Another point to consider...

DKMULEYBUCK

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While looking through my photo albums I realized a situation. Until about 2006, I would personally hunt or help someone with a tag just about every possible season. From 1996 to 2006 I counted up over 100 bucks that killed either by me or someone I helped just for the love of tagging along. Most or these bucks were taken by friends of mine that generally couldnt find a cow in a feedlot, much less a nice buck. One day my brother asked me "Why do you keep helping these idiots find deer?, every buck they shoot is one less that you can some day"

At that point I quit helping all but my closest friends and family.( Which still amounts to 5 or 6 bucks a year ).

My thought is this... How many of us are out there? My bro was spot on. Thats a lot of bucks that would still be out there. If a guy cant find a buck on his own, maybe they should take up a different hobby. I am admitting my fault in this problem, and have taken steps back. Hopefully some of you other guys out there will to.

I think this is potentially a bigger situation than a lot of you realize...
 
I have a similar history. I have quit "helping". Not many years ago, I had someone begging me to "shoot the other one for me".

I had just shot one of two (twin) bucks. It turned out to score 187....all around nice deer; both of them.

He was saying that on a hand-held radio. I told him it wasn't legal so I couldn't do it. I was really thinking that a deer this size deserves to be killed by someone willing to come get it.

I am 35 years older than that guy and had all but begged him to go shoot it.....might be the biggest bucks you ever see. He went a little way but came back.......said it was too far to go and he was too tired.

While he was asking me to shoot it, is when I realized "the deer deserves to be shot by someone willing to work for him". I wish I hadn't helped the other folks......those deer deserved better, too!


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
I scout tons of units both in the mountains and out on the eastern plains of Colorado yearly. I'll bend over backwards to help a friend or family member tag out, IF by the end of summer they have accompanied me on at least one scouting trip, they've practiced with their weapon, and gotten in shape. If they're not showing interest, and just relying on me to find them an animal, they're done. Repeatedly, people would ask me what I'm doing scouting in May, and repeatedly, these same people would whine about DOW, piss-poor management, weather, whatever. I'll still jump to help someone out, bet they better show some commitement.
 
I use to go back to camp and tell the guys that I had passed up 7 bucks or whatever the number I saw that day and they would ask to go with because they didn't believe I was passing up that many bucks so the next day I would take one or two of them guys and the first buck I would see they would shoot(they killed alot of forkys) and I would go on about my day. I got to thinking of all those bucks killed over the years because these guys wouldn't ever found and killed them sitting around that campfire. So I quit taking them.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
This is a good point for all of us to consider. We are no longer in the age of seemingly 'endless' numbers of mule deer, so we have to understand the long range consequences of everything that we do. It is one thing to take someone and teach them how to hunt, another to just take them out and show them a deer to shoot (especially one on the verge of being old enough to realize its potential). Helping your buddies tag a forky is kind of the middle of the road. It helps them and may perhaps motivate them to work harder, while keeping up your friendship. Leaving those 'better' bucks for someone willing to earn them shows alot of respect for the animal.
 
Ahhhhh.....another downfall of gang hunting. Why do it?

Hey DK.......how's your great buddy Darner these days? Man.....you and your dad used to hang your hat on him.......
 
When it gets to the point where I won't help somebody out because of selfish reasons I'm done hunting. You can justify anything in life but not helping someone is as piss poor of an attitude as I've seen on here. I can understand not helping some a$$hole that trashes the area and is a complete idiot, but not helping someone out in need that may not be the hunter you guys are is pretty damn sad!


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I have helped probably 10 other hunters with their hunts than I have accepted tips from others. However, it all depends on the situation as to how much I help. I built a platform on my land for a quadriplegic so he could have a place. Also taught others from scratch. It's natural for me as I had nobody to teach me when I was young. Where I draw the line is perfectly capable able bodied guys who want me to hold their hands and walk them to my har-earned honey holes! I've run into these too.

I do tend to help others with specific hotspots if they draw a hunt in a special unit I am not likely to draw again. Just common courtesy.
 
It might be best to remember that it is through giving that we really receive. I get as much joy and satisfaction helping others than I do keep everything for myself.

Have a good one. BB
 
I have been the recepiant of helpfull suggestions from many here on MM and whether or not I was successful at harvesting an animal was usually by my choice. In return I too have tried to share information with others here on MM and I usually don't know them from Adam. This is almost the same as me taking someone out or someone taking me out to a general or specific hunt location (although most don't shre there honey holes). This is why many of us frequent this site. As hunters we are all part of a brotherhood and passing on our tradition is a necessity.

Smokepole
 
I generally help when ever i can. I haven't had a whole lot of guys to help in quite a few years aside from the info freely given on here and thru PM's but occasionally i'll take a guy out and point him out a buck. I used to help lots of guys get their bucks on my Grandparents ranch.

I see your point. If i had not let those younger bucks get taken on our place, they may have lived to be trophys and then it would have been that much better hunting for me and Dad. We had it pretty good, my Grandfather always said that because so, we needed to share. I have no regrets in that regard!

Joey
 
Im not saying we should quit helping everyone all together, more like help those that help themselves. Its about learning and sooner or later everyone has to figure it out for themselves.
 
My buddy's father took me deer hunting when I was 14 years old. He didn't have to, he wanted us to learn a life style he loved and wanted for us. I've done the same for many and continue to do so. Last year a MM put me onto the Pauns buck that I took. I in turn helped another MM locate and harvest his Pauns buck. Hunters helping hunters. I doubt anyone is more concerned over the condition of Utah's muled deer than I am but when decent folks ask for help, I'm your huckleberry. A few are ungrateful and take you for granted but many have become lifelong friends that have greatly enhanced the good things in my life.

"Happiness is like a perfume, you can't spread it around without getting a few drops on yourself" ~ James Van Der Zee

I believe many MMers live Van Der Zee's life style. Folks like AWHOLELOTTABULL, sageadvice, deerbedead, Gator, conch, whipknot, DidIDraw and countless others who are on this site day in and day out offering helpful information to anyone that is asking respectfully. I believe these are the guys among us that are the happiest. The way we live generates it's own rewards.

As for me, I'm going to keep helping the folks who are trying to live the outdoor life style. On the other hand, I'll do all I can to frustrate anyone that threatens it.

Long live mule deer!
DC
 
Talk about flawed logic. 99% of hunters out aren't trophy hunters and hunters in general are a dying breed. If you don't share your knowledge and help out the newbies and the not-so-newbies who just can't seem to get r done, then they will slowly but surely fade away. That sounds great for a SELFISH TROPHY HUNTER don't it? WRONG! As hunter numbers decrease, so does the political will to keep hunting going. It's not the antis you have to worry about. It's the uncaring non-hunting public that sees no need to support agendas for a very very select few. Thus hunting will just become a thing of the past.

I firmly support helping out my fellow hunter. The gift you get from seeing the joy on that hunter's face when they see success because of your help is priceless.

The idea of saving bucks for yourself is flawed in another way too. You obviously don't know what it takes to grow a trophy buck. 99% of bucks out there will never be more than a 160 to 170 class dink. If you think passing letting a bunch of forkeys grow up is going to better your chances at a monster in the future, you don't have a clue. A dink is a dink is a dink. Don't matter if he's a forkey or a 160 class buck. On top of that, there are a lot of factors going against a buck from ever reaching old age. There is predation from lions, bears, wolves, and yotes. There is drought. There is harsh winters. There are vehicles and there are other hunters to name a few. What's to say that forkey will ever live 1 or 2 more years anyways?
 
Every one seems to be missing my point. There are very few people on this site that have helped out as many people than I have. Either directly, or just pointed in the general direction.

The people I am talking about are mostly "fair weather friends". The people that I dont hear from most of the year, then I get a phone call on the second day of the season and hear "Hey, You got me a buck spotted?" Those are the people that I used to help. No more.

Ill still help a guy out in some situations, but the days of just taking someone to a buck just to see them blow it away are done. I would rather see those bucks walking around.

One other thing, calling a 170 buck a dink is a pretty eliteist attitude.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-13-10 AT 10:25PM (MST)[p]Not elitest, just realistic. It is all a matter of perspective. To be a real trophy hunter is a personal decision. You can't expect everyone else to hunt the way you do. I actually find it rather pathetic to see what I call "wannabe trophy hunters" that talk the talk about let them go to grow and then they whack a 160 class buck and take pics with their arms stretched out and the camera touching the nose as then pat themselves on the back for being so hard-core. These are the same hunters that constantly slam other hunters for shooting small bucks. They constantly complain about how bad a particular unit is. They complain about road hunters, chute planes, long distance shooting, trail cameras, shed hunters, quads, wolves, lions, what have ya, anything that they think is ruining their chances at killing a big buck. The fact of the matter is, these guys will never kill a big buck because they are too busy making excuses for themselves.
 
BC, I dont know why youve decided to jump all over me all of the sudden, I agree with you 100% on all of your points except the size of the bucks. 170 bucks are are my benchmark, for that matter if I see a heavy and wide 3x3 that scores 130, I might shoot it if I like it. Shoot what ever makes you happy.

Im not saying Im the best or anything like it... All I meant with this post was that I was tired of being the "go to guy" for all my slacker buddies that dont put in any effort of their own. I know there are other people that did this, why not let them live, whether they are 120 or 200.

There are people that need and deserve help from us with more experience. If these people are willing to learn and work hard, ill be the first to step up.
 
DK - There is a lot of misinterpretation of things written on this site. I'm sure you are a standup guy and would help most people just like the rest of us. BCBoy is as hardcore as they come. If he didn't take his beautiful family with him all the time I would probably label him certifiably insane.:D I can understand your frustration. It sounds like to me that your "buddies" are taking advantage of you and I can honestly say I would probably feel the same way. I would probably not help somebody that is not willing to put in the time either. That being said, I haven't helped one person on MM that was not willing to put in the scouting time whether it be maps, mileage or research time with other resources. I consider it a privelage to help most and would do whatever I could (as I'm sure you would) to help make someone elses hunt successful.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
"My thought is this... How many of us are out there? My bro was spot on. Thats a lot of bucks that would still be out there. If a guy cant find a buck on his own, maybe they should take up a different hobby. I am admitting my fault in this problem, and have taken steps back. Hopefully some of you other guys out there will to.

I think this is potentially a bigger situation than a lot of you realize..."

DK,
That's what you wrote dude. I don't think I misread it. I think you, on the other hand, are backtrackin now. Don't take my ramblings too personally though. I don't know you from Adam and wasn't aiming them at you. I've been battling with this mentality here in BC for a few years now. It seems the wannabe trophy hunter can be pretty damn vocal at times and you know how the saying goes, the squeeky wheel gets the greese. As a die hard trophy muley nut, I just get tired of dealing with these yahoos sometimes. They give real trophy hunters a bad rap.

Awholelotabull,
While I ain't never been to a clinic to get the official diagnosis, I'm pretty sure I am. At least that is what everyone around me tells me all the time. Even my own kids tell me I'm crazy. :)
 
DKMULEYBUCK,
If you are helping people expecting recognition and gratitude, then you are not someone that should be judging anyone. Those are piss poor reasons to help someone.If you are not happy with how your "buddies" treat you then you have chosen to be "buddies" with them unwisely.It is not for us to decide how many tags are issued or what size deer are legal, that is up to the biologists. I help people because it makes me feel good to do so, it sounds to me like you did it to keep score. I for one, am not impressed with your numbers.
 
I was brought up to hunt alone, never show anyone an area and never show them how to hunt it, I've stuck with that philosophy since my first year hunting the people that I hunt with hunt hard and alone if they kill something it was a personal effort. We rarely kill anything but have the opportunity to kill elk or deer nearly ever time out from the truck or camp. I've had area's ruined by friends of the family who were shown how to hunt certain area's. Not only will they figure out how to kill deer or elk, they'll take their friends and family and show them what you've taught and soon your looking for a new area that's less crowded with more animals.
 
I will usually "tag along" on a couple hunts a year. It is only with real close friends I help. These people are able bodied and capable of hunting. I will not help a person that is not able to do it themselves. I am not a baby sitter.

I have the same attitude for lion hunting. There are a TON of people that want me to take them lion hunting so they can kill a lion. I have too much time and money invested in my dogs to just take any Joe Blow off the street, so he can show it off to his budies, so they can see how tough he is. Hunting goes deeper than that.

If I was really hungry, I would not hunt, but would buy beef at the store. If I didn't enjoy the dogs I wouldn't be lion hunting.


I love to be outdoors, and love sharing those experiences with like minded friends.

Later,

Marcial
 
LAST EDITED ON May-15-10 AT 06:55AM (MST)[p]I will help anyone who comes to my area and is unfamiliar with it, regardless of who it is.

It is simply the right thing to do.

I have met some GREAT people while helping them. Besides that, it adds many days to the time I spend hunting.

Kids are way fun to help also.

I won't stop doing it.
 
First, a dink is a dink. I don't consider a 170 a dink, but if your daddy is a 3 point, we can let you live 10 years, and your gonna be a 3 point. Very few deer, in fact very few areas have the genetics to be a true "trophy".
Second, I am a huge critic of CWMUs, and most outfitters in general. They are the result of the disease that has now infected hunting, TROPHYITIS. Because most areas will not have TROPHY class animals, and because most guys have jobs, family etc., they cannot spend countless hours scouting, searching, feeding, etc.. However, because they still need to be the alpha male and HAVE to have that TROPHY on the wall they will pay ridiculous ammounts to have it. Hunting is now like golf, only the "general public" will golf the munies, the true golfer is a country cluber. Somehow, if you hire a guide, fly in after he does all the work, are led by a rope to some poor animal that has been harrassed all summer and by chance you manage to kill it, you are now the GREAT SPORTSMAN. In this vein the whole "I ain't telling no one nothing" attitude follows this line. Yeah, a lot of guys will take the opener, sport some orange, and god forbid, just enjoy hanging with their buddies. They might(and I think they should be arrested and executed) go for a ride, atv or truck. Some of these guys might be older, or injured, or just lazy so a 5 mile up hill back packer won't be happening. I know what your thinking, "how pedestrian!!!" If you want to be the alpha male, the "great white hunter", etc., good for you!!! I would rather take my 4 year old, put him in a truck with family and friends and let him see that dad aint' just dad, he is also one of the guys. I want him to see that on the mountain, we help one another, we don't leave someone hanging, we treat folks good, no matter what. There is not an animal in the world worth me telling any of the people in my camp(and there are at least 20 people at any given time) to screw off. Can't help buy wonder, when your to old, or if you get sick, or injured, how many of those folks your complaining about are gonna take you??
 
I have to agree with AWHOLELOTTABULL. A guy should be more concerned with conservation and resource management than not helping a friend for selfish reasons. I help alot of people each year some friends and some just acquaintances. You should know your friends and know the ones who will be thankful and will respect what you tell them or show them. Some people can burn you and will take advantage of what you tell them.
That person you help and interest in the great sport of hunting will connect with a kid some day and may interest them in the sport also based on their experience with you. Don't be selfish that is not what the sport is about.
If your an accomplished hunter you should have no problem finding a buck even if your friends kill a few.
Jerad
Colorado Hunting Consultants LLC
www.cohunthelp.com
 
For me it's about the hunt.... not killing a 200" trophy that will "get me in the movies". Which would be a trophy I'd be darn proud of..... whether it's helping out a buddy or whether it's taking someone less fortunate to give them the same opportunities I've had, the fact that I'm able to be there in the outdoors hunting is what its all about. Right?










"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
 
Have helped numerous hunters on and off this site and will continue to do so.
Never by holding them by the hand and taking them but by giving some sound info on areas to try and what to expect. Most usually get a nice buck and some have gotten really good ones.
Never expected a thing in return and when offered I politely turn them down....The smile and excitement in the hunt retold later is all the reward I need.
I figure I know more areas than I can ever hope to hunt each year so why not help out a couple guys every now and then.
As far as I am concerned if they hunt hard and get a hog they earned it. If they don't and still have a good time out in the woods that is fine as well.
Best,
Jerry
44f4e09309b4a917.jpg
 
I hunt an area that is a meat hunt...i was taught that a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush...I dont think i am a trophy hunter my biggest buck to date is a 20 inch 3x3...it was a hunt with my dad, my brother and a family friend. Memories are my trophys. I have a situation one my friends son turns 12 next may i told her i would take him hunting, his dad is a waste of skin and never been in his life. His family isnt into hunting but he wants to go. If you were disabled would you want some help...i understand both sides the story here...




47e9fcb352ad748f.jpg

has anyone seen my kittie
 
I think you have a valid point here. However, aren't the best hunts the ones where everyone tags out. Is not part of this helping others tag out, or pack out.

A couple years back a guy moved into our neighborhood. He was from Washington and was looking forward to hunting here in Utah. A bunch of people told him that they would help give him a jump start into learning the where's and what to do's. To his luck, he ended up shooting an animal, headed back to camp all exicted and not one of these guys went back and helped him out.

My point is this perhaps fewer numbers are available, but the memories created are unsurpassable. It's all about enjoying the outdoors, the animals, the friends and the family. It's creating thos memories of your son, nephew, niece, or friends and the animals that they are fortunate enough to take. And knowing that you were part of it, well I think that is just as exciting as baggn and taggn out myself.
 
>There you go again hoss -
>picking on me again!!!:D I
>do agree with the last
>half of your post though.;-)
>
>
>
>It's always an adventure!!!


Dude I thought I gave you a compliment with the "the guide does all the work" line.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-10 AT 12:47PM (MST)[p]dkmuleybuck "has killed or help kill 100 bucks from 1996 -2006". pretty impresive thats ten bucks a year. where i come from were only aloud 1 tag a year if your damn lucky. he must have a lot of freinds and alot of time. and be very effective with his time. most deer hunts are only 5 days long thats ten deer a year and 2 deer every day of the hunt consistantly, over a decade wow! peronaly if i dont draw i will find a buddy to tag along with just to go.




"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."
 
Most deer hunts are only 5 days? One tag a year if your lucky?
Thats gotta suck... You have my sympathy.

In 2009, I started off in Utah on August 15. Finished the year with my brothers fouth season Colorado hunt on November 15. Thats give or take 90 days of which about two thirds are in some kind of season. So say 60 days.

I personally shot two bucks, one in Utah, the other in Colorado.
My son shot one in NM.
My uncle shot two, Utah and Colorado
My brother and his girlfriend, one each in Colorado
A random stranger in Wyoming while I was up there working
And a guy that contacted me from this site.

Thats 9 bucks, just in 2009.

Im not saying this to brag in any way, if thats how it comes across, then I dont know what to tell you...

My whole point of this post was to point out how much impact one person can have on a herd... I know there are people that have more time and ability out there than me and that can have a bigger impact than a lot of other issues that are discussed.

BTW, of the bucks mentioned above, all of them with the exception of my brothers and his girlfriends would probably still be walking...

I was happy to see everyone of these people get their deer, Im not trying to "save these bucks for myself".

Maybe this will clear some things up for all of the people on here that are running their mouths without all of the facts.
 
just giving you $#!* dk im sure youve had great succes over the years 100 bucks is a bit far fetched regardless. i do understand the point of your post and i am on the fence i love hunting and if i dont draw i will look for any opportunity i can find, to tag along. but on that same note there are alot of big bucks and big bulls being taken off the mountain every year by hunters that wouldnt have unless they had the help of a true hunter. there are hunters who pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single tag wich the proceeds are supposed to go to conservation. denny austad payed big for his tag on the monroe to take spider my dad drew out this year for mzzy monroe and i cant wait to see what all that money has done to improve the hunting.
 
Well, Doyle will have a nicer truck, there will be waaaaaayyyyyyy more high school kids running around the mtn. looking to find that critter that can fetch them some beer money. The local helicopter and airplane pilots stayed in buisness. Because of the influx of cash, Richfield is now 5 star rated. The local fish cop has a crew cab(wait, I think they all do now). As for the elk, the ones on the elk farm are doing fabulous(have fun with that one), but the others are still just elk, none of which is worth the price of a house. Dennys tag, 175k, guide fee, 75k, being such an alpha male that a girl found your elk, perhaps the best thing that happend in this story, (chicks rule!!), your dad drawing a tag down there, priceless!!!
 
I get what DK is saying. Like the old saying goes, give a man a fish, he eats today. Teach a man to fish, he'll never go hungry.

There are alot of "take you for granite" friends we all have that only care about the kill. Never mind the commitment our passion requires. I am absolutly all for helping a guy out but I won't help a slob!!!


Don't feed me sh!t then try to convince me it tastes good.
 

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