Mule deer numbers

[bearman]

I'm from Nevada and we have a group that believe our loss of deer is totally due to predators. I don't believe this is the case I am born and raised in Elko and spend around 100 days or more in the field. There main thing is the lion and I run hounds and over the last ten years it has gotten terrible to find a lion. Any way I was wondering what the opinion was of others on there state for declining deer numbers. They are saying New Mexico has great deer numbers because they kill so many lions. Is this true?

 

[sageadvice]

I'm from North Eastern Calif and i don't even have the time to put down all the efforts i've personally made to no avail in trying to get a season on Mt Lions in our state. Just about everybody who lives in these parts are now just "seeing" lions on a yearly basis.

At least you guys in Nev. and other States have some sort of season and can help control the ratio between predator and prey(deer). Here they really have impacted the herds, getting worse all the time, no help in sight!

Good Hunting, Joey

 

[bearman]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-08 AT 04:50PM (MST)[p]All my thoughts would not pertain to California as we know you have a lion problem. That is one of the exact reasons I have a problem with there idea is then the tree huggers would want to outlaw lion hunting.

 

[sageadvice]

Well, you did ask for "other States"...

In any event, last year i did read a very interesting in depth booklet publication on this same question put out by the NDOW that you probably read as well. In it, the biologists blaimed "most" of the downward trend in Mule Deer numbers to factors other than predetors, Habitat, old Habitat, and older Habitat...and i do agree with their findings in your state. Good luck in your search! Joey

 

[Blueticker]

To me it's such a simple equation. In the early 1990's the mule deer herds crashed in all of their ranges. You can't blame it on drought, winter kill, etc. because the herds crashed in the mountains and deserts, from north to south at the same time. There was only one commmon factor nationwide, California to Maine......a dramatic increase in predators. Lions aren't the only predators of deer. Coyotes are worse on deer than lions simply because there's so many more yote's than cats. Bobcats contribute a little bit as well. The reason for the dramatic increase in predators was due to the crash of the fur market in the late 1980's. There were tens of millions of pelts harvested every year during the 1980's. The furbearer harvest since the crash has been flat.
Now we have wolves. Look at the absolute devestation they've caused to Wyoming's moose herd since they were dumped on us. It's sickening.
You know what they say about wolves, "smoke a pack a day".

 

[bearman]

Sageadvice. no disrespect meant. Blue, you don't believe in habitat at all? I used to think it was never habitat or winter and so on. Then I got involved about six years ago, and learned more than I thought before. My opinion is there should be no doe tags, then over harvest, and road kill, and habitat, then finally predators. Fur price did fall but there still is a lot of trappers still out there and lots of calling contests. When I'm lion hunting I see 8 out of 10 kills are coyotes. But I don't see more coyotes out there now compared to the 70's, 80's or 90's. That's just in my part of the country. Wondering about yours. Thanks for input.

 

[slamdunk]

Great post bluetick.........+1

Currently Utah's biologist estimate there to be 2000 cats in our state, but the older age class have fallen off dramatically. Any Utah houndsman will tell you it's very rare to tree a cat over 5 years old here anymore.
They estimate one lion will take a big game animal for food a week (mostly deer). 2000 x 52 weeks in a year is a pretty alarming number. 104000 deer being killed each year by lions?
I highly doubt it's that high, but a scary thought none the less. Now toss in the bajillian (is that even a number?) coyotes we have and what THEY do??? I'd hate to even place a number on that one!! Now toss in road kills (whoah, no wonder our insurance rates are so high!) Ever think about eagles??
I have seen a few eagles dive bomb fawns and it's a pretty common thing in the wild! Now the ever shrinking critical winter range due to prime luxury housing in the foot hills?? (makes my skin crawl!) Now lets put 250,000 hunters in the field for what ever's left over.........nuff said, i'm going fishing.

 

[ELKOHUNTER]

slamdunk you hit that hard. now put the fires in there!

 

[slamdunk]

........oh ya, and lets add in fires and loss of habitat that way too!! Lol

BTW-
I DID see a deer today feeding by the freeway, there's at least one left.........or was.

Fish on...lets go!! Lol

 

[bearman]

Ok do you really think there are 100,000+ deer killed by lions?
Elkohunter do you really think we have a lion problem? I live in Elko and I can tell you we don't have a lion problem. I see from your pics you are young and at one time I to thought lions were kill all are deer and I got hounds and stated hunting lions and found out different. And lion hunting trained me to look at sign all times of the year. I don't know of other states but would like to know from people who actually spend lots of time in the field. Elkohunter how many lions have you seen and how many lion kills have you seen in your life? I am around the a lot of the main hunters around Elko except weekend warriors and they all have the same opinion very few lions. Fact is predators are a natural part of wildlife but are they out of control? Maybe in Utah. Slamdunk what is the deer population in Utah. And they actually have a lion population estimate? When you are out there do you see lions or kills. I'm need disagreeing with you slamdunk but need more info. Thanks for the input.

 

[BuckSeeker79]

I gotta say that Slam dunk is right on the money. I have to admit that I'd really like to see the DWR of Utah do what they've done for the Elk with the Deer herds. I've said it before, I love hunt'n big bulls, but there's something about the Muley that drives my passion for hunting.

From winter range lost to freeway's, predators, over hunting. It's all right on. Perhaps Utah DWR should consider the 3 point or better rule. Start implementing this across the state, allow the deer to age, less tags, less hunters on teh general season. Something's got to give with this situation or else there will be even bigger problems with our Muley's then they are already facing.

That's my take. For what it's worth...

 

[slamdunk]

Bearman-
Those estimates came directly from the Utah lion biologist at a summer RAC meeting discussing mule deer/lion reationships. He gave extensive studies on collared and tracked lions. They watched one lion in particular on GPS that was tagged in cenrtal Utah one spring, watched him travel about 100 miles north, then east into Wyoming, back into utah and was finally tree'd and killed by hunters in Meeker Colorado....all in one year!! They knew when he had made a kill because he'd stay in that area for about 5-7 days and they'd even investigate the coordinates to see what he was eating. He is also the one who gave the states estimated sensus on lions, based on tree'd and "marked" lions on different regions within the state.

As for me....on a two week elk guiding trip this past fall in YOUR neck of the woods (Deep Creek range/ Nevada Utah border) i personally saw 4 lions and had an opportunity to kill one of them (legally mind you). If you see 4 cats in two weeks, you've got a lion problem.
I'm not blaming deer loss to just cats, i mentioned above ALL factors and i still firmly beleive coyotes take a bigger toll than people care to realize or admit.

As far as for Nevada goes?
I wish i knew more about your state. I hunted the Schell Creek range a while back and was disgusted in the LACK of deer on some of the best mule deer habitat i have ever seen anywhere.
We know it's not from human hunting pressure, your tags are more limited than any other state.........somethings not letting them flourish???

 

[bearman]

Slamdunk, Thanks for the input. That is amazing that you saw four lions in two weeks. Most people never see a lion in there life let alone in two weeks. If you had to rate your state what would be the number one thing down to the least thing that's holding mule deer numbers down? Nevada I would list it as #1 doe tags #2 too many buck tags #3 Habitat #4 road kill #5 coyotes #6 lions. Would love to hear from more states.

 

[slamdunk]

I'm not sure i'd dare put a number on how they line up, but i firmly beleive that here in Utah, it all boils down to the critical habitat losses we keep seeing.

Hunting pressure and predator issues have always been there, but if we keep losing critical habitat to help rejuvinate the losses to a healthy balance it's only going to get worse.

I STRONGLY believe that we should "micro manage" our units here in Utah to better suit the herds in those respective areas,
ESPECIALLY in the Northern region.

 

[cantkillathing]

Slam forgot to mention the bear problem in utah as well, I am sure hounddawg will argue, but it is proven that during fawning time that the bear will eat the fawns, and they eat plenty, yes bear mainly eat berries and grass, but one time of the year they feast on fawns.

 

[slamdunk]

Good point cantkillathing, i was actually avoiding that issue cuz i thought some might say i was "nit picking" at anything and everything, but bears to have an impact.
This makes me mention porcupines as well. Not too many people realize this, but porcupines are hell on fawn and calves. They are interested in what that critter is crawling around through the forest and SLAP....they get a face full of quills and starve to death.
Just a little more food for thought. ;-)

 

[bearman]

Slamdunk, That was put perfectly! Same goes for Nevada. I just got back from NDOW and looked at the up date predator project in the Ruby Mtns. They have had a full time predator services guy live in Well's Nevada and trapping, hunting with hounds, and flying for coyote's and lion for five years. So far they have taken 2500 coyotes and 12 lions and not one change in deer numbers or fawn numbers. And look at that 12 lions in five years is all. Sounds like we have a lion problem, HA HA HA.

 

[BowHuntWithaRifle]

Please, all South Bannock County residence, read my post on land development in the Idaho forum. The city of Inkom is hosting a meeting to discuss land use and zoning. They are wanting to develop critical deer habitat into homes on acre lots. Not good for mule deer numbers. Please take the time to read it. Its short, yet informative. Thanks.

 

[BowHuntWithaRifle]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-08 AT 02:45PM (MST)[p]Please, all South Bannock County residence, read my post on land development in the Idaho forum. The city of Inkom is hosting a meeting to discuss land use and zoning. They are wanting to develop critical deer habitat into homes on acre lots. Not good for mule deer numbers. Please take the time to read it. Its short, yet informative. Thanks.


Opps, double post, sorry.

 

[elkguide]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-08 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]Number one cause of the decline in mule deer herds I believe in Nevada is due to over hunting and loss of habitat, just think at how much habitat is lost not only to wildfires but look at the critical winter habitat that is developed throughout the west by cities expanding and people wanting to live in the country. We are the problem plus everything else, yeah it may be predation but not just by lions and coyotes, but by people too. I agree with bearman predators have been and will always be a natural part of the food chain, man has hurt the muledeer numbers worse than the predators. We have also helped, muledeer numbers were at all time high's in the 80's, what was management like back then as compared to now? It is called over harvesting, too many doe's being taken out, and also too many bucks being harvested, then put in what the predators kill and you are looking at some pretty scary numbers. I remember as a young boy growing up in the Ely area, and when the DOW decided to put in early and late hunts on bucks and issuing equal amounts of tags, and also issuing tons of doe tags, thats where the herd went, in everyones freezers.

 

[bearman]

Right on elkguide, I believe it was 1975 through 1980 there wasn't any doe tags. Guess what then deer numbers went to an all time high. More deer less people hunting.

 

[bobcatbess]

ALRIGHT YOU PUZZY'S!!!

LETS TALK ABOUT LIONS FOR A MINUTE!!!

A FEW YEARS BACK A BUNCH OF DIP-$HITS WERE SCREAMIN THEIR HEADS OFF ABOUT TOO MANY LIONS IN THE BOOK CLIFFS!!!

THE DWR ISSUED MORE TAGS!!!

THEN THEY WENT TO A QUOTA SYSTEM!!!

THE F'N PLACE GOT HUNTED DAMN NEAR OUT!!!

SEVERAL YEARS THE QUOTA WAS NEVER FILLED!!!

THE DEER HERD IS IN WORSE SHAPE THIS YEAR THAN I'VE SEEN IT IN THE LAST 8 YEARS!!!

IT'S BEEN GETTING WORSE BY THE YEAR FOR SEVERAL YEARS IN A ROW!!!

SO WTF???

THE LIONS ARE DAMN NEAR HUNTED OUT!!!

WHAT'YA GONNA BLAME IT ON NOW???

ITS THE LIONS!!!

ITS THE LIONS!!!

SCREAMED A BUNCH OF PUZZY'S!!!

AIN'T THE LIONS!!!

WAFJ!!!

THEY SWORE IF THEY WIPED ALL THE BIG CATS OUT THE HERD WOULD FLOURISH!!!

HMMMMM...!!!

WTF???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

Dang Bessy, that was harsh!!
Last time i was in the books (last september) it has the strongest numbers as far as deer i have ever seen, it seemed there were TOO many!!
The books aren't hurting for numbers of deer, they suck because they issue over 600 buck tags every year and there is no older age class bucks there, but shear numbers are VERY high.

And like i mentioned above, and you've heard me say this over and over again......the lions aren't soley to blame, but they have the biggest direct impact next to humans, that's a fact.
Also mentioned above, lions have been hunting deer since they invented them, so that SHOULDN'T be an issue at all. It's all the other poor odds that help SUSTAIN the herd that is killing them off.

 

[bobcatbess]

I LIKE THE HELL OUT OF YOU PUNK BUT YOU ARE VERY WRONG & MIS-INFORMED!!!

I'LL MAKE YOU A DEAL!!!

WHEN IT SNOWS IN THE BOOK CLIFFS WE'LL RIDE OUT & I'LL HAVE YOU SHOW ME ALL THESE LION TRACKS THAT YOU THINK IS THE 2ND BIGGEST FACTOR ON THAT HERD!!!

IS THAT A DEAL???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

How bout we go for that ride regardless, too hell with the lions!! Lol

 

[1muleman]

We are loosing our aspen stands to conifers and all of our winter country to pinyon and juniper. Where can someone always go to fine lots of critters, (old fire scars) We need more fires. We need to put more pressure on the federal agencies to let more of them go. Along with a strong predator control program.

 

[slamdunk]

Hell, the deer ought to be flourishing in kali in a few years then!! Lol
Is there even any forset left over there??

 

[bobcatbess]

AND ONE MORE THING PUNK!!!

I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME SOME MATURE TOM TRACKS!!!

"PLENTY OF FEED,RIGHT"???

MIGHT AS WELL SHOW ME ALL THESE BIG TROPHY MULE DEER TOO WHILE WE ARE THERE!!!

DO YOU SEE ANY SIMILARITIES IN THE 2 SPECIES???

BOTH CONTROLLED BY HUMANS & THE UDWR!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[1muleman]

hay slamdunk you seriously can't say that fires are bad. If your agreeing that habitat is a big part of the problem. Then we need to analyze habitat. What have we been doing for a better part of a 100 years, suppressing fires. Take the dutton for instance, have you been down there since the big fire they had in 02. If not I suggest you take a drive down there and take a look, it has done nothing but good for the (Habitat) forage production has gone through the roof. The Henry's is also benefiting from a few big fires that recently burn't around 30,000 acres. We need more large scale fires like that and (Habitat) will begin changing in the right direction for both deer and elk to increase in numbers. Habitat is all about getting better forage production, there is no better tool to do that than Fires. There are to many good examples of how good fire is, to set back and ignore what it can do. I would suggest at takeing a closer look at it instead of turning a blind eye to it.
And yes the fires in cali would help deer but there is obviously a huge lion problem there. you've have to have habitat change and predator control to start moving things in the right direction.

 

[bearman]

Cat' What you said is exactly what I told them at our commission meeting. Lets go out and you show me all the lions, can't and wont happen. Anyone from another state?

 

[slamdunk]

1muleman-
I totally agree that fires help, i was being facesious

I hunt the Dutton, best buck i have killed there was in an old burn munching on the new stuff. ;-)

 

[1muleman]

Sorry slamdunk, I just get worked up when I hear that fires are bad for wildlife, there are just WAY to many examples to prove otherwise.I feel that it is one of the major problems that wildlife face in the west right now. Dam fire fighters do to good of a job. We need to take away their water and give them more drip torches!!!!

 

[slamdunk]

Fires definately clean out thick over grown brush and open up new vegitation.
The only bad thing i have seen from fires is the cheat grass can come in too fast and play hell on everything else.

 

[BuckSnort]

Fires on summer range is good for habitat.

Fires on the winter range that consists of sage,pj's and cliffrose is very bad for the habitat and deer/elk herds.

 

[slamdunk]

I totally agree snort!
Fires can be the best thing for an area...or it's worst nightmare.

 

[1muleman]

your right extreme low elevations are very susceptible to cheat grass invasion after a fire, but with the right kind of rehab efforts, you can take unproductive over grown pinyon and juniper landscapes and turn them into productive wintering grounds again. But you have to use proven methods such as chaining and planting non native species (Crested wheat grass, intermediate wheat grass, alfalfa, small burnett, forage kochia just to name a few), they can and do compete very effectively against cheat grass.

 

[sageadvice]

You guys are on the money about fires. Talking to a biologist the other day, he explained to me why the big fires in Nevada aren't nessesarily going to be a good thing. Type of soil and Cheatgrass! Their habitat is Very Old though...needs to go. Burn and Plant in NV., but that costs lots of $$.

Nobody here in Cali wants all the Lions gone by any means. Balance! Right now our game animals are way down and the predetor cycle is at it's peak. Freaking treehugger city bound libs won't allow a season on the cats even to save the vanishing deer... unbelievable!

Joey