Utah deer info

[fishon]

The following info was taking from the DWR records and the WAFWA records. These are actual and factual numbers. You decide for yourself what they mean.


1983 360,000 deer in utah
1983 228,907 buck tags in Utah
1983 82,552 bucks killed in Utah

1993 240,000 deer in Utah
1993 140,701 buck tags in Utah
1993 24,763 bucks killed in Utah

2003 270,000 deer in Utah
2003 97,000 buck tags in Utah
2003 25000 bucks killed in Utah

2009 302,000 deer in Utah
2009 94,000 buck tags in Utah
2009 23,000 bucks killed in Utah

1970's Utahs deer popultaion was in its hayday
1970's Utah had less then 5,000 elk

1983 23,000 elk in Utah
1993 58,000 elk in Utah
2003 58,000 elk in Utah
2009 68,000 elk in Utah

These numbers indicate that ever since elk boomed the deer collapsed and has never rebounded.
These numbers also indicate that cutting hunters does not decrease bucks killed.

Again these are not my numbers these are the DWR's numbers.

Utah has killed more lions than any other state
Utah has killed my coyotes than any other state
Utah has done more habitat than all the western states combined
Utah has fenced Highways and built deer under crossings
Utah has cut 134,907 hunters out of deer hunting since 1983
Utah has made tough poaching laws and party hunting laws

The only thing Utah has not looked at is the impact elk may or may not have on deer.

Don't you think that is a study that is long over due?

You draw your own conclusion.....
Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Looks to me like Deer & Elk Co-exist in Colorado & there is still a fair number of decent Bucks being harvested in Colorado as we speak,WTF?



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[REDDOG]

Ya, the elk have impacted the hell out of the deer here in NW Utah (roll eyes), nice try Tony.

 

[Smokepole]

B_BOP

You need to look into Colorados 1999 Deer plan. Colorado specifically indicates elk as being one of the main factors their deer herd dropped nearly 40%. Colorado could have a million deer if it weren't for elk competition.

Smokepole

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Tony,
The fact that those are the DWR numbers and people rely on those is a joke in and of itself. I've talked to some of our biologists that actually do the field work. Not Anus Aude!!!! I don't trust a thing that comes out of that guys mouth. I know for a fact he has gone against actual field studies and that's according to biologists that actually do the counts. If you don't think they fluff the numbers to maintain license sales I've got ocean front property for you in Arizona. We've basically left our deer herd and the entire game management to a bunch of beurocrats. If the biologist wer allowed to manage the herds we would be in a lot better shape. Can you name the biologists on the RAC's? Probably not because there aren't any! Go figure.

I still haven't heard your plan/suggestions. Unless I missed them somewhere. Can you tell me again. I may support your cause as long as it's not dependant on DWR "deer counts".


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Not gonna argue that Mike!

But by GAWD they have probably the biggest Elk herd anywhere and they are still kickin Utahs but on the number of decent Bucks killed per year,WTF?

Colorados 4th season hunt has got to take a tole on big bucks in the Rut,we don't do that crap here,again WTF?

Even though I don't agree with that 4th season Rut Hunt colorado keeps producing a fair number of decent Bucks year after year,WTF?

Utah's management SUCKS!

Go ahead & tell Anus I said so!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[huntindad4]

I think the difference is water. If you look at western CO as opposed to UT there is no denying UT is more arid.

My experience with hunting where deer and elk co-exist is that if there is plenty of water then the deer herd does not seem to suffer as much but if they must compete for water the elk seem to push the deer out. I don't think there is any competition for feed.

JMHO and I AM NOT a biologist.

Bill

 

[dillon]

I agree that with elk increasing deer numbers have decreased, but since 1983 more houses than we would care to consider have been built on the winter range. The way I see it we have pretty much hit our carrying capacity in Utah for deer unless we make more habitat. Although we do a ton of seeding and PJ thinning, etc...we will not see major results from these efforts for about 20 years after they occur. I like that we have a growing elk population. I see that since 1993 our herds have been growing for deer and elk.

Utah has looked at the elk and deer competition and it is not as big as people think. Yes they eat some of the same stuff but for most of the year they don't share their range much. It is during the winter when they are forced to be together that they compete.

I don't hear anyone complaining about moose populations...they are at carrying capacity in Utah and kill the Willows in the river bottoms every year.

 

[travishunter3006]

In 1988 the issued about 285,000 deer tags ( killing about 85,000). thats the year tag numbers peaked. ever since then we have only decreased hunters in the field.

this is what we call a predator pit. no mater how many hunters we take out of the equation, the predators will kill until the numbers dwindle so far that the predators die off and then the numbers of ungulates can rebound.

 

[cannonball]

First off the State of Utah needs to be split the state in two parts. North of the Payson/Dixon line, houses built certainly are a factor, but South of that line encroachment of winter range is nill to none.

Second, those deer numbers shown by DWR are certainly not true counts, at least not in the Fishlake and surrounding areas. Deer numbers have been going down for the last thirty years. Now there are so many empty holes where deer used to be plentiful. Any counting they may have done they had to look for the pockets of deer which are fewer in number today. There are a lot of winter range areas, here in Central Utah, where the brouse is getting so tall and old beause of no deer to feed off the range.

Third, I really think those of you who don't accept that elk have an impact on the deer herd are in denial. Colorado DWR has finally accepted this theory.

One thing I'll repeat that I have said before. Twenty five years ago, give or take, a friend of mine who worked for the DWR told me this: while you guys are trying to establish three-point or better you're missing the bigger picture of the numbers of doe going down. The way they are being managed by the State (Utah), there won't be a deer herd left in 30 years. Well he was wrong, but not very far. This buck to doe ratio, is just a smoke screen. Lets talk total deer numbers. Lets talk predators. In fact, lets talk a change in management.

 

[2sneekee]

Kill the some elk if we want deer no brainer...

 

[stillhunterman]

LULU said: "But by GAWD they have probably the biggest Elk herd anywhere and they are still kickin Utahs but on the number of decent Bucks killed per year,WTF?

Colorados 4th season hunt has got to take a tole on big bucks in the Rut,we don't do that crap here,again WTF?

Even though I don't agree with that 4th season Rut Hunt colorado keeps producing a fair number of decent Bucks year after year,WTF?"

Geeze LULU, I know you are passionate about hunting, and for the most part for the general health of the deer herd. But come on, are you trying to compare colorado's management style/strategy to utah's? They kill more larger bucks cuz of several factors, and I think you know what they are. They manage for more, larger bucks at the detriment of the health of the herd, that's why they have lost hundreds of thousands over the past few years. They have what, tripple the viable habitat Utah does, not to mention double the number of deer. Do you even know how MANY hunters they have going after those larger bucks? And what some of the wait times are to draw?

Seriously, I can admire your passion, but dang...

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Still, I have to disagree to a point. Colorado cut out 90% of their tags in places after that last big winter kill and those tag numbers still aren't back to where they were before. If they were managing solely for the harvesting of big bucks without any concern for herd health they would have never lost that kind of revenue and cut that many tags. Utah does no such thing. As Anus Aude said "we haven't had a major change in deer management in 15 years". I'm no genious but I'm pretty sure we have had some hellacious winters that have taken their toll on deer numbers in the last 15 years. Where is the reduction in tags in those areas? Our big game herds are managed for one thing and one thing only and that is revenue. If the division thinks they are going to lose out on $$$ then you can bet that plan gets scrapped. That's exactly why the had 3 plans to chose from and exactly why they are leaning towards adopting the one with the least amount of tag cuts (even though that one is probably the one that will benefit the deer herd the least). As a wise friend mentioned to me, you have to manage each area in the state of Utah differently because of a wide variety of habitat. What works in Cache county won't work in Washington county. Just like you hunt deer different in the West desert than you do in the High Uintas. That's exactly why I am a big proponent for smaller MANAGABLE units. It makes total sense.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[stillhunterman]

Appreciate your response AWAB, and I agree with much of it. Big Game management is a tough thing to do in this day and age: There are a myriad of factors to consider from a wide range of influences, private, public, and political. Mule deer herds have been declining across the west for a long, long time. Until management strategies are accomplished for the health of the "herd", and NOT for the hunter, I believe it will continue to decline to the detriment of our hunting heritage.

I get a fowl taste in my mouth when I see the future of hunting whereby it is only accessable by the wealthy.

You know as well as I do that the UDWR has it hands tied for the most part with regards to big game management. It was not them who proposed these changes, but rather the WB (at the last minute mind you), who is hugely influence by Special Interest groups. I don't know how many biologically sound programs were recommended by the DWR that were completely shot down by the WB...

Next year there will be 2 openings on the Board. I suggest we do whatever we can to have someone appointed in those positions that have the biological background to at LEAST know what to consider as valid management practices. It would also be grand (but a pipe dream), to install some sort of system in the Board that would prohibit them from receiving "gifts" of any kind from outside influences...

 

[jimmedup]

1st time posting. I feel the elk out compete the deer on the winter range. not the summer. the elk are bigger and sronger and can hamdle the deep snow better. 2 yrs ago the gunnison herd was damn near killed off!! from the cold and deep snow. the elk seems to be ok.. management needs to decide what they want ,, big deer herds or big elk herds,, can't have both it seems

 

[bayside]

The sasquatch kill way more deer in Utah than Colorado because the sasquatch in Colorado are all herbivores. This is common knowledge, and until utah implements a sasquatch hunt (preferably late season) the herds here will never rebound. I don't mean to point out the obvious, but somebody has to..

In all seriousness. I agree with Tony. The area that I use to hunt during general season has continued to decline as the numbers of elk have increased. There were even cattle in there when the deer were strong, so I don't think they really had the same affect. I don't know why, but I believe as well that you can't have a strong elk, and deer herd in the same area. Look at the San Juan. As the elk have increased exponentially, the deer herd has decreased. Yeah I know there's still good bucks down there, but not at all what it use to be.

 

[lostinOregon]

I know a ranch family that has been on the same ranch in Colorado since 1928. They had no elk in 1928 and if you saw one it was a big deal. They had anywhere from 500 to 1000 muleys on the ranch during the year. That now has changed drastically, they have a resident elk herd of about 400 and very, very few mule deer. Probably around 50. If the elk are using a field the deer won't.

Comparing Colorado and Utah for deer management is crazy. To compare Colorado and Utah you have to use the LE deer units in Utah and compare them to colorado units, not the general Utah units. There was also a comment about the big winter kill in Colorado and it hasn't rebounded, hell it has been 2 years, it will take a few more than that.

Elk are a bigger factor than most of you want to admit, Tony is on the right track.

Rich

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

"To compare Colorado and Utah you have to use the LE deer units in Utah and compare them to colorado units, not the general Utah units."

That's the whole point! We don't compare to Colorado. If we did we would have smaller units. We have a few LE areas in Utah that get managed (not saying managed well) and the rest are open to massive onslaught of hunters from August through October. Thanks for making that point.

"There was also a comment about the big winter kill in Colorado and it hasn't rebounded, hell it has been 2 years, it will take a few more than that."

You are exactly right. Thus the reason Colorado cut tags significantly in those areas and still haven't raised the tags to remotely close to what they were. Utah has not ever, nor would they ever, do that. Thanks for helping that point out too.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[dryflyelk]

Tony,

As has been mentioned here several times, I'd like to hear what you propose. You're pointing all the fingers at the elk and asking for a change. What do you want? Whats the answer in your opinion?

More elk mean more elk hunters. Do you have the numbers for how many elk were killed during the same years? People like hunting elk, too. A more meaningful number would be the aggregate number of big game hunters in the field per year, elk and deer. While deer hunters are going down, elk hunters are going up. Is that a bad thing? That depends on your perspective, I guess.

If you've posted your ideas somewhere, let's see 'em.

 

[fishon]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-10 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]All I have said about elk is why doesn't the state of Utah fund a study to see if the elk are effecting the deer and if so, how?

We can put the thought to rest if there was a study done.

And my ideas are not going to be posted here for you all to bash and make fun of and take personal shots at me over. That is all this site does.

No, my ideas are going to the people that make the difference in a manner that will make a difference. SO go ahead and take your shots at me for that but I learned a long long time ago that most of you don't want answers you only want arguments.

Have a great Holiday season.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com

 

[Rackster]

Contrary to much belief by these posts on this thread. Tony does have a point. Is it the only factor affecting deer herds? No. But I will say this, I have been in meetings in Colorado when population objectives for deer are being made and several biologists in Colorado agreed that elk do displace and out compete deer, especially on winter range. Colorado, as Utah, does not have near the amount of muleys as it once did. I have been in several meetings where the decision was to lower the deer population objectives, because the general feeling was that the deer population in that particular unit was never going to bounce back to what it was. However, the elk population in the unit or units had increased. The general feeling was that the expanding elk herd was having an effect to some degree on the decreasing deer herd. There is much evidence out there to support it as a factor in some units.

Again, is it the only factor? NO, but it is a factor in some units. As most of us would agree, there are an array of factors that affect deer populations and increasing a deer population is much harder than many would think.