Don Peay shortens 2010 general deer hunting season

J

Jrhunt

Guest
ksl.com

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Deer hunters in Utah will have less time to fill their tag next year.

The Utah Wildlife Board on Thursday reduced the 2010 general deer season from nine days to five, except for hunters 17 or younger.

The board acted on a proposal by the group Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife.

Five-day seasons have been used in southern Utah in recent years to help herds increase their numbers. State wildlife biologists, though, say there's no indication that shortening the season will reduce the number of animals taken in the hunt.

Board members say they'll revisit the shortened general deer season before the 2011 hunt.

About 70,000 people participate in the general deer season each October.

------

Information from: The Salt Lake Tribune

(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
 
I think they must... Didn't the divisions own biologists vote against the season dates change??? the article said this was a proposal of the SFW.....

buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-09 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]I think it's a good move for now. I personally would like to see a little better quality in this state. Saving those bucks that are killed on day 6, 7, 8, & 9 is going to mean there are a few more older bucks the next year.

Just because they have a job called "wildlife biologist" doesn't mean they have the answers.

This comment makes no sense to me:
"State wildlife biologists, though, say there's no indication that shortening the season will reduce the number of animals taken in the hunt."
Are they saying that no deer are killed on day 6, 7, 8, & 9?

If Don and SFW got it done, then I say good for you guys. New things need to happen in this state to improve buck quality. I'm tired of seeing Utah deer management based on the UDWR budget needs. Should be managed for healthy, quality herds, not managed to buy new trucks and hire more spotted owl biologists.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
It could be a good move,Im not saying it wont't be. What I'm saying is what are some other options, Where is the hunters voice in all this. Show us some data. Not just southern Utah stats. So Utah is a whole different animal than the rest of Utah.You can not base a statewide idea on So Uath~ Lets hear from a wide range of experts and figure out how we can fix the problem. If the data and info was there as majority we may all vote to take a year off or even more drastic changes that a 5 day hunt. whatever it takes to fix our state. The key word being "WE"

Where is the recommendation of the majority of hunters in this article. The people who pay for and fund the majority of the conservation. The FNG knew this was coming down the pipe line. Thats why they decided to not have DH hunters show up as a requirement. Way too many people out there with a voice and all we were doing by showing up to those meetings was making them longer. You all saw how tired, borde and sleepy they are up on that stage.

At the end of the day we all want to fix the problem, I do not think a 5 day hunt will drastically change the deer herds. Most people do not Hunt 5 days anyways. Believe me I hope Im wrong. Boot in my mouth and all. Somebody please let me know when I am. I will trade some crow for deer any given day.
 
Well said founder,its simple math longer hunt more animals killed you dont think these biologists get pressure from inside when making their proposals dont kid yourself. case in point fishlake cow elk they sold hundreds of cow tags based on jeff grandisons a dwr biologists study every tagholder on the mountain killed a cow when the dwr was questioned about it later that year at a rac meeting the dwr said that the elk had simply left the unit yeah they did in the back of trucks jeff was later demoted back to a officer for his mistake so a biologist doesnt always know whats best for a unit or a heard !!!
 
This is just me, but the Northern unit has three major areas for the public to hunt and the most tags.The only way to see a deer make it until he is three or four, is to shoot a three point or better. Then they still get their money and the rest of us see better quality bucks.
 
Utah amazes me. Buck ratios are in the toilet for the last decade or two, so instead of reducing tag numbers, they shorten the season statewide. Now there'll be a bazillion hunters in the field in 5 days instead of spreading them over 9.

Founder, they're not saying deer don't get killed on days 6-9, just that the people who might have killed their deer on those days might still kill their deer in the first 5 days.

Why can't Utah just cut tag numbers like the successful states around them? Look at the success of the LE units. Utah could be the big deer capital of the world if they would just get off the idea of selling a bazillion tags.

If a 5 day season doesn't work, maybe they could make it a 2 day season. If that doesn't work, maybe it could be a 6 hour season. From 6am to noon, one day a year. Then they could still sell a bazillion tags, income would be the same, and maybe an occasional deer would survive past his second birthday.

Ridiculous.
 
For me personally, I would rather hunt 5 days every year than 9 days every third year.

We can argue this over and over. There will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be a solution that will make everyone happy. I think a 5 day hunt is a good starting point, with hopefully more to come.

Years ago the SFW board (I was a member at the time) voted to get rolling a Mule Deer Working Group to look at options on how to improve deer hunting, deer quality, etc. in this state. I had hoped to be a part of that working group. I decided to give up my board spot a couple months after that. I believe the working group was formed, but I do not know anything about it anymore.
I do know that UDWR strongly did NOT want any changes to how deer hunting goes in this state. I think they were terrified that a movement would begin that would cause them to make changes within the UDWR....maybe trimming some of that fat.

Anyway, in my opinion, the 5 day hunt is a good place to start. I hope to see more in the near future.

I don't know if Don and SFW used their power to make this change, but if they did, good for them. I hope someday they have the muscle to influence BLM and Forest Service policy. I'd like to see seasonal road closures, etc. someday.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
There needs to be more change than just how many days in the rifle hunt.
In my opinion we need to let the bucks mature, only
shooting 3 point or better, alot of whitetail hunting ranches only allow harvesting bucks 5 years old and up, and they seem to be producing alot of really nice bucks, I believe it can help with the deer herd numbers here in utah.
I am sure alot of people will support this idea.
We will see more bucks and a better quality of bucks being harvested on public land witch will spark the interest of nonres hunters to hunt in utah!
Sure it will take 5 to 6 years before we start seeing real positive results but I believe it is the only way other than closing the hunts down completely.

A few hunters in utah do not relize how few the deer herd numbers really are. educating and getting more people involved
with this issue is a must.
If things keep going the way they are alot less people will
be buying deer tags in utah, I know how much the state needs to sell tags, sure some hunters will not like the idea and might not buy tags for a few years but letting this go on will be alot worse in years to come.
 
It has been my observation here in Oregon that a significant minority of rifle hunters kill the majority of the mature bucks that are taken each year. Those individuals have top notch equipment, work hard at knowing the area they hunt, are in good shape and hunt hard, and typically hunt the entire season, or until they harvest a good buck. If my observation is accurate, a five day season will have a positive impact on the survival of mature bucks from year to year, which is an important factor in elevating the productivity of a deer herd.

Having never hunted in Utah, I would guess the same thing is true there. If so, my opinion is that this change will be beneficial, maybe not in reducing the overall harvest significantly, but certainly in reducing the harvest on mature bucks.

I find the attitude of Utah Dept of Wildlife interesting. You would think if the choice is between lowering tags, or shortening the season, they would be in favor of shortening the season, since it would not impact revenue. Given that Utah's mule deer population is far below the management objective they have set, it is hard to believe they don't think something needs to change.

A comment on the minimum point regulation. I hunted the Steens Mountain unit for four years under a four point rule. There were certainly problems with illegal kill, but the main thing I noticed over the four year period was that the no. of mature four point bucks decreased substantially. Ended up with lots of big two and three points, which were passing those genes on as the primary rutting bucks after hunting season. Not sure that is a good thing for the long term health of a deer herd.

Scoutdog
 
I am going to play devils advocate here for a minute.

The majority of this board would given the choice take a quality buck every couple years then any buck every year. ? I hope that assessment is correct.

I am not sure if that is how the majority of the deer hunters in the state feel.

20 years ago there were a quarter million deer hunters in the state.

Does this state currently have the habitat (winter, summer and transitional ranges) without houses in it to support the deer herd numbers of the past and what we desire today?

How do you decide where to draw the line between quality and opportunity?

That is a question that I don't have an answer to and one that no matter how you answer is going to disappoint a lot of hunters in my opinion.

Just something to think about.
 
>I am going to play devils
>advocate here for a minute.
>
>
>The majority of this board would
>given the choice take a
>quality buck every couple years
>then any buck every year.
>? I hope that assessment
>is correct.
>
>I am not sure if that
>is how the majority of
>the deer hunters in the
>state feel.
>
>20 years ago there were a
>quarter million deer hunters in
>the state.
>
>Does this state currently have the
>habitat (winter, summer and transitional
>ranges) without houses in it
>to support the deer herd
>numbers of the past and
>what we desire today?
>
>How do you decide where to
>draw the line between quality
>and opportunity?
>
>That is a question that I
>don't have an answer to
>and one that no matter
>how you answer is going
>to disappoint a lot of
>hunters in my opinion.
>
>Just something to think about.


This is why the DWR should make decisions based on facts and not on complaints. They should listen to the complaints and then make decisions about what is best for the deer herd based on facts.

The DWR know they can't make everyone happy. If the DWR and the board would focus on the facts and use them to make decisions the majority of hunters would understand. They may be disappointed with the decision but they would at least understand the decision and believe that the decision was made based on what was best for the deer herd and not for political reasons.
 
Which end of the hunt are we loosing days from? Next year was finally going to be a good hunt with it ending closer to Nov.
 
Are you kidding me well atleast the kids can hunt until the 31st. This makes me mad those extra couple of days close to Nov makes all the difference in the world.

Is Monte Cristo considered part of the Ogden unit?? Do the youth get a longer hunt in the 3 day units?
 
If you check the vote taken at all the RACs last month you will find this-- The Northeastern & Northern RACs did not vote to change to a 5 day hunt. The Southern & Southeastern RACs voted in favor of 5 day hunt. The Central RAC ended up with a tie vote and the Chair voted against the 5 day hunt. All in all it ended up a tie vote statewide. Don P. just might have tipped the scales enough. I was a suprised as anyone when I heard the news.
I am seeing that the general dissatisfaction within the hunting public in regards to general season deer hunting is now becoming more evident. I know that at the Central RAC meeting we always have Wildlife board members present so I know that they heard the same comments I did. The majority of hunters want the DWR to do something to increase herd sizes and buck numbers. The DWR wants all changes to be "revenue neutral" and I can understand why. However the level of dissatisfaction is now so high, that I could honestly see general season deer permits going unsold in the next few years.
There is plenty of room on many of the deer units for more deer. What does it matter if they are bucks or does ? Without doubt, herd growth has to come more through not harvesting does than just killing fewer bucks. But, until a unit gets to its carrying capacity what does it matter if the growth is in more bucks ? As soon as the herd numbers get to a point where too many bucks are competeing with does and fawns for winter forage, then longer hunting seasons or more tags would be appropriate.
I do believe though that it will take more than 1 year to see any significant difference. But, I believe it will work. I think that when the DWR does it next harvest survey that they ask which day of the hunt the animal was harvested. I think the data will show that not as many bucks were harvested in comparison to a 9 day hunt.
 
the only thing to save Utahs....
is to split up the gen units like everyones else state!!
add multi season, jr hunts!
4a2c3c3419e430ad.jpg


rackmaster
 
scoutdog, areas will be affected differently there are still
big bucks out there to spread there genes I can see your point
but I believe the primary objective is to get the deer
population to its objective.
antler ristriction with 5 day hunt,
Even experiment with the central region with antler ristriction
to start with, they got nothing to lose in that region
theres not much left, (on public land)
illegal kill will always be a problem, but I bet you seen alot more bucks on the steen mountians,
my friend from the DWR told me the buck doe ratio has never been this bad in 10 years!
 
Micro manage the units and cut tags! We can all argue 9 vs 5 days and we need to start somewhere 5 days is not going to make a difference in the number of deer saved, we can have a 3 day hunt and one winter kill and we are back to square one, if any of you remember about 4 years ago if I am remebering correctly Utah had a deer slaughter because of a big snow storm the day before the opener hundreds of big bucks were pushed down out of their hiding spots and killed that year was the highest success rate in along time with some BIG bucks killed, nobody back then was complaining then until the hunt was over and then they were wishing the DWR would of shut the hunt down, now we are paying for it and slowly increasing our deer numbers, if we want to keep them managed correctly we WILL HAVE TO MICRO MANAGE so this doesn't happen again!

If Don thinks the 5 day will work and it does god bless him, but when it doesn't please everyone here who supports him PROMISE to kick his arse to the curb and quit defending his stupid ideas!
 
What about the 3.5 months the dedicated hunters and the extended archery hunters hunt deer? The 7 or 8 days the smoke poles hunt them. Now we have the bucks and bull tags and let's not forget the highly anticipated winter doe hunts. Take 4 days from the gun hunters and our problems are solved, I do not think so! Hunting has turned into a spectacle special interest. If the state wants big deer, stick to the basics.

#1) Predator Control
#2) Reduce tag numbers and days in the field.
#3) Limit motor vehicle access.
 
I have a hard time thinking Dedicated Hunters are any problem to our deer numbers, I know a lot of DH people that don't harvest a deer during their 3 year enrollement. I have been in the DH system for 9 years and have taken 2 deer, the smoke pole hunt has been the toughest time for me to find deer don't know exactly why but it could be due to me not being a very good hunter? During the smoke pole hunt I rarely see anyone out on the mountain so I am not sure if it gets as much pressure as the archery, I do agree with you on 1,2,and especially 3. Back to the basics will work its tought to go back to the basices when we have so many groups out there with their brilliant ideas.
 
spotit1st,

I am not attacking any one hunt. Collectively they all put pressure on the herd. I have hunted them all one time or another. Over the years the state has taken one two week any weapon hunt deer hunt (a time when big deer were abundant) any divided it up, stretched it out, manipulated dates, etc. to accommodate SALES of tags. It's been one big successful marketing campaign. A campaign in which has successfully reduced the number of large mule deer in the state. It's an ironic situation for all the special interest groups that got us here to begin with. Reducing the rifle hunt is just another win for all the special groups that are out lobbying. Now days the least represented group is the rifle hunters, because they have not effectively united. If the state truly wanted to increase the big buck population they should proportionally reduce the days in the field equally between all the Utah deer hunts.
 
While I'm not going to post my specific opinion on this topic, as I feel somewhat uninformed in regards to what season length actually does to deer harvest, I will say that I find it quite disheartening that management of wildlife is strictly political. These are natural systems with a human component, but management seems to come from primarily a standpoint of human emotion. What the deer in Utah need is probably not going to be what everyone wants. If a herd is far below management objective, I find it difficult to expect the herd to increase substantially while no changes are made to the current system. Management agencies need to disregard public opinion to a certain extent and do what is best for the wildlife. It should pay huge dividends in the future, both for hunter opportunity, and for managements' pocketbooks.

http://www.huntaddicts.com
 
If all the DWR can muster is a decsion between a 5 day hunt and a 9 day hunt, they have missed the boat on management.Unless they cut tags,they are doing nothing more than reshuffling the deck.

Mike
 
It is obvious that if Utah were to micro-manage and cut tags the hunting would improve. I would be for this option but given what the State of Utah gives the DWR for a budget this would not be possible. Unless things change with their budget and the majority of hunters realize the opportunity that micro-managing would bring it is out of the question. Given the circumstances that Utah has to deal with the five day hunt seems to be one of their best options. It is a fact that more days hunting will result in more deer killed. This is not speculation it is a fact. It is mind boggling to think otherwise.
 
I'm sure 3 days in some spots (Cache), and 5 in others will help. I think they should cut tags in parts of the state, but that would mean, much, much less money for the DWR. I guess cutting the hunt time keeps the $$$$$ rolling in, and just might help out a bit with the herds. In 20 years of deer hunting Northern Utah, this past year was by far the worst, I think the DWR has more that should (must)be done....I just hope money at some point stops ruling all their decisions. It's time for the Division to put the Mule Deer as a top priority in this state!

Just my 2 cents!
 
One important note here is that the state has total control of the DWR budget. I don't believe the DWR has much say if any on what they get for their budget each year. I may be wrong but this is how I understand it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I believe all revenue generated from licenses, tags, and etc go into the overall state budget.
 
Guys I enjoy your comments and I have never written on here before, but let me share some real numbers I have seen in the past. I don't have all of the answers but I ride horses year around and I always watch the game, years ago they had a five day hunt on the central region and during the last winter before they changed it back to a 9 day hunt I saw 48 bucks, and of those 48, 16 were 4 points, and 4 of them were what I consider trophy class bucks (26-28 inch). These were all on the same ridgeline that the deer always winter on. The next year when they went back to a 9 day hunt there were 2, 4 points and the biggest one was a 16 incher. I like the idea to shorten the seasons, I think they should shorten the Archery, and Muzzleloader seasons as well. But then again I think they should do away with the Dedicated Hunter program as well, even if it doesn't kill more deer it definatly hurts the quality. I love to hunt but until we all love seeing big deer as much as we want to get one I don't think it is going to get better. All hunters need to give a little.
 
Ya, in my opinion, shortening the hunts is just a start. I would also like to see the rifle deer hunt in early Oct., so there is no chance of a bad storm, as we had a few years back, causing deer to panic towards winter ranges and become far easier to kill.

The whole point, in my opinion, is for less deer to die each year. The fact is, Utah probably cannot support more deer, the vegitation available can only support so many animals. Between years of drought (less food per acre), competition with elk, and less overall winter range acres, I personally don't think we can grow the pie much more.
So, what we are left with is about what we have, so we need to make the most of it. I like to see bigger bucks, so I think more bucks need to survive each hunting season so they can get older. Lower success rate is what will result in more bucks surviving from one year to the next.

I think before we drastically cut tags and make people sit home every other year (or worse), we give the shorter seasons and date changes an honest try.

Technology and education about our prey has increased our success rate, we need to take it upon ourselves (regardless whether we like it or not), to lower success rates so that we can have healthy, quality herds. 6-10 bucks per hundred does is not healthy, regardless what "they" say. It puts too much pressure on all bucks, especially older age class bucks AND results in fawns coming late and going into the winter smaller than they should....which means higher mortality.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder the problem is we have given it a try. I seen no change whatsoever on the Southeastern region. What I did see was a bunch of hunters that was eager to shoot the first thing that moved because they felt pressured on time. I have also seen hunters that usually hunt the 2 weekends take off all 5 days to make up for the lost weekend. I would like to see a survey on days hunted from the 5 day and 9 day hunts. Bet there pretty close to the same.

I am surprised how many people think it has done wonders for the deer herd. Maybe I just need to find a different spot to hunt. There seems like so many better ways to improve the quality of the hunt. No need to get into that. They have been listed on here several times. Well, thats my take on it. Not that it matters any.:)
 
+1 wymoose.

I belive the deer management in Utah at this point in time is certainly not in the best interest of the deer herd. During the SE RAC, the sportsmen in attendance were pretty adamant about how poor the deer managment in Utah has been. The Big Game Coordinator's response was that the majority of hunters do not want changes to how the deer are managed in Utah.

When do we start putting the deer first?

The DWR's current deer management tools (shortening/lengthing seasons & changing season dates)are mediocre at best. There are definitely more attractive options out there. How much longer are the deer going to be put off? Just keep issuing the same amount of tags, no matter how bad a unit/region becomes. That's a great theory. Of course, unless the numbers get so far under objective that they have to shut the unit down, and then turn it into limited entry. Isn't it time to start being pro-active?

I disagree with founder's comment that Utah cannot support anymore deer. I think you could make that case in places where larger cities have expanded further and further up the mountain over the past 100 years, but there are definitely many areas in the state that could support a larger, healthier deer herd.

(Also, we have winter closures on our forest (Manti-LaSal). We are fortunate enough to have a proactive wildlife department on our forest who look out for our deer and elk herds as best they can.)


BowHuntr
 
only thing i have to say is if cutting the days in the rifle hunt is a good thing than it only makes sense that it would be a benefit to the deer herd if we were to cut a week off the archery season and a few days off the muzzle loader season as well. surely the rifle hunt is the most successful but you cant tell me a lot of deer wouldn't be saved if we were to cut the days of all three. and thats what they're after right? saving deer? i'm a dedicated hunter and i think if they're gonna cut one, cut them all.
 
Micro management is the only way to help. You can't make regs for areas that may be seperated by the 200 miles and have them work. If you have smaller areas you can control days, seasons, point restrictions, etc. By the way genetics are passed on regardless of the age of the buck breeding. A two point that breeds a doe whose daddy was a 180 class 4 point passes those genetics on, even if he did not mature to that age. Maturity and genetics are two different things. If point restrictions don't work, why are the spike elk units so successful in producing mature bulls? Ever notice that the bucks and bulls RAC is directly after the season? How do they have any data to base next years regs on? They will visit the 2011 season after the 2010? That means that in november, before any 2010 data is in, they will make 2011 regs. Heres an idea, make 2010, 2011, 2012 regs now, then there is an actual plan in place, as opposed to just making up regs out of plain air. Finally, fellas mule deer are dying out, period. In the 80's there were 250,000 hunters, two weeks of hunting, and we all know the stories of 4 points everywhere. What changed? The wasatch front urbanized, did Beaver? Manti? Fillmore? Snowville? Randolph? No, no huge loss of winter ground, no more brutal winters than '83, what changed? ELK!! Mule deer do not compete well, and as white tails enter and establish we will see fewer and fewer mulies. By the way, the budgets in the DWR are set up by unit, so that crew cab 2010 f250 your local POST grad pretending to be a wildlife official is driving took money directly out of that unit. If SWF wants to do something useful, push to have the DWR audited(by outsiders) so that some of OUR money goes to improving our AREAS and HUNTS, and not to trucks, trailers, boats, etc.
 
I agree with what people say about smaller units but one thing I think nobody wants to admit is people have way more time to kill that "big buck" than they did back in the glory days. Think about it when Utah had 250,000 hunters the hunt was two weeks and basically that was it for the whole year, and most of them were just weekend hunters, but if a big buck could hunker down for two weeks he was safe the rest of the year. the archery, and muzzle loader hunts were basically non existant. Now with programs like the dedicated hunter program and all the guides, avid hunters, better weapons if a buck makes one mistake between August and the end of October he is dead. Make people choose their weapons and give them less time and things will get better.
 
Just my opinion--- The state is already divided up into 30 deer management units. I agree micro-manageing would work best-- that would include limiting the number of tags on each unit as appropriate. Your hunting fees are used to manage not only big game, but non-game species, fishing, etc. I think that big game hunters are the only sportsmen that truly pay their own way under the Dept of Natural Resources.
One question I have for you-- is it wrong for a Conservation Officer to have a reliable vehicle to perform their work. I for one don't begrudge them one bit. They mostly work alone and sometimes in very remote areas. They deserve good reliable equipment.
The primary way to increase bucks and herd sizes is to limit the number of tags. Are you willing to forego hunting deer every year and spend more on a tag ? If you are not willing to do those two things, I believe we can't expect things to change very much.
I believe the Wildlife Board is now trying to be more pro-active in addressing the opinions of a majority of hunters by implementing the 5 day season. The next round of RAC meetings will no doubt be very interesting in regards to what the DWR perceives the majority of the public "really" wants.
 
so why do archery hunters still get to hunt for 28 days?? why can't we cut it back to 21 days?

I'm all for the 5 day hunt and 3 day, it will help. what I don't understand is why do the archery hunters get to hunt 28 days still? plus extended seasons? I hunted archery too, so I know how tough it can be, but why can't the archery hunt only be 21 days?
 
As I have said before, we need to close the deer hunt for a couple of years to improve the herd to what I would call huntable numbers. The herd is so weak, we need to take some agressive action. Everyone, Rifle, Muzz, bow, and Youth need to all take a step back and regain the Deer herd that we all want. I will be the first in line to give my tag back to see some deer in the future. We as sportsmen and women all need to gel and become one in this cause without togetherness we have no voice especially against as you say, Don Peay and others who say they know whats best for us. If we agree to put our diffrences aside we can acomplish what we all want. A large and healthy Deer herd for the whole state. Then manage it the way it should be.
 
Horseguy Quote

<I agree with what people say about smaller units but one thing I think nobody wants to admit is people have way more time to kill that "big buck" than they did back in the glory days. Think about it when Utah had 250,000 hunters the hunt was two weeks and basically that was it for the whole year, and most of them were just weekend hunters, but if a big buck could hunker down for two weeks he was safe the rest of the year. the archery, and muzzle loader hunts were basically non existant. Now with programs like the dedicated hunter program and all the guides, avid hunters, better weapons if a buck makes one mistake between August and the end of October he is dead. Make people choose their weapons and give them less time and things will get better.>

Horseguy, I agree with everything you said, but it isn't going to happen in this day and age. The three-point and better worked well, but wasn't backed by DWR and that isn't going to happen either. We all agree the deer hunt needs much help. The answer won't be easy and with the deer quantities as poor and the good o' USA. We're deer broke.

It's either micro-managed "small unit draws" or cut the number of days until it hurts. I would rather see each separate hunt five days except the archery hunters, but cut their days also. The big question is how are we going to get the doe numbers up.

The Thousand Lake unit is so poor right now, that it would make a great experimental unit for predator control and the such. The such would be one five or ten hunt for everyone and that it!!! No other hunts on that unit. Just like the old days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-09 AT 03:44PM (MST)[p] Back in the early 1900s are deer population was struggling like they are now, The state shut down hunting deer 1908 to 1913
reopend in 1914 with bucks only until 1934 with a limited doe tags by 1950s deer population was out of control so they say.
this was the glory days and you had more than two weeks to hunt
you could hunt all three weapon seasons, The state recognized how much they could revenue so they issued more tags, 1983
almost a 100,000 bucks were harvested with 229,000 hunters.

Then the big winter kill of the early 90s so they cut back on deer tags to help get the deer herd back to capacity, witch
has never happened. Now there are around 200,000 deer or so
could be off a little, The states goal is to be above 400,000.
for a few years they have cut down the hunt in southern part of utah to 5 days witch has not had much success so why would it work in the whole state? Hunters are more iffiecient
and have better weapons and so forth,
antler ristriction, no antlerless permits, and better preditor
control, The state could meet its objective in less than 7 years with mild winters ofcourse,
 
last 5 day season then a longer season this year I bet they don't change southern gen til we get our 9 days in next season!

4a2c3c3419e430ad.jpg


rackmaster
 
I read somewhere that DWR found that hunters spent as many days afield during the 5 day hunts as they did during the previous 9 day hunts. When hunters only have 5 days, they come and stay all 5 days, When they had 9 day hunts, they came the first weekend and planned to return the second weekend and a lot never made the 2nd trip. I don't know that a 5 day or 9 day season makes much difference. But if it means I get to hunt each year for 5 days vs hunt every other or every 3rd year for 9days. I'll take the shorten season.

I don't shoot small bucks. But too often I've kicked out a 2 point and watched it run across a mountainside only to be shot by another hunter. Too many hunters could care less the size of the deer they harvest. They just want a piece of deer meat. And when the state did have a 3pt or better season, I think too many hunters shot first and checked points later. There are just too many hunters who are worried a deer might get away vs spending 20 minutes glassing to make sure. too many hunters are opportunity hunters vs really hunting. They shoot because something ran past them. Not because they spotted and stalked their quarry.

I don't know what to attribute this to, But I rarely see hunters on the mountain any more. In the old days, the canyon I hunted always had a orange shirt on every ridge line. This year in 5 days of hunting I only say two other hunters in the area I could glass. Could it be that spreading the hunt out over archery, Muzzle Loader, LE and general season has spread the pressure out. Or have people just lost interest in hunting. When I was a kid, all my my neighbors went hunting, Nowdays, ony a few of my neighbors hunt. Maybe they still sell as many tags but they spread them over 3 months. So I think that has worked. At least for me it has improved my hunting experience.

Any way, I don't have a problem with a 5 day hunt. Lets give it a try and see if it helps the herd. We are not going to change the midset of those who shoot anything with horns, so lets limit the number of days they can hunt.
 
A lot of the suggestions on here make sense, even some of the DWR ideas are o.k., but things get changed so often that nobody knows what works. I wish that the "professional" biologists with the Fish and Game could make some decisions regarding all the harvesting without the pressure from special interest groups having all the say. All these quick changes seem to happen outside the normal regulation setting process. I personally would love to see the Fish and Game stop giving all the extra benefits to the youth. Let them earn some love and respect for hunting the right way. Stop making it so much easier for them. If they don't have to work for it they'll never appreciate it later. Why do we have to spark all this new interest in hunting when all the tags seem to be selling out faster and faster each year? I know I developed a huge passion for hunting just tailing along with my dad and watching, helping, and then learning what to do.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-09 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-09 AT 09:28?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-09 AT 09:27?AM (MST)

The problem we have in Northern region is there are two types of hunters that hunt the public land we have available. Those that just want to take any buck and those that want to try and take a trophy buck. The deer numbers are low, and the quality of deer is poor right now. From what I have been told by Utah and Idaho Wildlife Bioligist is it takes two different management plans to increase quanity and quality. The only way to do both in the same area is to REDUCE the overall number of tags.PROBLEM!!! Everybody wants to hunt, but not make any sacrafice. People dont want hunting days or tags reduced, but in Northern Utah both is necessary to achieve both goals of quality and quanity.I'm glad the DWR made the contrversial decision to cut hunting days. Now lets go another step and reduce the number of deer tags available.(FYI) The DWR Board makes the final decision on these matter's not Don Peay. But, if Don Peay and SFW had influence on this decision. Thank's, I'm glad to see someone stand up and show some ball's.If the DWR Board speaks of cutting deer tag numbers, SHOW THEM AGAIN!!!
 
I agree with Worknman... now lets cut the tags. Oh but wait, the lost revenue. Can't they counter balance the two? Raise the tag/license fee a few dollars to make up for the reduction in tags.

As non-res, our group has hunted Southern rifle every other year for a long time now. We won't go back to SE. I think the pumpkins outnumbered the trees.
This year we talked to a few locals in Southern. A couple of them stated they haven't drawn a tag for 3-4 years. Does it really take that long for residents to draw a Southern rifle tag?

As it is, I am appreciative that we get to hunt every other year. However, I'll be the first guy to say I'd much rather hunt every two or three years if it meant better quality.
 
Not only will not less deer be killed, but probably more will be killed. Go do your homework on reduced hunting time in the field across the states and see what the results are.

More deer killed........

The reason is simple. A guy or gal gets X amount of days to hunt each year. Most would hunt opening weekend and pass on alot of deer cause he knew he would be back the next weekend.

When they come back the next weekend the deer have been pushed around and scattered and pressured into deep dark holes and so success rates go way down.

Now all the hunters realize that they only get 5 total days, so all the bucks they would of passed cause they had another weekend will now get blasted cause they know they won't have another chance to hunt them.

The wildlife board made a HUGE mistake on this one. I don't always agree with the DWr but on this issue they were right and the wildlife board went with Don and SFW.

Funny how such a small group can dictate policy for the whole state.

Get ready for more bucks killed in 2010, you can take that to the bank.

Tony

PS. Where was the MDF on this issue?
 
Tony,
The MDF was probably not envolved. That kinda seems to be their MO! WOW you disappear, only to jump on and hammer the SFW! Some things never change. This option will still give opportunity to the same amount of hunters! Since when have you cared about the number of deer harvested, have you not always screamed about hunter opportunity? Lets hear your plan, now that you seem to have shifted some what?
 
>Not only will not less deer
>be killed, but probably more
>will be killed. Go do
>your homework on reduced hunting
>time in the field across
>the states and see what
>the results are.
>
>More deer killed........
>
>The reason is simple. A guy
>or gal gets X amount
>of days to hunt each
>year. Most would hunt opening
>weekend and pass on alot
>of deer cause he knew
>he would be back the
>next weekend.
>
>When they come back the next
>weekend the deer have been
>pushed around and scattered and
>pressured into deep dark holes
>and so success rates go
>way down.
>
>Now all the hunters realize that
>they only get 5 total
>days, so all the bucks
>they would of passed cause
>they had another weekend will
>now get blasted cause they
>know they won't have another
>chance to hunt them.
>
>The wildlife board made a HUGE
>mistake on this one. I
>don't always agree with the
>DWr but on this issue
>they were right and the
>wildlife board went with Don
>and SFW.
>
>Funny how such a small group
>can dictate policy for the
>whole state.
>
>Get ready for more bucks killed
>in 2010, you can take
>that to the bank.
>
>Tony
>
>PS. Where was the MDF on
>this issue?

The Mule Deer Foundation was setting in the same room with SFW, not saying a word. They would rather SFW take the heat over this decision rather than MDF.
 
IMO the 5 day season in SE UT has put bigger bucks on the mountain, I'm seeing better buck taken then before and they are bigger in body too. We still pass up little bucks even with the 5 day season. 6 bucks passed up and didn't punch a tag last year and had good chances.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I enjoy reading your comments and I am sure they all have some merit but I just got done riding the horse every day over the holiday season and I can say without a doubt there are more bucks running around and bigger bucks than there were last year. Just like it was when they had a 5 day season in this area 8 or 10 years ago. If any one wants numbers i will count, but there are more bucks this year than last! I personally would rather have a shorter hunt every year and get to take my little kids hunting than only get to take them once every three years for more time. But that is because I want them to experience hunting with Dad and Grandpa as often as possible and I don't think they care about what we get as much as they want to be part of the hunt.
 
These are my 4 opinions on the deer heard.

1- Roads. There are roads almost on every ridge anymore.
2- Guns. Anymore they are making bigger longer shooting guns.
3- Predators. When you start seeing them more and more like cougars to me there are too many.
4- Polititions. They dont manage the herds.

As far as the shortening the hunt. I think it will do a little but not much. All I see it doing is having the hunters have to shoot the first buck they see instead of passing up on a yearling in hopes of a older bigger buck in which they may have no success.
The biggest factor in my mind they could start is keeping the reveneu out of the polititions hands up on the state capital in letting them do what they want and letting the DWR put it back into the game.

Just my 2-cents
 
5 days of hunting versus 9 days of hunting is less opportunity for hunters. I have always preached opportunity and the SFW and the wildlife board just took some away.

If there are more bucks this year then last it is not because of shorter seasons. It is because of more favorable winters and habitat.

Go read all the studies done on shorter seasons and you will see that for yourselves.Colorado has a great study on shorter seasons. Its worth the read.

As far as disappearing goes I have gone nowhere. You can listen to me every Tuesday night on 1320 kfan from 7-9 pm and hear me every week.

You guys in the south are very clouded as to how you see things. Just like you thought every archer hunts the south (last years regulations and draw proved otherwise)you think the south has more and bigger bucks. The data and polls show differently.

look at last years success rate statewide and then see what it is for the 2010 season. If it changes it will be more bucks killed not less.

I don't make this stuff up I do the research. These studies are not mine but they are real.

Utah hunters got screwed for opportunity to hunt this year by SFW and the Wildlife board. That is the bottom line.

Tony
 
So, Fishon, what is your solution to the deer herds that are struggling in some areas of the state ? Should more opportunity trump any corrective action ? If a 9 day hunt vs. a 5 day hunt doesn't really help, then what would be the problem be with having a 14 day or a 20 day hunt ? There is an abundance of opportunity in this state to hunt. If you just want more opportunity to hunt deer, going out of state may help fill your glass. Would you be in favor of making the general season deer hunt statewide again ? Would you like to have a late season general hunt in November again so that we could have more opportunity ? Could you also explain why we don't have those big swings in deer populations-- i.e. bad winter population plummets-- 2 to 3 years later the population is increasing exponentially. I believe the only way to substantionaly increase herd numbers in some areas is to eliminate predators-- which by the way-- we are the biggest predator in that equation. If you want more opportunity go buy an antlerless deer or elk tag. In the last ten years, opporunity has actually increased for elk hunting. In 2000 there were 762 LE bull permits, in 2009 there were 2899 - a whopping 263% increase. There is as much opportunity or more now than there was 10 years ago, including deer hunting. If you were running the show what would you change ? Would you be satisfied with what is just "biologically" necessary for the herds to remain viable -- 3-5 bucks / 100 does ? It sounds as though you could be satisfied with that,as long as you get to hunt 9 days.
 
Tony

You say we have taken away oportunity but I believe in an old post of yours you proposed and were pushing to shut the deer hunt down totaly. This my limit opportunity but it does not take it all away. Why the Flip Flop? Or is this just an opportunity to through a jab at an organization & a person you dislike.

You can argue this both ways. Common sense would tell you that more days in the field would increase your chances of being successful. I see and understand your point and I know that there are some variables. But there are variables on bothsides yes deer a more scattered but you also run the risk of what happened a few years back Weather. You get an early heavey snow half way through the season and it can be a slaughter. I cannot prove it either way but I lean toward the 5 day.

Liken it to sports. Are you more apt to score with 5 shots at the endzone or 9 shots.
The other thing I dont understand is why the DWR has it in their management plan to cut back hunting days if buck to doe ratio's fall below a certain %. If it does not save deer why is it in there.

One thing is evident guys seem to be more satisfied with what they are seeing and happier with their over all hunting experience in area's that have the 5 day season.

I put more credability in what guys are seeing in the field than what I read in a book.

Is this the answer to saving Utah deer heards? No but it is a start and at least some action is being taken.

It is good to see that your dislike for SFW and Don are still alive and well. I dont think somethings will ever change!

Troy Justensen
 
Troy

Somethings will never change, like SFW and Don taking credit for all positive that goes on in the state and none of the bad.
I have always said SFW has done good but they also have screwed alot of things up.

I dont see the good they do out weighing the bad and that is my opinon as well as many others.... but we all have our critics even you and I my friend.

But to answer some of your questions.....

If you go back and read the post you are refering to about shutting down the hunt it was done very tongue and cheek. I believe it was in response to the perceived success of the Henry Mtns and the Bookcliffs ETC. And my response was, shutting down a hunt will grow big bucks but it wont fix a herd.

The Henries is not a success, it is a travisty... I know I was there this year with a friend that drew and saw 1st hands lots and lots of opportunity being wasted every year by old "average bucks" by Henry Mtn standards that will die of old age that 99% of the world would love a chance to hunt.

Common sense has nothing to do with the proposal that SFW took through the racs. It was a social issue that the south has been preaching for years. Sure an argument can be made about less days in the field means less harvest and it can be made the other way as well.

But the studies and data that is out there shows that it has no effect of saving bucks unless days are limited to 3 or less. Thats because an average hunter hunts 4-4.5 days a season which traditionally is over 2 weekends. Now they are being forced to hunt then all in a row thus increasing the odds a hunter wont pass a buck.

People in the field rarely say how it is, they always say what will benefit them. The Southern region and SE region think that less days is bigger and more bucks and that simply has not been the case. But that is what they want so they and SFW forced it on the rest of the state.

The southern region thought that every archer and DH hunted in the south as well and we know that that study proved they were dead wrong.

Troy I respect you and always have but I cannot lay silent when SFW convinced the wildlife board to take away 4 days of hunting because a small group of sportsman wanted it.


And the economic impact was not addressed by shortening the hunt. How many more hotel nights, food, gas and supplies will now be lost because the 2nd weekend was cut out of the hunt.

Did SFW and the Wildlife board even consider that?

Troy the blame is not just SFW and the Wildlife Board, MDF must take blame as well for sitting by and not even questioning or commenting on it. You know had I still be there then there would of been a fight on your hands representing the average hunter.

My last 2 radio shows were about the deer change and not 1 caller was for it. Now I understand that doesn't represent everyone but it sure is a great indicator. there were probably close to 25 or 30 calls on it.

You want to fix the deer herd then do it and do it right. It is barely better now then it was 15 years ago when we cut 100,000 hunters out of the sport.

There is less overall hunting opportunity top to bottom in Utah now then there was 15 years ago, Yes there are a few bigger bucks but is that worth the 100,000 hunters that are forever gone?

Yes there is more elk,moose,sheep,goat etc. opportunity but there is still less total hunters now then there was.

You wanna fix the deer it is real simple in my mind

1. Truly manage deer on a small unit by unit level (thus truly being able to displace hunters according to herds)
2. Kill more elk so they have less impact on the deer and by doing that it gives more hunting opportunities through elk permits which will help pacify the loss of deer hunting opportunity.
3. Mandatory reporting on deer harvest for every licensed hunter (this will give the DWR and sportsman exact data and not guess work.
4. Take 3-5 areas in the state and do a test,
a. one area has zero elk
b. one area has zero lions
c. one area has zero bears
d. one area has zero lions bears elk
e. one area has zero lions bears, elk and coyotes

do this study for 5 years all the while allowing hunters to hunt and see how the areas respond. Then we will know what impact Lions,Bears.Coyotes and Elk truly have on deer. It will no longer be guess work.

You and I know if we simply shut a hunt down then it will grow bucks, but it wont fix a deer herd (hence the henry mtns)

Now the areas in the study would need to be similar in habitat and elevation and human impact etc, so the natural areas for the study would be

Beaver
Pahvant
Monroe
Boulder
Fishlake
Dutton
Panquitch Lake
Manti

Pick 5 of those and decide which one will have which test on it

so the opportunity that is lost is minimal

There is what I believe will work. Now I know a handful of elk hunters will scream about killing more elk, and lion and bear hunters will scream about killing more lions and bears, but if sfw and the wildlife board and hunters want to fix the deer herds then they need to find out what is keeping them down..... and I have not seen a better way to see what is impacting them then the one I just posted.

HABITAT is only part of it Troy and I am tired of hearing that it is the cure.

I applaud you for your continued belief in what you are doing, we all have to believe in something, but give me the same latitude that you have and allow me to speak my mind and put credit and blame where I see it.

one thing for sure is what SFW and the Wildlife board did this year will do nothing but cut 4 days of hunting our and cause and economic impact for the negative. Because in 2011 it all gets screwed up again and even worse based on what the DWR is proposing.

HAppy New Year

Tony Abbott
 
You want to cut opportunity in Utah then support Micro-Unit management. What does micro-management accomplish IF herds are already meeting their buck to doe objectives? Utah already addresses sub-unit concerns within a region. Micro-management opens the door for special interest lobbying for individual units.

Cutting a few days while allowing people to hunt or micro-manage and cut people's choices, but even worse--open the door to cutting tag numbers on units already meeting their buck to doe objectives. The 5 day hunts worked on the Nebo in 2001-2003. People see the 5 day hunts as being part of the puzzle which helped the Southern Region deer. It isn't the answer to all the problems, but it has been an ingredient to herds which have increased their buck to doe ratios.
 
HOLY SMOKES!! I CAN'T BREATH!! I just had to pick myself off the floor. I never post but I had to comment on Tony's post. WOW! I can't believe that I agree with you 100%. I agree with the group pushing for micro or sub unit in the southern and south eastern region this year. I truly believe each herd has unique issues that have to be address to get deer numbers up, Elk, habitat, freeways, predators, and OVER HUNTING just to name a few. Everyone beats up the southern sportsman on our concerns for the deer herd, but I see it differently, many of us are willing sacrifice our area and give up hunting opportunity to see if we can find a solution to start getting deer numbers up. However I do find it interesting that almost every herd Tony mentioned is in the Southern Region. I agree you will get in to a huge fight over the elk, but it is a factor that needs to be studied. But Tony if you were to get your proposal opportunity would be lost in those areas, which I thought you were against.

I have really enjoyed reading this post over the past couple of weeks. There has been some harsh things written, but it is because everyone is passionate about the desire to hunt deer and there pure love of Mule Deer. I am very optomistic about about the future, because for the first time in over 20 years people finally are realizing that we need to do something different. I have watch my father fight for many years to improve Mule Deer numbers and nothing has ever been accomplished because the DWR has never admitted there is a problem. One thing that I think everyone is in agreement is that Mule Deer are in trouble. The challege is finding the solution the get them going in the right direction. I will support anyone who will fight for them. That includes Don Peay and SFW, MDF, Tony Abbot, whom ever. There have been many times I completly disagree with these guys, but if it is for the benifit of Mule Deer they get my vote and support! I think if everyone would keep cooler heads, I think we all agree more that anyone will admit. If everyone keeps pushing and expressing there concern for the low deer number maybe the DWR will manage differnetly. Mayby at least fly the units and actually count them! Then we will know how many deer we even have.
Scott Christensen
 
The state needs to issue less grazing permits on public land
cattle and sheep do far more damage to the deer than elk do!
killing more elk? bad idea some parts of the uintas few elk
and few deer and thousands of sheep and cattle and little feed
left at the end of fall!



not to mention the deseases that cattle spread to deer and elk
blue tongue, CWD ( witch comes from cattle witch was spread to them from monkeys, you see any squirell monkeys in the rocky mountains? me neither.

micro managing will not work as great as you all think it will not bring the deer population to objective or even close.
just make more areas turn into LE and less oppertunity for hunters.

2. DWR needs to eliminate doe tags even deprivation tags from ranchers, cut buck deer permits in half and raise costs of tags
100% to make up for cutting permits so the state wont lose money,

3. antler restrictions will help alot in getting buck doe ratios to objective, everybody thinks that it will just leave abunch of two points to breed the hot does WRONG! once deer 5 years old
70% die of old age or winter kill 30 % to preditors and hunters. young bucks are like teenagers young dum fulla cum.

When texas started antler restrictions nobody thought it would work but it did ! and they have alot better quallity of bucks and a healthy buck doe ratio.

Preditors are out of control, Don said state is funding 500,00.00 for coyote control but said nothing about lions
They actually issued less lion permits this and last year Why
Don? wasatch front is full of lions just a matter of time until one snatches a liitle kid just like the bear did
I dont think the state has a clue on how many bears or lions are actually out there.
 
I've been around cattle for damn near 50yrs and thats the first time I've heard anyone say cattle spread CWD or blue tongue to deer or elk, so I think your full of crap!!!! Back in the glory days(50's & 60's) there were FAR more sheep and cattle on public land, especially sheep, and there were FAR more deer!!!!!
 
I need to start an organization called:

"SPORTSMEN AGAINST SPROTSMAN FOR FISH AND WILDLIFE"

If you give your money to these GOOOOOOONS then you deserve to hunt Utah for 5 days.


After going to Wyoming, Nevada, and Colorado, I can not even STOMACH hunting here!

In those states I saw A TON OF BUCKS and often NO HUNTERS!!!

CUT THE TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FREAKINNNNNNNNNNNNN SIMPLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE



"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
>I need to start an organization
>called:
>
>"SPORTSMEN AGAINST SPROTSMAN FOR FISH AND
>WILDLIFE"
>
>If you give your money to
>these GOOOOOOONS then you deserve
>to hunt Utah for 5
>days.
>
>
>After going to Wyoming, Nevada, and
>Colorado, I can not even
>STOMACH hunting here!
>
>In those states I saw A
>TON OF BUCKS and often
>NO HUNTERS!!!
>
>CUT THE TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FREAKINNNNNNNNNNNNN SIMPLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>
>
>
>"One nation, under God, indivisible, with
>liberty and justice for all."
>
Jayson, How would you feel about SFW if you found out they want the DWR Board to cut tags in 2011.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10 AT 09:24AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10 AT 09:23?AM (MST)

If a particular unit does not issue doe tags and the deer numbers are not increasing, but actually seem to be decreasing-- what is the real problem?
Increasing buck / doe ratios is a good thing, but it does not give any indication of whether or not a herd is doing well in a particular unit.
Until we get a handle on why not killing does is not translating into growing herd numbers, we can argue all we want about buck/doe ratios etc. Until we substantionally reduce the causes of doe mortality we can never expect the herds to increase. The Nebo has no doe tags, yet the herd continues to decline. Cougars, bear and coyote are the predators killing does.When they kill a doe they most often are killing 3 deer in actuality. Deer killed by vehicles also often kill 3 deer also--the doe a her 2 unborn fawns.
Reduce the number of does killed in these ways and you will see an increase in herd numbers very quickly.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]THANK YOU -- Nebo1200. Finally, someone who gets IT! The problem with Utah's herds is not the buck segment (on most units). There is another problem(s). I know that when the sheep were planted on Timp the UDWR killed 40+ cougars off the area and the area's deer herd increased over the following 3 years.

Micro-management is an oasis that is just a mirage. It does nothing to increase buck numbers or buck to doe ratios. Buck numbers only increase when hunter days are cut, which you can accomplish within the current region structure. BUT, increasing buck numbers may do NOTHING to help a deer herd. In fact, carrying too many bucks can HURT the overall population.

HOW has micro-management GROWN the deer herd on the San Juan, Elk Ridge in Utah? Protect maybe, but grow?
 
In the 30-60's logging, killing of predators, sheep and cattle are what helped deer numbers max out at all time highs (and lots of winter range). Now that the cattle industry is hurting, lack of winter range on the Wasatch front and lots of hunger critters running around, I'm sure that's playing a major roll now-a-days. Those damn Yellowstone killers are now in Utah, that's going to take the deer down two more notches (there's a few running around on the Cache). The DWR is not addressing any issues with the deer herds as far as I see, we need to get use to the fact that hunting deer in Utah is going to suck for a LONG TIME!!!
Just my 2 cent...
Aking
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10 AT 06:43PM (MST)[p]>I've been around cattle for damn
>near 50yrs and thats the
>first time I've heard anyone
>say cattle spread CWD or
>blue tongue to deer or
>elk, so I think your
>full of crap!!!! Back in
>the glory days(50's & 60's)
>there were FAR more sheep
>and cattle on public land,
>especially sheep, and there were
>FAR more deer!!!!!

during the 50s and 60s there were less elk and alot more land to graze on lower elevation witch alot is developed and more land is private. so there is less for cattle.u have been around cattle and in sheep your whole life uh! time to throw out the velcro shaps LOL!!! research blutongue disease and its origin!
 
Sorry guys fewer days does not equate to more bucks unless it is cut to 3 days or less.Infact it is more likely that more bucks will be killed. And micro managment displaces hunters to areas where there are more bucks from places that there are not extra bucks so it does help buck numbers.( but does nothing for the health of the herd)

The key is FIXING the deer herd is done by putting more fawns on the ground, and getting those fawns to survive the first year.

Closing a unit will only help buck numbers but not the overall health of the herd.

YES, I want opportunity BUT I will sacrifice opportunity for the health of the HERD not just to grow bigger bucks.

We have NO IDEA what effect elk have on deer from a study standpoint but I know what effect they have based on hunting the SAME place for the last 15 years. Mount Timpanogas used to have NO elk and lots of deer 10-15 years ago, now you have few deer and tons of elk. Explain what changed?

Elk displace deer and out compete them for the best forage. I KNOW THAT TO BE A FACT.

ANd the reason I put all Southern and Southeastern units in my proposal is because those will be least affected by human population and by harsh winters, which will allow us to see exactly what effect ELK,LIONS,BEARS and Coyotes have on a herd.

If the study was done up North on units then harsh winters and droughts would play a bigger role in the equation and not let us accuratly see the impact of the other variables.

I do not have all the answers to fix the deer herds BUT I KNOW THAT CUTTING DAYS WILL ONLY LESSEN OPPORTUNITY, HURT THE ECONOMY AND PISS OFF THE VAST MAJORITY OF HUNTERS.

Thanks for all you thoughts and have a great 2010

Tony Abbott
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10
>AT 06:43?PM (MST)
>
>>I've been around cattle for damn
>>near 50yrs and thats the
>>first time I've heard anyone
>>say cattle spread CWD or
>>blue tongue to deer or
>>elk, so I think your
>>full of crap!!!! Back in
>>the glory days(50's & 60's)
>>there were FAR more sheep
>>and cattle on public land,
>>especially sheep, and there were
>>FAR more deer!!!!!
>
> during the 50s and 60s
>there were less elk and
>alot more land to graze
>on lower elevation witch alot
>is developed and more land
>is private. so there is
>less for cattle.u have been
>around cattle and in sheep
>your whole life uh! time
>to throw out the velcro
>shaps LOL!!! research blutongue disease
>and its origin!
By your own admission a major cause of critical winter range loss is development. And I will freely admit over grazing can be a problem for wildlife, and if a rancher doesn't have a good grazing program set up for his livestock it can become a major problem for his operation. I did my research, No major problems or outbreaks of blue tongue, spread by gnats on drought years, not very common, as for CWD, not found in cattle or humans, look it up! As for the velcro crack, that could get you a blue tongue!!!!!LOL
 
COLORADO

WYOMING

NEVADA


They all have decreased and micromanaged.


The hunting is better there.

If you don't believe me then stay here and hunt. Please stop putting in for the Uncompaghre, Region G, and the Rubys.



"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Someone asked what I would think if SFW was going to decrease tags in 2011?

Great.

But first dont ask for half of the decreased tags for your freakin auctions. And, give back the 200 tags you got for auction last year. I would like to draw my elk tag before I have a heart attack at age 70. That would be more likely if SFW was not given HORDS of tags to auction every year. Give the public tags for public animals back to the public.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
I believe that "micro-management" if done right will work. The number of permits is tied to the number of available bucks on a particular unit. Not only do we have to find ways to protect does from predators so that we can get better fawn production, we have to manage in a way that allows larger bucks to compete for breeding. Its simply a case of allowing the strongest and most impressive bucks to be chosen by the does, this will in turn help to increase fawn survival each spring because they will in theory have superior genetics that will give them the greatest chance in predator avoidance. Thats the conclusion that Valerius Geist comes to in his study. We must have competetion among a good population of older class bucks to get the best genes passed on to fawns.
I believe we have to be willing to give up some of our "opportunity" in order to help the deer herds.
 
>Sorry guys fewer days does not
>equate to more bucks unless
>it is cut to 3
>days or less.Infact it is
>more likely that more bucks
>will be killed. And micro
>managment displaces hunters to areas
>where there are more bucks
>from places that there are
>not extra bucks so it
>does help buck numbers.( but
>does nothing for the health
>of the herd)
>
>The key is FIXING the deer
>herd is done by putting
>more fawns on the ground,
>and getting those fawns to
>survive the first year.
>
>Closing a unit will only help
>buck numbers but not the
>overall health of the herd.
>
>
>YES, I want opportunity BUT I
>will sacrifice opportunity for the
>health of the HERD not
>just to grow bigger bucks.
>
>
>We have NO IDEA what effect
>elk have on deer from
>a study standpoint but I
>know what effect they have
>based on hunting the SAME
>place for the last 15
>years. Mount Timpanogas used to
>have NO elk and lots
>of deer 10-15 years ago,
>now you have few deer
>and tons of elk. Explain
>what changed?
>
>Elk displace deer and out compete
>them for the best forage.
>I KNOW THAT TO BE
>A FACT.
>
>ANd the reason I put all
>Southern and Southeastern units in
>my proposal is because those
>will be least affected by
>human population and by harsh
>winters, which will allow us
>to see exactly what effect
>ELK,LIONS,BEARS and Coyotes have on
>a herd.
>
>If the study was done up
>North on units then harsh
>winters and droughts would
>play a bigger role in
>the equation and not let
>us accuratly see the impact
>of the other variables.
>
>I do not have all the
>answers to fix the deer
>herds BUT I KNOW THAT
>CUTTING DAYS WILL ONLY LESSEN
>OPPORTUNITY, HURT THE ECONOMY AND
>PISS OFF THE VAST MAJORITY
>OF HUNTERS.
>
>Thanks for all you thoughts and
>have a great 2010
>
>Tony Abbott
Tony, don't Colorado have there deer hunts broken down into 5 day season's??? Three 5 day Rifle hunts I believe. And don't they have great Bucks they are shooting in November rifle hunt's? I dont know anything about Micro-management but isn't that what I see when I look at a Idaho, Montana, Colorado, and Nevada deer proclamation. Many small units under individual management plans. Hell I dont know? Help me understand, I'm open for information on this subject.

Nathan Adams
 
Im gonna have to agree with most everbody and say this is a joke. I think its better than nothing, but I don't think its going to help much. They can't run the whole state like southern Utah. There are only so many places a guy can go up north, and they will be packed as ever. Just for fewer days, and alot of deer in these area's will still be taken. As other people have said, why not make sub units like every where else does. Im sure that the DWR probably agree's with most of us, just does'nt really care what we think. Thats a good point someone said about the rack meeting too. There were to many hunters there to back our side. So they quit making us go. I think it great to give kids a better shot, and I think Its a step in the right derection. But not as good as it should be.
 
8 out of 10 guys I talk to won't be going hunting this year. They don't see the point in putting up the money and effort. Sad...

What they are doing won't work. Micromanaging won't work.

Work on winter range! That's the only way. Selling edible tags will do a better job than what is proposed.

Take away opportunity, people will stop trying/going alltogether. Then you lose support, money.

I asked in another post about miceomanagement, what units are going to be the hamburger units? Nobody wants their unit to be one. Eventually we will get to ygr state of Utah as a statewide trophy unit that you get to hunt every 10 to 15 years unless you have the money to buy a tag.





4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
I love it when someone leaves an organization and all they can do is ##### and moan about its current position on a subject oh and about all the mistakes they have made tony you were on board for many of those years so give yourself a big hand. Since when does the mdf spend any money in so utah!!!!



kody
 
Kody

In case you don't know I have been gone from MDF for almost 1 1/2 years, but when I ran it we put lots of money on the ground in Utah. You would have to ask them now how much they put.

And as far as SFW goes, I rarely agreed with the direction they started heading towards my last couple of years, that is part of the reason I left. You know I think they have done a lot of good over the years, but like I have said before - the bad now greatly outweighs the good and they took 4 days of hunting away from 65,000 hunters, and a lot of revenue for Resturants, Motels, Gas stations and a lot else. That is a fact.

I am waiting for them to actually do something for the deer and the masses instead of just for themselves and their pockets.

Why can't I have an opinion on things like everyone else does?

Hope you have a great New Year and a fantastic 5 day hunt

Tony
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-10 AT 07:20AM (MST)[p]>Kody
>
>In case you don't know I
>have been gone from MDF
>for almost 1 1/2 years,
>but when I ran it
>we put lots of money
>on the ground in Utah.
>You would have to ask
>them now how much they
>put.
>
>And as far as SFW goes,
>I rarely agreed with the
>direction they started heading towards
>my last couple of years,
>that is part of the
>reason I left. You know
>I think they have done
>a lot of good over
>the years, but like I
>have said before - the
>bad now greatly outweighs the
>good and they took 4
>days of hunting away from
>65,000 hunters, and a lot
>of revenue for Resturants, Motels,
>Gas stations and a lot
>else. That is a fact.
>
>
>I am waiting for them to
>actually do something for the
>deer and the masses instead
>of just for themselves and
>their pockets.
>
>Why can't I have an opinion
>on things like everyone else
>does?
>
>Hope you have a great New
>Year and a fantastic 5
>day hunt
>
>Tony
Tony, I am a member of SFW. You speak of "the bad" SFW has done. Could you be much more specific. I want to make sure I am supporting the correct consevation group for Utah Wildlife.You speak of lost revenue for business owners, that is true. But hasn't the Utah DWR been selling deer tags for a product, in the field they really dont have. Alot of people think the DWR wont cut tags without raiseing license fees. If they cut tags and dont raise tag fee's they must lay people off from work. "Lost revenue", other companies are laying off why not the DWR. If we dont have the number of deer we should have, why do we need so many biologist and F&G cops. Please update your e-mail on your profile. Thanks, Nate Adams
 
I can't wait to hunt in Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, etc......I will only hunt here because I like going with family......my real hunts happen outside of this state where they MICROMANAGE the deer herds....and have better quality as a result.......Our state is surrounded by succussful management of deer.....they all micromanage.......I wonder if micromanaging works...hmmmmmmmm?


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
I'm in with tony. How did we lose 100,000 hunters in the 90's and yet the bucks and deer in general are not any better and in fact are worse. Again, the deer/ elk RAC is in novemeber, a lot of guys are still hunting, animals are still being taken and the DWR is setting regs for the next year. It took a year for me to get my tooth data and I am supposed to believe that they have the deer data in 2 weeks? The DWR runs the deer unit for what we think, revenue. Yeah NEBO I said it. Go to a RAC meeting and look at the trucks WE have bought. All crew cabs(which cost more and have no relation to reliability), most are 3/4 ton. Each takes money out of the unit it comes from. SWF, while preaching about cutting days of tag numbers have no problem putting out an additional 200 tags each Feb. After 13 years of waiting I finally draw a LE elk tag, and run into 3 guys who got theres at the SWF draw. That was more dead animals, but according to SWF its worth it for the overall good. What good? Mule deer are genetically inferior, we do have to face that, as whitetails and elk flurish, muleys are sufferring, nation wide, now I know Al Gore thinks its global warming, but we pretty much have what we have and cutting 4 days out of a hunt doesn't change that. I know all about the trophies on the henery's etc., but when we had 2 full weeks and 250,000 hunters every unit produced(look at the old time photos in here, and your dads photobook for proof). It would be nice to have a 5 year plan however, instead of the DWR changing directions every Nov., based on nothing, at least that way we would give ideas time to work, or fail, instead of what we do now.
 
Hoss- The irony is the Board passed a 5 year Mule Deer Plan and put into motion just 6 months ago. The plan was written by the Mule Deer Committee and not one member expressed a problem with the "general season, sub-unit management within regions". Yet a couple guys have lobbied the Wildlife Board for Micro-Management and the Board went along with their request (just a few months after the Board voted to implement the 5 year management plan).

That is the problem with Micro-management within Utah, lobbying. Once these 30-40 units are created, we will see special interest lobbying for each unit and you will see a decrease in permits.

One last time:

If a unit is currently meeting its buck to doe objectives, HOW will micro-management help that unit?

And Wyoming DOES NOT micro-manage. They have unlimited, state resident permits, regional non-resident and limited entry.
 
You don't have to micromanage when your deer outnumber people. The other two states do micromanage and are much more successful than Utah at raising nice bucks.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Nevada and Colorado do not have "nicer" bucks because they micro-manage. They have nicer bucks because they have 1/3 the pressure of hunting on their herds. Issue 5,000 permits on the Central Region in Utah and you will see higher quality too. But you will only be able to draw it every 3-6 years.
 
Im ok hunting deer every 3 to 6 years.In the last 4 years I've not harvested a deer 2 years for not drawing 2 years not seeing any decent bucks seen alot of 2 points and spikes.I put in for the central unit.There is no way nebo, eurkea,goshen canyon ,is at buck to does ratios.So lets start some mirco mangement areas we have nothing to lose on these areas.try it for 5 years and lets see what happens.If you hunt any of these areas you know what I mean!
 
Micromanagement allows us to spread out the hunters better. That is one reason you don't see orange on every ridge in Nevada and Colorado.

I agree that micromanagement must be combined with a reduction in tags. Reduce the tags until the deer make a comeback. Once the deer make the comback we can increase the tags. If we reduce the deer tags and the bucks don't come back then we can look into other causes of low herd numbers like predators or winter range. Scientists eliminate one variable at a time until they find what they are looking for. So, lets reduce the tags and see if it works.


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
I think reduceing tags will definitely help, but it wont be a popular decision. Some say micro-management wont work. But I find it hard to believe it wouldnt, because every Mtn. range faces different problems. Example, to many hunters, to many Elk, predators, home building, lost winter range, competing with other animals for food like Elk, sheep, & cattle. A entire region cant be faceing the exact same problems. Just my thoughts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-10 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]Hossblur---The DWR buys all their trucks through the State purchasing dept., so they do get them for alot less than you or I could get them. They pile up the mileage pretty fast and get out of warranty and the state requires that they retire them at a certain point. What is your solution to increasing mule deer numbers ? sounds like you think we should throw in the towel and let elk and whitetails take over-- does that mean that we should have unlimited hunting which only the whitetails can survive ? Whitetails don't like and won't inhabit high mountain venues-- mule deer do. Maybe the Wildlife board should start issueing whitetail only tags and a seperate season for folks like you. Just think, you wouldn't have to deal with all those other hunters who don't have as much right to be on the mountain as you do. Its funny how some guys think that its the other hunters fault that they don't have a good hunt.Do you think you have any more right to have a good quality hunt more than anyone else ? We would all love to hunt where no else is around. Thats why there are a few opportunities to draw out for a tag that provides a hunt with fewer hunters around.
I think that there are some units that the DWR has over issued tags-- especially for elk-- which in turn has hurt the unit and overcrowded it with hunters. Hopefully that will be fixed. The Elk committe is working hard right now to get some of that into the Elk plan.
You and me have no more right to be on the mountain hunting than the next guy. Just be thankful we have the opportunity to hunt and do what you can to make it better not just for you but for all of us.
 
going to agree with fishon on this one,every Utard will be groundpounding every fawn with nubs & milk on the lips buck in sight,just when you think you've seen the game & fish do the stupidest sshit possible they pull another idiotic stunt off,WAFJ!

soon the love in his heart will be the rage in his fist

Jesus is coming and boy is he pissed

4b4654d74c2d46ca.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-10
>AT 09:11?AM (MST)
>
>Hossblur---The DWR buys all their trucks
>through the State purchasing dept.,
>so they do get them
>for alot less than you
>or I could get them.
> They pile up the
>mileage pretty fast and get
>out of warranty and
>the state requires that they
>retire them at a certain
>point. What is your solution
>to increasing mule deer numbers
>? sounds like you think
>we should throw in the
>towel and let elk and
>whitetails take over-- does that
>mean that we should have
>unlimited hunting which only the
>whitetails can survive ? Whitetails
>don't like and won't inhabit
>high mountain venues-- mule deer
>do. Maybe the Wildlife board
>should start issueing whitetail only
>tags and a seperate season
>for folks like you. Just
>think, you wouldn't have to
>deal with all those other
>hunters who don't have as
>much right to be on
>the mountain as you do.
>Its funny how some guys
>think that its the other
>hunters fault that they don't
>have a good hunt.Do you
>think you have any more
>right to have a good
>quality hunt more than anyone
>else ? We would all
>love to hunt where no
>else is around. Thats why
>there are a few opportunities
>to draw out for a
>tag that provides a hunt
>with fewer hunters around.
>I think that there are some
>units that the DWR has
>over issued tags-- especially for
>elk-- which in turn has
>hurt the unit and overcrowded
>it with hunters. Hopefully that
>will be fixed. The Elk
>committe is working hard right
>now to get some of
>that into the Elk plan.
>
>You and me have no more
>right to be on the
>mountain hunting than the next
>guy. Just be thankful we
>have the opportunity to hunt
>and do what you can
>to make it better not
>just for you but for
>all of us.

Please tell me your not going to try and tell me that 3/4 ton extended and crew cabs don't cost more than 1/2 ton regular cabs regardless of who buys them. I am not a whitetail fan anymore than anyone else, but since I am guessing your a DWR employee I am going to hope you have some biology class work in your past. Evolution? Survival of the fittest? Elk and deer basically live in the same areas, winter and summer, why do elk expand why mulies decline? Elk adapt to their surroundings as do whitetails, mulies are much more susceptible to environmental conditions such as winter, specific food requirements, predators, etc., therefore they are in decline. Short of eliminating elk there isn't a stop for this. Look at Utah, not just the wasatch front, but the whole state. I hunt Manti, manti city hasn't had any development in the foothills, its no more overgrazed than 30 years ago. There are a hell of a lot more elk on the winter range than there were, pushing the deer to the edges of range, concentrating them making them much more susceptable to disease and cougars. None of this will change by me not hunting a deer next year. No one has answered Tonys question, how did we have 250,000 hunters hunting for two weeks, then cut out 100,000 of them and the deer herd got worse? The wasatch front you can argue development, but Manti? Snowville? Beaver? Why hasn't hunting and development hurt the ever expanding elk herds? Because they are variables that are meaningless in the equation, the problem is the species itself and losing 4 days doesn't make mulies suddenly competitive with elk.
 
What is the problem with geting the heards to their set buck to do ratios it makes sense supply and demand. The supply is suppose to be in the the north east region 15 bucks per 100 does ok. If say three corners is at 8 vernal southslope is at 6 yellowstone is at 18 these #'s are mad up and ninemile anthro is at 12. there are 13000 tags issued. Say that 3000 go to three corners and 5000 got to vernal and 2000 go to anthro and 3000 go to stawberry. they shold devide tags and cut them until the #'s in each unit meet their objective. if a unit gets above it's ratio issue more tags if it below cut tags. it only makes sense. I think they do need to take an all of the above approach winter range road fencing and predator control. along with managing the unit to maintain the set buck to doe ratio.
good luck and good hunting
 
I am not a DWR employee. Would you rather pull a horse trailer with a 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton.
Unless you are age 50+ you don't remember when there were also 300,000 deer in the state. The decline in deer numbers really started in the late 70's. Two weeks to hunt + late season november hunt. Do you remember when poison bait was banned ? Try remembering the 70's. Look at the decline in deer populations and it coincides pretty much with the ban of poison bait for predators. Elk are much less susceptible to predation except by wolves-- and they are not far from beginning to impact elk numbers in this state.
For everyones information-- the DWR was against the 5 day hunt-- The Wildlife Board made that decision because of not only what they heard at the Board meeting, but also what they heard at every single RAC meeting. We will be the predator that will have to decrease our share of the deer herds. Unless, we can find a way to decrease doe mortality to predators, we won't see any real increasse in deer herd numbers. Our opportunity is going away because we are not dealing with the real problem.
 
The DWR sales all of the lion tags it puts out right? So, how can we increase the amount of lions taken if they don't issue more tags?

Nevada has the same predator problem right? Then why is the hunting so much better in Nevada?

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Aspen-- The DWR does sell all the limited entry cougar tags plus a ton more qouta tags. Most of the LE tags are filled but some of the units that are on quota harvest never reach the quota. I think there needs to be a financial incentive added to harvest cougars on some units. Probably would have to come from a sportsman group like SFW MDF etc. Give cougar hunters an extra $250 for a legally harvested cougar no matter what the size and I believe the LE and the quota tags would get punched every year.
Nevada severely limits the number of hunters, so the harvest and pressure is much less than in Utah.
Are you willing to have higher fees and only hunt every 3-5 years ?
 
I think that if you cut the 98000 tags in half in utah you would be able to hunt every 3 years. It would not take 6 years to draw a tag.

that would save 20000 bucks per year. after a few years the hunting would be good again.

cut the tags in half and charge twice as much.


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
You know if the Utah State Fish and Game were doing their jobs right then we would have not need for the special groups. The fact is that they are really screwing things up.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

IMG_5090.jpeg
DD4EF6AD-5E30-4034-BCAC-0F8C06192628.jpeg
C7420E87-8546-48F5-896B-81410801F37C.jpeg
20231109_065603.jpg
E835D4FD-CE07-46DC-A50B-0A33A4919F9B.jpeg
F39053A6-A54A-4BB1-A4DD-3B1E2BD4955A.jpeg
NV Bull As it Lay.jpg
60B9822B-DD75-46BD-8DFE-0452D5687C00.jpeg
E042CC13-E85E-4D28-AC32-0C63AB74D4D2.jpeg
IMG_0609.JPG
Big Velvet Trophy Muley
20210822_153447.jpg
Back
Top Bottom