Mule Deer Genetics?????????

[WEKILLDEER]

Hey guys I was wondering what the typical growth pattern for Muley anters is??? I saw ALOT of really big 3 point and forky racks this yr. Most of these deer looked to be in the 3-5yr old range and some would have been shooters if they were 4 points or better. Do these deer have a shot at becoming a 4 point or will they always be 3 points or weak-fork 4 points.

 

[HunterHarry]

I think that age is more important than genetics in most muley country today.
Most don't survive long enough to reach trophy status.
If you are talking Boone & Crockett stature then genetics may come into play more, but for the average Joe, a mature heavy horned buck with a decent frame is trophy enough. .
HH

 

[sageadvice]

yes, sounds like the genetics have been hurt some if that's the kind of deer your seeing.

I don't understand many of you guys thinking. Most would be satisfied with a 175 class 4x4 yet would pass on a older buck with the same or better rack because he's only a 3 pointer. Especially if the 3x is a older mature buck, i'd be glad to take him given i already spent some time looking for the monster.

The best buck i ever shot at had a main frame very similar to the mounted buck that's for sale on e-bay...only he was a forkie. i'd just about give one of my nards to have killed that buck, super trophy. After all, how many bucks you gonna kill that book? Probably none or at least none on any given year. A good mature buck with a nice frame is a trophy IMO, he don't got to be a 4x4

Joey

 

[jims]

Pretty much everything needs to be present to produce a B&C buck (genetics, feed, mild winters, spring moisture, age, etc). Seeing a bunch of mature 3 pts is signal that something may be wrong in an area or unit; however, some areas may never produce super scoring bucks. Years ago it was thought that trophy potential in units would be improved if there were 4 pt or better regs in affect. This seemed to backfire and produced lots of mature 3 pt bucks because the 4 pt bucks and genetics slowly declined.

In a quality unit with good genetics, feed, decent winter, spring moisture, etc 2 year old bucks may actually produce 3 pts/side rather than a forked horn their 2nd year. Young bucks that produce 3 pts may actually be a good sign but if you are seeing mature 3 pt or crabby 4th pt bucks this may not be desireable if an area is trying to be managed for high scoring bucks.

The same thing can be said about mature (5+ year old) 5 pt bull elk. UT actually had 5 pt "management" bull elk tags to try getting rid of the "bad" genetics. Actually the same thing could be done with muledeer units by having 3x tags available! Shooting "management" bucks is pretty common practice on whitetail and a few muley ranches managing for super bucks. These hunts usually are at a discouted price compared to the "trophy" hunts.

After years of waiting for a limited muley tag I know I am definitely willing to pass up giant 3x4's or bucks with crabby 4ths. Unfortunately if a bunch of other guys are doing the same thing you can imagine what happens to the genetics over time!

 

[skipbuck]

The Nov/Dec issue of Muley Crazy had a great article by Charles Kay on the subect.

Kay states that genetics have little to due with exceptional horn growth.

Age and quality of forage are the main factors, Kay also states that minerals in certain area help grow great horns, not to be confused with genetics.

It was a great article and really changed my way of thinking.Everyone should check it out.

 

[WEKILLDEER]

I understand what you guys are saying about being happy with a mature 3 point. I have taken deer between the ages of 4 to 6 each of the last 4 years. All of these deer are trophies to me but are nowhere near book. Again if I see plenty of 4 to 6 year old deer with crab claws or three point racks, is this their max potential given there is good nutrition and water available?

 

[sneekiest_sneeker]

I think all of that plays a factor but management hunts only take care of half the problems. Ya you shoot the big 2 points and 3x4's and big 2x3's but you only get half the problem taken care of. Where does male pattern baldness come from? Your moms dad.... so the genetics are being carried through the doe's too not just the bucks. How do you manage that?

 

[kilbuc]

wekillder....just out of curiosity, how did you know the deer were 3-5 years of age. Were they still alive on the hoof. Or were they dead and you aged using tooth relacement and wear. It is very difficult to age mule deer on the hoof using physical characteristics. Especially after 3 years of age.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

 

[Packout]

The question was: Will a 3-5 year old 2 or 3 point ever be more? I believe the answer for the 3 year old is maybe. For the buck 4 or older, most likely not.

I have not read Kay's article, but first deer must have the genetics to produce certain characteristics. There should be no debate in that. A buck's genetics are unchangeable when it hits the dirt as a fawn. Once you have the genetic potential, then the other factors become important.

Look at multiple years of shed antlers from bucks within the same range and it is easy to tell that genetics play role number one. Once mature, bucks maintain and display simliar characteristics from one year to the next. Then you can see the effects of age and diet in the antlers from year to year.

So, I would wager that shooting the best antlered bucks out of a herd every year, thus allowing the inferior older age class bucks to do the breeding, will have a negative affect on antler potential in the future.

Take a look at the Henry Mtns. The average age of the bucks killed is 4 years old on the unit. So the year before most of the bucks were only 3. Those 3 year olds were never given much chance to breed and pass on their genes because of the high number of antler inferior, 5 year mature bucks which hoard the doe population. Will the Henry Mtns become the Books Cliffs or Pauns; lands of the marginal 3 points and crabby 4s with the occasional giant mixed in? Units with extreme limited hunting opportunity will change the genetic structure of the herd as the best antlered bucks are selected over time.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

I read somewhere that once a 3 point always a three point. The article claimed that for Mule Deer, a deer with good genetics will first be a forky and then to a 4 point. Can't remember where I read that. I'm sure I will get some oposition to that, but it seemed credible.

 

[brownie]

Don't know about the three point thing, but it makes sense.
Packout, I have to agree with you. Out here in Cali, zone G-3 the goodale buck hunt, the've been killing the best bucks on the winter range for thirty years now, and believe me it makes a difference. In 1979 when that hunt started, there were so many monster bucks it would make your head spin. After the rut in 1980, I counted 25 bucks in one bunch, all 4x4's except for two 3x3's and one forked horn. This year there were lots of bucks, but most of them 2x3's 3x3's and 4x3's, nice bucks, don't get me wrong, but no busters. When everyone shoots the 4x4's and the trash bucks you end up with the lesser bucks doing the breeding.
Thanks, Doug.

 

[Longun]

My Personal belief is genetics and around here they are getting shot out. Saw a lot of mature heavy horned 4x3'S, a few 3x3's and look at this forked horn.

 

[WEKILLDEER]

Longun, That is alot like what I am seeing. And to answer another question I am not just judging age on the hoof. Several people in my hunting party have killed several of these deer one of which was a 27 inch wide crab claw three point whiched aged a 5 yrs old. I thought him to be on the decline but not at the tender age of 5. Thanks for all the help. Oh and this is in Eastern MT if any Montanans have any input.

 

[Muleymemories]

>I read somewhere that once a
>3 point always a three
>point. The article claimed
>that for Mule Deer, a
>deer with good genetics will
>first be a forky and
>then to a 4 point.
>Can't remember where I read
>that. I'm sure I will
>get some oposition to that,
>but it seemed credible.


I also heard that 3 points have a major genetic problem. Mule deer bucks are suppose to grow a 4 point frame. Start out as a forky and end up as a 4 point, but that doesn't always happen. Thats why i think and management hunt or a 3 point or better hunt is key to managing a herd. Give hunters opportunity to weed out those 3 points or 3x4... And gives the rest of us the opportunity in a few years to harvest bucks with average age of 4 years or better!! Manage the does for a few years shoot out bad gene class bucks and then cut back on the doe hunts and let the older mature 4 point bucks breed away...Let the forkies grow to potential. They say that once a buck reaches age 4 years or older he has a 85% chance of dieing of old age.

 

[buckstomp]

I have learned through discussions with many different wildlife biologists that mule deer have very strong genetic predispositions. While I agree somewhat with Kay that genetics have less to due with ?exceptional? horn growth, genetics still play a strong role with respect to antler patterns. So called antler ?blue prints? are very distinguishable through the generations..

In terms of ?exceptional? horn growth, Kay is right on when he says age, forage, and minerals are all key components for mass. What make the Arizona Strip so successful is the high quality minerals available to bucks in that area.

I am very skeptical of the three-point-or-better management strategy. Although it does indeed ?weed out? the three point bucks, it still leaves smaller bucks to breed the herd because most of the mature bucks are taken during the hunt. Same goes with bucks that have ?crab claw? tendencies that are allowed to influence the gene pool.

To answer the first question, I have been told that bucks with a three point main frame will never have a four point main frame, regardless of age. They may indeed grow extra "cheater" points, but essentially retain that three point main frame status.

Just my two cents?

 

[Muleymemories]

>I have learned through discussions with
>many different wildlife biologists that
>mule deer have very strong
>genetic predispositions. While I agree
>somewhat with Kay that genetics
>have less to due with
>?exceptional? horn growth, genetics still
>play a strong role with
>respect to antler patterns.
>So called antler ?blue prints?
>are very distinguishable through the
>generations..
>
>In terms of ?exceptional? horn growth,
>Kay is right on when
>he says age, forage, and
>minerals are all key components
>for mass. What make
>the Arizona Strip so successful
>is the high quality minerals
>available to bucks in that
>area.
>
>I am very skeptical of the
>three-point-or-better management strategy. Although it
>does indeed ?weed out? the
>three point bucks, it still
>leaves smaller bucks to breed
>the herd because most of
>the mature bucks are taken
>during the hunt. Same goes
>with bucks that have ?crab
>claw? tendencies that are allowed
>to influence the gene pool.
>
>
>To answer the first question, I
>have been told that bucks
>with a three point main
>frame will never have a
>four point main frame, regardless
>of age. They may indeed
>grow extra "cheater" points, but
>essentially retain that three point
>main frame status.

>Just my two cents?
I'm not disagreing with what your saying here. By having a 3 point or better management plan it still gives opportunity and the chance for the herd to grow.

Most sportman and I say most because i see it every year will not pass up the 3 point or 3x4 or even the little forkies. By making it 3 point or better it makes those who want to shoot a deer shoot something bigger than a 3 point buck.

How many guys harvest mature 4 point or better bucks every year on public ground? I would say some where around 15% and that might be a little high, thus giving us who hunt for trophy class or mature animals a chance to harvest if we are in that 15%.So, what I'm getting at is 85% of the mature bucks will survive every year given it be a three point or better unit or not. Most sportmans are not capable or even care about harvesting a trophy or mature buck, because it is very difficult. Shoot out the bad genes let the forkies walk and see our mature trophy buck grow to there potential.So we can still manage for opportunity and have great bucks to look at every fall!!

 

[Longun]

Buckstomp---how many bucks are harvested annually on the Arizona Strip??

 

[buckstomp]

I'm sure your real question is what is my definition of "successful" with respect to the Arizon Strip. Success to some hunters might mean a high harvest rate, which is a reasonable definition...you won't get high harvest rates on the strip. The "success" I'm refering to about the Arizona Strip is the availability of mule deer with exceptional antler growth, which was the context of the conversation. Hope this helps...

 

[JBird]

It's funny who threads jump off course.. gotta love it.

 

[jcmuleys]

I really like this subject. I watch mule deer all year and often the same bucks for a few years as they grow. I few years back a friend of mine killed a 28 inch 3x3 when he showed up at my house and showed me the buck i gave him 3 years worth of sheds from that deer. All the sheds were the same his fronts were crabby. The deer had only gained mass each year. He was a mature buck and i guessed him at 4 and half years old.
Last winter i watched a buck during the rut that was a 3x4 he was a mature buck guessing him to be around 4.5 or 5.5. This winter he showed up with a droptine and matching kickers but still had his 3x4 frame.
I have a friend that raises mule deer and he says that he can tell if a deer has genetic potential by the time they are 3.5. He feeds the bucks all the same protein and nutrition mix and some just have more genetic potential than others. So i think that feed is a part of it but genetic potential has to be there.
I think that if a buck is 3.5 and doesn't have a four point frame more than likely he will never have one.
When I first started hunting Colorado had a three point or better point restriction I think that this really helped our genetics of our deer. Most people where just looking for that three point to shoot because there was no tag quota and deer where not as plentiful. But then we got some monster 2 points that had no browtines because no one could shoot them. I think that now most of our good genetic bucks get shot before they are really mature enough to be the dominate buck that does most of the breeding.
I don't think that there is a way to manage both trophy quality and cull out the crap at the same time. I know that i don't want to use my preference point to cull the herd!
JC