"Big Changes in Store for Utah Deer Hunting"

[nebo12000]

I posted this on the Utah Huntin Talk section earlier

The 5 day hunt season along with the 3 day hunt season on units under 15 bucks/100 does is just the beginning. The RACs and especially the Wildlife Board will be implementing some major changes designed to start the process of increasing deer herd numbers where appropriate.
This will include things like continued habitat enhancement in partnership with SFW, RMEF, MDF, federal and state agencies.
There will be a concerted effort to move toward forming smaller geographical management units that will be managed individually both for quality and quantity.

Limiting the number of tags and length of seasons within each of those smaller management units will be implemented as deemed appropriate.

Predator management will get more attention - including wolves, which seemed posed to begin making a huge impact on big game numbers especially in the NE part of the state.

There will be a big push to establish a funding mechanism to provide funds for big game fencing along all major highways and the appropriate structures needed so that big game can migrate and access critical winter ranges.



This will require sacrifice on the part of all hunters and sportsmen but I believe it is necessary.

 

[bubbas]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 11:37AM (MST)[p]Awesome. I have to say whether you agree with the possible changes or not, UDWR seems to be more proactive and quicker to respond to Sportsman's desires than other states. Also they seem to be willing to try different things or think outside of the box. Just my superficial observation. I wish AZGFD would take a lesson.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Its not UDWR that are proactive bubbas. Its the sportsmen groups. SFW/SFH and Muledeer foundation.
--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"

 

[deadibob]

If it wasn't for sportsmen and sportsmen groups holding the DWR's feet to the fire, we'd still have unlimited over the counter buck tag sales and buck/doe ratios of 2/100.

 

[tabbyhntr]

That's a good start and about time

 

[PleaseDear]

I like the idea of smaller deer units for management and permit numbers issued.

Now if we can get them to go to only a single point system for all deer tags.

Combine what Gen deer preference points folks have and the LE deer Bonus points into a single point system..... I prefer the Bonus point system with the 50% to max points and the other 50% to the regular any amount of points draw like we have now on LE deer.

All 5 choices count and if ya draw any of your 5 choices----you use your points....

No points for any leftover tags....

Robb

 

[4000fps]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 09:12PM (MST)[p]It is pathetic that sportsmen need written rules to force them to change their behavior. Every hunter could make a difference if they would quit shooting 2 points, and does...

 

[dgwoody]

I like the idea of increasing the deer herds, obviously, but I question some of the tactics. The deer fence thing? Terrible. I drive Sardine canyon every day. Last year I counted at least four new dead deer a week. They get through, then are trapped, and can't get back out and eventually get nailed by a car. Then, to make it better, they added a concrete barrier all the way down the canyon, so when they do cross "the obsticle course" they are more likely to get nailed. I think the key is to spend the time and money getting people to slow down and pay attention to the road and whats on it. This year they have put out neon signs warning "wildlife on roadway" and it seems to be helping, there have still been casualty's but not near as many as in years past.

Also, not to beat a dead horse or anything, but what is the point of a draw when you don't reduce the number of tags? I know they have to make their money somehow, but I would rather pay a little more for a tag, and only get two in three years, and have the opportunity to hunt decent deer, with less people. Just my oppinion.

Another thing, I know it has been suggested a thousand times, but why not implement an antler restriction for non-youth hunters. Still let the kids shoot any buck, but keep the older guys shooting the four point or better type deer. I heard an old boy say once that they tried it on the wellsvilles years back and people would shoot the little bucks, walk up on them and leave them to rot, so they quit doing it. If this is the case, why not just make it a $30 fine or something resonable, so its not so scary for the guys who can't seem to know their target before they pull the trigger. I could go all night, but there's a few things I've been stewing on for a while.

 

[Muley_73]

How about make it a 1000.00 fine so those clowns make sure they take the time to count points.

 

[Califelkslayer]

Add a 0.

 

[deerbedead]

Sounds good. I like the "fence" idea. It may not work so well in certain areas, but it dang sure will work in others. I think the deer will figure out how to use the corridors to get across the highways, then they'll be in business from there on out.

 

[PleaseDear]

The current fencing projects like up Parleys are paid for from the Stimulus money that is being given to the states.

Spending some of it on wildlife is great!

Robb

 

[swbuckmaster]

there are some good ideas and some bad ones.

I like the fences, and habitat improvements!

I don't like the, we need to cut tags so we can all shoot a 4 point ideas! Call me an opportunistic piss cutter killer but hey i like to hunt every year!

some day in Utah we will have great habitat, huge bucks that every old guy, young, handicap can hunt. The only problem is you will have to be either rich enough to purchase the auction tag or young enough to draw the tag.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[30inchbuck]

Not from UT but point restrictions dont work. NM tried it - very poor results - thus eliminated the rule.

if you target the 4 point bucks - Then the guys out there for the meat will be passing up on the smaller deer resulting in more mature bucks getting killed. So your breaders now become the small deer. Resulting in less successful impregnation of does or late impregnation resulting in fawns being born too late and in a mixed mash instead of dropping all within a week. Deer biologist discovered this in point resrictive areas.

Made since to me and just putting it out there so you can look at point restrictions in a different light.

 

[fullcurl74]

If you implement 4 point only restrictions, you will definitely see less 4 points on the mountain. Guaranteed.

 

[2lumpy]

nebo12000,

I hope everyone one of your suggestions is implemented as quickly as possible. Mule deer herds in many areas of the state are in dyer need of a change in herd management.

Many of these suggestions have been made for over 20 years and game managers have known it for the entire time. Game managers of the 1980 and 1990 all recognized these changes were or would be necessary but for various reasons wanted to put it off as long as possible. Most wanted Utah to continue to have the "Traditional Deer Hunt" as long as possible.

It seems there may now be some managers who believe we have finally come to the time when we can no longer put off some of these hard and difficult choices. I hope they all can come to a consensuses that the deer herd can remain viable, as a hunt able species, if new and more manageable strategies a not put in place.

Many changes have come to the life of the mule deer and it's predators including us humans.

Freeways with high fenced barriers, vehicles moving at 80 miles per hour, the impact and consequences of the 1080 ban, rifle and spotting optics, professional year round mule deer hunters, reduction of winter range, domestic livestock transformation from sheep to cattle, social and culture evolution associated with the sport of hunting, political advantages and disadvantages that can be gained by supporting hunting or not, attitude changes associated with landowners and private land access, public land access and the fight for control over wilderness and non-wilderness access and how these issues impact traditional hunting, water issues and river/stream flow controls, etc, etc.

All of these issues have in one way or another crusted mule deer in Utah.

While getting off your backside and finding small pockets of older bucks may still be possible and in fact still is possible, it doesn't change the fact that we are on the brink of loosing the kind of mule deer populations that could and should be maintained in the State. There is still ample opportunity to reverse the decline but action must be taken soon, very soon or that will not be the case.

Complaining about the DWR and their lack of interest or desire will accomplish nothing but to anger those that can in fact solve the problem. Without the full support and effort of the DWR mule deer will not recover. Without the commitment of the Rank and File DWR and it's Administrators we can expect mule deer to continue to decline across the State.

It sounds is if the DWR is finally attempting to bring significant changes to mule deer management. As a historic and outspoken critic of the Division I would like to encourage any sportsmen that wants to see an improvement in mule deer management to get behind the current effort and lets see if we can't get mule deer back on the path to recover, in spite of the sacrifices we all must make and lets support the DWR and attempt to work together with them for a worthwhile change.

Not a single mule deer hunter in the State wants less opportunity (to suggest otherwise is foolish and naive) but the wise ones will understand that there is a time to summer-follow and time to plant. It's time, past time, to summer-follow (rest) some of our mule deer herds so they can bring forth an abundance of production tomorrow. As with every aspect of nature, if your going to have an ongoing harvest you must invest in the resource. Our investment must, in some case, include give these deer an opportunity to re-establish themselves so that we may enjoy hunting them far into the future.

DC

 

[oakbrush]

> I posted this on the
>Utah Huntin Talk section earlier
>
>
>The 5 day hunt season along
>with the 3 day hunt
>season on units under 15
>bucks/100 does is just the
>beginning. The RACs and especially
>the Wildlife Board will be
>implementing some major changes designed
>to start the process of
>increasing deer herd numbers where
>appropriate.
>This will include things like continued
>habitat enhancement in partnership with
>SFW, RMEF, MDF, federal and
>state agencies.
>There will be a concerted effort
>to move toward forming smaller
>geographical management units that will
>be managed individually both for
>quality and quantity.
>
>Limiting the number of tags and
>length of seasons within each
>of those smaller management units
>will be implemented as deemed
>appropriate.
>
>Predator management will get more attention
>- including wolves, which seemed
>posed to begin making a
>huge impact on big game
>numbers especially in the NE
>part of the state.
>
>There will be a big push
>to establish a funding mechanism
>to provide funds for big
>game fencing along all major
>highways and the appropriate structures
>needed so that big game
>can migrate and access critical
>winter ranges.
>
>
>
>This will require sacrifice on the
>part of all hunters and
>sportsmen but I believe it
>is necessary.
>

Nebo,
Where is this info coming from? Particularly...

">There will be a concerted effort
>to move toward forming smaller
>geographical management units that will
>be managed individually both for
>quality and quantity.
>
>Limiting the number of tags and
>length of seasons within each
>of those smaller management units
>will be implemented as deemed
>appropriate."

Is this on the DWR website or is this just what you want to see happen? post a link or show where the division has talked about this.

I like the changes, but would like to see if these are just somebody's ideas or actual steps that the DWR is looking at. Show us where the info is coming from.

Thanks
oakbrush

 

[JakeH]

I think Nebo is on the deer committee, or something like that.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

 

[dgwoody]

I agree with most of what you said, 2lumpy, except for the comment about no one wanting less opportunity. I think people would except fewer opportunities, if the quality of the opportunity was going to be greater. Ya, I agree, most guys who get off their arse and scout, can find good deer, but if the quality and quantity of deer was better, those same guys would take the reduced chances to have the opportunity to kill a pig, rather then just your average "respectible" deer.

I also disagree with the comment someone made about the 4 point or better rule making for fewer 4 point deer. Most "meat hunters" I know don't use deer as their primary source, its elk that get most of that attention. I think a lot of people shoot the first buck they see cause they know it might be the only opportunity they get to shoot a deer.

And last, someone made the comment that smaller bucks would mean poor breeding conditions. False. At least their would be bucks to actually breed the doe's. I don't know if this comment was made to suggest that two points cannot pass good genetics, I've heard this comment made in the past and it always makes me laugh. The age of a deer doesn't have anything to do with genetics. Just cause an old man has gray hair, doesn't mean he no longer carries genetics for brown hair. Anyway, I know that probably not what you ment, but regardless, more bucks around means more doe's are going to be breed, regardless of how big the buck is. I was just up at Hardware ranch last weekend, the wagon driver said that studies have shown that 90% of the elk up there are carrying calves, why do you think that is? Because its a spike only area, so there are more raghorn bulls and trophy bulls around to breed them.

You can have a lot more deer in a unit then elk, plus, you don't see elk running though the middle of town like you do with deer. Deer are much more adaptable then most other animals, but getting the herd numbers back to where they should be is obviously the problem at hand. You aren't going to do tha without sacrifice. This goes to everyone involved, us as hunters, but it should also go the other way, to the division and the state in loss of revinue by reducing tag numbers. In my oppinion, the reduced hunt dates will help a little, but people are going to be more likely now to shoot the first deer they see, rather then hold out like they might have in years past.

I hear a lot of people talk about "the glory days" of the '80's and how it was so much easier to kill a nice deer then it is now. I hear those same people claim the reason was "there just weren't as many people" no, its just that there were more deer. The winter kill of '93 took out a lot of animals, and the herd hasn't recovered. Its my OPPINION that the reason for this is because there hasn't been any, or enough, sacrifice made by us as hunters, average citizens who drive our highways, or the state/DWR. So much focus has gone to elk management over the last decade, but deer have been forsaken in this effort. I don't claim to knwo all the answers, but I do know that the steps that have been laid out over the last couple of months are good, but not good enough for the long term rebound of the herd.

 

[bigthree]

If they do the smaller units it would be great for the deer where we hunt when nebo went to 5 day hunt we had alot more pressure on the deer that can't hold alot of extra hunters, our group has about 10 diffrent guys every year that draw.and its tuff, young hunters get their deer and Im sorry but we try to find good bucks for them to shoot but it,s about making quality hunts but when you have 2 points and spikes doing most of the breading where we are .and yes we do alot of post scouting and when you see 22 head of does with 2x1 doing the breading this is bad.If you know that #s are low close it but the state is'nt going to close it down,theres to much money lost! this has happened for years where we hunt if nebo gets snowed in then more hunters are out where we hunt so if you hunt nebo then hunt nebo if you hunt strawberry then hunt it but when it gets snowed in dont go west and kill are 2 points Lol stay up there and shoot them. But really we need to break down into smaller unitsif we want better hunts

 

[dgwoody]

I like the smaller units idea. It would probably ease the pressure off some of the major units (henry's, pawnsi...whatever) down the road when some of the other units start to consistently produce better deer. Plus, it would resolve some of the opportunity thing, as the success rates would probably drop slightly even with the same number of tags. (which should really be cut)

 

[silentshadow]

Hunted Utah most of my life. I live in Nevada now. Changes are due for Utah. A five day hunt is a start. Next reduce the tag numbers. Someone was talking about wolves, forget about the wolves lets focus on the coyotes and lions. They kill a lot more deer than hunters. Read an article in a hunting magazine about New Mexico, they figured that they had 2,000 Lions statewide. A lion kills a deer a week. You do the math!!! oh yea what about the coyotes?

 

[silentshadow]

great comment on hunters getting off their back side. i think the bucks are their,sometimes you you need to turn off the key and put on the pack.

 

[RACKMASTER]

focus on wolves, yotes and lions?...all the ideas in the world won't stop a fellas from poaching unless its a mandatory prison sentence!
smaller units, primitive, roadless units and multi season units and the way Robb said are by for the only way it works!
no point banking!
most units work roll over every two years for the most part and a few others will take off in quality like the rock did! you still have your gen areas to fall back on! however its all about money and its going to cost more to play!

rackmaster

 

[nebo12000]

The information I gave is as result of a discussion with a member of the Wildlife Board. I was pretty amazed when they announced to the RAC The 5 day hunt statewide and a 3 day hunt for units under 15 bucks/100 does. I had a very informative discussion with him about the path the Wildlife Board is now embarking upon. The changes that will be implemented is driven mostly by the opinions and discussions that the board members have heard from individual hunters and groups at the RAC meetings. We have very pro-active board right now that is extremely concerned with Mule deer numbers and hunter dissatisfaction. Most of the DWR folks are not opposed to most of the changes that they may have to implement but it may create additional work loads. When the move is made to "micro-manage", every unit will have to have a "plan objective" written and approved. I believe that it is well worth the effort to begin this process.
I know most of you feel that you have been banging your head against the wall for years concerning the changes that you felt were necessary, I believe that we now we have a wildlife board and a majority of hunters who are not as concerned with just being able to hunt every year as they are with the health and vitality of deer herds. I believe that the youth are more discouraged not because of opportunity to hunt but more importantly the quality of the hunt.
Changes will come and hopefully together we can build back the deer herds to an appropriate, sustainable level in every area of the state.

 

[2lumpy]

rackmaster,

Your right boss, it's as system, not a couple of tweaks. The entire system must be redone. It's like the end of WWII, if you don't start to rebuild from the basement up you'll be back at war in a few years. When the Nazi's surrendered the Allied Forces told the Germany people the only law that was left in Germany was that you had to stop at the stop signs, other than that, there were are no laws and we'll rebuild Germany from summer-follow. (Figuratively speaking, you couldn't shot your neighbor either but you get the idea.)

When you talk about investing in a sick deer herd, your not just talking about hunter days afield or habitat, it take a systemic change to heal it. Investing means sacrifice, now for a better tomorrow. We seem to have forgotten that in our "Wall Street 3 month business plan for immediate profit philosophy" now days.

It takes time, (i.e.: hunt days afield) heavy equipment, seed, bullets (in predator), long term business plans, visions, dreams, muscle, guts, persistence, marketing, and money, money from sportsmen, money from your government's tax revenues, money from butter to buy guns. A little lesson in fundamental economics might do a few of your friends a world of good. You can not have your cake and eat it to. What that means is you can't keep hunting these deer into oblivion and expect them to just keep showing up every August/Sept/Oct. What hunters and sportsmen did in the past, what season lengths they enjoyed, the number of hunters that could hunt, the size of the hunting camps, the number of family members and friends in the camps, the number of deer tags they had to fill, the number of weekends you could go, the many and distant locations you could hunt, the size the herd used to be, the number of bucks/does/fawns they had then make absolutely no difference now.

Right now, faces with the realities in our time, it doesn't matter if archery hunters don't harvest as high a ratio per hunter as rifle hunters, or muzzleloaders have more or less days afield, it's OnLy the deer herd that matters.

Are you the type that is going to grab yours and to hell with tomorrow and to hell with everyone else or are you willing to give up whatever needs to be given up to have a viable deer herd/hunt five and ten years from now. Are you going to fiddle while Rome burns or are you going to summer-follow now for a crop tomorrow?

And yes, that means invest, invest your time, your money and your energy, or not.

It's time to start now, what's past is past, all the matters is what we make for tomorrow., it's our legacy now, it for our kids and grandkids and the kind of life they'll have outdoors. Do you want a viable/huntable deer herd in 2025 or don't you?

A Wall Street 3 months business plan will not work for mule deer in Utah. (And no, I don't hate Wall Street and I'm not a socialist, I'm a pragmatist. We can't keep killing these deer with our bow, our muzzleloader, our rifle, our car, our wolf, our guide, our money or our persuasive/abrasive personality, if we want mule deer to hunt tomorrow.)

I'm not interest in an outdoors where I go out and see a mule deer or two, as if the Utah forest was the San Diego Zoo. I need an abundance of mule deer, surplus deer, harvestable deer. I'm a hunter, not a tourist and not a backpack hiker. Without huntable deer herds, I'll stay off the mountain and leave to the greenies to hug their trees and pee in their water bottles.

DC