anyone who knows me would agree with that 100%. This post was intended to express my thoughts on deer management not to make anyone upset. I was hoping for constructive discussion from other hunters and their ideas on deer management, not unwarrented attacks from people that know nothing about the situation except from second hand discussions they heard in a taxidermy shop.

P.S. As far as ruining anyones "honey hole." I never mentioned in any video where we were hunting. Therefore anyone who reckognizes a spot in the video probably already knew where it was. If you are referring to the spot I think you are it is a spike only unit. I am pretty sure you can find cows and spikes about anywhere. If not call me and I will take you to some much better spots than that.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[buglinbilly]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-08 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]Utah's mule deer herd is in a world of hurt and a fair share of the problems can be attributed to the rifle mentality of those that influence and manage our herds.

The ever increasing population trends will not end, nor will the subsequent loss of wildlife?s critical habitat. Therefore we can no longer continue to try to manage it like we have for eons. That's a hard concept for many to understand but nonetheless a very true fact.

I was born and raised in southwest Wyoming and started hunting mule deer during their glory days. It was just fantastic hunting up there and probably just as good down here if not better. You only have to speak with those old enough to witness that time, to truly understand the shambles of today?s mule deer populations

It is my belief that it won't be long before hunters will have to wait many years to hunt Utah?s mule deer unless drastic changes are implemented soon. If that's what you rifle hunters want, then I can assure you, that today?s management of our deer herds are on the right track and will lead you there sooner, rather than later.

As mentioned by some the Wasatch front is a great example of a heavily, long hunted area, that held its own for many years. If it were rifle hunted that profoundly and that extensively, for one year, the big bucks would basically be wiped out. That's the huge difference between bowhunting and rifle hunting, but the rifle mentality of this state refuses to see the writing on the wall. Sadly I think our mule deer herds and hunting like we know, will have to suffer much more before those leading the way, see the light and are forced to change. We need only to look at what happened to the Bookcliffs, and what is happening to Elk Ridge to understand the direction in which we are heading!

Would archery only areas, with long extended seasons and no rifle hunting give hunters, who chose to hunt that way extended opportunity? Absolutely! Would it be good for the hunters and for the mule deer herd? Absolutely! Will it ever happen in this state? That is very unlikely, as we can't even get the rifle hunt out of rut, on our elk herds in most good units! The management of this state, in so many ways, is just nuts. It's tied to money, back scratching, favoritism, and well thought-out biology takes a back seat to all of that.

Until Utahan?s wake up and realize its not the bow hunters against the rifle hunters that is our problem, it's the pee poor management and its failure to see the catastrophic course which lies ahead and their failure to change the course and try new ideas that promote more mature deer, and more opportunity.

It can and will not happen as long as our main management instrument is slanted towards rifle hunting. Rifle hunting, with today?s scopes, loads, shooting sticks, etc. is just to efficient to increase herd quality and opportunity. Sadly our deer herds will continue to suffer until that very premise is truly understood by our deer managers and the rifle commumity educated to those facts.

So as long as we continue to manage our deer herds in the same way we have in the past, we will have two choices. Either we have less quality and less deer, or we can have better quality and far less opportunity.

In closing I would like to say the Wasatch Front is only several bad winters from being a distant memory. There is basically very little winter range remaining and I see little hope that is can continue too far into the future. Let's set aside several good archery only areas before its too late. Let's do it in areas where deer have a winter range and I think it won't take many years for all hunters and managers to see the wisdom of such bold management. The units surrounding these units would be very beneficial to rifle hunters too.

Have a good one. BB

 

[redfrog]

Maybe You should take a good look at the deer agian. first was a 3 point 17 inches the secound was a two by three as was 20 not 15 neither one was a first year buck. By the way its not secound had for a taxidermy shop.

Good luck on your white tail hunt I hope you bag a big one.

 

[MTQuivers]

17 and 20 inch deer are definitely not mature deer and they never had a chance to get big which contradicts your previous statements about deer management. That being said I am not on here to agrue with you or anyone so not hard feelings. As far as the whitetail hunt I saw one doe and one turkey yesterday and I went to church today. I have 6 more days to hunt so I am excited. I am hunting on my sister in laws friends property who live here in Kansas. A guy hunting with us yesterday shot at a BIG ten point so I am excited. It should be fun. Trail cameras have some nice deer and I hope to get one to walk past my stand.

www.basinarcheryshop.com