Utah mule deer for 2011

walleye1121

walleye1121

Active Member
Messages
331
I applaud the Utah DWR for abandoning the proposal for 2011 hunt changes.

They are now considering two new ideas which are both much better than the original idea.

One idea is lessening the number of tags in each unit until buck to doe ratios are correct.

The other idea is to finally break the state up into 29 units and manage them each a little more directly. Meaning you will only be allowed to archery, muzzleloader, or rifle hunt, in the unit you draw.

I think the second idea is the winner. I like the ability to hunt the large regions and the freedom to switch mountain ranges if I want to. But the regions are just too large.

I thought the original proposal was going to create a real mess.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-10 AT 10:24AM (MST)[p]DWR website

Members of the Utah Wildlife Board want hunters to see more buck deer during Utah's general hunts.

That goal has led the Division of Wildlife Resources to put on hold big game hunting ideas it's shared with hunters over the past several months.

Instead, the Division will present some new ideas. The goal of these ideas is to increase the number of bucks per 100 does on Utah's general-season units.

To increase the number of bucks per 100 does, fewer people would be allowed to hunt in some areas of the state.

The discussion that led to the changes happened at the board's Sept. 22, 2010 executive work meeting. You can read the minutes of the meeting at wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/board-minutes.html. The minutes should be available by Oct. 7, 2010.

Details available by late October

The Division is still working out the details of the new idea, but the idea would likely involve the Wildlife Board amending Utah's statewide deer management plan. Those amendments would likely raise the average number of bucks per 100 does that Division biologists must manage for.

Instead of an average of 15 bucks per 100 does, biologists would likely have to manage general-season areas so an average of 18 bucks per 100 does was found after the fall hunting seasons were over.

Two ideas to reach that goal have emerged so far.

Under a proposal the Division is formulating, general deer hunting would likely continue in the five deer hunting regions Utah currently has. If the number of bucks per 100 does fell below preset levels on units or subunits within the regions, however, hunting on those specific units would be allowed only on a limited basis.

A second idea that's been proposed would likely result in the regions being divided into smaller units. All hunters?archery, muzzleloader and rifle?would be allowed to hunt on only one of up to 29 smaller units in the state.

Both ideas have one thing in common?fewer hunters would be allowed to hunt in some areas of the state.

"All of the details should be worked out by the end of October," says Anis Aoude, big game coordinator for the Division.

Once the proposals have been finalized, you can read the proposals at wildlife.utah.gov.

After you've read the proposals, you can provide your comments at Regional Advisory Council meetings in November. (Download the 2010 RAC meeting schedule.) You can also provide your comments directly to your RAC members via e-mail.

Members of the Wildlife Board will decide which option to approve when they meet Dec. 2, 2010 in Salt Lake City.
 
Agreed, except the 18/100 ratio. Should be more like 25-30 bucks per 100 does.
 
travishunter3006 - I am willing to sacrifice for a while if it will help the deer population. Aren't you? Choosing a specific area to hunt on will not be that big of a deal. It will actually relieve hunter pressure as well.

I don't believe this will apply to the extended archery hunt either.

This may not be real convenient compared to the freedom the old format offered. But, I honestly believe this will help a lot.
 
Wonder how they will go about the dedicated hunter program? If they go with the sub units do we pick, or have to put in for a unit threw the draw?
 
+1 for the second option.

That "new mule deer plan" that was scrapped was a complete joke. I think the first plan they're now proposing is just the same old reshuffling of chairs that will ultimately accomplish ZERO.

We are all going to have to sacrifice something in the next few years if we want to change the mule deer situation in this state. I am glad to see that finally they have recognized some of the voices screaming from the public to change this. Smaller units, less tags is the only way!!!!

Every state in the west uses this smaller unit system and every other western state's deer situation is better than Utah's. Only the rocket scientists at the dwr will argue that it's not a better system. Manage each subunit individually for that unit, using harvest data, winter kill info, habitat condition to allocate # of tags appropriately.

The whole idea of the huge units is unbelievable to me. But so is a lot of what dwr manages to do. Whoever dreamed up the idea that a 5 day hunt on Monroe or Nebo or wherever is ok because those numbers are down and then let those hunters go someplace else on the same ginormous unit on the second weekend to kill a deer blows my mind. Then that unit the next year has to have a shorter 5 day season because everybody congregated on that unit 2nd weekend and killed too many deer. The logic of this must be apparent to somebody a hell of a lot smarter than me. Please explain it!!!!
 
Raising the buck to doe ratio is a good start, but 15 to 18? That many buck can be pulled out of thin air when they are making up there numbers. I hope to see smaller units. If it means taking a year off so be it. Something needs to be done.
 
I am a very strong believer in micromanagement. I have a really hard time coming up with a state that has failed with a micromanagement plan. Sure it will take 2-4 years to get a general tag for rifle on the really good units but those will be much better hunts with less competition as well. I think this is the only way to re-establish units like the Cache and Ogden units where the deer numbers are so low, yet so many people hunt them, and they never are able to mature.

Big move, but I like the idea. It has worked well for elk in Utah.

Dillon
 
Well, when you get your Micro-Management and tags are cut to the point we have 25+ bucks per 100 doe just plan on hunting about every 4+ years. Won't that be fun!

I like Nevada's numbers: Residents wait 3-7 years to draw the low demand rifle permits. They have a 40-45% success rate and about 50% of the bucks killed are 4+ points. That sounds like FUN!! Wait 3 to 7 years to get a 20-25% chance to shoot a 4 point. All that while Nevada's deer herd is stagnant to shrinking. Colorado's herd is in the same boat-- sinking. That is what Micro-Management can do for you.

And it has worked so well for elk in Utah that we get to hunt them 2 maybe 3 times in our lives! Isn't that great!!

One more stat for Micro-Units-- Utah allocates 5% of permits for each unit (up to 7) to be sold as Conservation Permits. 30 or so micro units and you just created 200+ more Conservation Permits.

I like the UDWR's proposal-- Maintain regional hunting, but 3 chronically struggling units will be limited. Cut tags by 12%. Looks a little like Wyoming's management, which produced the best quality I have seen this year.
 
Packout......

I agree with you.

I am a sucky drawer! This means that I will be the guy waiting max years to hunt deer on the new sucky units in this state. I cant wait to see how long they are going to project for residents to draw hunts in these units.
All of the guys saying this is the most awesome thing since sliced bread might be singing a different tune when they only get to hunt deer a few more times in their life.

Just like with elk----but with elk for most people its a once in a lifetime deal. Cant wait for the deer to get there too.

I also cant wait to see the conservation groups lining up to get their share of this great new pie.



respect my authorita
 
I think pack has some good points.

I think too many of you guys jump on the micro manage bandwagon and mistakenly think micromanagement is the champ when it just has to do with cutting tags.

If we cut tags in half across the state we would have similar hunting to CO micromanagement regardless if we had 1 unit or 100 units.

I'm skeptical of another management gimick. Lets look at the changes over the past 17 years:

Tags cut from 250,000 to 100,000 aprx.
Either sex to buck only archery.
Muzz moved out of the rut.
1 unit to 5 units.
10 day rifle hunt to 5 days.
hunt all three to choose your hunt
tag fees $15 to $35+ license
more expenditures on habitat
some regions are virtually every 2 year hunt
large family reunion hunts & party hunting to small group hunts

Is the hunt any better for it? We've rebounded somewhat from the winter kill in '93 but I'd take 1990's regs and deer numbers over 2010's.

There is a lot more going on with our deer than loose hunting regulations. It is a mystery to all. I predict the DWR will give us our wish of more units (just like they gave us all of our other wishes) and the hunt will still suck for most.
 
Wouldn't rotating the closing of Micro units speed up the recover of herds and add to the buck and does ratio. The waiting list would be higher but the amount of bucks would be higher too.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Im all for 29 units. reason being is that every time there is a "hot spot" on a general unit it attracts everyone and there neighbor to that area. with 5 regions thats 1/5 of the tag holders, with 29 units its not nearly as many. my cabin was in one of those hot spots a few years ago, now im lucky to see a 15 inch 3-point or any deer for that matter. im all for waiting 3-4 years if my hunt returns to normal. also if you look at colorados system there are plenty of over the counter tags left for the hunters who hunt to eat. its not always about killing deer for me, as long as im seeing deer im having fun, and right now im not seeing deer in a once prime area.
 
Anybody know what they would do with the current limited entry hunts? would they be part of the 29 units like colorado or would they keep it the same so we could put in for both general and limited like we do now? im up for either but was curious if anyone knew.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-10 AT 09:36PM (MST)[p]Packout is spot on with his statements!!!



"Well, when you get your Micro-Management and tags are cut to the point we have 25+ bucks per 100 doe just plan on hunting about every 4+ years. Won't that be fun!

I like Nevada's numbers: Residents wait 3-7 years to draw the low demand rifle permits. They have a 40-45% success rate and about 50% of the bucks killed are 4+ points. That sounds like FUN!! Wait 3 to 7 years to get a 20-25% chance to shoot a 4 point. All that while Nevada's deer herd is stagnant to shrinking. Colorado's herd is in the same boat-- sinking. That is what Micro-Management can do for you.

And it has worked so well for elk in Utah that we get to hunt them 2 maybe 3 times in our lives! Isn't that great!!

One more stat for Micro-Units-- Utah allocates 5% of permits for each unit (up to 7) to be sold as Conservation Permits. 30 or so micro units and you just created 200+ more Conservation Permits.

I like the UDWR's proposal-- Maintain regional hunting, but 3 chronically struggling units will be limited. Cut tags by 12%. Looks a little like Wyoming's management, which produced the best quality I have seen this year."
 
Packout and SWBuckmaster are correct. I agree with them too.

This could really suck. But, If it is done correctly it could also work much better than what we currently have.

The regions now are too large. Maybe if they went to 9 regions and the LE units.

I do not want to lose opportunity either.

I just think it will be much easier for the DWR to manage the units correctly if they stay focused on smaller units and what is happening within their boundaries.

Breaking into smaller units does not mean cutting tags either. They quite likely could still offer the 90,000 tags.

I also agree that it would be nice to make a five year plan and actually run it five years for once too.
 
I fully understand the ramifications (reduced tags), and I support Micro-Management.

I live on the Cache unit, and don't even hunt it. It is that bad. Opening morning has 19,000 hunters/family in Franklin Basin alone.

Why would I pay $35 for a permit to hike with a rifle in a pumpkin patch with the crowds.

I avoid general-tag hunting in Utah like the plague. I am hunting Colorado, New Mexico, and Idaho this year. It is a lot of work, but hunting in Utah is a waste of time and so frustrating it is not even enjoyable.

The only way to get Cache & Ogden units back is to cut tags. There is no other way.

Grizzly
 
Sorry grizzly your comment upsets me and I got to get this off my chest.

If you are a guy that can afford to put in for other states and hunt their LE units then you would not like What Utah has to offer. So I say have fun on your out of state hunts. Go kill a big one. If you can afford to apply in other states every year you will more then likely be able to hunt every year. It just wont be in one state.

I cannot afford to hunt other states. I cannot afford to keep up with the application fees. All I have is Utah and I want to protect it. Utah does have deer and it has great bucks if you get off your butt. I find them every year with my 9 year old daughter right by my side. Ive even found them in your neck of the woods. So if she can do it anyone can.

It would be a white wet dream if we could all ride around in the snow durring the rut on our wheelers, uhv's, trucks and shoot out our windows at rut crazed mule deer every year with our rifles but it aint happening.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
grizzly
please except my apology. I just read my post a few hours later and I do sound like ive lost it. I would have deleted it but it wont let me. We both only want whats best for are deer. you just might have a different way of getting it done then I do.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Stand-up post sw---#22.

I think we all get a little passionate and type a little to fast and post it.

No doubt the Utah deer management and hunts are a very passionate topic.

I am not going to get to scared about only being able to hunt every 3-4 years--------let us see if it even happens (new proposal) and then let it play out .......

I myself just play by the rules in front of me in Utah.......like 'em or hate 'em it aint like ya got a choice! ha

Robb
 
Packout, You mentioned them cutting back tags to the point it will be tough to ever get a tag. Then you mention you agree with them cutting the tags back 12%. Why can't that 12% be implemented into the smaller units? I would think that the convention tag issue could be worked out also. I'm not sure what the answer to the problem is, but I something needs to be done.
 
I am in favor of the small units, I completely understand the point a view with the micro-management... But at the same time, that is what Utah has done with the elk herds, we have arguably the best elk hunting anywhere..

I also understand the argument that we only get to hunt elk every 10-14 years... which does suck... but the sheer total numbers of deer in the state, the smaller units would be more like colorado and wyoming where the best units would take 4-6 years to draw, but would also allow over the counter tags left...

It all comes down to the question of whether you want to hunt average to small deer every year or bigger bucks every 3 years... I personally like the thought of the option of tagging a 185" buck every 3 years compared to 150" deer every year...

Just my 2-cents...

"hurry put the window down theres a deer"
 
>I am in favor of the
>small units, I completely understand
>the point a view with
>the micro-management... But at the
>same time, that is what
>Utah has done with the
>elk herds, we have arguably
>the best elk hunting anywhere..
>
>

We cant hunt our elk they most are managed like the Henry mountains. I dont want to hunt spike elk any more then I want to hunt spike deer. I also dont want to wait once in my life to do it. Utahs elk hunting for the ones that do get a chance is great. It sucks for 90% that dont.


>I also understand the argument that
>we only get to hunt
>elk every 10-14 years... which
>does suck...


have you ever looked at the butt plug we have now in our system? It is not a guraranteed 10 year draw any more. In fact there are several units if you are the last one in your point group you may not ever draw with the current system.

but the sheer
>total numbers of deer in
>the state, the smaller units
>would be more like colorado
>and wyoming where the best
>units would take 4-6 years
>to draw, but would also
>allow over the counter tags
>left...

Once again this is incorrect. The best deer units in this state will never have a 4 year wait. They don't in Colorado or Wyoming either.

spin is spin and the micro plan is BS for the average hunter. It is great if you are an out of state hunter. It is great if you can afford loads of application fees in other states. It is great if you can purchase an SFW auction tag.

It sucks if you cant afford to hunt out of state. It sucks if you have kids and want to teach them about hunting. Try telling them they might hunt once in 10 years and you can see the hunting light get turned off. It sucks if you cant pay for the application fees. It sucks if you like to just hunt with the family. It sucks if you cant afford an auction tag.

There are ways of fixing the system but this is the last ditch effort not the first.

Also can you see a trend in what SFW is doing to this state? They are making it once in a life time everything. The cougar plan they just did sucks if your a die hard lion hunter. You used to just be able to hunt them over the counter and now you cant. If your a Die hard lion hunter you now have to go out after the wanabess. The wanabees like my self that dont have dogs. This does what makes it good for the guides not the average guy.

SFW did it to our elk. Once in a life time elk. Need a guide or a posse to actually feel like you did good cause you aint getting to do it again. Then when you do get a great looking 330-340 bull and tell anyone the score they look at you like you just farted in church.

SFW now wants to take our deer tags and turn deer hunting into the same thing as our elk hunting. ONCE IN A LIFE TIME! Why would they do this under the disguise of better hunting? It pays good to be an SFW employee $$$. Its a guaranteed raise With more LE tags to grab. They are laughing all the way to the bank at our expense!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Keep it the way it is, put the whole state on 5 day rifle hunt even the youth as well, and keep it for 5 years. 5 days helped out in our neck of the woods. People that say they will shoot the first buck they see already do that anyway.

I have seen plenty of good bucks on general season.
 
Anyone that wants to spend the time looking at Colorado's hunter numbers, tag reductions, tag increases and the correlating hunter success numbers and B&C entries in the mid 90's can draw a quick and obvious conclusion. Arm-chair biology doesn't mean squat unless you are informed and your personnal bias towards not wanting to give up your hunting opportunity shouldn't impact an honest relfection on how best to improve Utah's buck numbers.

You want more bucks in Utah? Quit killing so many young ones.

When Colorado drastically cut tag numbers in the late 90's and early 2000s, we didn't go out and kill boxcar loads of lions and coyotes and the roadkill and all the other mortality numbers didn't go down. We just quit killing so many bucks every year and in less than 5 years we were re-writing the record books. Then Colorado's wildlife managers increased tag numbers and the harvest went back up and the winter of 2008-2009 put the hurt on a decreasing buck population. What does this suggest? That hunter buck harvest has the biggest impact on buck to doe ratios and older age class buck representation within a given population. Wildlife managers preached for years that you can't stockpile bucks in herds and its a piss poor excuse to sell more tags because the theory is that these bucks are going to die anyways so we as hunters and wildlife managers may as well shoot them. It's horsecrap and the occasional 20 year brutal winter that kills a bunch of deer shouldn't be an alarmist's scapegoat to keep hammering the herds.

Wildlife agencies manage deer for budgets and job security more often than not. You want more bucks and older ones? Kill less of them and they grow up.
 
+1 buckspy cannot dissagree wiht anything you said about not killing bucks will leave more older bucks next year. Utahs elk is a great example! Its not rocket science you will see monster deer or elk on ranches, National parks, Antelope island.

The only problem is you cant hunt them so who cares or you cant hunt them with out shelling out years off your life or money out of your pocket

The other problem is when deer are at carrying capacity like Utah deer are when you have a 50/100 ratio the deer take longer to recover then when you have a 15,20/100. So if Utah has a bad winter on one of its general units it will recover way faster then Colorado.

It is a hard comparison to compare Utah to Colorado and the quality of bucks and quantity of tags you can give out.

Colorado has twice the habitat and twice the deer. So in theory no matter what Utah does Colorado will always have more deer and a better hunt.


Ill take a general Utah tag over a Nevada tag and its 10 year wait any day.

Utah is not managed on it general units for trophy bucks just like its not managed on it general elk units for trophy elk. They are managed for opportunity.

Can you kill a big bull/trophy bull on a general Utah unit? yes

Can you kill a big buck/trophy buck on a general Utah unit? yes


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
I hope they dont change things bigtime. I personally think that they only should should cut tags by at least 30-40 percent for 4-5 years and see what that does. Who cares if you get a tag every 2-3 years. you can still go out with someone that does, and that is just as much fun. If people dont like the 2-3 year wait, then they will quit hunting in Utah. That wouldn't be so bad.

The smaller units could take alot more years to draw the better sub units, because some units would be better than others.They could take 4-5 years. That is a little long I think for most hunters to wait.

I also agree that colorado, wyoming is alot different than utah. I have been with people who have hunted both states this last two years. (I didn't cause i cant afford it) anyway, lets just say that I have seen alot better bucks in utah than both those states. Colorado was a big disappointment. All you who talk how good other states are, have you been there?????

Plus, utah in my opinion has alot more serious hunters that the other states. Look at the people on here and other hunting websites, the majority are from utah. That makes a differance on real hunting pressure, time in the field, scouting, etc.

So, I don't think utah is that bad considering the larger population, smaller habitat, more professional hunters, etc.

OH YEA - "THERE ARE NO BIG BUCKS IN UTAH" right SW
 
Oh yea, quit saying that smaller unit work for elk. That is because you can only hunt elk once in 15 years. If you could only hunt deer once in 15 years, holy cow!!!!!!!!! could you imagine the bucks...... alright i'm done.......
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-10 AT 09:31PM (MST)[p]I get what your saying dabigbucks. Here is another way to say it so it sinks in more.

The facts if you have no elk points in Utah right now are. "and this does not include the new layer of people applying next year it also does not include that they don't give all the people in the tags to top holders. this also doesn't include the stupid tag cuts they did this year with the age objective increase or the tag cuts that will be coming when the void of the spike hunters are creating by killing spikes.

So the facts are if you are an unlucky SOB and you are the last guy in the point pool for any of these units right now it will take you this many years to draw the tag. and you can check the facts out on our own MM board. POINT CREEP IS REAL!!

beaver unit had 882 apps in 2010 and only 21 tags 42 years
pavant unit had 1955 apps in 2010 and only 22 tags 88 years
bookcliffs unit had 1426 apps in 2010 and only 49 tags 29 years
central mtns had 2834 apps in 2010 and only 127 tags 22 years

You get the point!! Point creep is real and is a real problem with LE micro managed units. You pay dearly with years off your life.



4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Raising the Buck to Doe ratio will not help the overall deer herds one bit. All it will do is create a few more bucks for guys to shoot. If we would fix the deer herds then there would be more deer, bigger deer, and we would not lose hunters.

This is a tired tired argument.

I want the problem fixed, not more hunters taken out of the field and less days in the field.

It is a bandage approach that will not fix anything.

Be careful what you wish for, we may end up with 29 Henry Mountains and only 1,000 permits. That would be a catastrophe. Is that really what you want? Our deer hunt like our elk hunt so you only hunt it 1 to 2 times in your life.

You laugh but that is where it is headed.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Just got back from the smokepole hunt on the Manti. It was freaking 80 degrees. Guess what, we saw bucks every day. Every day we saw 3 and 4 points, along with 3 very big(25 or bigger bucks). Guess what, those smaller 4 points and 3 points we saw are still alive. Bad shot you say, no, I executed a little thing called self control. I hunted hard, enjoyed the time, saw some game, but I didn't pull the trigger on the 20" or less crowd. Yeah I know the rifle guys will kill most of them, but thats on them. The point, quit killing every deer in the forest just so you can say you killed and we might have a few more around. If your over 18 and you kill a spike, 2-point, or smaller 3 or 4 YOU ARE THE PROBLEM WITH THE DEER HERD!!!!!!!!!! Not winter, not cats, not poaching, all you "I killed it because it has horns" dudes have destroyed the deer in this state. The problem with any proposal is these guys will be in those units. WE have to shame these clowns until they quit. Don't give me the "I eat what I kill argument". Most of us do, if you survive on deer meat there are tons of doe tags, and depredation tags. Until we fix this problem there will be no recovery, and no regs can do it, we have to do it, SHAME THESE GUYS!!!! Kids should kill the smaller deer, you shouldn't!!!!
 
I shot a 2 point this year. I might do it again next year. In fact, I will shoot a small buck just for you. Keep your shame. Shame on you for being a puttz.
 
I agree with hossblur. The answer!!! Anyone under the age of 18 can shoot a year old buck, all those over 18 can not!!! If you do not know the difference between the two you should be accompanied by someone who does AKA "DAD".

Year old bucks are dumb, and most offten shot from the road. Give them one more year and just imagine the benefits.

-More and bigger bucks for us over 18

-Just think for all us Dads out there being able to take our kids out and seeing several bucks. The kids would love it!!! The 18 and older would love it within 2-3 years. And within 2-3 years all you people that shoot yearling bucks ever year could shoot a 3-4 point that just happens to out weigh a yearling buck 2 to 1 and have more meat for the freezer!!!

I hunt Colorado every year on over the counter hunts and the biggest difference is people just don't shoot two points like they do in Utah. I saw several people stop and look at two points from the road while hunting. NO ONE SHOOTS THEM!!! And this is on over the counter units. I have never ever seen that happen in Utah. Atleast not in the Northern and Central units.







You can't kill them on the couch!
 
I have kids that believe that hunting is life. They shoot their bows year round hoping that they will draw a tag. This year two of them did, and this year my oldest daughter was blasted by several youth that think that hunting is wrong. I have been a Hunter Education Instructor for over 10 years, and the number of youth getting their blue card is falling off the charts. If Utah wants to destroy hunting, they are on the right track. If the youth are not able to hunt, the sport DIES!!!! I have hated the 5 day seasons, but I have to admit that it has created bigger and more bucks on the southern region. I like some of the ideas that have been presented, and I sit here scratching my head at others.
In my opinion, the herds in Utah will struggle until the politics of management are removed. If you talk with a biologist for the DWR, they are as frustrated as the hunters. They can't manage the herds, because they are too busy meeting the regulations that someone behind a desk has come up with.
I don't have all of the answers, but like was said before, lets stick with a plan all the way through, and see where that gets us.
 
It is a hot topic..

Buckspy makes some great points and that is the direction to head if you want to harvest more "Book" heads. The problem is not every buck is going to be a 190" net typical. I'll never be 6'6". To create more inches then comes at a high cost-- payment due in less opportunity.

Cut hunter numbers by 50% and you will be able to kill big bucks NO MATTER if you have Micro-Management or Regional Management. Here is the shtick-- Everyone would get to hunt every 3-8 years. That is great for those of us who hunt out-of-state every year, but it stinks for the people who can't or the kids who get left at home.

I agree with the 12% proposed reduction because it is a fix for chronically low units. I feel we should sacrifice for the herds when they fall below the objectives. Tag numbers can also be increased after buck numbers increase. Micro-Units can not be enlarged. Once you get them they are with you forever and they are easliy manipulated by special interest lobbying- as we have seen with the elk units.

So, the Board passed the objectives of 15-25 bucks just last year. Now most units within the Regions are at 18 or so. It appears that the Regional system is working, especially judging by the bucks coming through the door at the taxidermy shop.
 
Packout.....Great post

I dont hunt out of state a lot. I have kids who are excited to learn to hunt. But I really cant take them out of state to hunt either. Hunting once every 3-8 years isnt going to cut it. It would be very hard to keep them interested if all they know is that they might draw a tag ONCE before they are 20.

I agree that there are some sacrifices that need to be made. I think that most would be good with REASONABLE accomodations. The 50% cut idea seems to swing way too hard to one side. I'm 40 right now and I'd like to think that I'll be able to hunt deer at least a few more times in my life before I'm 60. Drawing once every 8 years (I am a very unlucky drawer) would have me hunting deer in Utah only 2 times in the next 20 years.

respect my authorita
 
One thing's for dang sure, they'll never cut the number of tags because they won't stand to lose the revenue. And you can take that to the bank!
 
"money tony" that is brilliant I guess.....

Don't you guys see that cutting buck tags and days in the field does NOTHING for the deer herd or health of the herd.

It is not an answer for anything or anyone but those that are selfish and want to hunt every 5-10 years and shoot a big buck. And then there is no guarentee the bucks will be big.

We simply need more deer and better feed for those deer and the problem will correct itself.

I spent 10 years of my life working on Utahs and the Wests deer problem and it all comes back to habitat, predators and deer numbers. Buck to doe ratios are irrelevant for the health of a poputlation unless it falls beneath 5 bucks per 100 does.

We need more deer not less hunters. Buck to doe ratios play little to NO part in big deer unless you hunt them like the Henry Mtns or some other limited entry unit. Where very very few people get to hunt.

If you guys want the whole state like that then cutting hunters out and lowering permits will accomplish that, but it WONT fix the deer herd.

So I guess you guys would be happy with 50 bucks to 100 does in this state........ Problem is when we get to that point we will only have 1,000 deer so there will only be 125 tags statewide.

C'mon guys, cutting tags and days in field is not an answer, it is a smoke screen and a way to pacify those that don't understand deer management.






Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
fishon,
Lets hear your ideas to increase the number of deer. Because I believe that is what we are trying to do by cutting tag numbers. If cutting tag numbers and increasing buck to doe ratio does no help are we doomed? I am really scared that we might be regardless? You always tell us what the will not work so lets hear what will. Be specific, none of this predator control and better feed. That is obvious, how are you going to fix these issues? Anybody else that would like to chime in is greatly apprciated. I promise I want to hunt every year. But I care more about my kids actually seeing deer as they grow up.


There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
I would like to give some facts
Utah has a statewide objective of 411,300 deer
2006 was 318,451
2007 302,430
2008 273,100
2009 ?????? no numbers from DWR they have NEVER held the numbers back this long
Anyone who has spent much time afeild and paid attention the last 10 years(let alone 20 or 30) can see the deer herd is crashing.
UDOT has numbers that when averaged out thru the state have highway mortality from 15,000-20,000
Going from memory but last year DWR says hunters killed 22,000 deer lowest in many years.
Natural mortality 5,000
Dead deer 15,000+22,000+5,000=42,000
Statewide fawn to doe survival is around 60%
Aproximatley 157,000 breeding does in the herd
At 60% we have 93,960 fawns in the spring count of 273,100 deer.
If there are 2500 cougar in this state and they eat 30 deer per year that is 75,000 deer.
Total dead deer 42,000+75,000=117,000
We have 93,960 -117,000=-23,040
Its no wonder the division hasn't let the 2009 herd counts out.
Like it or not we are losing oppurtunity every day.
There are some good ideas and I am starting to believe they might all have to be tried at once.
Whether we stay in Regions or go to 29 units tags will have to be reduced. There are certain things we can control buck harvest is one of those. Predators must be reduced 1500 cougars at 30 deer per year leave us 6,960 deer to grow the herd.
This model does not even take into account coyote. Last year up Sp. Fork canyon south of highway 6 the Gov. trappers were fliing for coyotes found a deer herd wintering and that day killed 18 coyotes that were livin off those deer it's that bad.
I know what a battle this is going to be I was on the deer committee, in 2009 I was the guy for SFW that got the manti cougar hunt changed to a split season where the deer herd is 52% of objective and the DWR wasn't doing anything. I was the guy for SFW that got the statewide 5 day hunt this year some say 5 days makes no difference but the southern region is the only one with most of the units at or near objective except the northern units that are mostly private. For years the biologists told us habitat we need money to do habitat well we have maybe a million acres or more restored in Utah but the deer herd is still diving. It has hit the point where every factor has major consequences, hunter harvest, predation, habitat, highway mortality it all affects what we have left. I can tell you bitchin on this board does nothing at all! the RAC mtgs coming up is where to make a difference If everyone that has posted on this and other threads went to a RAC and voiced there complaints the RACs and Wildlife Board will listen. If you are worried about future oppurtunity and whether you can hunt every year The only way to solve that is to grow a bigger pie. And like it or not that is going to require sacrifice. I am not calling for big bucks in every unit I am talking about does and fawns to. I do not have the silver bullet but I am not going to sit back and worry wether my kids will be able to draw or not only to have no deer to see or hunt.
Dave
 
This really is a cloudy debate because, everyone has their own opinion, own interests, and we really don't know exactly what the new proposal will be. I think that we all have lost faith in those that do get to make the decisons concerning our mule deer hunting.

A couple of points that I would like to make.

1.-Monroe is a prime example of what a disaster the current system allows.

Allowing Monroe it's very own opening day last year was a complete joke and showed tremendous incompetence by those managing our mule deer. This allowed for an uncontrolled ,and unpredictable ammount of pressure on Monroe mountain. A herd that has been struggling badly. A set number of tags needed to be issued for Monroe and those hunters choosing to purchase these tags should have been restricted to hunting only that mountain. That way the ammount of pressure and harvest is in direct control of the DWR.

2.- Bashing people who shoot yearlings is wrong. Not everyone hunts for horns. Most hunt for meat. If your deer herd can't support the harvest of the yearlings there are bigger problems.

3.- Featherflippers tag line says that you can't kill them from your couch. He is wrong. I see guys do it all the time, they put a loveseat in the back of their pick up and drive the roads.
When they spot a yearling about five guys jump out and launch in unison at nearly anything that moves. 90 to 140 yards seems to be of no concern to them. They don't follow up on their shots either. This is where many of the yearlings are lost. It should be flat out illegal to road hunt. It is truely a disgrace what I see some hunter do.
 
Why do some of you think if we have 29 units it will take opportunity away? Right now we give around 90,000 tags and we have great opportunity. If we had 29 units we could manage for buck to doe ratio and heard numbers in all the units. How does that all a sudden make every unit a 3-8 year draw? There can still be 90,000 tags. Most of the units you will still be able to draw every year or buy over the counter. Yes, some of the new units will take a few years to draw. Maybe even your favorite place to hunt. If will still give the same amount of tags and micro manage we get the best of both worlds. Maybe some of you rich guys can't hunt from your cabins every year. Maybe your spot will turn into a 2-4 year draw. But, you can still hunt some where else in Utah every year if we give the same amount of tags or choose to hunt will a lesser weapon.


Bottom line:

-All you guys that still want to hunt every year can. Because 90,000 tags is still 90,000 tags same oppertunity, but maybe in a new favorite hunting spot.
-All the guys who want to wait 2-4 years to have a better hunt can. Because some of the new units will turn into lower class LE units.
-All you who want a good chance at a 180+ buck can. You might have to wait 10+ years but you can.
-All the units will have 18+ to 100 buck doe ratio
-We will all see more and bigger bucks
-It will be more fun for our kids and basic camping trips just to see a few bucks!!!




You can't kill them on the couch!
 
Walleye,

Everyone has their oppinions and I'll disagree with you on a couple of yours.

I really dont have an issue on road hunting. Some guys do it and some dont. Most of the time I like to hunt as far away from the road as I can get. However once in a while I take my kids--12,9,4,3 out hunting and the only way we get anywhere is to drive around and look for animals. We usually dont see a ton but they love to come ride with dad and look for animals. I'm not sure how you see this as a disgrace but to each his own.

As for archers taking out the majority of yearlings whether by shooting or wounding.......Thats a monster stretch to say the least.

There are some guys in EVERY weapon type that are unethical. Grouping archers that road hunt, and stating that they dont follow up on anything that they shoot as the norm is an incorrect and devisive statement. It is also not true.

I've seen many more guys take bad shots with rifles and ML's than I have with Archery tackle but that has a lot to do with there being MANY more any weapon hunters in the field.

Like I said I am usually as far from the road as I can get but will sometimes take the kids out to drive around and look for animals....and if a yearling buck provides a great oppertunity with them all there to see it I'll take him. I dont see any ethical problem with that.

I also dont have a problem with whatever type of weapon I use to do it. I love to hunt with my gun/ml/bow pretty much equally.

Good luck on the hunts this year!!!




respect my authorita
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-10 AT 11:54AM (MST)[p]One reason that the deer population numbers have crashed in the last few years is because the DWR began using a new "population model" to extract deer populations from the actual field counts. The Nebo for example went from having 22,000 deer to 11,000 deer in one year.
Not killing as many bucks by decreasing tags , most likely will help increase deer numbers eventually. However, intense predator harvest will help significantly. The DWR just put the Manti and Nebo management units into under their predator control plan, which basically means that the units are under 60% of management population objectives and that there will be additional predator harvest implemented on the units, which will include intense coyote and cougar harvest by use of helicopter and gov't trappers. Right now both units are about 25 fawns/ 100 does. The DWR says that it takes a minimum of 30 fawns/100 does to just maintain the population at its current levels. Bears are now a factor on the Nebo, they are taking their piece of the pie during the fawning season when they focus on feeding on fawns. It may only last 3-4 weeks, but they none the less are having an impact on the resource.
According to V Geist in his mule deer studies, more, bigger and abundance of mature bucks are a key to having bigger healthier deer herds. Their presence is an important element in genetics, predator avoidance techniques and other survival techniques. Many of the deer herds are so depressed that any of the increase in deer numbers from new fawns is completley wiped out by predation (including man), disease and highway mortality. The dynamics of growth really never get a chance to really put the herds in position to flourish and still absorb the cost of predation every year. I believe that increasing the number of bucks on a unit will eventually help the doe and fawn numbers to increase simply because of their presence in the population and their inate ability to more successfully avoid predators, not to mention the fact that if larger more mature bucks are doing the breeding they will most likely pass on genetics that will help produce bigger stronger fawns that will be more successful in predator avoidance. One way or another the doe population has to be allowed to increase in order for the herds to flourish.
 
Adamsoa,

I actually don't have a real problem with road hunting. It is the lazy hunters that don't approach archery ethicly that I was refering to. I just see it too much where, as I described, multiple hunters jump out and launch arrows at any buck within sight regardless of yardage. And it is these archers that I was pointing to that lose a high percentage of the deer they hit.

I agree with you. Everyone has the right to hunt the way they choose and buzzing around on the bike for an evening is something I do with my kids too. It can be an easy way to find game. I just get frustrated with the approach of some of the hunters who have absolutely no respect for the game they pursue.

If you outlawed road hunting many of those hunters would not buy an archery permit and we would all benefit.
 
Feather flipper is right in saying that there is still going to be opportunity to hunt every year with smaller units. the tags wouldn't drop dramatically because that would drop the cash flow dramatically. for those that "meat hunt" there would still be over the counter tags and primitive weapons tags but ya might have to get out of your comfort area and actually hunt other areas. for those who horn hunt you'll have to wait a few years like you do now. the way i see it the southern unit is turning into a 3 year unit and the central a 2-3 year unit for rifle hunters anyway. by splitting the units and managing them individually instead of huge 1/5 the state size units you can implement different regulations such as 3-point or better or less tags to help every unit specific issue. from herd size to buck to doe ratio to adjusting to winter kill its going to be easier in small units. think of it this way(300,000 deer), is it easier for a for 5 guys to manage 300,000 deer at 60,000 deer per area or 30 guys to manage 10,000 deer per area?

walleye - I have lost faith of the ones who do get to make the decisions. as your example pointed out what good did it do to have different openers in the central unit last year? it didn't take a genius to know that the crowds would follow the different opening dates.
 
With Micro-Units and limited entry hunting a simple problem occurs: The quality is NEVER good enough. Guys came to the RACs complaining about the "slipping quality" on the Henry Mtns. We see all kinds of complaints about the "quality" of the Book Cliffs-- even though the unit has 40+ bucks for every 100 doe. The elk herd is "declining in quality" or so the lobbyists say at the RAC and Board meetings and the Board cuts recommended permits.

The current Regional format is producing buck ratios within the objective. That is not good enough for the vocal minority. What do you think will happen if Micro-Management is implemented? Those same lobbyists will be lobbying the Board to CUT permits even more because the quality and numbers will never be good enough.

The Deer Committee, which I sit on, talked for hours about how we can manage 1,500 deer on the Henry Mtns. So much time wasted worrying about inches.

Dave makes some great points-- everyone is worrying about how to divide a shrinking resource. Grow the resource! Kill predators. On our ranch on the Nebo there have been 5 different cougar sightings in the last month. Control the elk herds. The 5 day hunts are an ingredient which has given the Southern and SE regions higher buck to doe ratios and high success rates.

Nebo1200- If you look at the UDWR fawning data over time it is apparent that the limited entry units have the same fawning ratios as the general season units and the limited entry units are not growing doe herds at a significant rate. Carrying more bucks will not increase doe populations. Nevada goes as far as to say that the 31 bucks per 100 doe ratio they have is detrimental to the doe and fawn segment of their herd.

Everyone thinks that the state will just be divided into these 29 units and you will be able to hunt just like today. It will not happen that way and it will do nothing to increase the productivity of the herds. Micro_Management is an oasis which is just a mirage.
 
Packout-My point about the B&C books being re-written in the middle part of this past decade in CO was not advocating for managing for record class deer. My point is that within a given herd with the genetic potential, B&C class bucks make up a percentage of the portion of the mature bucks in that herd. If there is suddenly alot of B&C entries, common sense would suggest that there is a substantial number of mature bucks that are also represented within that population and do make up a substantial percentage of the hunter-kill numbers. But this would only be the case if the area has the gentics to actually produce record class deer, so it is somewhat of a mute point if the area can't or has never produced a number of B&C bucks, like Utah's Book cliffs. So the fact that there was suddenly alot of B&C entries from CO means there were alot of mature bucks taken by hunters overall.

I think having a few units like the Henrys are good as they draw alot of application pressure and help reduce application pressure in other areas. Sure, I would like to hunt the Henrys but I wouldn't waste an application on such ridiculous odds. I would rather work harder hunting elswhere where there is better chance of actually getting a tag.

There has to be some realization that the demand in Utah far exceeds supply and that is undeniable. How you deal with that is the challenge. There is not a high likelihood of there being enough deer in Utah to make everyone happy in our lifetime or our kids lifetimes. Pessimistic? Maybe but realistic, yes.

I didn't read through all the posts but I would like to know how much sagebrush deer habitat is lost every year to fires and also PJ encroachment. As pinions and junipers mature, the canopy from these trees tends to eliminate the sagebrush around them, thus eliminating deer browse. This has to be a bigger problem than we probably give it credit for.
 
Packout, You still haven't stated why Micro managing WONT work. all micro managing does is give you more accurate info for a smaller area. smaller units with more accurate info would then relate to more specific regulations on predators and herd sizes. it would allow them to use more tools such as less tags, more tags, more seasons (early, mid and late), weapon restrictions, size restrictions(no 2 points or fawns), more or less predator tags. in a smaller area that would give the DWR more control on the herd sizes which should matter more than anything. as far as your "Oasis" goes micro managing is working in other states so its got to be a legit option.
 
Packout?

How does Colorado micro manage and have the best of both worlds?
I hunt there ever year so don't tell me they don't.

They have units like our big LE units that take 10+ years to draw.
They have middle class units that take 2-6 years to draw.
They have many untit you can draw every year.
Plus they have tons of over the counter tags.

Colorado also has a he## of a lot more units than 29 so they have a true mico manage system. Ours would only be 29 units that would cut our 5 units into 20 units plus our LE units for a total of 29.
For example the central unit would be cut into 4 units, the northen into 4 units and so on. These 29 units would still be very big units.
So new mico management system would be in the middle of what Utah does now and what Colorado does now.

Another thought to think about...
I know ever time people talk about a November hunt some of you go crazy. But, if we had 3 or 4 rifle season like Colorado the guys who want to hunt big bucks can, they will just have to wait 5-8 years to draw a general third season tag. This way that same guy would not be hunting (until he draws)and maybe not killing as many as 5-8 deer in that same time frame. It would spread the people out. And those who want to hunt every year can with a 1st or 2nd season tag. Those who want to wait to hunt bigger bucks can in 5-8 years. And if we micro managed the units we could do all of these things. And give the hunter a lot more options.

All I know is I hunt over the counter tags in Colorado every year and it is just as good as our lower end LE units. They must be doing something right???????????????????



You can't kill them on the couch!
 
Well said featherflipper. it would give us many more options and benefit all types of hunters. take the crowds away from one area and one time frame. i think if the people that make the choices utilized the tools right utah could turn these herds around in a hurry.
 
Question to all those unwilling to set out a year or two of hunting. You all saw the numbers that 30plus put up about the number of deer since 2006. What does the number need to fall to for you to feel the need to set put a year or two or three or even four. Is there a level or will you guys push to continue hunt when there are only 10,000 deer? Please given an honest amswer. Sony answer with the "there is a better way " answere because so far no one has come up with one that seems to work. Just answer if there is a limit.


There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Muley_73

I think we are on a different track here. You seem to think that the answer to the deer herd problem is massive tag cuts. Please tell me how that has worked in the past? We dropped from 250,000 to 97000 and the herds still fell.
According to your logic with more that 50% cut we should be up too our eyeballs in deer.
Now you are saying more drastic cuts are needed to get the herds into shape? When does that stop? How many need to be cut to find your magic number. This may seem like a jack a$$ question but I'm saying that huge tag cuts havnt worked in the past why should they work now?
I like to hunt big deer and I am usually able to find something that I want to shoot.

If there was proof that this cut would work I would be willing to give some support but I am skeptical.....It hasnt worked so far.
My question is would you be willing to look at anything but tag cuts?????

There are just as many if not more deer hit by cars every year. Predators take a chunk. We have weapons that do more than ever before. Modern equipment makes it easier than ever before to harvest deer.

You stated that NOTHING else works to help the herds. Because of this seems like lots of guys are preaching to cut tags. But there isnt a lot of people saying lets push more towards ML and Archery. I still believe that if you pushed more tags into less effective weapons you will have a lesser harvest and more oppertunity.

This gets hit a million times but look at the Wasatch Front. Tons of oppertunity with lots of big bucks and a relatively low success rate. I'm not saying give the world to the archers but I do think if you gave more tags to the ML guys and Archers and a few less to the rifle you would create more oppertunity and have better success.

Just my opinion



respect my authorita
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-10 AT 08:47PM (MST)[p]Buckspy- That was a well stated post and agree with everything you said. My point is to not allow unlimited hunting, rather to use the resource in the manner which meets the objective. Utah herds are currently meeting or exceeding the buck ratio objective on all but 3 units. The thing that should come first, every time, is the deer herd. My wife has a CO unit 34 4th season tag and I expect to see better deer on our Utah general season-- unless you want to help her out. hahaha

rydub01- I guess you need to define "work". I do not think carrying high number of bucks will help our deer herds. If the Wasatch unit and the Henry Mtns have the similar doe to fawn ratios then where is the need to carry 3x times the buck numbers? It is my belief and experience that the system in Utah for setting permit numbers will cause lobbying to overcome biology and you will see special interests lobby for less tags on their individual units. Opportunity will be lost and the deer herd will not have benefited (bucks yes, doe and fawn no). Nevada published their report finding that while they carry the highest ratio of bucks on record their herd has not benefitted. They found that bucks are using the habitat to the detriment of the doe/fawn population.

So, Utah is meeting its post season buck ratios, success runs in 30% range, then what is the purpose of Micro-Units? You guys claim that they won't reduce hunter pressure. If the Nebo unit has 2,000 hunters using it today then they will have 2,000 permits assigned to the unit under Micro-management. How did you just help the Nebo unit?

A Utah Study shows that 60% of hunters hunt more than one area. Again, the ratios are still within the objective.

Featherflipper- Colorado hunts their deer like we hunt our elk. I hunt Colorado almost every year also. Does CO have a RAC and Board system which is influenced so heavily by lobbying? Colorado has more deer statewide. Colorado has habitat that Utah does not have. Colorado units are more fragmented with private lands, making for escapement of some deer. I deal with posted private property in many high country units above 9,500' and with private lands on the lower country in Colorado. The 5 units I hunt in Colorado have gone from great to "Utah quality" in the last 7 years. I also feel Utah is more comparable to Nevada than to Colorado.

I like a mix of Wyoming's management- Regions with some limited entry.

The bottom line is bucks are not the problem for the Deer Herd if the doe population is bred. You could cut tags on a Regional Basis and save bucks, if that is really needed. Or you could Micro-Manage the few units which are under objective-- Which is what the UDWR has proposed. I can live with their proposal.
 
Fellas

All I am saying is that the problem with the deer herds in UTAh is not buck to doe ratios. Bucks have nothing to do with the overall condition of a deer herd and population unless it is less then 5 bucks per 100 does.

If you want trophy hunting then yes more bucks matter, but more bucks and bigger bucks dont matter for a population of a deer herd. That is all I am saying.

cutting hunters out of the field and reducing days in the field WILL NOT help the OVERALL deer herd at all or the health of it.

All cutting hunters out and shortening their days will do is mean there is less hotel nights are bought, less gas is bought, less food is bought and less hunters to help fight for hunting rights. But it will give you bigger bucks if that is all you want,

so I guess we should just make the whole state like the Henry Mountain, then we would have great bucks everywhere and 1000 deer hunters statewide

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-10 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]Featherflipper,
rydub01
BUCKSPY
walleye1121

You guys are all over the place when it comes to managment. You dont even have a clue do ya.

at least Im consistant Ive only said I want to utilize short range weapons to maximize opportunity on a limited resource for elk and deer. I don't want to see age objectives on any units just buck/doe ratios and bull/cow ratios. That's it.

But you guys are all over the place!!


How come you think its ok in Utah to have a once in a life time elk hunt on a LE unit and the rest of the tards get to hunt elk spikes.

That's ok

But it's not ok to have a twice in a life time deer hunt and then on the general units you can still hunt spike deer or even better get off your butt and find something better.

It's the same stupid mentality cant you see that? But you think one is dandy and the other is crap. If its good for one species of antler animal it should be good for the other. Just saying!

What is so different about a spike deer and a spike elk? You throw the horns away on both. Both take away any chance to kill something better.

If you want to hunt a big buck put in for a LE tag and wait your turn!!!! That is what you guys always say to me when I complain about the elk.

At least with the deer herd you can still actually go out and kill a big buck on a general unit. You just have to work for it.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Hey guys-
I just skimmed through about 25 posts here and wanted to chime in.
First off, I am all for the micro management style.
I do not feel like the over all tag #'s need to be cut, however some tag numbers may need to be cut in certain units.The cut tags for these units may be added to other units or other weapon seasons.
I would like to point out that I think this proposal only divides the general units and leaves the LE as they are.

Secondly, I feel that if this is handled correctly those of us that want to hunt every year will still be able to. We may not be able to hunt in our first choice unit. This will make all 5 choices on the general season application come into play.(if you do not draw your first choice you should recieve a preference point).

Finally, it would be cool to see a couple late season tags on the general units like other states, not too many just a handful I think it would offer some great opportunity for big bucks outside of our LE units (similiar to Wyomings late hunts).


LATER
 
Man I wish the division did have a magic wand you could all wave and say *micro manage* or *ala peanut butter sandwiches* and we could all hunt in the rut.

You think there are no bucks now wait till the tards hit em in the rut. good gwd


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
swb-
I was referring to maybe 45-50 general area late tags state wide. Calm down it will be no worse than all the arrows hanging out of deer running around this fall.
 
I believe that what everybody would like to see is more deer overall. I don't think I have been saying anything about the size of bucks. I see no one willing answer the question as to how far the numbers have to drop. The reason that other options get thrown out is nobody really wants to miss a season hunting, even the crazy rifle toting trophy hunters.

SW,
You are correct in that you are consistant with your agenda. It is I, MYSELF, ME, want to hunt every year at any cost! Even if it is not in the best intrest of the future of our deer herds. You are correct that more limited range weapons would reduce harvest. But they would not reduce harvest as much as an overall cut in tags. If you cut the tags and said 60% of the cut tags are going to be archery I would be the first to vote YES! We both agree that cutting harvest needs to happen I would just like to see it cut more than you.

fishon,
Still waiting on an answer? How low do we need to go. What is your plan. You out of all of us have had the opportunity to make an impact and here we set at half the deer?

adamsoa,
I believe that when the tags went to 97,000 if was at 140,000 not 250,000. We had already lost 110,000 hunters because they were tired of going out and not seeing the deer numbers they had grown up seeing.
There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
"You guys are all over the place when it comes to managment. You dont even have a clue do ya."

SWB-So if you don't agree with someone elses position, they are clueless?

More bucks in Utah......hmmmm. Lets see. More have to be born and less have to die. Pretty easy and straightforward. The only practical and immediate solution is to kill less of them ourselves. How you go about that is your challenge. Turning everyone into stickflippers isn't the answer and we see when limited to short range weapons, the Tards launch arrows at 90 yards and shoot muzzleloaders at 300. That oughta help.

The rest is long term pie-in-the-sky.
 
swbuckmaster

I like you have been on the side of drastically cutting rifle tags. My personl oppinion if we cut the tags into 1/3 and give an equal amount to rifle, muzzy, and bow hunters life would be better for everyone. More deer, bigger deer, and just a lot more fun. I'm an avid bow hunter and that is my passion. If we all would put down the rifles in a few years you could road hunt with a bow and most likley have a better chance to kill a buck than we do now with so many rifle tags.

But:
How many times have us archery guys wanted more archery and muzzy tags. How many times have we posted on this board and agrued with all the so called "Lazy, road hunting rifle huntes" on this topic?" I too support massive rifle tag cuts. Give them to other weapons. If the rife guys want to hunt every year they can but with a muzzy and a bow.

In my teen years I grew up rifle hunting. As I got older I hated the crouds and seeing few deer. So I picked up a bow and started to work am a$$ off hunting. Guess what I have seen ten times the bucks in the same units I once hunted with a rifle. I have even been lucky enough to kill a few. Most of use Archey and muzzy guys would agree this would drastically help the deer situation. But, we are out numbered by the rifle hunters.

You said I'm clue less and all over the place?

Well I'm trying to give ideas and other options that don't just help my own selfish way of "bow" hunting. Thats the problem is everyone argues for there own personal needs and wants. In my other posts I was trying to think of ideas that would benifit all of us as hunters. Not all of us are physically fit and able to go on these over night backpack trips and find big deer. One day I will be an older guy or have an illness or injury and will become a "stupid, lazy, road hunting rifle hunter".
Maybe I am all over the place, but i'm trying ideas that work for everyone not just me.












You can't kill them on the couch!
 
Packout- i never said anything about buck to doe ratios needing to go up. i said the herd sizes needed to go which ultimately would enhance the amount of deer in general along with bucks. i understand your argument on people lobbying with special interest, that's where the decision makers need to put there foot down and do their job.
as you stated to featherflipper "You could cut tags on a Regional Basis and save bucks". thats one of my points, it would be easier to control the tag cuts and deer numbers on smaller units than it would be for 5 huge regions. as far as people hunting more than one area, i understand that its a benefit but turning 5 units into 20 (29 total including the 9 LE units) isn't going to corner you in to one canyon.
utah meeting its %30 success range and having the deer herds plummet is the reason for micro-managing. you help the nebo unit out by being able to control it more closely with the tools mentioned above. as you could do that with the rest of the smaller units. what im trying to say is that the 5 regions are to big to control. they need to be split up, for example the Southeastern unit stretches from thistle all the way to Blanding which have way different issues but are being managed in the same way.
SW- so you being consistent on what you think makes you right? not even close. i am an avid archery hunter and agree it would be nice to see hunters actually have to get of their rears and hunt. as far as age objectives go i disagree, i think if we spared the small bucks that are still on the nipple and are being snatched up by predators grow to be a second year buck it would help the herds grow in general without taking away opportunity. who said anything about the elk hunt being ideal? this topic has nothing to do that.
 
who said anything
>about the elk hunt being
>ideal? this topic has nothing
>to do that.


Yes it does! The elk and deer are being managed right now the exact same way. If you cant see that then your simply ignorant. So if you are happy with the elk then you should be happy with the deer. If you are unhappy with the elk then you should be unhappy with the deer.

You can put in for a Le deer right now and kill a big buck just like you can with elk. The only difference is the division is making you shoot a 2 point/spike buck on a general unit instead of a Le unit.

There is no difference in our general elk units then there is with our general deer units either. It will take a lot of hard work to pull a good bull off a general elk unit and it will take a lot of hard work to pull a buck off a general deer unit.

They are managed basically the same way!!

*Ala peanut butter sandmiches*
you now have micro/Le units. you cannot hunt any more but every 10 years. Whats next to keep the buck to doe ratios in check and buck quality high enough for the inch crowd is mandatory spike buck tags and oil 4 point tags.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Once again, who said i was happy with the elk? i was merely stating that this topic was about the deer hunts. also there refer spike elk to be a bad gene so they want them out of the herds. i dont necessarily agree with that but thats a whole other topic.

as micro units go why would the points all of a sudden jump? same # of tags, just smaller units being managed to there specific needs. im not suggesting we make the split general units big horn hunts, im suggesting we manage the number of deer in the units which with more deer #'s would bring more buck #'s not higher buck ratios.
 
Rydub01- You stated: "i never said anything about buck to doe ratios needing to go up. i said the herd sizes needed to go which ultimately would enhance the amount of deer in general along with bucks."

A more productive herd is exactly what we need, but more bucks do not accomplish that goal. Habitat, predators, roads, etc are how you accomplish that (if it is even possible).

Micro-management will ONLY affect the BUCK portion of the herd. So the buck to doe ratio is the ONLY objective you are dealing with when considering Micro-management. The UDWR has presented a viable plan to deal with the 3 chronically low buck units, cutting tag numbers by 12%, and leaving the existing system the same because ALL other units are at or above the set objectives.

Utah's current system (Similar to WYomings management) meets the needs of the buck segment of the herd. The doe segment is the problem and Micro-Management will do nothing to help the doe/fawns. If cutting permits would truly help the overall herd I would be the first on the bandwagon.

If I have a herd of 10 cows and 1 bull then I get 10 calves. If I increase my herd and buy 10 more bulls then how many calves will those 10 cows produce? The answer is 10. Growing the male segment of the herd does not increase the herds productivity.
 
Packout, i understand what your saying with the tag cuts only effecting the buck to do ratio. thats why im saying use all the tools to control the size of the herd. that includes predator control, winter kill control and even doe tags. i think trying to control the herds in smaller units would give you better info to adjust on a smaller scale. adjustments made in the east part of a big unit aren't going to be the same that are needed on the west side of a big unit, so split it in half and make the changes needed for the specific area.

i think we're both saying the same thing about bigger deer #'s. im saying if there is a 15/100 ratio then a herd 50 would have 7.5 bucks, so try to help the herd grow to 100 and you now have 15 bucks. more opportunity to hunt and more deer. micro managing isn't only about the bucks, its about better control of specific needs.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-10 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]SWBUCKMASTER-

You are correct you are consistent about what you preach. If everyone hunts as hard and as effectively as you do then they could kill a nice buck every year. But if you have 97,000 guys start doing that are you going to be happy? If they all show up in the back country with you will that work? Will you be happy if all 14,000 archers come pursue the big bucks on the Wasatch front?

Yes, there are big bucks in Utah. if you work at it you find them.

But, the resource has to be managed for everyone. Not everyone is that passionate about hunting. It is simple recreation for many and a the yearlings are plenty good for those hunters.

I may not know what I am talking about but I recognize that Utah has a badly declining deer herd.

I hunt hard. I have hunted the same mountain the last 7 years. The changes I have seen there are disturbing.

I have friends that I know hunt effectively and diligently. I have heard disturbing things about:

Dutton
Manti
Pahvant
Wasatch
Monroe

Yes, there has been success on these units and yes there are giant bucks on all of them. But, the decline is apparent.

If I am inconsistent it is only because we don't even have a proposal yet. We are all speculating on what it will be and I guess fearing the worst. I only started this post because I thought the original proposal was terrible. I just want a positive change for the mule deer first and the hunters second.
 
Utah already mini-micro-micro-manages their doe population- specifically targeting areas with too many doe (are there some?).

Your example increases the doe herd by 100%. Micro-management only addresses buck numbers and increasing buck numbers creates competition for the doe/fawn segment of the herd, in turn making it harder on the doe fawn segment of the herd. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Micro managing is not just about tag numbers and buck to doe ratio. With micro it would be easier to target areas with more predator problems, with feed issues with highway kill. Each unit could have that units issues focused on easier. Yes some units may have tag cuts, some may even need to close. But each could be looked at on an individual case.

SW, I'm still waiting for an answer. Are you afaid to answer the question. It is a legit question and it has nothing to do with size or number of bucks. It does have to do with the future of our deer herds and our childerns success and enjoyment of what we love. I'm just afraid that the answer for some of you is 1! That is as long as it is a big buck on the hallowed front and you know where it is at!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
The UDWR already has the state broken down into 40+ sub-units which can be "fed" or predator control implemented. They are already dealing with UDOT in fencing major crossings. Micro-management ONLY addresses HUNTERS shooting bucks. That is it. Nothing else. Only buck hunters.

We can all agree there are enough deer in Utah.
 
Packout
I can agree to disagree. it was good debating with you and if you come across any info supporting your theories please pass them on. Regards.
 
Man! This thread is like comedy central! Tony said the answer is plain and simple. "We need more Deer" Here's your sign...Thats the problem were looking for answers.

And Nebo, say it ain't so. The DWR has cut the lion tags back on the Manti for years so they can grow big lions. I've been in line for 9 years to take one of them deer eaters. Now it's a miracle that the deer are all gone and were letting the government trapper wage war on the lions? I know this sounds crazy, but why can't hunters help out with the lion harvest? Yea, I know I've looked at this years tag numbers. That don't amount anything.

And to those that are bragging up the Manti. Yes, I have seen a few big bucks up there, but.... That unit is in trouble and for some people to say it's not is crazy. Seeing a few buck does not equate to the overall health of the heard.
 
Those are not just my theories. They are from Nevada biologists, Utah biologists and Wyoming biologists, whom I have talked to personally or read their reports on line and in published reports. It is from data presented to the Mule Deer Committee over the course of a year as we laid out a plan, which was passed by the Board (who now is looking at changing that plan). Micro-management was discussed in-depth. The Committee came to the conclusion that if the units are meeting the buck to doe objective then there is no reason to further restrict buck hunters.
 
I am for the micro plan only for this reason. If an area is in the toilet than they can manage it better to bring the herd back up. I would like to see them shuffle tags out of the rifle to muzzy and bow. As a first option than if that doesnt work than cut the tags on all three i do like 18 bucks but in the ne the deer herds arn't even clost to 15 so maybe we should get all the herds to 15 and than look at a increase.
 
Muley73, stick to baseball, forget hunting. Your way of life is stacking up for a whole bunch of frustated Christensen's. I've moved on to other exciting outdoor experiences.
 
cannonball,
I only have about 5 years of baseball left and there are just as big of jackasses involved in that. It is in my blood to get fired up about Mule Deer in Utah. I will always want smell the sage and glass for big bucks! Besides I am a terrible fly fisherman!!! I guess you'll just have to listen to another generation demand quality deer hunting upon deaf ears.


There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 

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