Utah Hunters - Please Read - Important

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Founder Since 1999
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Folks,

I met with Tony Abbott a couple days ago and he asked me to bring this meeting to the attention of as many Utah hunters as possible. I think it is important and so here it is.

As you all know, Utah mule deer debates, ideas, and proposals have flooded the site. Lots and lots of people are fired up and worried about the future.

So, we're having a meeting on Tuesday, November 30th. There's going to be a few speakers early in the meeting, then it'll be opened up to questions and comments.

I think we need to show up in full force and let the UDWR know that mule deer is very important and that we expect them to put mule deer at the top of their "To Do" list.

To attend, you must register (LINK BELOW). Please post a reply here to this thread if you plan to attend. Also, text, email, call and/or PM your friends and family who also care about mule deer. Let's get the 600 seats filled.

AND, what do you all think about this meeting? Will it let the UDWR know that we're serious about mule deer needing to be at the top of the list?

[font size=+1]DETAILS[/font]

Plan to attend 1320 KFAN?s Special Edition of ?Inside the Outdoors? on Tuesday, November 30th, to hear about current and proposed mule deer herd management issues and proposed changes to the deer hunting season in the coming year. Many perspectives will be presented and discussed by guest speakers invited from Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, Utah Wildlife Board, Elected State Representatives, Sportsmen for Wildlife and the Mule Deer Foundation Leadership. This forum will also allow the public to express their opinions and ask questions of panel members. The Jordan Commons Megaplex Theatre has donated a large auditorium to help sponsor this special event. Registration is free, but seating is limited to the first 600 registrations, so please register now for your opportunity to listen and be heard on this important Utah Wildlife issue. This special edition of ?Inside the outdoors? will be a live broadcast hosted by Steve Brown and Tony Abbott.

Date: Tuesday, November 30th
5:00 PM - Doors open
5:30 PM - Presentation about condition of mule deer herd
6-7 PM - Guest Panel Members give statements (?Inside the Outdoor? radio program begins)
7-9 PM - Comments and Questions by attendees
LOCATION: Megaplex Theatre
Jordan Commons in Sandy
9400 S State St. Sandy, Utah


[font size=+1 color=darkred]CLICK HERE to Register[/font]



Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Count me in. I will be there.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Brian

Thanks for posting this. The Racs may not listen to us but this meeting your voice will be heard and carried tot he right people who make decisions.

Make sure you get registered as the place will fill up fast.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
I am signed up and will be sending the link to a bunch of others.
Thanks Tony

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 
I'm there

Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
 
I listened to the original one they did on 1320 a week or so ago. This must be more of the same pushing option 1 agenda.
 
As a NR with 13 bonus pts., I too have a stake that the
UDWR properly manage the state's deer herds. I applaud
all here at MM who will be attending and participating
in this crucial gathering of wildlife experts and con-
cerned sportsmen.
Through such interchanges, hopefully a management plan
that is sound biologically and sustainable can be agreed
upon and successfully implemented for the ultimate benefit
of the state's deer herds.
I will be there in spirit to support all of you who have
shown in all your postings here at MM a true concern for
your state's deer herds.

ELDORADO
 
Founder,
Will all aspects be represented? Or it this just platform for Tony to gather his supports and pretend it is the vast majority because he says so. Are the speakers going to only be Option 1 guys because that is what Tony and yourself are supporting? I am not trying to be an ass I would just like to really know? If this is to represent a sportsmen voice please assure that all voice are represented.

Thanks,
Cody

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
I'm for option 1???

I honestly don't know what Tony's opinion is for sure, but I'm pretty sure he and I don't see eye to eye. I know for sure he does not like 3-point or better units....I think they're worth another try. I believe he thinks we have room to grow more deer, I'm not so convinced of that. Tony places far more blame I think on elk, while I place more blame on people for the decline of mule deer.

I have to admit, I haven't read through the options all that closely. Been busy hunting and working, but I personally would like to see no tag cuts or very small ones. I believe the shorter seasons will help a lot with buck quality.
If that's option 1, then you're right. If not, you're wrong....

I met with Tony and my impression is that he is not going to try and steal the show.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I read through the options real quick, and I'm for "none of the above", but if we have to have one of the 3, I like option 3 for now. I think there are things that can be done before tag cuts.

Of course, as long as us Lifetime License holders get a deer tag every year, then I want to see them cut tags to just 5,000 per year. LOL, just kidding.
I wonder how that will work for lifetime license holders? I assume we will get a tag every year, right? It's already been paid for....

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder,
My bad on assuming. Still would like to know who is speaking and what they suppport?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Is this going to be covered on the radio station? I would love to go but I don't know if I can. I would still like to here it.

What if we did either sex, like Montana, then the guys that are crying cause they just want to get a deer will still have their chance while the 2 point bucks that would have died will live until the next guy whacks him. lol

Thanks Jason
 
Cody

Take your panties out of a wad and don't assume I am supporting option 1, because if you would pay attention to ANYTHING I have said you would know I support ZERO tags cut.

If you would spend more time reading and researching and less time trying to bust my balls when you have no clue then you might not seem so ignorant.

Jim Karpowitz the the DWr director has been invited
Don Peay of SFW has been invited
Miles Moretti of MDf has been invited
The Utah Wildlife board has been invited
And a non affiliated Wildlife Big Game biologist has been invited.

I WILL NOT BE ON THE PANEL.

Do you understand? And you don't listen tot he radio very well if you think I am supporting option 1. I AM SUPPORTING ZERO TAGS CUT.

Anything else I can clarify for you so you have your facts straight.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
You must not of been listening to 1320 because we never have and never will support option 1. Get your facts straight before you make yourself look ignorant.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
I am in! I have only been in Utah 6 months but have lived and participated in Nevadas Mule Deer for over 10 years. I want to go to learn more about these options so I can make an educated vote.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/nv_hunter/nevadaanimatedhelmetwd2.gif[/IMG]
 
Im sorry but isnt this what the racs were set up for?

I know ya'll want to have your say, but it kinda feels like because the racs voted the way they did ya'll wanted to have a special meeting in the northern region were its easy to get there if you live there but kinda tuff if you live 4 1/2 hours away. Besides I think thats why they have racs in different parts of the state so everyone gets a say right.

Sorry if i affended some of you but thats my 2 cents.

The is more to the state than from spanish fork north to Idaho.
 
Tony I don't know what the feud is between you and Cody and I agree with most of what you have to say. I rather think it is the elk that is the big problem also. The trouble is we really don't know and need to find out. I am in favor of option 2, for the attention that they will receive if nothing else. I really believe the Division has used excuses and the lazy way of operating over these last 25 years. Maybe this way we will find out why we are losing all of our does. I'm not a fan of the buck to doe ratio either, unless of course we get way low on the ratio, but at this point we need real attention on the deer herd that we were not getting with the six unit management plan.
 
Zero tag cuts is what should happen. We have penty of limited entry areas in this state for you to kill a monster buck. I wonder how many of you have elk points instead of deer?? I think it would be interesting to see how many tears are falling from each side. Those that are putting in for LE Deer vs LE Elk. Then we have those that have drawn a tag and see there odds of getting a deer tag are slim. I would really like to see this study.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-10 AT 04:15AM (MST)[p]Tony,
My panties were not in a wad. I just asked who was speaking. I know you will get plenty of time to speak on your radio show. No I don't listen to your show or 1320 much at all, does not come in real well in Cache Valley.

If asking tough questions and presenting a different opion feels like ball busting then yes I guess I'm guilty of that.

BTW thanks for the list of speakers. That answered my question perfectly! Good panel that should bring up some good points.

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Can I bring some popcorn and beer and a round by round scorecard? lol

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MD2.jpg


If I really thought it would do any good I would be there. For many years I attended most all the wildlife meetings for deer, elk and bear. As time passed, they set up the RAC's which at the time, I thought was a good move. But they were soon infiltrated and hand picked by the same power that basically hand picks the Wildlife Board, and what is basically said by the public falls on deaf ears.

I am 70 yards old and lived through the mule deer hay days. I spent many years hunting the Bookcliff?s before it was closed down. The year previous to when the Bookcliffs closed, I hunted there and saw more mountain lions (2) than I saw four point bucks (1).

I was born and raised in Southwest Wyoming, which at the time, was loaded with mule deer, much like Utah. In those days there were very few bears, next to no coyotes, and very, very few lions and not an elk in the area. It was a poor morning?s hunt to see less than 50-70 buck deer and many of those were great bucks. Does and fawns were everywhere.

Now we have bear, lions, coyotes, and lots of elk, and very few deer. We also have far less good habitat, especially here in Utah. But even in the areas where habitat is not the main problem, (like the Elk Ridge area) the mule deer herd continues to struggle. Why?

I think it is a combination of many factors, and one such influence, that many discount, espically in that area and like areas. is the negative impact placed upon the deer herd by the ever increasing number of elk. I think the San Juan is a great example of that, as it has about as good of deer habitat as exists and excellent winter range.

One other huge factor, that most don't want to accept, is the hunter. Many here won't acknowledge the fact, that even with less hunters, and less deer, we have been able to maintain the about the same kill rate, Humans are far better predators these days than they were in the days of the 30/30 or the old recurve.

Good rifles, with advanced scopes, range finders, shooting sticks, better optics, better bows, in line muzzleloaders all have helped keep the kill numbers reasonably steady while the deer herd continues to dwindle. It's time we all take a close look at the part of the equation, that we as hunters play.

Roads and four wheeler access, makes what once was a long walk, to a great area, now a simple ride to nowhere. Shed hunters and snowmobiles pressure wintering herds.

Because of this, I personally think we need to cut tags in half, and double the permit fee. Or we need to go to a state wide limited entry system. Now is the time to do it, as its going to happen anyway, because in just a matter of a few years, the lack of deer will force it to happen. Why not bite the bullet now? The days of getting a deer permit every year in Utah are numbered. MARK MY WORDS!!!

In every case, where hunting is limited, the buck numbers respond rapidly. Each and every one of us, needs to give up a lot and if we do, in the long run, we and our deer herd will be far better off.

If we don't cut hunter numbers drastically, and in some areas, elk numbers, along with all the other stuff we KNOW we need to be doing, I really don't see much hope for the future.

Within 10 years there will not be such a thing as a general deer permit in Utah, so why don't we realize this now and do the right thing for once, as in the long run, it will help the herds and the hunter.

If Utah were to cut the tags in half this very year (I know they won't) and double the permit fee, (Can you hear the outcry?) they would sell every single permit and thus the money part would not be an issue, at least from the standpoint of the Divison.

Anyway I won't be to the meeting, as I can already see the writing on the wall. The Big Game Board will do just like they have for years, and that is basically nothing that will really help Utah?s struggling deer herds.

And hunters aren't ready to make the sacrifice either. A good example of where we are today, can be seen by looking back at what happened in the Bookcliffs, as its struggling buck population dwindled down. It was suggested years before its closing, that it be made a limited entry unit, but hunters outrage vetoed such a thing, until it was forced into closure and then re opened as a limited entry area. I see most regions in the state following the same suit.

Have a good one. BB
 
Amen buglinbilly!!!!

I nominate you to take anis aoude's job. Impliment all those ideas and we'd all be better off!

Very, Very well said!
 
This is nothing like a rac meeting. This is not DWR operated or ran. The DWR might chose to not show up for all we know. MDF might not come either.

I believe Don and SFW will be present because they are the ONLY ones that get involved with everything even if they are hated by half the public.

My point is that whoever shows up will show that they are at least concerned enough with the deer herds to participate in a non directed DWR meeting. They will be willing to answer questions and give their 2 cents.

This meeting has the chance to be a changing moment for Utah's deer herd.

None of you even believe half of what the DWR trys to sell you about deer populations and buck to doe ratios.

Lets take a moment to gather information, voice concerns and opinions, get clarification from the powers that be and then go to the wildlife board and be herd by the decision makers.

That is all I am asking.



Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
This thread is exactly why we can't fix the deer herd NOBODY is willing to give up their way of hunting!
So lets sit back and watch it all go down the toilet, and not try because we don't think it will matter.
I went to the R.A.C. Meeting and watched them just vote on what they wanted,like they are the only ones who hunt and the only ones who are effected by what they vote on. Why don't we get off our asses and either try and make a difference by going to the meeting or email the wildlife board members your choice and hope it counts? I guess we could all watch the trend that is happening take place right before our eyes and it will become a rich mans sport!
If you have enough money you can do what you want...LOOK AT ANTELOPE ISLAND!!!!!
 
Great points and that is all I have been trying to make. Lets try something that we have not and lets see what happens. But cutting hunters will solve NO DEER HERD ISSUES.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
"But cutting hunters will solve NO DEER HERD ISSUES."
Tony Abbott

Tony I happen to think you and the people in your camp are dead wrong who think that.

I believe we need to cut numbers in half for at least a few years and see what happens. There are many issues confronting Utah's mule deer troubles, and I think one of them, at this time, is the fact that there are too many hunters, with too many good weapons, be it bows, muzzleloaders or rifles.

If we cut the hunters in half, double the permit fee, tags will still sell out and we can at least maintain the revenue during this trying period of time.

I understand this option would not be popular, but let me use an analogy to help make my point. Let's say we are out hunting mule deer in a desolate area and a rock puts a hole in our oil pan and we loose all but one quart of oil by the time we discover what's happened and get it plugged. Let's also say we don't have any extra oil so our only option is to drive back to town some 50 miles to get oil.

The area we are hunting is very steep with miles of ups and downs to get out and even some four wheel engagement will be require to get back to town.

Which do you think is the better option under these conditions? Does one drive back the way they normally drive, or does one go slower and use caution until we can get back to town and get the oil pan repaired and the proper amount of oil back in the oil pan?

My option would be to take it very easy, putting the least amount of stress on the engine and being supper careful until I knew the problem was resolved.

I believe the same option would be best with our deer herds at this time, that of being very careful and not pressuring our herds at this critical juncture.

Do I think you or many others understand this or agree? No I don't. But if we don't do something soon, then the consequences will be far more reaching than cutting half the tags until those in charge can get a real handle on what's? happening.

What I think they are doing and what I think will be done, is much like staying inside a crashing airplane so long, that when we do decide to bail out, we have not given enough time for our chute to open. Let's not make that mistake with our deer herds.

At this point I think we need to error on the side caution!

Have a good one. BB
 
Come on, there has got to be more people on this site who can attend.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I'm betting that a lot attended RAC meetings and don't feel another meeting is warranted?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-10 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-10 AT 11:34?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-10 AT 11:31?AM (MST)

I see nothing wrong with this meeting going on. I'm a member of the Central RAC and I did my best to ask question of Anis that would help me understand their thinking. I know that the deer management options won't increase deer herd sizes-- just buck numbers. The part of the discussion I had with Anis at the RAC meeting that continues to make me wonder about the direction of mule deer management is, when I ask Anis about the herd numbers and the population objectives and whether he believed we are at carrying capacity, he said- We are at carrying capacity! I then ask him about the southern part of the state and he said- The problem in southern Utah isn't winter range, its summer range capacity.
Now, if he is convinced that we are at carrying capacity, the ONLY thing we can do is to manage buck numbers and hunter numbers. My question is then-- do they consider carrying capacity as only the availability of browse-- or is predator kill, road kill,disease etc that is considered in the equation that results in the true Carrying Capacity of any given unit.
If we truly are at carrying capacity, then most of you are spitting in the wind, when you make suggestions that you think would make the herds bigger and healthier. I personally do not believe we are at carrying capacity on most units. I believe that there are some practices that are in place now that didn't happen 30 years ago--.
A couple of examples-- We start hunting deer in August and it doesn't end until November. We allow elk hunting (on the same winter ranges that the deer have to utilize) through the end of January. I think that we allow too much pressure and too long into the winter season. The deer may not being hunted in Daecember or January but they don't know that, they only know that there is a predator shooting and walking into their habitat and they go into predator avoidance mode, which causes them to burn precious fat reserves and puts them in a less favorable position to survive what mother nature has in store for them.
I will be listening to the KFAN discussion and I would hope someone there will get a definitive answer from the Division as to whether their stance is that we are at carrying capacity now. Until we know the anwer to that, the discussion of option 1 or option 2 or any option at all, doesn't much matter.
 
Well, I'm here at the meeting, where are you?? LOL I really thought a few more would show up. I'm bummed with you guys who could have, but didn't.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I have to agree. All the keyboard biologists and polititions on here and only a few show up? Hard to solidify all your thoughts if you cant stand up and express them while you had the chance.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/nv_hunter/nevadaanimatedhelmetwd2.gif[/IMG]
 

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