CO unit 44...R.I.P.

4

4000fps

Guest
Would just like to take a moment to thank the DOW for finally killing unit 44. Their piss poor management has finally done it in. Post hunt estimates are down almost 80% in 5 years (most of which occured even before the infamous winterkill.)

The deer numbers have done a steady decline every year since they introduced 4th season. I have never seen so few deer in this unit, and have lived here since 1982.

They finally cut the tags again (down to 15 for 3rd), but they kept 4th season, and are even issuing doe tags!

I would also like to thank people like Garth Carter for blowing this unit out of the water that last few years. He hides behind his private land hunts, that cost $9k for a tag, just so he can slap a buck in his magazine, and get some more suckers to join up and keep paying for his hunts.

Meanwhile, the working stiffs got in line and were waiting about 5 years to get a tag. I am guessing it will jump to around 8+ now. I remember buying my first buck tag over the counter at the gas station in 1985, the night before the season.

I emailed the DOW 5 years ago and begged them to quit selling doe tags. Their response "we want to get a better buck/doe ratio."

Good job, when there are 2 deer left, and one is a buck, you finally achieved your goal of a 50% ratio.

It was nice knowing you 44...
 
Tell us how you really feel 4000!

Sad to see once great and readily accesible areas go to the wayside like this.


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
That 4th season is just a bad idea all together...in most units. Now that it has reached the point where there are few to none decent 2nd choice tags, I'd like to see CDOW do away with 4th season tags and issue a few more 2nd season tags so more people can hunt. The success rate on mature bucks during a 2nd season is probably 1/2 what it is during a 4th season rut hunt.

In my honest opinion, I think a lot of why many units in Colorado have gone downhill quality wise in the past 6 years has more to do with the quality of the hunter hunting them than anything.

IMO, 7-8 years ago, quite a lot of the deer tags in many units were going to eastern hunters who were more interested in killing elk than mule deer. They got mule deer tags just because they were hunting elk anyway, yet they didn't apply hard pressure to the big mature bucks.

In the past 6 years or so, more diehard, big buck hunters are getting the tags and the older bucks have just been reduced in numbers. The simple fact is, hunters are getting better and better at finding and killing big deer. Each year, more and more hunters are spending more time scouting and buying better gear for scouting and hunting. That's what I think.

What is the herd count that CDOW is reporting over there this year? I remember 5 or so years ago they were claiming there were 9,000 deer in that unit. IMO, someone was high on drugs to make that claim. I don't believe there has ever been anywhere near that many deer in that unit, so since then I hold little faith in the numbers they report.
Numbers are down though.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
And remember...the tag numbers are decided by the Wildlife Commision, which is made up of people appointed by the governor. What are their real qualifications? What do those people really know about any unit?

Why give any doe tags, anywhere in CO? Ratios take care of themselves.

They let spring bear, and trapping get banned, and will only give out 3 lion tags for all of 44. There has been an exponential increase in lion numbers the last few years, but they won't up the tags. The DOW forgets, lions are deer hunters too!

One reason I think unit 21 is getting so good is the lack of a 4th season. I have seen bucks walk through the city park at 2 in the afternoon looking for does during the rut. They should not be hunting them at that point.
 
Since the deer numbers are so low..I would think that there are a few HODAD bucks running around in 44. Survival of the fittest scenario. Anyone got any pics of some of those 200"+ deer in the wintering ground from this past winter.
 
4000fps - We were told by the CDOW dude over there that they were issuing doe tags because of the huge amount of development going on. Golf courses popping up everywhere. So, they had to lower objectives. I agree however, if numbers are down again this year, do away with doe tags.
I would imagine there's a small number of hunters who hunt that unit who want to shoot a doe, therefore the biologist just decides to recommend 70 or so doe tags to please those sportsmen.

As for the Wildlife Commission deciding tag numbers.....I have never seen the commission go with there own tag numbers. I would guess they almost always go with the numbers suggested by CDOW. I will say though, politics and money probably do play a role sometimes when tag numbers are set.

I don't get Garth's magazine, but what does he say about 44? I read here on the site that he killed a big one over there last year. What units does he think are the best in Colorado?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I actually talked to Garth about unit 44 before applying this year and he did not recommend it. He said that the amount of deer was way down. So there you go.....he agrees with you.
 
75 total rifle Buck tags for GMU 44 will hardly be the death of the unit and with 15 & 10 tags respecfully during 3rd & 4th rifle season I wouldnt put money on it wiping out all the trophy class bucks either. Even with the herd knocked back to 1900 estimated animals, the tags alloted in still pretty conservative. I do believe Founder is right about the type of trophy hunters being more effective. The Utards go balls to the walls out to out compete each other for the biggest buck. It was downright scarey watching them rape GMU 35 & 36 once they discovered it!

As for GMU 21 being better because it doesnt have a 4th rifle season is a bit of a stretch! GMU 21 is primarily winter range type habitat, so you realy cant fairly compare GMU's 21 & 44 side-by-side
 
Spent a little time in 44 year before this last fall.
Numbers were way down.
Never seen a Buck I'd of shot even though I wasn't hunting myself.
4th season hunts are a fricken joke!
Colorado is the only place where they hunt deer harder & longer than Tardville!
 
4000, I totally agree with ya. Great post, partner. Never "slapped" a buck before....but leave it up to Carters to do so.

Founder......why in the world would you credit this destruction to "hunters prowess" when this is a simple, canned, winter range & rut hunt? The average muley hunter can't even see an October buck much less whack one. There is no prowess involved in today's trophy muley hunting.....only late season hunts when the bucks are completely vulnerable.
 
The more I think about this the more mad I get.
Maybe Pro(Or is it hoytme?)ElitePornHunter & swBUTTmaster can CHIME in and tells us all we don't know what the HELL we are talking about?
That or CHIME in with their book full of BULL#### excuses.
Sorry,I had to vent,every time I hear:We must kill females to get the Buck to doe or Bull to Cow ratio's in perspective because the males were over hunted I start gettin real pissed!
 
TwoDogs - I don't credit all the decrease in trophy quality to "hunter prowess", but I do blame a lot. I stated in an earlier post how I felt about 4th season tags, so that should have told you what I think of rut hunts.

Hunters are getting better at killing not only during rut hunts, but also during October rifle, September muzzleloader and even archery hunts. That is my opinion.

CDOW needs to be working to lower success rate on mature bucks, regardless of how sportsmen feel. Just like rut elk hunts in Utah. Get rid of them and let more people hunt when the game is a little tougher.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
With 10 tags total for the 4th season, my Ben Franklin bets that no more than 5 bucks will be harvested. Most serious trophy hunters will not shoot just any good buck. Most are holding out for a 200"+ dirty giant. That being said, Anyone want to give a guess on how many 200"+ bucks were seen last late fall in 44?
TwoDogs, you are into buying landowner tags, so, I know where you might be able to pick one up for a bout 11K. Interested? Also, have you ever hunted 44 before?
 
Hey Bomber,
I'll bet there were very damn few that'd break the 200" mark?
Maybe on private ground?
I've seen Public ground stomped clear out & got to thinking: I wonder if there are any big boys left?Then I glance over on private property & my Prayers are answered,yes there are some good Bucks left but they seem to know where to hang out,do you blame them?
 
I was seriously considering burning my pref points on 44 this year but hesitated due to to all the negative reports I've received over the past two years. Ended up just getting another pref point. Hopefully CDOW gets their head out of the butts and does the right things to bring the deer population back.
 
>TwoDogs - I don't credit all
>the decrease in trophy quality
>to "hunter prowess", but I
>do blame a lot. I
>stated in an earlier post
>how I felt about 4th
>season tags, so that should
>have told you what I
>think of rut hunts.
>
>Hunters are getting better at killing
>not only during rut hunts,
>but also during October rifle,
>September muzzleloader and even archery
>hunts. That is my opinion.
>
>
>CDOW needs to be working to
>lower success rate on mature
>bucks, regardless of how sportsmen
>feel. Just like rut elk
>hunts in Utah. Get rid
>of them and let more
>people hunt when the game
>is a little tougher.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com

I would agree with you 100%. While not the "entire" problem our techology and skills to go with it are having an impact on deer herds. The 4th season, as many mentioned, during a rut is also an issue if there are too many tags. I believe that is part of the problem for "bigger" bucks in Montana. They are getting hunted hard in the "rut".
 
I would say that CDOW is actually doing a decent job over there. There's not a lot that can be done to bring deer populations back. Limiting harvest is about all they can do and they have done that. Of course doe tags probably shouldn't be issued if they are below objective in any unit, but there are a handful of people who want to meat hunt does near home or while elk hunting and I believe that is why they might issue doe tags in any unit while the unit might be under objective.
I don't know what the population objective is for 44. Heck, maybe they are at objective...???

The top end bucks are being shot out in nearly every unit in Colorado. Everything I hear about 61, 35, 36, 70, 54, 55, 66, 43, 67 and many others is about the same. Quality is less now than it was 6-8 years ago.

Colorado rebounded after the tag reductions. By '01, '02, '03, & '04, quality was real good in many units because there were a good number of older bucks. Over the past years, we have just shot it out some. Monster Muley hunters hit many units hard and killed more big bucks each year than can be replaced each year.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Just for the record, the DOW issued more than 75 buck tags in unit 44 last year.

Here's a summary of tag allocations for unit 44 for all seasons and weapon types that was taken from the DOW's Statistics web page :

Buck Tags Doe Tags
2009 230 70
2008 230 220
2007 400 450
2006 450 450
 
It is a bad deal what has happened to Eagle County deer units..from 2004 to present it is like night and day.

Founders post #2 is about right on also.

I guess I was one of the utards raping 15,35,36..I know of a few great bucks taken by UT guys, and unlike the majority, they were there with backpacks, strictly hunting muleys..unlike the majority that were hunting elk, and had a deer tag "just in case". That type hurt deer worse, IMO cuz when they couldn't find elk, they would shoot a buck, or up to two does a piece to cure the bordom..Its ultimately the CDOW that issued the permits, soo....

P.S, see you there on the 4th season :)
 
Welcome to my life 12 years ago. I could get a unit 21 3rd rifle every year. The deer were everywhere, with lots of monster bucks. Than Garth Carter made that impossible. Thanks. The quality of deer has fallen. Do to more hunters and more people after monster bucks. Anywhere they write about gets pounded hard. I don't know the answer. Any ideas?
 
>75 total rifle Buck tags for
>GMU 44 will hardly be
>the death of the unit
>and with 15 & 10
>tags respecfully during 3rd &
>4th rifle season I wouldnt
>put money on it wiping
>out all the trophy class
>bucks either. Even with the
>herd knocked back to 1900
>estimated animals, the tags alloted
>in still pretty conservative. I
>do believe Founder is right
>about the type of trophy
>hunters being more effective. The
>Utards go balls to the
>walls out to out compete
>each other for the biggest
>buck. It was downright scarey
>watching them rape GMU 35
>& 36 once they discovered
>it!
>
>As for GMU 21 being better
>because it doesnt have a
>4th rifle season is a
>bit of a stretch! GMU
>21 is primarily winter range
>type habitat, so you realy
>cant fairly compare GMU's 21
>& 44 side-by-side


So now we are trying to throw a little blame on some of the Utah hunters? Don't blame us if we do our homework and hunt our ass off backpacking in to find what others can't.
 
I'll give a compliment where its due. You guys were too good and too many

Before you Utah (And others) boys discovered the area I could buy a tag right up till the day before the season opened and seeing a Nonresident was a rarity. Come Sunday night the few hunters that were there packed up and went back to Denver. Now its a 1st choice draw area and its not guaranteed at that! So come on... cant I be a little frustrated at the change?
 
On average, how many years do you guys think it takes to grow a buck to 170, 180, or 190 B&C class? If you think about it a buck has to live through quite a few hunting seasons and winters to make it to B&C proportions. 1 severe winter and around 5-7 years goes down the tube and a unit is started more or less from scratch! 2 bad winters and it seriously can screw up an area for a long time. The odds of any single buck living to 180+ B&C is pretty astronomical, especially on public land that can be hunted!

Obviously 1 bad winter, too many tags, too many predators, too many monster muley addicts, drought, winter range being converted to golf courses and million $ mansions, etc and there are fewer and fewer 170+ bucks available. Just 1 thing it can set back the quality of bucks...but when there is a combination of things that go bad it can set the quality of bucks back in a hurry.

The only way to produce more older age class bucks is to change some of the things listed above. Improve habitat, decrease tags, kill the heck out of predators, burn down a few multi-million dollar mansions..opps can't say that! One thing for sure, bucks need to survive 5 to 8 winters or they will never reach 180+ class! You guys can complain all you want but if nothing is done to improve what is going on in a unit it will continue to spiral downward!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 10:00PM (MST)[p]4000fps- I agree with you 100%.
My opinion=
4th season should be axed= Hunter prowess has nothing to do with success in that season...Elmer Fudd could glass and whack a big buck every year like some do at that time-Until none are left.
The bad winters and rut hunts combined have started to show the dismal results not only in 44 but many units state wide.
Best,
Jerry
 
cut out 4th season totally out, cut tags in 1-2-3 seasons and you would have a good start on a come-back, The deer herd would bounce back quick on that program. But if they don't bite the bullet now and try and piece it back together it will take years for it to get better.I was putting in for it the following year then the crippling winter hit and now It's awaiting game. You can't lose a couple of years worth of older class bucks and hope nothing is wrong.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
If my memory serves me correctly, didn't all dates in CO get moved back 5 years ago? Third season now is as late as the old fourth season. And 4th season is crazy late now....
 
I realize they cycle because of the calendar. But - I am pretty sure they moved all seasons back 5 years ago to increase success on the elk hunts.

I recall taking to the GW in 44 (about 5 years ago) and he said if they move the season dates back, he could not imagine they would keep the 4th season and they did.
 
>75 total rifle Buck tags for
>GMU 44 will hardly be
>the death of the unit
>and with 15 & 10
>tags respecfully during 3rd &
>4th rifle season I wouldnt
>put money on it wiping
>out all the trophy class
>bucks either.

The unit is already dead. There should be zero 4th season tags, and zero does tags. If the DOW thinks 44 can only sustain having 15 bucks killed during one season, then the population is obviously very fragile!

People seem to forget:

1. 4th season tags sell for the same as any other deer tag. There is no revenue incentive for the DOW to even offer those tags. The same guys that would have applied for the 4th season, would surely apply for 3rd season instead. Do you really think nobody would apply if they can't hunt 4th? (wish that were true!)

2. Contrary to what a another post stated...44 is also a major wintering unit. Deer pile in from the other surrounding units starting during rut. There has always been a resident herd too, but it is a fraction of what it once was.

3. As much as I hate to say it, development hasn't had that much of an impact as one would think. Dividing a ranch into 35 acre parcels seemed to be a temporary inconvenience for wildlife. Now the deer and elk flock to these areas.

4. Garth Carter hunts a private 10,000 acre ranch, that is surrounded by public. It also lies in a main migration corridor. He has a deal with the ranch, and as a tag pimp it is in his best interest for those tags to sell for a premium. When you hunt private, and can buy a tag every year, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the "hunters" are doing elsewhere in the unit.

5. 44 is only one unit in Eagle County. Everyone reads "the book" and sees all these idiots slapping their names in there, and where they hunted, and assume they all came out of 44. Units 35, 36, 45, 44, and 34 all have parts of Eagle County...
 
This whole deal is a tragedy. It's funny to me that virtually none of the Game and Fish Departments do a very good job of managing mule deer. Look around. Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington. Mule deer always seem to get the "hind tit" and are second-class status. I am an eternal optimist, but I'm old enough to remember many of the better times in some states.

The wildlife managers could do so much that would be good for both deer and deer hunters, but they generally stick their heads in the sand and sacrifice the mule deer resource for one reason or another.

I've pretty much given up that anything good will happen in my lifetime to help muleys rebound. It's all just too bad. A sad state of affairs.

If anybody has good ideas on what can be done, please let me know. I'll be glad to pitch in. (I do write letters and attend meetings, but it has not changed the trends.)
 
Our big demise in CO started in 1986. The days they were hunted with a rifle went from like 14 days total, to 26! (after urging from crybaby outfitters that wanted to squeeze in more hunts.)

They finally realized their mistake to a point, and cut back seasons, but then went and threw in another season...4th!

Pretty simple solution...stop the deer hunt for a couple years and let them rebound. Short term sacrifice for a long term gain. What is the difference? Most of us can't draw a decent mulie tag but once every 5 years at this point anyway.

PS. my rant is not about buck quality, it is about quantity. Genetics are always going to be there...but there are no deer to even live long enough to really express themselves.

I would rather see 100 does and a two point in a day of hunting, than nothing. Even the existing fields that have been used for years by winter and spring deer are empty...There used to be hundreds of deer in those fields even in the 90's.
 
Some really good discussion guys. You all bring up a lot of good points that really make it tough for a muley buck to survive at this day and age. I'd hate to be a big CO muley buck! I agree that 4th season should go away. I despise the development that has taken place over the past 20 years in Eagle Co...it's disgusting. I could go on and on, but I digress.

When dealing with the politics concerning our wildlife, common sense rarely applies, but political agendas (anything with a big $ sign attached) often do, and at the expense of our "public" resources. Just look at the wolf-elk/moose situations in WY, ID, & MT. Colorado's no different.

Anyway, I thought it necessary to include another factor that I've seen take a huge toll on Eagle County's deer numbers. It's called Interstate 70 and it splits that county right in half! I can't even imagine how many deer get crushed on I-70 every year in Eagle Co alone, not to mention all the other highways going in and out of the area. During the rut, it's just sick how many bucks meet their demise on the pavement. I'd like to know how much that number is taken into account when considering tag allotments. And what is being done to help remedy that situation?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 06:03PM (MST)[p]I think some of us need to sit down and reflect on what we've learned in Colo from the past. The CDOW actually did a great job not too many years ago of going from almost 90% over the counter deer tags to all limited deer tags across Colorado. I can remember prior to that time seeing mostly forked-horn deer in most units!

It only took a few years with all limited tags plus several mild winters in a row for Colo to re-write the B&C books. I actually have to compliment the CDOW for stepping up and doing this. More and more B&C buck popped up in the Gunnison Basin, Eagle County, and scattered units throughout Colo in the late 90's and early 2000's than had been seen since the early 50's-60's.

Through the years, as deer numbers and quality rebounded the CDOW opened more and more units to 4th season deer tags. Now that the Gunnison Basin, Eagle County, and elsewhere got hammered by winterkill a lot of guys are complaining. The CDOW was pretty darn quick to cut deer tags in 1/2 in most of these units. If they were greedy they could have stayed with the same tag numbers...but they didn't!

I am actually somewhat shocked that the CDOW still offers 4th season tags..especially this year with the later season dates. Originally the CDOW opened up new 4th season units that had high buck:doe ratios but for some reason units that got hammered by winterkill remain open the 4th season. I have a feeling the CDOW has been trying to figure out exactly where deer herds are here in Colo. Obviously some units were hammered but some units were hit or miss.

I would suggest anyone that is opposed to 4th seasons to speak up and let the CDOW know! I am fairly certain that if enough of us complain that they would likely eliminate them...especially in units that have poor deer numbers and buck:doe ratios. I have been somewhat amazed over the years how responsive the CDOW is to changes if enough hunters are willing to comment!
 
Well 4000fps,
You make some good points,but I'll have to disagree with you on this:
"PS. my rant is not about buck quality, it is about quantity. Genetics are always going to be there...but there are no deer to even live long enough to really express themselves."

Several Units/regions have been shot out in Utah & the Genetics are GONE,no they ain't coming back,don't think for a second it can't happen in Colorado too.

It's called PISS POOR management!
Utah is famous for it!
 
Jim, the main problem with your post...most people don't want the 4th season gone. They all have the attitude "I want it gone, but not until I have a chance to hunt it"

And to the poster above, the roadkill was cut way back this year. A brand new deer fence was constructed from Glenwood Canyon, all the way towards Vail. Other than the Obama voting idiots in their Subarus that crashed through it all winter, it worked pretty well.
 
Im sure you are right about commenting, I guess CDOW still has a web page where you can post comments ? Its hunters that are much of the problem with mule deer. Most wildlife departments make hunter surveys, and I know here in Wyoming 2/3rds of hunters say they want over the counter buck tags available, so thats what we get, that means lots of hunters, immature bucks, and a poor quality experence, in my opinion anyway.
 
If all of you had an opportunity to hunt a 4th season in unit 44 would you? Or would you say "no thanks I have been putting in for 13 years, but i choose to pass because I don't agree with a 4th season rut hunt... So i am going to hunt a weaker unit in the 2nd season...." I think if you have waited patiently and paid your dues, played the point creep game, you should have the opportunity to hunt a buck of a lifetime in the rut, no matter what unit you may be pursuing. That is what makes Colorado great....just my 2 cents worth
 
4000fps I'm glad to hear that some action was taken and that the fence is helping. I moved away from Eagle several years ago, but still visit friends and hit the hills down there whenever I get the chance. What has been done on the other highways going in and out of Eagle County to cut back on some road kill?

And Jims, you point out that CDOW finally put an end to the over the counter tags for limited entry only, and I agree...that was a great move on their part! I wish more states would consider that option. But initiating the 4th season, no matter the quality and numbers, was an unnecessary move in my opinion. Whenever we humans get a good thing going we always want more and more...thus 4th season. I'm not sure of the reasons behind it, but I gotta believe that the big bucks harvested during those 4th seasons brought about some serious publicity, which lead to more applicants and pressure from the hunting community, thus more money.
It was a gamble. It was gambling with yours and my fragile mule deer resource. The gamble, in my mind, was banking on average to better than average weather conditions, sustainable buck to doe ratios, non-fluctuating predator populations, consistent hunter harvest stats and good ethics, and a decline in poaching. Who, in their right mind, would risk such a great thing when the odds are so stacked against it? Just not realistic or considerate in my mind. I'm tired of seeing the well-being of our wildlife fall to the occasional whims of risky decision-making as if they were expendable. With all the factors stacked against our mule deer, no matter the state, wouldn't it make sense to lean toward the conservative side? It sure seems to me that it would be easier (and more profitable) to cull a population that has met or exceeded it's carrying capacity rather than try to salvage what's left.

Being a wildlife manager has got to be incredibly frustrating when dealing with the demands and opinions of such a diversity of people and situations. So I commend them for what they must put up with. I guess all I would ask of any wildlife manager at this day and age is that they consider taking more proactive approaches to our wildlife issues rather than being so reactive. We can't afford to gamble with our wildlife.
 
Jims, I agree, the CDOW did a great job of bringing deer back..then they killed them off just as fast. I can only speak of the Eagle units, but they were taking a big dive before the '07 winter..they were killing way too many bucks, and especially does.

I'm sure they were killing that many to appease farmers and ranchers because of property damage...they can cry me a river cuz there aint very damn many that will let hunters on.
 
Regardless of the fencing, winter-kills, liberal tag structure every dusk a furry feline is headed out to fill their stomach.

Knocking back the cats will really help.
 
Its the lack of big old bucks that bothers me, I think its the modern high tec hunter with his obession for trophys,(Im one) that does the damage on that front. Cats and cars and subdivisions may keep the overall numbers down, but the lack of mature bucks is whats most noticable in all but the very least hunted deer herds.
 
There is really not too much left to say that has not been said and I agree with founder and 4000. I've hunted this unit since the late 70's and have seen all the changes since then. It is true that most hunters were after elk only in the 80's and 90's. Most of the monster bucks killed were taken by elk hunters. I was glad to see this unit go to a drawing and had high hopes the fish and game would step up and manage the deer herd. Then a couple ranches sold to developers and all those homes started to encroach into the winter range. The winter range is fairly high altitude, the lowest down around Gypsum at about 6500 feet and the rest all higher. I'm guessing it snows alot in the winter. I've heard stories of the elk and deer standing on the railroad tracks and just getting mowed down when a train comes by. All this new home developing moving up the mountain, forcing the animals to winter higher and in peoples back yards has got to take a toll.
In the early 2000's the word came out that this is where to hunt for big mulies. I'm not pointing any fingers, but it has happened and like founder says these guys (us) have done well figuring out how to get these bucks in the "regular seasons". There should not be a 4th season ! This sucks !
Having doe hunts is not the answer either. Maybe the ratio of bucks to does is off but one buck can breed many does but only does can have fawns. Worry about the ratio when the herd is larger.....PLEASE.
Moose
 
With all this concern for Colorado?s deer herds, how many of you chose not to be a hypocrite and apply only for a 2nd season tag or an earlier season, or better yet chose not to hunt Colorado at all as a true showing of concern for the deer? Still don't see how this years tag quota of 15 3rd rifle & 10 4th rifle tags will wipe out the GMU, but I only have a Master of Science in Management, not ?Wildlife? Management so I'm no expert.

Should we lobby and press hard to make it where Nonresidents can only apply for a 2nd season tag? That would help the age class? Should all Western States work together so that a person can only draw ?1? mule deer tag a year throughout the West, that would certainly help? Should Colorado go to a hard cap 90/10 Resident/Nonresident tag allocation, that would help limit the harvest too by limiting the number of trophy hunters which a lot of Colorado Nonresident hunters are.
 
Im a nonresident, but the allocating a flat 10% for nonresidents would probably be the best solution, thats about the average for the western states, and the pressure on trophys is just going to become more intense every year. There is no end in sight, and there are no easy answers.
 
>Still don't see how this years
>tag quota of 15 3rd
>rifle & 10 4th rifle
>tags will wipe out the
>GMU, but I only have
>a Master of Science in
>Management, not ?Wildlife? Management

Guess you cannot teach "common sense." You are missing the point, 44 has gotten so bad that the DOW believes the herd can only sustain having 15 bucks killed. Don't you think if the herd can only afford the killing of 15 bucks during third, that the unit is already wiped out? They would be better of ditching 4th, and giving all 25 tags for third. I think the hunt needs to be shut down completely for a couple years.

And how can some of you guys praise the DOW for "doing the right thing" and making the whole state draw? The whole state would not have had to go to a draw if it weren't for the mismanagement by the DOW in the first place! The DOW likes to point the finger at loss of winter range, drought, etc etc. Maybe they need a mirror. Almost doubling the length of the rifle season in 1986 started this whole fiasco! Then throw in a 4th season, and voila, no more deer.

Before 1986, there were three seasons: Separate deer, separate elk, and one combined season ("3rd"). Separate deer season was only 5 days, and third season was 9 days. The outfitters cried that they wanted more hunts to sell, so the DOW did exactly that!

PS: Barf Carter is still listing 44 as his #2 pick. Got to keep those landowner tag prices high when you are a tag pimp!
 
Like I said before, some good discussion here, with all kinds of good points brought up. However, 4000fps, I don't think it matters what anybody brings up as a discussion point, you're gonna shoot 'em down. Apparently you have it all figured out, so the problem should be solved. Good luck!
 
A few points:

1-Nothing good in wildlife management happens on a short-term basis. Let's give it some time before we decide that management isn't working. The DOW is not in the business of producing crappy hunting. I agree that the 4th season should be eliminated for the time being in unit 44.

2-You want "common sense" but some things in the biology world are counter intuitive.

Buck to doe ratios are the first thing that should be fixed assuming the habitat is decent. Yes, one buck can breed many does, but keep in mind it takes several copulations per doe to ensure fertilization and that must take place within the short period of time when the doe is ovulating. Most of the does in a herd will ovulate within a few days of each other. That means if there's not a buck servicing every group of does, then does are being missed and are being bred on 2nd or 3rd ovulation, resulting in later fawns and lower survival rates because they're going into their first winter with less time to put on body fat. Those young buck fawns that do survive can take several years to reach the level of development of the fawns born earlier the same year.

On top of that, the more does a single buck breeds, the less sperm are delivered as the rut progresses and the likelihood of a successful mating is decreased. Not to mention the fact that the more breeding he's doing the less he's eating and the more energy he's expending. Good luck getting through the winter after all that, especially one like we had in 2007.

Bottom line: shooting more does isn't a bad thing even when populations are low if it's done conscientiously. It may even be quicker than letting the buck/doe ratio remain low because reproductive success will increase. It's probably the best way to increase the population without stressing what mature bucks are still left to the point they don't survive the winter.

3-There are a lot of good units in CO. Sorry yours sucks right now but you did have it pretty good for a long time, by your own admission. Maybe it's time to put out the feelers and find another decent spot until yours recovers.

4-Carter's, Eastman's, the hunting industry, and the internet in general have irreversibly changed the face of public land hunting. It's only going to get more expensive, harder to find good units that aren't hard to draw, and there's no reasonable expectation that you'll have decent hunting spots to yourself for any length of time.

I've hunted 2 of Carter's top 4 units in the last few years, having found them on my own. I scouted and knew what to expect, and I killed deer in both units, but neither lived up to the hype they got from Carter's (I don't subscribe, but I happened to get a look at a copy). That's salesmanship though, creating excitement over something that's not that special...

I really get a laugh when someone on the internet recommends one of those units and says something like "don't shoot one less than 170" and when I PM them to ask when they hunted it, the response is that they've never even been there, but Carter's said it was good.
 
Nickj1980 and COhunter are correct in both their statements. Colorado will soon follow suit with the remaining western states and cut off the majority of nonresident tags and will do so by raising tag prices for residents. And will probably off-set cost by increases on nonresident elk. It's a matter of supply and demand, and not everyone is going to kill a 170 ever season. I think a 140-inch 24-inch would make most people happy and is a representative of most mule deer bucks across the plains and rocky mountain west. I think allowing a cap on the nonresident tags to 10 to 20 percent would be better for management plan and better for us who choose to live in Colorado. I would say 90 of CDOW employees are great individuals and dedicated to their jobs, it's probably most of the wildlife commission, ranchers, outfitters, etc. that have created the bad management. And the hunter industry has zapped the money from a lot of fools.

Leonard
 
LAST EDITED ON May-09-10 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]1) I would agree that the 4th season should go away for a number of years. I suspect if enough people contact them, they may look at it for next year. And I would not just add the tags to the third season, at least not this year, because the third is so late anyway.

2) I think this discussion is good because it brings out that problems existed BEFORE the bad winter hit. However, we would probably not be having the same discussion if it weren't for the winter kill. This area is very weather sensitive, because winter range is basically a high mountain bowl where the animals can only go so low. When the winter is bad enough for long enough (as it will be from time to time) numbers will suck for awhile.

3) I am certainly not a doomsayer for this unit. 4 or 5 mild winters with most does having twins (which they will) and we should be back in business (barring other problems like predators). By that time the wolves will probably have moved in!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I think this problem goes way deeper and is way bigger than 1 unit in 1 state. How have the antis been trying to stop us as hunters, Face to Face out in the open etc. Well now I think they have found the way to do it, infiltrate the organization that is in charge of regulating our sport, I recently heard a very interesting statistic about the employees of the CDOW and it was shocking to me that 60-70% of the people working for the CDOW were not either hunters or fishermen and instead were more the let nature take care of everything kind.
So with that being said and with all the issues facing our sport and all the units being shut down becasue they have been shot out and with the wolf problems and the bear problems and the lion problems, What as Sportsmen/women can we all do to change the trend and really have our voice heard by the organizations incharge of our sport, what can we do to fix the problems that affect our sports image and attitude such as poaching and other illegal activity. What 4000fps hasn't mentioned was about 5-6 years ago some kids got caught poaching and becasue of who they were and who their parents were nothing ever happened and the DOW wardens did everything they could to make it stick but this didn't help things either. I don't know all the answers and neither does anyone but if all of us can have a chance to really sit down and think it over I really think we could all make a big difference in our sport.

Just my $.02 good hunting.


Windage and elevation pilgrim windage and elevation
 
im sad to hear other states suck like utah in game management! but kind amakes you feel good your not the only one getting screwed! i dont get how the dwrs can justify such stupidity when average joe hunters can see clearly how bad things get. sounds like many states are following utahs suit and managing poorly for the dollar now and not for the long run!
 
Regarding buck to doe ratios...there are two ways to swing the ratio, shoot less bucks, or shoot more does. Which makes more sense when the population is already below healthy numbers? Seems to me upping the buck population makes more sense than killing off the few remaining does...
 
Buck to doe ratios can also be improved by killing fewer bucks....and breeding success increased by having more mature bucks in the population.

Killing does should only occur when there is an over-population of deer.
 
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to suggest restricting nonresident hunters. The Colorado DOW can't run without nonresident cash so I wouldn't count on nonresidents getting cut out of the loop anytime soon.
 
They've already cut the tags by half since 2004. What are they realistically going to do next?

I think your goal is to piss on the DOW's boots, so have at it.
 
I can piss on the DOW boots all I want. A lot of you have opinions, but there are very few people on this site that actually "know" 44 like I do. I do take it personally. Most people only know about 44 from what they read on the net. 44 has been my home since 1982.

I would pay $500 a year to hunt mulies if that is what the tag prices went to. Who cannot stash $40 a month under the mattress for a chance to hunt a real hunt?
 
Yes you can piss on their boots all you want....if only it would help. I do not live there but I do know 44 well. I have friends there and hope to be near enough to check it out first hand this fall. I won't be able to hunt the third season anymore do to my age but I hope to hunt the second season a few more times. Can't think of anywhere else I'd like to hunt. I've never hunted the 4th season....always the third....until 07 (second season).

Hopefully the deer herd will rebound. It has in the past.

Moose

I rolled my Jeep on MF hill in 81 (four times).
 
I lived in and around area 44 for over 9 years and got to know the country and its inhabitants intimately. I no longer live in CO...thank God, but still visit friends and hunt there whenever I get the chance. I have always hunted the early rifle hunt or archery hunted. To me, that time of year is awesome and I can get into the high country which is where I'd rather be any day, rather than flirting with property boundaries and running into 4-wheelers & Jeeps all over the place.

However, I have now accumulated enough NR points to draw a 4th season tag but have been waiting to see what kind of condition the deer are in before spending my points. I contributed a fair sum of cash to help feed the wintering herds that suffered that bad winter/spring a few years ago, even though I no longer live there. I feel that that area has given me some of the best memories and hunts, so the least I can do is respect the critters that are there!

I've been sitting on the fence about whether to wait things out, draw a 4th season tag once herds bounce back, call it good and never apply again, or spend my points on another early tag or in a totally different area. I realize that if I wait too long either they'll get rid of 4th season or the deer quality just won't bounce back in my lifetime and I'll have to settle on another CO area. That's the gamble here and that's ok, but I'll seriously consider the condition of the deer in 44 before spending my points. Wish more would do that.

Since I don't live there any more it's great to hear this discussion and find out the condition through those of you who live in the area. I know first-hand how fragile that deer population is, so am concerned and will not contribute to hurting that herd more.

I think somebody should print this discussion and mail it in to the CDOW! Well, maybe not...they might get too overwhelmed at all the "answers"!
 
I can't believe Pro ain't chimed in here yet?
He has all the answers for Utah's deer Herd!
Maybe he can fix Colorado's Deer herd too?
Comming up on 40 years worth of PISS POOR Deer management in Utah & it still SUCKS!
Hope Colorado pulls their head out & Quick!
 
Get rid of transferable landowner tags and things would improve. The guys that pay big $ for those tags, I would think, would be the one's that have the most opportunity at whacking the giants. It would also eliminate the "hunting service" bias. Kansas got rid of their transferable LO tags last year.
 
In those states that have transferable LO tags, the hunting services "steer" people into those units that they have access to them so as they can sell the tags. In my opinion transferable LO tags truly do nothing but hurt hunting. I think that Colorado has visited the issue in the past of getting rid of them.
 
The landowner voucher deal was brought to the DOW's attention a few years ago and there weren't enough people on the "against LO voucher" bandwagon to get the CDOW's attention; however, they did change a couple things.

The people against LO vouchers stated that many hunters were purchasing LO tags and forced to hunt public land...many of the landowners that sold these tags weren't allowing hunters access to their property. Since that time landowners that sell LO vouchers are "required" to allow access to their private property; however, the vouchers can still be used unit wide on public or private land.

Every landowner voucher is a tag that is not available to the public in the drawing. Anyone that purchases landowner vouchers can get around the pref pt system and hunt a particular unit every year by buying LO tags plus gain a pref pt each year. Is this fair?

I feel that every tag/voucher issued by the DOW should be available to the public with a small portion available to immediate landowners and their families. I can understand the side of landowners that live in a particular unit and can't ever draw tags to hunt their own land. Thus, I can understand the availability of landowner vouchers to the landowner and his immediate family to hunt his own property. It is kind of a scam having the ability for NON-LANDOWNERS to hunt PUBLIC land every year by purchasing landowner vouchers. There also is a pretty deep pocketed market for the sale of LO tags in high demand units....units that take the public 8 to over 15+ years to draw! I feel pretty strongly that everyone other than landowners should have to stand in line and accumulate pref pts just like all of us!

If nothing else, it makes sense that anyone that purchases landowner vouchers has to give up there pref pts rather than gaining pref pts every year they buy a LO voucher. As it currently stands anyone can purchase a LO voucher and continue to build pref pts the year they buy LO tags. This is a double-whammy to all of us that stand in line to draw tags!

Anyone against LO vouchers needs to stand up. If there are enough of us that provide the CDOW with logical explanations and reasons for changing the system there is a very good chance it will change!
 
jims,
You make great points about the Landowner Voucher program. The problem with complaining to the DOW & Commission is they very cleverly hold their meetings during the week when most average folks are working and unable to attend to be heard. I went to a meeting here in Colorado Springs one year and besides myself there was only one other hunter, everyone else was an Outfitter or Landowner.
 
The CDOW always advertises on their website when they are accepting recommendations. You can do this via email, in person, at one of their meetings, and/or contact biologist or personel directly. Sometimes they have online questionaires. Keep your eyes open for this and make sure to respond!

I haven't been to a CDOW meeting but have gotten responses directly from their personell...so they do listen.

When the CDOW is taking recommendations it would be a great idea to start a post on the MM and other websites to get as many people involved as possible! Tell your hunting buddies and have your buddies contact their buddies!
 
You guys are worried about 10 late tags when an adult cat eats 50 deer a year ? How many cats do you suppose there are in unit 44 ? They give three cat tags ? LOL
 
Apples and oranges.

That is like saying don't worry about the brakes because the tire is flat.

You have to be concerned about both, and this thread happens to be about one.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I also believe landowner tags should be abolished! From a legal standpoint alone, it shouldn't be legal. There is a bias based on quantity of land. I own land in 44, but I get no preference.

How is it legal that someone that owns 160+ acres gets a license, that is for a state owned animal, and can be used on public owned land...but someone that owns 1 acre, doesn't have any rights, even though it is for the same state owned animal, and wants to hunt public land?

Also, the DOW gets $40 per tag regardless, so why should a landowner get to make $10k on a tag, for an animal that is owned by the state? Why can't I sell my tag? Seems like I should have the same right, especially if I have to wait 5+ years to get one.

I believe in WY, the landowner tags can only be transfered to blood relatives. If the CO DOW wants to keep landowner tags, it should only be valid on the private land where it originated, and should not be able to be sold for more than face value. Ticket scalping at concerts and sporting events is illegal, so why is this any different?
 
You can hunt any animal in the rut as long as tags numbers are low enough.

The problem is the reduction in the overall herd. The other problem is they still give out too many buck tags to keep the buck/doe ratios the same as the doe herd comes down... wrong!

What you need to change the CDOW and WC on this unit is numerous organized people to form a group. One angry guy won't do it. Trust me I have tried. We did it over on the Front Range in a quality draw elk unit after the CDOW raped that unit for big bulls. They more than doubled the bull tags back in 2000. Now we have a new DAU Plan that calls for 45 bulls per 100 cows again. We had 50 pissed people show up at a couple of the DAU meetings. Finally worked. We are now into the 4th year of the new plan and things are getting better.
 
The problem as I see it with those rut hunts is, it reduces the number of hunters who can hunt the unit because the rut hunts have a higher success rate. I would bet that in unit 44, the 4th season hunt has double the success rate of that of the 2nd season. And, I would bet that the success rate on the 4th for 4+ year old bucks is 3 times that of what a 2nd season hunt is. So, I believe CDOW could replace those 10 4th season tags with up to 30 2nd season tags and it would be a wash on year end quality. 20 more people would get to hunt.

When it reaches the point that it has where there are very few leftover deer hunt options in Colorado, I think CDOW needs to issue the more tags with lower success and let people hunt. It was fine 4-5 years ago when there were still a large number of deer hunt options in Colorado as 2nd choice. But tags cuts have all but done away with those 2nd choice options.

That's my opinion.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I would have to agree w/CWO on this one. If you use Utah elk as an example, UT was re-writing the B&C books for elk in the early 2000's even though they were hunting rutting bulls with rifle. Tag numbers were limited to the extent that there were enough bulls available (extremely high bull:cow ratios and high average age class bulls harvested) that they lived the 7 to 8+ years to grow to B&C proportions.

A lot of UT residents complained about taking a lifetime to draw elk tags and recently they have dropped the age class in almost all LE units and have continued to increase elk tags. The days of 400+ class bulls in UT may be all but history.

If the CDOW looked at buck:doe ratios PLUS average age class of bucks/bulls harvested I would think quality of bucks/bulls could be monitored a little closely and effectively?

It generally takes 7+ years for muley bucks to grow to B&C proportions. Everything was going well here in Colo until we had a super bad winter and everything went south in a hurry. Fortunately the CDOW instantly cut tags in 1/2 in most Western Colo units. Obviously with half the tags the pref pts needed to draw the same tags have increased.

Most hunters didn't start complaining until this happened. Now that tags are tougher to draw everyone seems to want a piece of the pie. The landowner voucher post I started a couple weeks ago is a great example of this! Is it worth tweaking the proportion of tags offered as landowner vouchers, private land only, RFW, rifle vs archery vs muzzy?

Obviously hunting bucks in the rut w/rifles will have the biggest impact on mature bucks. I quite frankly have been somewhat mystified that the CDOW continued 4th season tags in most units this year? It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially with the rifle seasons being pushed almost a week later than normal this coming year.

Although this coming year may be a great year to have 3rd or 4th season rifle tags I have a feeling Colo deer quality and numbers are going to take an even bigger blow. It is going to take even longer for the herds to rebound....especially if we get whacked by another hard winter!

It is pretty evident that each unit is a little different in regard to harvest success during different seasons. Some units may have relatively poor harvest success during the 2nd rifle seasons but some units it may not matter a whole lot. If you look at harvest success reports, the archery seasons "generally" have a fraction of success of late rifle season rut hunts. If you want to give more opportunity (tags) the archery seasons would definitely offer more hunters the chance to hunt since success rates are significantly lower.

I know it will be a cat fight for premium tags the coming years and all of us are likely going to need to be a little more patient drawing tags if we want Colo bucks to rebound.

CWO, I am certainly glad the CDOW was willing to listen to a few concerned hunters and outfitters and was willing to change bull:cow ratios in the unit you mentioned! Obviously it will take some time but it will be exciting to see the long term outcome! I have a feeling there are going to be some major cat fights the next few years for deer tags in Colo.
 
Founder, you hit the nail on the head. Success rate for the 4th season in 44 was hovering around 100%. They should ditch that season, and allocate more tags for 2nd and 3rd instead. Hunters would still get to hunt, and a few more mature bucks would make it through to the rut.

On a side note, the success rate for the 44 high country early hunt has been hovering around 0%. Perhaps that hunt needs to be rethought as well...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-10 AT 12:00PM (MST)[p]I'll give you a hint, 44 is a migratory unit, and even the resident deer don't all summer above timberline. There seems to be this myth that all big bucks summer up high...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-10 AT 11:36PM (MST)[p]what are you talkn about. the deer heard has been growing and growing and growing i know i live in unit 44. idk what your talkn bout. the deer herd has be hugly helped here. its gotn healthier and stronger. i have not seen a decline in the number of deer. the bucks have gotn big and better. maybe check your stuff again cause thats just not true . oh and DEER SUCCESSFUL LIMITED LICENSE FOR 1ST CHOICE: DM044O2R yea i hunt 44. i live in gypsum born and rasied in gypsum and the resin why we put a new game fence up waa the fact that the deer have gotn so over populated that they have been on the roads a heck of alot more now then in past years. has the unit ever had its bad times yes it did it was over hunter a bout 5 years ago. but since around 2004 its gotn better and better and better. i have seen more huge bucks in the last 4 years then i have seen in the 19 years i've lived here. i have seen more huge bucks taken from 44 444 35 36 25 then in past years. and to tell ya the truth the resion why alot of hunters are unsuccessful in unit 44 is because most will only i say again ONLY hunt the roads. very few hunt off the roads anymore. also i might say ied gladly hunt unit 44 over any other unit in colorado or any state . and i would like to no how many of you actually live in or near 44 i have yet to see this " huge decrease" in deer numbers. i have only seen the "steady increase" in deer
 
4000fps you have hit the nail on the head. I have been hunting 44 for the past 20 years because it is my back yard born and raised in gypsum. Garth And his other tag pimping pals are messing it up for the real hunters,and the money hungry DOW is not helping anything out by there actions on any of the 5 year plans.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-10 AT 03:26AM (MST)[p]Its not what it once was and with out a drastic change in management practices it will never be the same again I think it is worth a try lets rally some troops and make a few of the meetings and get the wildlife commission to rethink their stratagies when it comes to the unit also with the points creep and everything else maybe we can open their eyes to the fact that more and more people are trophy hunters and because of that increase they need to start managing more units in the state for trophy class animals both elk and deer.


Windage and elevation pilgrim windage and elevation
 
Anyone see the harm in shutting down Unit 44 for 3 years, Not just 4th season but all the seasons.
It semi worked for the book cliffs(they needed better genetic for it be good) now you see tons of bucks. Wouldn't this work for 44.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I am all for shutting down 44's deer season for at least 2 years. The first step would be to stop the 4th season, and stop doe tags first. Then see if it makes enough of an impact to avoid closing the season altogether.
 
iv been livin in the unit for 14 years and i agree with all you guys the deer numbers are dropping and the buck numbers are super low the area has amazing genetics but its been hunted way to hard to much and i agree with shuttin it down for a few years. the deer have come back a little but everyone is shootin bucks and they just arent gettin to reproduce like they should SHUT IT DOWN FOR A COUPLE YEARS and see if that helps. these units need to be monitored better by the dow and they need to get their chit together and realize what is goin on

$MAVERICK$
 

Similar threads

Duckbutt
Colorado 44 2nd season
Replies
13
Views
972
MrDoe
MrDoe
U
AZ. ELK UNIT 22 ARCHERY
Replies
9
Views
779
yotebuster17
yotebuster17
V
Looking for a great mule deer unit in Colorado for youth (my son) with 5 points (last year as a youth)
Replies
4
Views
1k
VWiddi1
V

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

IMG_4379.jpg
IMG_3692.jpg
Super Stud Trophy Mule Deer
1101201318.jpg
DE09906A-F668-42FC-9A85-B83F85AE6BB7.jpeg
A Little Height on this Buck!
IMG_20170913_084758.jpg
F5C763AA-8382-408C-A9B4-CDC5B33176E2.jpeg
E000CADC-C184-4ADF-9EB7-883162076873.jpeg
3217bbb.jpg
20220801_15534032.jpg
8552456B-8A0C-441C-9556-0C517734EA8A.JPG
Back
Top Bottom