DWR Mule Deer Slaughter proposal?

cantkillathing

cantkillathing

Very Active Member
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The Utah DWR are proposing to have two 9 day rifle hunts in 2011? What a Joke. Utah does not have the mule deer to support this. It is to split the 97,000 hunters into two different hunts. This will increase success rates and slaughter the remaining deer we have. I predict in one year of this that we will fall below the buck to do ratio.
If you do not like the idea, be sure to attend your local RAC meeting this week.
If they want two rifle hunts it should be two 5 day hunts. Start one on Saturday end on wednesday, start second one on the following saturday and end on wednesday. Youth hunters can hunt both hunts to get there 2 weekends. Muzzleloader should not fall between the 2 hunts, needs to be before or go back to having it later.
Muzzleloader LE elk hunters are getting a bottle of vasiline to help sooth the pain...
Better attend and voice your concerns.
 
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I couldn't agree more. I would support 2 4 or 5 day hunts.. never two 9 day hunts..
Later, Brandon
 
I think if they had the earlier hunt 7 days and the later hunt 5 days....it would be perfect. We need two rifle hunts to spread the pressure around. The amount of pressure on the UT rifle hunt is absurd. Keep in mind, they will issue the same amount of permits, but spread them out between two seasons.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-09 AT 11:07AM (MST)[p]Cabin Fever, if you read my post you should realize I am aware that they are trying to spread out hunters, but bad idee for the mule deer, great idea for the hunter. We will see to much of an impact on the mule deer to have two nine day hunts, also having an earlier rifle will have a huge success rate, most mule deer in the late october are in transition to winter grounds and escape the hunters because of being in transition, hunting them in the first of october will have higher success, thats why the muzzleloader hunt is currently there, using rifle that early is a bad idea.

Not everyone needs to be successful during the hunts, that is why we call it hunting....who cares if you see more hunters, there use to be alot more before they put a cap on it. Most hunter road hunt, get off the roads and you will see less hunters.
 
So is your gripe the 9 day hunts or the fact that they split them??

I know from talking with Anise Aude from the DWR the statistics they keep show no real benefit to doing the 5 day hunts. The harvest is sometimes higher because hunters spend all 5 days in the field instead of 1 or 2 each weekend with the 9 day hunt.

It seems Colorado does pretty well splitting up the hunts but they have shorter than 9 day hunts? Maybe they need to tweak the proposal a bit.

I also agree the muzzy deer should be before either of the rifle hunts or much later.
 
Heck i think they should have a year round hunt ha ha ha
YOU AINT GOING TO KILL A BIG BUCK UNLESS THERE IS A BIG BUCK WHERE YOUR HUNTING!!!
 
Most deer are hunted year round by predators.

Cantkillathing - how will this proposal increase success ratios? Personally, I think with less hunters in the hills for two hunts, success ratios will be much lower.

I know its hard not to rush to judgment anytime the DWR does something, especially when it appears to actually give RIFLE hunters a more enjoyable experience. But, I don't see this being a negative at all.
 
My grip is that Utah does not have the deer herd to support 18 days of rilfe hunting. I don't mind the split if it was how I put it in the original post, I should go as Archery, muzzleloader, then two 5 day rifle hunts, each starting on a saturday and ending on a wednesday. Or keep it how it is one 9 day hunt.

Buckstophere: how will this not impact negatively on the deer herd, two different rifle hunts, seperate by two weeks, the deer calm back down long enought to get shot at again. atleast with one nine day hunt they are stirred up and have a chance to make it through another year.

Success rates will be much Higher.
 
I don't think success rates will be higher. Look at CO and their hunt structure. They have multiple rifle hunts for deer and I just don't understand how having 2 hunts will result in more dead deer as long as permit numbers stay the same. With fewer hunters out there pushing stuff around it might even lower success rates. That being said, I don't like the changes as proposed. I would rather the season structure just stay the way it is, and if increased quality is desired then cut permit numbers. Just my personal opinion.

Dax
 
Its Easy to sit and B**** about it. Not to hijack your thread. BUT HOW MANY OF YOU ON HERE THAT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE PROPOSAL ARE GOING TO GO TO THE R.A.C. MEETING AND SPEAK OUT.
I don't agree with most of the proposal so I'm going. How about you?
 
I will be at one of the meetings..

I sure wish we would quit comparing Utah with Colorado, until we have 100 units to manage from quit comparing Utah with colorado...
 
If you come out in force to the RAC meetings they will change some things in the proposals. Its the Wildlife Board you have to impress. The RACs don't have alot of leverage in adopting proposals. I have seen all the RACs vote one way and the Wildlife Board go completely the other way. From the e-mails and conversations I have had there is a major uprising begining with deer hunters in the state. One group has already contacted some county commissioners and would like to close the entire southern region. If the southern region is that bad-- what does that say about the condition the deer herds are in the rest of the state.
What would you rather have a good hunt every 3 years or a poor hunt every year ? How do we accomplish that ?
 
The DWR statistics for a 5 day hunt vs. 9 day hunt are skewed. After the first year of 5 day hunts there were a higher percentage of bucks, so naturally harvest ratios went up. That alone is proof that the 5 day hunt helped. I'd like to see what the harvest rate was on the 9 day Southern rifle hunt this year. Most people I know killed a deer. Those that didn't were very selective.

Besides DWR data is incomplete and guesswork at best. They have no idea what's going on until they get a harvest report from every individual tag holder.

The DWR is like any other gov't agency they play with the data to make it support their desires.

I'm not against multiple hunts but shorten them. The dates need to be changed as well. Who is going to want to hunt with a muzzleloader the day after a rifle hunt ended? Not me.
 
DeadI,

I agree the numbers are sketchy at best and can always be twisted to prove one way or another. But in the end, that is what they have to base management on.

I am not sure what will help our herds right now, but closing the whole southern region? What a joke. One thing is for sure, the deer herd need some attention.

I also agree that we need to attend the RAC's and then everyone needs to attend the Wildlife Board meeting. That is where the decisions get made with very little input from the public.
 
2 BUCKS TO 10,000 DOES THATS THE RATIO THEIR LOOKING FOR, IF YOU ASK ME THEY NEED TO GET A LITTLE MORE AGRESSIVE AND SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME ON THEIR WINTER COUNTS, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ADDING UP
 
I say try it out. Sure seems like 6 of one vs. half a dozen of the other. If right now you have X number of hunters in the field for 9 days, the change will be 1/2X hunters in the field for 18 days. Actual hunter days in field will be virtually the same. Unless one or the other falls into the rut I don't see where the slaughter comes from.
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The problem is not the pressure there is plenty of mountain for the deer to hide. The big problem is as it stands now they really dont have much of a deer herd to manage, they need to fix that then set the hunts up to maintain a healthy heard
 
This proposal of hunting these deer for 3 weeks straight is a travesty in the making. And while it will reduce crowding and most likely increase success rates which might benefit hunters in the short term....... BUT when do the deer come first?

As a member of the Mule Deer Committee, it troubles me that the Wildlife Board gave a directive to the UDWR which was not presented to the Mule Deer Committee for input. The Wildlife Board wanted the UDWR to come up with ways to decrease crowding on deer hunts. So how crowded was it 15-20 years ago when there were 200,000+ hunters afield? Now we have 70,000 or so rifle hunters and it is crowded?

The 5 day hunts save deer. The deer which are saved the first year then become older age class and can be harvested in following years. Of course success rates go up, as there are more bucks available for harvest. BUT just because there are more bucks does not mean we kill all the saved bucks from prior years. I watched the 5 day hunts work on the Nebo in the early 2000s, during the 500 year drought. I watched it work on most of the Southern Region.
 
They've got the right idea in that there needs to be 1/2 as many tags issued for a hunt. Then they screwed it up again by proposing 2 of those hunts.
 
Packout
Cantkillathing
nebo

If you made the proposal two 5 day hunts back to back "10 days total" It wont be an issue! you will have less crowding issues and it will save more deer than you think!

You however cannot allow the deer to relax or it will be like two opening mornings.

I want to know your honest response to my plan. I want to see why it wont work.

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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Good points packout but 20 years ago there were people dispersed all over no ut. Now you've got mostly private cwmus with hunters stacked on top of each other on the public.
 
cantkillathing

If they hold the rifle hunt during the exact same time as the muzzy hunt than we may see success go up but if they hold both rifle hunts in late october than we will see about the same success or maybe lower. Putting the 1st hunt in mid october would put the deer in the middle of migration and I think you'd see lower than normal success rates. If we are going to continue to lump every rifle hunter into one season without lowering tag numbers I am 100% for 2 seasons. CO has up to 6 season in many units and 4 of those are rifle hunts....two of which are in the rut. They kill 3 times the big bucks we do here in Utah. Utah has made it apparent they aren't going to lower tags number so why not make the woods a little less crowded with two back to back hunts....I think 9 days is too long but, I think a 5-7 day hunt would work.
 
What do they propose to do with the dedicated hunters? They better NOT get to hunt both hunts. If you want to get rid of the crowding problem in Utah get rid of the dedicated hunter program. You 10,000 thousand hunters hunting all of the hunts now. Limit thenm to one and the pressure will go down. Before you all get bent pout of shape I was a dedicated hunter for 12 years and got out last year. Too much pressure on deer and the projects are busy work for the mostpart.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-09 AT 08:30PM (MST)[p]Packout, I did not realize they didn't go through the committee, that has to suck being on such a committee and not be involved in the process. It seems as though they just threw this idea together without thinking it through.
 
The ONLY management tools that they DWR can currently use when it comes to our deer herd are:

1. Tweaking the season start/end dates.

2. Shorten/Lenghten the seasons.

Neither of these will ever make a significant impact on the QUALITY of our deer herd.

If buck to doe ratios and quality are ever going to improve there HAS to be a reduction in the AMOUNT OF TAGS (Harvest) issued.


Some people are comparing the proposed split hunts to the hunts that Colorado has. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Colorado has almost twice the deer population Utah has. And they issue far fewer deer tags. That is a big reason why the quality of their deer herd is so superior to ours. They don't harvest as many deer, and their buck to doe ratios are much higher.

If we could ever get a new and different deer management strategy passed (which a group of us will be working on this week at the RAC's), Hunters in Utah would have to be willing to give up something to get something in return.

I really belive that we need some changes in how our deer herd is managed, because I really do not see much management happening at the moment. Our first and ultimate priority is going to be improving the quality of the deer herds in Utah.

BowHuntr
 
cantkillathing

maybe the reason you "can't kill a thing" is there are too many hunters and not enough deer.LOL!Seriously though, anyone thats hunted Utah knows that if you are hiking away from a road you are getting closer to another one. The amount of rifle hunters on Utah's rifle hunt is nothing short of a circus.Something has got to change!I'm not the only one who is sick of the crowds on the rifle hunt. The DWR is not willing to sell fewer tags so 2 seasons is the only way to break up the crowds.

At least where I hunt in So Utah many of the deer would be migrating through private during the middle of October.A 1st season rifle hunt during this time would probably save a lot of bucks. My proposal would be a 7 day hunt the 2nd Saturday of October followed by a 2nd rifle hunt on the 3rd Saturday of October.Micromanagement is the real answer, but Utah has too many hunters who are content to kill 1-2 year old deer every year.

Five day hunts -vs- nine day hunts;one rifle season -vs- two rifle seasons.Does it really matter! All we are doing is re-shuffling the deck if we are issuing the same amount of tags.
 
I do think the muzzy guys are getting shafted, but to advocate putting the date back to where it was (end of october and the first week of november) with the inlines we're shooting today would be bad IMO unless it was a limited entry hunt (like the crawford). Any hunt in november should be (1) limited entry, and (2) primative weapon. I think splitting the rifle into 2 hunts is a good idea, but as has been stated, I think it should be tweaked. Back-to-back 5 day hunts would be the ticket. And give fewer tags for the first hunt so that it makes a bit tougher to draw that way you make people "pay" for first crack at them.
 
dates I want dates!!! seems like its pure speculation and what the objective is here..they won't overlap LE dates right?
not going to be a late season RUT hunt right..the 5 day hunt was a joke because of the time factor (no one wanted to get skunked when that yearling was begging to be jerked or BBQ'ed) so meat hunter took what they see first!
I honestly think the thing may work! and the bucks harvested each year later will be bigger and bigger..... because the pressure on them will change! because the later date will no doubt be a hecka lot less hunter given tags...works only if the quota is cut drastically

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rackmaster
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-09 AT 07:16AM (MST)[p]I find it funny that they are doing this to limit the number of hunter in the field at one time....So Why would you run the general elk hunt the same time as the proposed first rifle hunt?.....Not everyone out there will be hunting elk and deer at the same time.

>dates I want dates!!! seems like its pure speculation and what >the objective is here..they won't overlap LE dates right?


They are Overlaping LE dates. The muzzy LE elk Hunters WILL have to hunt with the LE rifle hunters.

I don't think the problem is so much everyone hunting at the sametime or splitting it into two seasons. I don't really see this fixing the current problem with the deer numbers and quility. All this will do is limit the number of people hunting during the general season at one time which is what the WB wanted.

I think the one biggest thing they need to do for the deer herd is CUT TAGS. As much as I hate to say that its true. Look at CO. They lost alot of deer a few years ago due to a bad winter. Utah also lost many deer due to that winter. Did Utah do anything....NOT really...CO. cut tag numbers. Some areas got tag numbers cut alot.

The other thing I hate about this proposal is what they are doing to the muzzy hunters.

One thing I think they should look at doing two larger hunts but split it up between the muzzy hunters. Split the tags in half. Do the two 9 day hunts but make the first of those hunt Muzzy and the secound rifle. Currently they tags are out of the same pool. But Im not a WB member so what would a hunter that spend alot of time in the hill hunting know about these things
 
I for one want to be able to hunt every year for deer. In reducing tag numbers that will become impossible unless some how I become rich over night(not likely). I am for any other option though that will help our deer herd. ex.(shorter seasons, more primitive less rifle, smaller units, maybe a shotgun season, and etc). I am sick of hearing about reducing tags and raising prices to compensate.
 
I am with you Max on that, I want to be able to hunt every year, I think the deer herd needs a major ovarhaul, a fresh start, Utah should shut down the hunt completely for one year-statewide, all deer tags, no exceptions while they can come up with a better plan on the deer.
No CWMU tags, No auction tags, nothing on mule deer for 1 year. By then have a good solid micro manage units setup thoughout the state.
 
Why did Southern Utah go to a 5 day hunt? Buck-to-doe ratios were under objective and the quickest way to increase the number of bucks is to kill less of them. Why is it in the DWR management plan to go from a 9 day hunt to a 5 day hunt if buck-to-doe ratios fall below objective?????

Less days hunting = fewer deer killed....More days hunting = more opportunity = more deer killed?..this is not speculation this is a fact?.The DWR has said so itself?..

The deer will now be hunted 18 days for the rifle hunt compared to 5. Do the math....

THERE IS NO WAY THIS WILL BENEFIT THE DEER. Southern Utah is the best it has been for as long as I can remember and I believe it is because of the 5 day hunt. WHY CHANGE WHEN THE FIVE DAY HUNT WAS SO SUCCESSFULL?.?

The only way Utah could have two separate rifle seasons and not over harvest is to draw tags for the 30 management units instead of the five regions. This will most likely never happen because it requires more Conservation Officers to enforce and more staff overall. Which means more money the DWR needs which means more hunters.

There is no way you can compare Utah to Colorado?.Colorado has more than two times the number of deer as Utah (even after their huge winter kills) and has far more habitat to support them?..

There is not one person I have talked to that is for the proposed changes?..BAD IDEA?..
 
I have a new question since so many people keep trying to compare us to Colorado. Where is the info coming from that says they have twice the deer and only put out half the tags? I just got off colorado's website and it shows that for 09 they had 155,000 available deer tags in the state of Colorado between resident, non-resident, and youth. Utah's is around 100,000 with what they show on their stats. Thats including archery and limited entry. I am starting to really believe that micro-managing and multiple short seasons is where there success comes from not less tags.

Here is Colorado's info:
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/248BE341-3A17-4AE7-9895-2F784F2FAB18/0/Deer09HuntRecap.pdf
Here is Utah's info:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/09_stats/11.pdf
 
I don't think splitting the seasons will hurt the deer population. Someone mentioned above what really hurts the deer, weather. If you have a bad winter, you lose deer. When you eliminate winter ranges and deer habitat, you lose deer. Hunters never have shot out a population of deer. I am all for splitting the seasons to reduce pressure. People will still have the same issues in their personal lives with 2 rifle seasons that they do now with 1. There are a few people that have the opportunity to hunt the entire season, but not everyone can or will. The same number of hunter days will be used with 2 seasons as there were with one. Why not lessen the crowds? It will surely increase hunter satisfaction and I don't think it will have any negative effects on the deer. I do think the muzzleloaders will get the shaft on this one. Deer learn very fast what is happening and adapt. They will do the same with a change in seasons here. I hunted the buck/bull combo this year. I can honestly say that the deer were just as wary during this hunt than they are in the regular rifle hunt.

I am personally sick of the crowds. 4 of the last 6 years I have hunted a remote section of the west desert just to get away from the crowds. There are very few deer in this area and I have went days without seeing a single deer, or another person for that matter. Even though we occasionally would see a good buck out there, I would like to hunt somewhere closer to home. Reducing the number of hunters in the field at one time would do it for me.
 
97,000 tags bow,muzzy,rifle + dedicated program, does not matter what they do its only going to get worse. They need to build the herd and then manage it. If that means shutting it down then that is what they need to do
 
Jam, you will have the same amount of hunters hunting the same amount of deer, but divided into two seasons. I think 9 days is a bit long but 7 days would be a good compromise. The only problem would be the dedicated hunters, which could be solved by making them pick a rifle season or making them alternate rifle seasons during their 3 year enrollment.

You said:

"Less days hunting = fewer deer killed....More days hunting = more opportunity = more deer killed?..this is not speculation this is a fact?.The DWR has said so itself"

the reason they went back to a 9 day hunt is the DWR reported no change in buck harvest. Also keep in mind that just because the hunt is 9 days does not mean every hunter is going to hunt 9 days.If you talk to the average hunter, I think you will find that most guys are hard pressed to hunt more than 3-4 days. Most people just can't swing it with work schedules.I'd wager that the average days hunted is about 3?



Max1

Consequently, with micromanaging their has to be tag cuts but they don't have to be big tag cuts.We could have some killer units in Utah and still be able to hunt every 2-3 years on some well managed non crowded units if Utah would pull their head out and micromanage.Unfortunately, there are two many people who love crowds, road hunting, and killing yearling bucks.

Almost all the western states micromanage deer whilst Utah continues to manage hunters.It just doesn't make sense!

Mike
 
I've got an idea that will simplify the system and spread out hunters. Lets just open it up to all weapon types for all species August 1 to February 1. On second thought--why give the animals 5 months off??? Lets go July 1 to March 1. Geez, maybe we ought to just go year-round hunting.

Give the animals a break and quit hunting them so long!! Cut tag numbers!! If you dont like crowds--stay home or go get a Colorado tag. Anyone that thinks two deer hunts will lead to less buck harvest has got their head stuck up a dark place. Give the poor things a break! There will still be more than enough hunters in each season to be effective and killing most anything with antlers!! I am sure glad I am not a buck deer in Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-09 AT 11:43AM (MST)[p]
Im kind of embarrassed that some of you are Utah Deer hunters.

Its starting to become pretty clear to me why the Wildlife Board doesn't listen to the RAC comments if its Utards making those comments that think like most of these suggestions.

You are hunters for God's sake, act like it.
 
Here is my proposal!

All general season dates stay the same with the addition of a rifle hunt the 2nd week of October. Run both rifle hunts 7 days. Dedicated hunters alternate between rifle hunts during their 3 year enrollment (ie early hunt 1st year,late hunt 2nd year, early hunt 3rd year). Why couldn't this work! I think it's a great compromise.
 
I am not saying that the buck harvest will be less, but I am saying that I don't think it will be significantly higher. Change is good. You will always have differing opinions on change, but this change "in my opinion" is moving in the right direction.

Look at the new spike hunt that opened on all LE units. I saw tons of traffic earlier this year on how it is going to decrease the quality of the elk herds in those units. I, on the other hand, saw it as an opportunity opened to those that want to hunt spike elk and would not threaten the overall health of the herd or reduce quality. There are only so many LE bull tags given. I have read reports that the bull to cow ratio on some units are about 50/50. Why not have spike hunts to bring the numbers closer to what they should be. You still have numerous spikes make it to the next season and you are not killing all the big bulls in the process. It also reduces the pressure on those units that have had continual spike harvest for years. Even on those units that have had spike harvest for years the hunting is fantastic and some bruiser bulls killed every year.

Now, I know that elk and deer are apples and oranges in comparison. But, ovverall I see the change as a starting point to better managed units, better opportunity, multiple seasons, etc. If you want to see opposition, create 27 units in one season and tell people they can't hunt deer for a couple of years because there aren't enough tags in the unit that they have been hunting their entire life. This has been done before with creating 5 regions, and you still have upset people over that change because they want to hunt S. Utah and can't draw a tag every year. You have to transition into changes like that. I personally am all for smaller units and less tags, but also realize that not everyone is a trophy hunter and would like to harvest a deer every year. The DWR has to balance the needs of all hunters, just not the trophy hunters that frequent sites like this.

We need to recruit new hunters every year to keep our voice heard in the years to come or we will become another California and not be able to hunt squat. I want to hunt every year, even though I don't kill every year. I can't afford to go to Colorado or Wyoming or any other state. I am not willing to stay home, thus going to the desert to somewhere out of the way. I am selective in what I harvest. I have killed a deer only 3 times in the last 10-12 years or so. With the exception of 1 year, it was not for a lack of seeing bucks. But, I also got to experience my 12 year old's excitement this year as he harvested his first big game animal. It was only a 2 point, but by the look on his face it didn't matter.

I have talked to a lot of people about the changes. Most that I have discussed it with are very excited about the possibility of a change. They feel the way I do about lessening the crowding.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-09 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]Everyone I have talked to is against two 9 day rifle hunts. I am for 2 rifle hunts but not the way it is suggested, Archery should stay the same, muzzleloader should go second, and then an early rifle starting on a saturday and ending on wednesday and then a 2nd rifle starting on saturday and ending on wednesday, or a 2nd rifle starting on thursday and ending on wednesday, so the 1st hunt would be 5 days and 2nd hunt 7 days.

Quit saying we need to recruit more hunters, obviously we are talking about this subject because of too many hunters.
 
Cabinfever, not trying to argue here but could you tell me why the Monroe and Nebo units went to a five day hunt if their buck-to-doe ratios are below the management objective set by the Dvision? Is it possibly because this is the best and quickest way to increase the buck-to-doe ratios without cutting tags? There might not have been a change in buck harvest but I will guarantee you there was a change in buck-to-doe ratios. Bottom line is more days in the field will result in more deer getting harvested.

Max1, it is obvious that if Utah were to cut tags and micro-manage their deer herd the hunting would improve. As I mentioned in my previous post, it is likely this will not happen due to the need for more Conservation Officers and staff to patrol and implement such a plan. More cost and less hunters?probably not going to happen. Also, you mentioned that Colorado issued 155,000 deer tags this year. That would equal to about 25% of tags vs available deer. You stated that Utah issued about 100,000 tags this year. That would equal to about 33% of tags vs available deer. In order for Utah to compare to Colorado they would need to cut tags to 75,000 a 25,000 decrease in tags to get the 25%. Not going to happen??Utah just doesn't have the budget to manage like Colorado nor does Utah have the deer numbers and habitat to do so.
 
I agree JAM. They already are not staffed well enough as it is. I haven't ran in to a DWR officer on the mountain for the past six years now. I believe what ever we do we need to start out with small steps and evaluate what changes come of them. If positive continue in that direction. That means sometimes we might like the change and sometimes we won't, but if we are unwilling to go in with an open mind we will never know what might mork best.
 
I just want everyone to get involved and get out to the RAC meetings the next few days. I am looking forward to going to Brigham City, and if necessary voice my opinion. Should be the best turn out to a RAC in Utah history...do you think they will have popcorn at the show?

Dillon
 
So cut the tags and increase resident deer tags from $35 to $70.

More deer, more conservation officers.

Done and Done.

Grizzly
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-09
>AT 12:36?PM (MST)
>
>
>Quit saying we need to recruit
>more hunters, obviously we are
>talking about this subject because
>of too many hunters.

So what do I tell my 8 year old who wants to hunt one day? That a bunch of greedy armchair biologists say there are to many hunters. What is obvious is that too many rules and regs are set by government being influenced by the masses wants or opinions rather than the biological needs of the "herd". Since I moved here 11 years ago splitting the hunt into 2 hunts to spread out the pressure and make the general hunt a little more bearable is the best idea yet for general deer hunting in utah. I wish they would do even more as Colorado does. Still there is a bunch of pizzing and moaning that the sky is gonna fall yodeling by those that don't have a clue. More deer are killed by cars every year than hunters. That is more of a problem than hunting seasons and dates will ever be - what are YOU doing about that? Let the real biologist do their job.............
 
Almost more fun than one can handle.
When big subjects are up for discussion it makes for a long night. I will still man up and go to the central RAC.




Bucks and bulls may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!
 
extex

my son will start hunting next year and personally I don't want his first exposure to hunting to be a sea of orange. I'd rather he hunt every 2-3 years and have a quality experience.There are plenty of oppurtunity to fill the gaps with antlerless tags. Crowds don't equal a good experience......course I'm just one man with one opinion.

Maybe that is our problem.....there is to many opinions. Sadly, wether we have one rifle hunt or two, I think the same amount of deer will be harvested,and in my observations that is exactly the problem. We harvest too many deer.
 
extex

I am curious where you got your information that more deer are killed by car's every year then by hunters. I ask this because I don't know. And the reason there seam to be so many "arm chair biologists" out there is because I bet most of the people posting on this thred have lived in Utah for more then 11 years and they have a life time vested in the deer herds here. They may not be biologists, but I bet most of them could do a better job then the real biologists.

I dont see why we cant have both quality and quanity in our deer herds. I dont think that will happen with the proposed plans. I think if you put that much more stress on an already stressed animal the mortality rate is going to go up.
 
Packout and nebo
you guys are on the mule deer comity again here is a question I want answered by guys that are in the know

Cantkillathing this is your post so Im throwing it out to you again.

If you made the proposal two 5 day hunts back to back "10 days total" It wont be an issue! you will have less crowding issues and it will save more deer than you think!

You however cannot allow the deer to relax or it will be like two opening mornings.

I want to know your honest response to my plan. I want you to tell me why it wont work?

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
This whole issue is about comparing Utah to Colorado. The problem with this comparison is that Colorado has significantly more natural mule deer habitat than Utah.
In my opinion the decline in mule deer numbers in Utah is directly related to the "environmental wacko" theories which have dominated the management of federal lands for the last couple of decades or so. This theory revolves around the idea that the land should be returned to its native state. The reality is that as this theory has been applied Utah has seen a more drastic effect on wildlife- particularly deer (in my opinion because elk win the competition for resources), than Colorado because Utah is naturally less productive than Colorado.
Unfortunately, I think we are going to find that mimicking Colorado may not produce the same results as Colorado.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-09 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]It has nothing to do with colorado

it has everything to do with people complaining about over crowding issues. The southern boys are over corwded the northen boys are over crowded. You cant go anywhere without seeing orange on the rifle hunts

The divisions plan could work if its applied properly.

I ask again WTH is wrong with two 5 day hunts splitting up the rifle hunters. Especially if it is back to back total of 10 days long!

It would be no different than a 9 day season except you wont have a deer get shot at an run over the hill to get slammed by someone else. you will also have educated deer on the second season. I guarantee you will have less deer killed than the way it is run right now.

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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I think people should stop complaining about them being crowded and start worrying about the deer. That's what this is all about. Maybe i am missing something somewhere but are the proposing these two 9 day hunts to stop over crowding hunters, or what? If you want to stop over crowding get rid of some tags.
 
this is what they are trying to do. give opertunity and still hunt better bucks. If you guys want to shoot out of your truck window and have less hunters pick your Le hunt.

I guess know one can argue against my point. You just circle jerk around it. To me it means you Must agree with it and to you its not about managment its about you.

I cant believe you rifle hunters would want to cut your cranks off so to speak. Or cut your opportunity!



4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I guess I could see two five day hunts, I would prefer one five day hunt but if they eventually have two hunts I would rather see two five instead of two nine. I have been hunting for over seventeen years now and I have seen ups and downs in deer numbers in the southern part of the state where I hunt. This year I was able to kill my biggest buck to date, and I do believe it was in direct relation to the previous years five day season.

If we don't do something now to sustain what we have and even grow the herd that we have we wont have any opportunity any more. That goes for bow, muzzle loader and rifle hunters. I guess it is all in what you are looking for more opportunity or better quality or both.
 
swbuckmaster. I agree with you If it is 2 5 day hunts I think it would work. 2 nine day hunts would be detrimental to the herds I believe. I think 5 day hunts with half the hunting pressure would produce a more enjoyable and better quality hunt. Hunter days afield would be pretty much what we have now, only now it happens all at once.

The hunts should be run closely together or even consecutively. My problems with this plan as proposed is basically:

2 nine day rifle hunts.

Muzzy hunt to start after the 1st rifle hunt ends.

running elk and deer hunts together would offset the whole idea of reducing hunters numbers afield at one given time.

We still haven't addressed one major problem, with 5 units there are roughly 11,000-13,000 rifle hunters in that unit at one given time. When one area of that unit has a particularly good harvest, word spreads and the following year that area gets gang-raped by flocks of hunters. The only way to stop the gang-raping is to break up the units. This would spread the hunters out so there could not be such a convergence on one small area of the unit.
 
SWBUCKMASTER, I dont see anything wrong with your plan, I personally wouldn't want the second five day hunt after the first five day hunters, I figure a 2 day gap between the two hunts wouldn't be too bad, Like I have previously stated start a hunt on Saturday-Wednesday, Thursday and Friday hunters can pack out and new hunters can move in and Open again on Saturday-Wednesday hunt.
 
the only guys Nebo and packout that seriously can make a change have not even responded.

start the muzzy season 5 days before the rifle season so you have a 15 day hunt and you still give the muzzy guys a hunt.

This is in my mind the only way you can still give out opertunity and increase quality with the amount of tags they are giving out.

If a guy wants quality he will put in for the first season. because it will only get harder to hunt the deer as it goes on. It will also be harder to draw because more guys will want to hunt the first season. The guy that wants meat can probably still get his. he can also have a better chance to draw year after year by putting in for the third season. This is exactly how the turkey hunt is run in Utah.

the way the divisions proposal is sucks. We will certainly have a huge slaughter if they have two opening mornings and one of the opening mornings will be at the end of October. Pre rut, and snow conditions will make the deer vulnerable.

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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
SW-- I am not on the Mule Deer Committee, though I would like to be. I am on the Central Region RAC. I agree with some of your thoughts. I believe that there are too many of us hunters on the general units at a time. I do like the idea of splitting up the number of hunters by having two hunts, but having the elk hunt on top of the first general season deer hunt could create a problem with overcrowding again but as I understand it, a hunter would have a deer tag and an elk tag-- not one or the other.So, there would still only be a certain number of deer tags and some of them would be a combo tag for deer and elk. Bottom line with most of this is finding out whether the majority of hunters are willing to give up general season deer hunting every year-- do they truly want to increase the quality of deer hunting on general season units ? Personally, I would give up hunting on the general rifle season every year if I could have a high quality hunt every other year or every 3rd year. What are you willing to give up to increase quantity and quality ? On some sub-units in the Central Region, the ONLY way that can be done is by drastically reducing tags and making it a draw unit or closing it for 3-4 years and then opening it up as an LE unit. I personally would like to see small geographical areas ( about 10-20% of the area)within each management sub-unit be closed and then opened up as an LE unit. That LE "conservation sub-unit" would begin to act as a feeder for the rest of the unit as the population of does and bucks increases. It would create what is known as "population density" phenomenon. As the deer population increases it causes an out migration into adjacent areas. We would lose the privilege of general hunting in a small area but the adjoining areas would see an increase of bucks and deer numbers. However, if removal of predators is not intensified we will not see much gain very quickly. The Nebo sub-unit is only at 50% of management objective for deer numbers. There are a number of areas in the state that are in a similar situation. Drastically reducing hunting or closing those areas is the only way to increase deer numbers. In my opinion, if we want to increase the quantity and quality of deer numbers each of us have to be willing to sacrifice being able to hunt on the general deer season every year. Be aware though, that any change that will affect the revenue that the division needs to operate in a negative way probably won't get any where. They need the appropriate funding to manage the resource. If you want anything to happen you need to be organized and bold. We are the "customers" and the division has an obligation to produce a product we will want to buy.
 
I agree. It is a joke. Splitting the hunt is a good idea but they should not have it 9 days long. I was thinking 4 day hunts. The elk hunting is going to be just as bad as the deer hunt if they continue to over harevest our cow elk. bull to cow ratio's are 1 to 1 in some areas. It's just a matter of time.
 
Just curious. What do you think of the elk population? I have a real problem with the killing of so many cow elk. Elk populations have dropped dramatically in the areas I hunt. Deer populations are pretty much non existant. I vote to close it down for a few years do some heavy winter range restoration and hope that the deer will recover some. I think we need to issue more bull elk tags on all LE units and stop killing cows or the elk herd is eventually going to be nonexistant just like the deer are now.
 
Nebo,

In reality this plan does nothing to address the needs of deer herds. It wasn't meant to. It was meant to manage hunters...nothing more. If this is what the DWR is trying to accomplish for now, why is there no discussion of eliminating the general draw. Regardless of what the proclamation says, the entire state is already run entirely under a limited draw. The problem is we are giving everyone the opportunity to be both an opportunity hunter and a trophy hunter by running a bonus point system and a preference point system. One or the other should be eliminated. Then we, as hunters, will have to choose to either be a trophy hunter or an opportunity hunter. As it stands I can apply for the best tag in the state and still draw a general season tag. I don't have to choose. If we are trying to manage hunters this seems to me to be the most obvious start to better managing access to a limited resource. From there we can move more easily into discussions of micro management, multiple seasons, etc.

Most guys responding here fall into the trophy hunting group. I can identify with that mentality. How many of us would continue putting in for current limited entry units if it meant we would not hunt deer in Utah more than every 5 - 10 years or more?
 
Is Utah the only state with a dedicated hunting program? If so how does 10,000 people hunting from August to October help anything
 
Dahlmer has it right. This is not meant to help our deer herd. This is meant to give hunters a "better experience" afield with less crowding. The problem is simple: Reduce pressure and increase success rates. That is what the data I have seen shows. So if success rates increase and we are putting the same amount of hunters in the field (just over a longer period of time) then it stands to reason that there will be less bucks post season and lower buck to doe ratios. While this might be great for some hunters, I believe it will hurt our deer herds in the long run.
 
Blue here is 2 links one says 20000 per year in Utah the other is a nation wide statistic of 1.5 million.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=608384

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/deer-accident-statistics.html

2 winters ago in one 3 week period my employees hit 5 deer in a short 1/2 mile stretch of highway. I personally had meetings with all of them to make sure they slowed down and watched out for the deer. I use to run 5 trucks. Several million miles, 2 elk, 4 deer and 2 cows later we no longer run trucks. I contract it all. An employee has not hit one in a while but neighbors do.

I know the dwr/sfw etc just spent a lot of money to fence I15 thru the soutern region - IMO it has no doubt saved a ton of deer - I no longer see many dead ones on the freeway. I don't think or know if the fence improved the deer herd but their sure is a lot less dead ones on I15. I don't jump up and down and say the 5 day hunt gave us more bucks suddenly and now they have gone back to the 9 day, now they are going to 2 seasons with 18 days of hunting, now they are going to decimate the stressed out deer herds, their statistics are skewed -yada-yada-yada.

There is no doubt some on here could be a better biologist than what we have - but how could they be. The ones we have now are not allowed to be.

You don't need to turn yer nose up & tell me I have only lived here 11 yrs so I can't possibly know what this mystical utah deer herd needs. I fail to see what makes managing a deer herd so different than anywhere else? Its not rocket science - its political science apparently.

Here we have an attempt to improve the quality of the deer hunting in Utah and most of you are against it. I must be stupid since I have not been here my whole life.I did not go to the rac last night( not able to ) since I'm not a native and would probably not be allowed anyway. but I think I would go to the RAC and say thats a great idea lets do "this" as well. You have them moving but all ya'll wanna do is block them. Have a good day!
 
does sw work for the udwr?
in nearly 40 years of PP management we still have PP herds.

VJ
49ca8f1a4fbfdf37.jpg
 
VJ
I guess pp is another other excuse you use for not killing anything
Iv seen enough women and 12 year old's on the net this year with bucks over 170 and as high as 230 all killed on public land to see you need to get busy.
Keep reminding yourself there are no big bucks in Utah!

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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-09 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]HEY VELVET-------ARE YOU SLEEPING OVER AT YOUNG COUNTRYS??? YOU HAVE THE SAME IP???????
 
again,sw avoids answering any questions.
ok sw,get all your numbers together,do your surveys,get the facts,i'd like a count on all 170"+ bucks harvested in tardville this year & we will see what kind of a percentage you come up with?
and please show us all these trophy bucks you take every year in general regions please!
cough em up sw!

VJ
49ca8f1a4fbfdf37.jpg
 
First of all, lets stop trying to fix the mess we have now and just start over. We are getting our own variation of the Tax Code, it is going to be so complicated.

Micro-manage units. (5 units for the whole state is retarded)

Combine Preference and Bonus Points. (you choose, Are you a quality or opportunity hunter?)

Limit tags. (Obviously)

Kill Coyotes. (some areas (PA) require you to kill a doe to get a buck tag...what if you had to kill a coyote to get an early rifle buck tag?)

Multiple Seasons. (I do think running two seasons consecutively is probably a good idea.)

Institute a "checkerboard" of closed areas. (One of the best ideas yet.)

Grizzly
 
Utah never listens to the hunters. if they did half the stuff they do would not happen. It's all about the moneyto them. whats funny is when they screw up the herds and everyone hunts out of state what money will they get then.
 
Grizzly's got it right. Dahmler did a great post last year I think that was right on with what you said. I have to see if I can find it.
 
I went out to Vernal's coon trial competition and found VJ training his coon hounds. He placed first in the worlds worst hunting dog category and received a $5 coupon to walmart where he purchased a pint of muscle milk. Which he downed in 3 seconds! His photo of his milk mustache will be on the front cover of coon dog mag.

Here is a photo of VJ purchasing his muscle milk!
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His dog training secrets will also be revealed on his blog home page if anyone is interested. www.getnscrewedbythedivisionagain.com





Here is his best hound dog in action

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4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 

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