southern region deer 5 to 9 days for or against and why?

thats what it will come down to is killing little deer again. the whole reason behind the five day was to get the buck to doe ratio up where we can get some good bucks, now they are sending it right back to where it was ten years ago. i feel it needs to go back to the five day so they dont get dessimated on the second weekend when there heading to the winter range, but thats just me. weatherbys rule
 
Sowhat is the difference if they get shot the second weekend? Most were getting shot the second day since most people could/would only hunt the first two or three days. At least now they might get smart after the first weekend before the "hunter" come back out on the second weekend.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-09 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]When the southern region went to a 5 day hunt I noticed a considerable difference in more older age class deer. Maybe it was my imagination but I thought it kept a lot of deer alive. That second weekend is usually a slaughter on Tobin or nearabouts. A few people find where the majority of the deer are and it seems like everyone keys in on it after a couple days.

It's nice to be able to have time to hunt but it's also nice to have deer to hunt. Take your pick. What's your opinion Kody?
 
Heres where the problems start its all about buck to doe ratios and its on a 3 year average the way it is now so say we have a huge harvest this year and the ratio goes below objective the division cant go back to 5 day for 2 more years and the ratio could be in single digits and weve all worked to hard to get where we are to go backwards and it seems to me that the division and the rac work in reverse dont get me wrong im all about opportunity and time affield but a year like this and no cover on the wash and other places due to fires were going to be in trouble just my 2 cents!!!!!
 
AMEN, Brother!! I think Utah manages for deer like Colorado manages elk. Opprotunity at smaller, younger game. I'm going to miss going out in November, December, and January to watch more mature deer rut. It might take this year and next but that is the road we're heading down. Then the DWR will come back and say "sorry we miss calculated there are nomore bucks, how do guys feel about going to a 5 day hunt?" Putting us right back to where we were 10+ years ago.
 
This is a subject that burns me! I am certainly not a biologist, even though I like to play one, but I have hunted on the south for 40+ years. The number of mature bucks has never been better since the 5 day. I can't explain why. Perhaps the deer get tired and make a mistake, weather? The "study" by some intern about the theory that less deer were taken on a ten day because people held off and then did not come back seemed to be a load of crap to me. I did not think there was a big outcry to lengthen te season, but obvioulsy the people who did knew the right people.

Anyway, I am planning on spending a few more days on the hunt, (not more than 5) because I expect the quality to decline again.
 
if the people who wanted to hunt were serious about it they would take off a little time and actually hunt, but they wont, and they cried to there friends in high places about hunter opprotunity. so here we are again getting screwed out of good quality and numbers so that more people can ride there wheelers around and shoot the first thing with bone. weatherbys rule
 
why all the DWR bashing? is it not what people wanted? (the 9 day er)

wait till the opportunist's get done with the elk heard.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-09 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-09 AT 11:36?AM (MST)

Wait til the opportunists get done with the elk heard.Are you on the divisions side on that one too dog or are you dwr bashing yourself!!!
 
I don't know of one person that was for it. But I'm sure their are plenty that are for it. The one rac meeting I went to their was 2 of us against it and 0 for it that voiced opinions.
 
I think the 9-day hunt is a very bad idea.
I think they should limit the number of tags west of Hwy 18; which would NEVER happen. There is great potential to produce some serious toads, but until the DWR cares to make a few more areas capable of producing older-age-class bucks, we'll just have to get used to the sound of bullets wizzing by our heads and orange-speckled mountainsides.
Nice bull, by the way.
 
I liked the five day. I think that more big bucks will get taken in the nine day hunt because people will hold off more than they did on the five day hunt. Should be a lot of two points that get through this years hunt because people will be focused on bigger bucks, because they have more time.

I liked the five day, and yes I saw an increase in mature deer within a few years of when they started it. But if I could hunt 10 days on the sands, I would find a monster. In five it is harder, but possible.

Maybe we should shoot for seven and meet in the middle.

Dillon
 
There are some areas that are a slaughter on the second weekend because the pressure pushes the deer. The sands is one of those units. I used to like hunting it on the second week because if you knew where to be it was awesome.

When the five day any rifle hunt was first proposed I was selfishly against it. Now that I've seen what it's done (which isn't enough but a step in the right direction) I'm selfishly for it.

When is the state going to get serious about managing deer. Tag reduction to 97,000 was a step but it was more of a stop-bleed. I think if we still had unlimited over the counter sales, utah Mulies would be extinct by now. I personally think smaller units would help management because all areas have problems that are unique to themselves. While I would hate to be confined to a smaller area I think it would help relieve pressure to several areas.

What was the reasoning behind extending the hunt. The division cries opportunity. Couldn't they have kept a shorter hunt, increase tag sales and still end up with the same hunter days afield while giving more opportunity and probably the same # of harvested deer. I'm not wanting to see more people afield but it seems like the end results would have been about the same.

I agree as said before, anyone serious about hunting is going to take those 5 days to hunt come hell or highwater. Now most of them will take all 9 days.
 
Rob, As i understand it the reason for the extra four days was that the buck to doe ratio continues to stay above objective so instead of leaving it alone the division and our southern region joke of a rac decides to go 9 days over a couple bucks over objective and throw us into a downward tail spin. The unit your refering to im sure is the pine valley and yes the second weekend is a slaughter there is no cover west of highway 18 people dont realize the amount of deer that are killed by road hunters down on the tobin bench west trust me folks we are going to be out of the deer business again on the pine valley!!!
 
Kody, Did the southern RAC vote for in favor of the 9 day or did the board decide to do this one on their own? Sorry I haven't been to a RAC meeting in about two years. For the most part I've been out of state during them and in the past when I've gone, I'm usually shooting blood out of my eyes by the time I leave from getting so pissed at the idiots. I still remember them saying everyone should be able to hunt limited entry elk every 5-7 years when they were passing that plan.

You're right though, we'll be out of the deer business in two years. I haven't hunted the pine valley herd since I moved 3 years ago but this sucks.
 
They decided on their own. The only people that wanted the hunt to go nine days were the people that hunted Saturday, went to church on Sunday, than had to work the next three days. They also had boys that were in school. Now these yahoos get to hunt two Saturdays and everyone else gets to hunt nine days.
That's the only reason why they changed it back!!!!
Asinine, thats what it boils down to. This goes right along the, lets give unlimited numbers of cow tags on the Fishlake.
Just ask the DWR, they've got it all figured out.
Thanks for letting me vent, i feel a whole hell of a lot better now, NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
think about it people on a 5 day hunt they shoot the first thing they see with horns a 9 day they will pass a few up a 9 day is more logical and better all around. the only people that don't want it to be 9 days is the locals cause they don't want out of towners down there for 9 days get over it people you don't own the south end of the state. so just get over it and quite boobing about it. it should go back to the 11 day hunt i think also.
 
Lets keep it 9 days. Lets just make it THREE POINT OR BETTER so it isnt a two point shoot. JMOP.
 
The DWR is always trying to find ways to allow opportunity and incease quality. A laudible goal. It seems that the 5 day did just that. Allowed ample opportunity, changing to the 5 day certainly did not reduce the popularity of the southern region, and was increasing quality.
 
I agree that bwould be a good idea to make it a three point or better that would save a ton of forkys and spikes for those who shoot those
 
greta idea man put it to 3 point or better that would save alot of the forkys and spikes for those who shoot those
 
Hey heavyone if you had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that the division will never go for a 3 point or better because that would mean they would actually half to have officers in the field to enforce it which would cost money and that aint happening and second of all who the hell cares if a local or a out of towner shoots them as long as there are any to shoot to begin with after we get done this year you are obviously new at this subject get the facts!!!!
 
I'm a dedicated hunter and the Pine Valley unit is all I hunt. Hunting is my passion. I want nothing but the best for my sport, and in my opinion the 5 day was the way to go. I've seen this unit at it's low and I've seen where it's come and I'm very happy with the results. Why can't the DWR learn from the past. Do they have to touch the stove to know it's hot. Can't they listen to the seasons of the past. As for the Opportunist, there are plenty of opportunities to hunt deer. Bow, Muzzleload, Rifle. There's the dedicated hunter program which gives plenty of opportunity. If you don't get a deer tag There's the opportunity to hunt elk. I know in the last 7 years I've had plenty of opportunity ask my wife she knows. Maybe it's not the deer hunt that give no opportunity but the circumstances of a persons lifetsyle that doesn't give the opportunity. Just my rambling opinion. (keep the herd alive with the five.)
 
I think there are a lot of mis conceptions on deer mamagement. First off, CO has up to six seasons for deer..... two of which are smack dab in the rut. Yet, year in and year out they maintain a healthy population of mature bucks. Why? Because they control the number of permits issued and not the number of days hunted. Sorry folks, but 9 days or 5 days it don't really matter.It's is a pathetic way to manage deer. If you have the mind set that you are going to kill the first buck with horns you'll have er done in the 1st couple days.....no problem! I'd wager that well over 75% of all hunters are done by the 1st weekend wether they kill or not. Not many folks who can or will take 9 days off work!

Mike
 
Maybe the 5 day hunt isn't the way to go for other units, but it sure helped on the Pine Valley. I live here and saw how bad it was, 4-5 bucks per 100 does in the 90s. The Pine Valley is a very unique deer unit. It has a type of habitat that doesn't exist anywhere else in the state. The winter range is mohave desert with joshua trees and black brush that is very wide open and has had catastophic fires in recent years that has opened it even more. The second weekend is always a slaughter with nowhere for the deer to hide.

Let the youth have 9 days. The last few days would be a great hunt for them with less pressure and a great time for the family to help junior get his buck.

The rest of us can chase big bucks the first 5 days.

3 years from now those of us that have seen the bad times, will say I told you so.

thanks
oakrush
 
When they first came out with the 5 day I kind of complained. But man have I changed my mind!

There really are starting to be a much better class of buck in places you never used to see them. My place is out in the boonies and most people who live and work out here agree that there is now more and better bucks and it just seems to be getting better year after year.

I think if it gets cold and snows it will be a slaughter.

That being said I wish everybody the best of luck and have a good time with friends and family.
 
Do you guys complaining about the 9 day hunt realize that had you done this in front of the RAC last Nov. you could have made the difference? When the vote was cast it was a tie either 4-4 or 5-5 either way the RAC chair had to vote and he went with the divisions 9 day hunt. Don't complain about the northern hunters either, the north and northeast RACs voted to keep the Southern unit a 5 day hunt. I do not remember what the vote was at the Big Game Board but they voted based on the division and the Southern RAC. A handful of concerned sportsmen at that RAC and the big game board, and the south might still be a five day hunt.
 
Are anyone of you taking into account the poor hunting conditions of last year, with hot weather, full moon etc. On top of that we had a fairly mild winter on the winter range and very wet spring. I believe that may have aided in the number of deer this year.

Several years ago,because of my job, I always had to take the middle of the rifle hunt off due to low seniority. It use to be the middle of the week was sparse with people. A few years back I began taking the whole week off (seniority thing). Still the middle of the week was empty. When the hunt went to a five day the whole hunt was crowded with the exception of the last night of the hunt. It may just be an individual perspective thing. I do believe the enviroment has alot to do with it. We just don't have the winter range we once had in Utah.
 
I was at a rac, and they said the same # of bucks were killed on a 9 day hunt as a 5 day hunt? Anyone else here this? Should of kept the five day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-09 AT 08:23PM (MST)[p]We did go to the RAC. The Division already had thier mind made up. They said that the same amount of bucks are killed on the 9 day hunt vs the 5. That may be, so the quantity of bucks stays the same, but the quality will go way down. That is for sure.

The division didn't even argue on that point

oakbrush
 
I believe the RAC meetings are all for show. The board & DWR does what they want, time and time again they have ignored the RAC requests.

VerticalSlope, The results from five day hunting have nothing to do with last years conditions. For myself and others have seen a change since it was implemented not just a one year hiccup. I've been hunting the Pine Valley unit since the mid '80's. I've noticed two things in that time that have had a positive impact on the deer herd. The first was when the state capped the number of deer tags sold to 97,000 (the first year doesn't count because the state cheated and way oversold), the second positive impact was going to a 5 day hunt.

Statewide we have much better winter range than we had five years ago due to sportsman's dollars and dedicated hunter man hours improving winter range. This should help the herd for years to come, but that alone isn't enough.

I believe the DWR is scared to REALLY address the deer situation for a number of reasons, no matter what they do a group of hunters will be really p.o'd. Second it is going to be a huge effort and require lots of work and SOUND management practices.

As was stated earlier, the pine valley herd is unique to the rest of the state and requires different management techniques. That is why we need micro-units. What works for one area doesn't work for another.

I think Utah can be one of the best mule deer producing states just like it has proven with elk, if the state will actually manage for it. I'd sure like to see it done in my lifetime.
 
Deadibob, I absolutely agree with the smaller management units. This would help each individual unit. I have hunted the pahvant unit since the 80's, as you have hunted your little neck of the woods. I hunted this unit when there were very limited bow hunters on top because of the rugged access.

When buck numbers go up on the Pahvant so do the hunter numbers. I personally have seen as many hunters out on the five day as with the nine day hunt. The past two years have made a difference in the buck numbers jumping up.

I help manage my family's property in this unit and I have seen the buck numbers jump this year, but there were very few bucks harvested last year in the unit due to warm weather and the full moon. I believe if they went to smaller subunits and managed them accordingly there may be an increase. I know the biologist in this unit has been frustrated for years. He makes reccomendations and is then shot down. He has tried to close winter range roads permantly and people rip down the signs and fences. I know because I have volunteered and help put some of these fences up. I think management begins with the hunters too. I haven't taken a buck in the last four years. Just looking for the right one.
 
I am one in favor of this change. In Utah our general season hunts--both for elk and deer--are not designed (nor should be in my opinion) to be trophy hunts. The DWR manages these hunts for a relatively low buck/doe ratio--15/100. This low ratio allows for a lot of opportunity and, at the same time, reduces the overall quality of the general season units. In my opinion, general season units should provide lots of opportunity. The great thing about general season deer hunting is that people are still able and still do shoot mature bucks, but most of the harvested deer are going to be yearling bucks. This is by design...

As for the change from a 5 to a 9 day hunt...whether you agree with the DWR numbers or not, they have statistically evidence on their side showing that 9 day hunts yield the same amount of harvest as 5 day hunts. The great/good thing about the current mule deer management plan is that if buck/doe ratios fall below that 15/100 on a three-year average, the hunt will go back to 5 days. Someone posted about why they thought the 3-year average is a bad thing...well, from my viewpoint, it is important that the DWR do NOT make changes to hunting opportunity solely on one year's numbers. Reasons for a dip in buck/doe ratios or fawn recruitment go beyond hunter harvest--perhaps the previous winter was bad and winterkill numbers were high, for example. If hunter harvest is NOT the limiting factor for low buck/doe ratios, why limit hunter harvest?

I, too, believe I have seen more mature bucks since the inception of the 5 day hunt...I cannot deny this. But, I am also willing to ask myself why. Is it simply a coincidence that the number of mature bucks is growing? I think so. When I look at the total number of deer in the units I hunt, I also notice that these units are growing from an overall herd standpoint. So, wouldn't an increase in total deer also yield an increase in total numbers of mature bucks? In my opinion, the key to improve the hunting of mature deer in our general season units is to increase the number of deer...

I have heard and seen numerous posts on this site and others that ask for a management of deer in Utah similar to that of Colorado. Personally, I hope this never happens for two reasons: 1) I don't want to lose so much opportunity to hunt...because Colorado manages for higher buck/doe ratios, they give less than half the number of deer tags 2) higher buck/doe ratios allow for slower overall deer herd growth rates. With higher numbers of bucks, deer units have fewer does...and, of course, with fewer does, fawn recruitment is lower and growth slows. Because most of our states deer herds are below objective, the DWR should be managing for lower buck/doe ratios to assure higher growth rates.

I have also seen and heard numerous posts on this site asking for a return to antler point restrictions such as 3-point or better management. In my opinion, nothing would be a bigger mistake. Antler point restrictions and specifically 3-point or better regulations have been tried over and over again on mule deer throughout the West and they have ALWAYS failed at producing more trophy-sized deer. The reason is simple--you cannot focus the entire harvest on the biggest deer and expect to have more big deer. Returning to antler point restrictions in Utah would be repeating past mistakes that every state in the West has already made and since learned from.
 
deadibob, you are right on the money on the rac its a dog and pony show for the public plain and simple.And as far as the pine valley goes it has to be mannaged as its own unit either as a east of hwy 18 or west of hwy 18 or as awhole either way it has to be changed and managed differently. And i to was at the southern rac that made the decision on this and they had their mind made up way before the meeting or they are as disfunctional as i have always claimed.
 
I have been hunting 50 years in the Southern Region and certainly agree on the 5 day and why would the BG Board make Monroe hunt the last five days rather than the first five days. The Game Management was great the first years of hunting, but has evolved to less than desirable for deer these last years. I think we must be getting the management people from the self servicing USA Congress reject pile.
 
Deadibob absolutly nailed it! Going to the rac is a waste of time. I have only talked to one person who was in favor of the nine day hunt change, and oddly enough, he's on a commitee. The reason for the change as explained to me was that they had reached their buck/doe ratio they wanted out of the 5 day plan. My question is...why ruin it again? And there is no question it will go back down.

Each of the southern unit deer herds are unique and different from one another. They need to be managed as such. Micro-managing these seprate herds would greatly increase ratios and age classes. The 9 day hunt simply ruins all of them. The five day hunt was working, and working well. Utah's habitat is basically unmatched for muleys. The dwr seems like they don't want to deal with them. More money in elk I guess???
 
This post went just as i figured 97,500 hunters 39 posters and a hell of alott of complainers sitting on there asses doing nothing!!!!!!
 
Just because you have a deer tag doesn't mean you have to shoot a deer if you don't find what you are looking for. Too many people "settle" for a forked horn or small 4 point becasue they can't find a big one. If you keep shooting the small ones they will never get big.

I am for a 9 day hunt as it gives you more time to try to find that once in lifetime buck.
 
Yes it is to bad Pine Valley had so much publicity and everyone is headed that way. I plan on hunting more remote areas where there are no other hunters or few. To many people think they just have to kill a deer and that hurts the system. The only alternative is less tags period.
 
Have any of you seen the proposals for 2010 thru 2014 . If 9 day vs 5 day has you wondering, wait til you see some of the new proposals-- general season deer and elk together around October 1 and then another general season deer at the end of October. I still keep asking myself why would they want to go in that direction.
 
If you want a once in a lifetime put in on a limited entry hunt. I've shot 1 deer in the past 5 years. Looking for mr. big.
 
Sounds like they are getting greedy for tag money and trying model after Colorado that has 4 seasons, 3 of them combined Deer and Elk.

And trust me I do put in for Limited entry....every year.
 
Im not apposed to a split hunt just apposed to nine straight days because on the pine valley nine straight days pushes them into barren ground we all put in for le permits for deer and heres what intriges me buck to doe ratios on general season are set low by dwr and on le units there high as hell why ? the division has their cake and eats it to plain and simple its time for a big change and we as sportsmen in these unique areas need to be loud as hell and be listened to.


' we need to be putting the resource first'
 
I think a petition with several thousand signatures would carry some weight at the RAC meetings. That would be a little harder to ignore. I'd sign it.
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Bottom line is more days hunting more deer killed?.This is a fact not an opinion?..The DWR have said it their selves, ?since we have gone to the 5 day hunt buck-to-doe ratios are above objective so we will go back to the 9 day hunt to lower buck-to-doe ratios.? I am not sure where people are getting the idea that the same # of bucks are killed on the 5 day hunt. Why would we go back to a 5 day hunt to higher buck-to-doe ratios if the same # of bucks were killed on the 5 day as the 9 day hunt? I don't think we will see a big decline in buck-to-doe ratios this year (although we will see some decline) because of the early dates but next year when the hunt starts nearly a week later I believe we will see a slaughter.

I would much rather stay with the 5 day hunt. I very rarely shoot a deer but find myself turning down more and more mature bucks these past few years. I spend quite a bit of time watching them on their winter ranges. I guess there will be a lot fewer bucks to turn down and to look at now.

It took several seasons of the 5 day hunt to get where we are today and it will all be gone in just two short years. DARN IT?

MORE DAYS = MORE OPPORTUNITY = MORE BUCKS HARVESTED?..Whether you like it or not this is a FACT?? You can speculate all you want but that is just what it is, speculation not fact....
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-09 AT 09:07AM (MST)[p]This post cracks me up. Chits been debated time and again on this site. Some of you have done a 180, some have done a 360. Maybe the deer numbers answer lies in weather, predator control, and winter kill, not days hunted. I guess we will see, cuz ITS A NINE DAY HUNT this year.

You Pine Valley hunters just basically told all 12,000 Southern Rifle hunters where to be on the second weekend this year. Awesome job of self-promoting your own unit.

The decision to implement a nine day hunt was made over 10 months ago. Little late to ballgame, eh?

Whether you like the change or not, get involved in the process. Posting your opinion on MM is not being "involved." In fact, its being lazy and just spouting off your chit without a clue what you are saying most of the time, this post and its thread is a perfect example.

You want chit to change for next year, get involved.
 
It is to late to complain but maby if we can get people worked up it will help in the future when after the next five years of rebuilding the heard it is finally good again.

I have hunted the pine vally unit for the past twenty years and it is the best I have ever seen it.

I believe it is a combanation of hunt lenght and preditor control.

We have to all speek up and be heard at the racks this year and get it changed. west of 18 will be nothing but blood and a city of solid orange I for one will be elsewhere I dont think I can stand to see the slaughter.
 
My proposal, state your age when you respond to this post, I am 35 which means I grew up hunting a second weekend. It also means I was with dad during the 80's when they killed nothing but big deer and there were over 200,00 orange clads in the field. What has changed. In the north suburban sprawl took winter range, a given, also huge chunks of ground became CWMU's which concentrated pressure on small areas killing off herds. I have hunted manti(before it was split down main street into the central and southeast) all my life. Sanpete county is nearly the same as it was in the 80's yet there are no deer, why? No huge loss of winter range. Huge range, no massive winter kills, lots of cats, but probably not more than in the 80's. What has changed is elk. Elk are out competing the mule deer for food, range etc. as will the whitetail as is starts to invade utah. Guys we are arguing about 4 days when the problem is the animal itself. Look at the facts, colorado is killing big deer, but only half of the tags go out as in the past. Shouldn't Wyoming be covered with nothing but huge deer, there is nothing from evanston to cheyene, most of the state is winter range, not a lot of people, is their a population mule deer population boom in wyoming? Call it global warming, climate change, evolution, whatever but elk numbers are booming, whitetail numbers are booming, mule deer numbers keep droping and I have a hunch that the three are connected. So argue about 4 days in the south, but I think the problem has a hell of a lot more to do with biology than bullets! Lastly, us Yahoos who might want to take our kids with and not have them out of school so we want two weekends so they can hunt are doing the right thing, its the dudes that leave the kids home so they can be a "trophy hunter" that have it wrong, trophy hunting is a disease!!!
 
HEY NICK, EVEN US SO CALLED TROPHY HUNTERS TAKE OUR KIDS EVERYWHERE WE HUNT AT LEAST I DO AND I SPEND A LOTT MORE TIME ON THEIR HUNTS THAN MINE SO DONT PULL THAT CRAP CARD ON ME I GUESS IM WRONG TO WANT MY KIDS TO HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY AT MATTURE ANIMALS AS I DID AND REMEMBER WHEN SCHOOL PRETTY MUCH SHUT DOWN IN THE SOUTH FOR THE HUNT AND IT DIDNT KILL ANY OF US .
 
It shut down in all of utah, and like I said it was a two weekend hunt, and nearly 200,000 hunters were in the field also. Trophy hunting isn't a crime, its the damn all else in the name of trophy hunting that is. Since I have been around we have moved hunts away from the rut( i loved the muzz hunt in nov.), split the state into regions, limited to 97,000 tags, tried 5 day hunts, fed in the winter, killed cats, build freeway crossings, etc., etc, and what has happend, nothing. The deer herds are a small shadow of what they were. Why? I think it is simply the mule deers inability to compete. They lose out to whitetail, and they are currently loosing to elk. I think it interesting that as elk numbers have exploded in Utah, Mulies have crashed, and 4 days of hunting or not hunting isn't going to change it. Before anyone talks about colorado, look at the ammount of tags they have cut down to in order to create their "superior" deer herds. Even in the great Colorado overall muley numbers are down long term. You can't keep cutting tags and limiting oppurtunity in the name of killing more "quality" animals, because in the end you end up with the same downward slide the deer are in, and fewer of our young people who care because they could never draw a tag and therefore lost interest. I personally have had dedicated tags for the last six years, killed one deer, mostly because I have been killing elk and didn't have a use for the meat. Don't kill all the little ones and there might be big ones, but don't encourage the utah DWR to do anything, other than go away or we all will regret it
 

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