Slaughter the Predators?

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smiths10

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-10 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]In the latest Utah Regional Advisory meeting about the proposed management for the Mule Deer in deer; The public had an opportunity to voice there opinions about the changes and options for Utah Deer Hunting. One of the public visitors (lets call him "Glamor Cowboy") Suggests that we slaughter all the Cougars and Bears out of Utah. Yes, it's a logical idea to delete the competition, however is the word 'slaughter' necessary?
The biggest killer is NOT the predators. It's the weather and lack of habitat. Colorado has more than twice the deer population than Utah and with less hunters. They also perform the same deer management regulation as Utah. Their weather is nearly identical; so why such a big difference in the heard population? The answer is not the predators, it's simply habitat. Utah is a desert, Brigham Young wasn't thinking about deer when shouting "This is the place!"
Let's face it: None of the 3 options are really going to work permanently. We can't compare ourselves to Colorado. Killing predators will help, but using the word "slaughter" will only stimulate the animal right's protesters in court and Utah we'll end up like the State of California. God Help Us.

Anyone agree, disagree, suggestions?
BTW Glamor Cowboy: I'm pro-predator harvesting.
 
yes slaughter is poor choice in words, but we have had the same weather condition in 100 years, always a desert, we have had more deer. Again a little history, back in the 50's we had little to no deer, what did we have, lots of predators. Poison was used to eliminate predators. What happened after this, predators were eliminated andl with in 10 years in the mid to late 60's there was deer everywhere. What has happened since, well coyotes gradually came back, lions became more abundant, and now we have bear everywhere as well, some say bear have no impact on deer, but they do, they kill fawns, watched it myself, and have seen lots of hoofs in bear scat. Anyhow history is repeating itself, we will blame habitat all we want but we still have plenty down here in southeast utah, so until we start putting a little more blame on predators and eliminate more than we are we are going to look like the 50's again soon.
 
"Colorado has more than twice the deer population than Utah with less hunters"

So maybe there is a something to this limiting buck and doe harvest thing. ehh ehh.

"they also perform the same deer management regulation as Utah"

Did I hear that correctly?

Theres nothing about Colorado deer management that even remotely resembles Utahs deer management! Their buck/doe ratio on average is 25-30 bucks per hundred does and in lots of units even higher. They micro-manage Utah does not. They're not afraid to severly limit tags when it calls for it. Not just limit the days afeild and hope people simply cant find a deer in the alloted time period.

I will agree Colorado does have some awsome summer range though.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-10 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]If we slaughter all the bears, lions, coyotes etc. We wont have any bears, lions or coyotes to hunt. Chasing cats and calling coyotes is just as fun as chasing deer. I realize the herd numbers are down and predators do contribute. Reguardless slaughtering the predators will only lead to no predators to hunt. However overgrazing beef and mountain maggots on the deer's winter range is far harder on the number of deer than a few predators.
 
First of all there is no way to "slaughter the predators" Trappers can't even help, poison is against the law, and coyotes are so freakin smart now they completely evade hunters, cougars are esteamed as trophy animals and managed as such. Predators are the biggest reason for our states current decline in deer populations.
I just don't see a way to even control predators. I am a 4th generation trapper, my family have in past years made a living off trapping. My great grandpa trapped for extra money, my grandpa was a government trapper and made a living of it. And my father was well known as one of the states best bobcat trappers who trapped full time from oct-mar Now trappers can't be as effective. With a 48 hr. Trap check law, it makes it impossible to trap feasably. Not to mention a guy can only obtain 3 cat tags. Trappers while trapping cats, help control all predators, while checking a line of traps we can always catch a bunch of coyotes.
I saw they drew 6 cougar tags for the henry mt. Unit Wow........ That's a good idea..... Let's try and raise trophy cougar and trophy deer on the same range. I am not against having trophy class cougars In this state, however in areas such as Sanjuan desert area... We should encourage controling the cougar way better. And the Henry mts. Should not have a cougar old enough on it to be concidered a trophy.
So call me crazy but utah's deer population would benefit so much more if we were to manage these predators better........
 
Boy i'd like to see the stats to back that claim.

"Overgrazing beef and mountain maggots" are the only reason we have the amount of deer we currently have.

Who do you think helped kill off the predators and improved the range in the first place?
 
Excellent! Completely agree predator hunting as it is beneficial, is also fun to other. Increase a bounty and make it easier to obtain a cougar tag.
I couldn't agree more about the coyotes getting smarter, I've got them trained to take off when they hear my Jack-distress call. I had no idea about the Henry MTs issue with cougars, that is disconcerting.
 
I agree Brutus. I know the sheep-men kill a ton of predators. And there were way more sheep and beef on the range 30 yrs ago.
 
I cant imagine that a single one of you have a clue of the real lion situation in utah. What state thinks that it is ok to have an average harvest of a 2.5 year old female? thats the stats for utah lions. Lets wake up and see the situation for what it is, its not the lions, its not the bears, it may be partially the coyotes, buts its really overall horrible management of a resource. OVER HARVEST, DESTRUCTION OF WINTER RANGE, ROADKILL, ELK, WINTER KILL. The fish and game has used lions and predators as a scape goat and whipping boy for far to long. GET EDUCATED
 
and the wolves are coming with the protection of the endangered species act. You have seen nothing yet.
 
Look Goshawk...... Explain to me how many road kills happen on the deep creek mt. Range? What about the the Henry mts. I bet there isn't 5 deer a year killed on these two units, by vehicles. Yet it's the road that kills?
I spend a lot of time on the Sanjuan unit, just overlooking the sanjuan river. It use to be a trophy deer area...... Until the cougar moved in. I don't know too many hounds-men who would turn dogs loose on a lion where they would not see there dogs again, the cliffs are horrible. So that cougar just keeps the local deer herd trimmed right down.
I just think the state should draw lines where they want trophy deer, and trophy lions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-10 AT 11:56PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-10 AT 11:47?PM (MST)

"Brutas" If you would like to see the stats or the effects of overgrazing just look it up. Overgrazing causes loss of habitat for deer. Therefore a range that has been overgrazed cannot sustain large numbers of deer thus leading to starvation and unfavorable numbers of deer. I am not saying that overgrazing is the #1 or even #2 reason for the decline in our herd's. Only saying that with all of the elements combined like disease, drought, starvation, vehichle mortality, winter kill, loss of habitat due to human encroachment, loss of habitat due to overgrazing, hunters, predators, poachers etc. That predators are only a small peice of the pie. To say we need to "slaughter all of our predators" is ignorant as hell. they are a natural and important part of a healthy and balanced ecosystem.
Furthermore predator's are just as important to the hunting community as mule deer.

"buckwreck" The cougar never "moved in" it has always been there. The reason for the decline on the sanjuan in my humble opinion is due to the fact it is managed for elk. A more dominate specie that the mule deer simply cannot compete with.
 
That is seriously pushing it. Deer are 99% more important to the hunting community than the 1% of you that chase with dogs. I would bet 96% of hunters could care less if you have big toms to chase.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-10 AT 00:08AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-10 AT 00:06?AM (MST)

Mj you are talking semantics. But i will humor you. Your saying 96% of hunter's could care less to take theire kids out coyote hunting or to ever harvest a trophy mountain lion or black bear?. If that is true well then I stand corrected.
 
Dleonard, unlike you I have history by my side. like I said I am a 4th generation trapper. My dad and his brothers explored the Sanjuan during the urainium boom, they became familiar with it and then they started trapping it. They were pioneers to that country, helping establish the area with roads. During that time rarely did they see cougars. In fact cougars compete with bobcats for habbitat, and kick them out. There were loads of bobcats then, which sugests there were low cougar populations. As far as elk being dominant, yeah they have an advantage I can see your point. However; Sanjuan is the biggest unit in the state, the elk don't control it all. In the desert area overlooking the Sanjuan river is far from elk country, that is some of the area my dad trapped. I'm telling you yes this cougar did move in. My dad did not use to see them, not here or much of the whole unit he's still alive to attest this. And it was legal then take cougar by trap, hence you could control these tretcherous desert cliff surrounded areas. I'm telling you there is no way you could "chase cats" with hounds there.
 
Sorry fellas I would love to stay and chat, but I am headed down south this morning to get a cow elk for meat. Hope you all have a good day, I can't wait to see what ya post.
 
"we'll end up like California, God help us"

WTF Utard?

1-27.jpg
 
they are a natural and importent part of a healthy and balanced ecosystem, hell how many times did we hear that a bout wolves. dleonard 4 you been sneaking over to them peta meeting......
 
Thats the first thing I thought of was the wolf. I'll bet their fun to hunt too ayy dlenard. The sheep men and cattle men are more regulated than any other person using public land! I hunt dogs just as much as the next guy, but the difference is i'm a little more comfortable with my technique to know i'll always be able to find a coyote no matter how many they kill.

Why would i look it up i already know the answer. Your the one making accusations not me.BACK IT UP OR SHUT UP! Pedators are the #1 loss of fawn recruitment. No predators=no stress and not much loss.end of story. You can have all the habitat projects you want, the only difference is coyotes will be eaten fatter fawns. Utah wont end up like california. Are debate is wipe out the predator or keep huntin em the way we do now. Not huntin or not.
 
Here's a question (Probably for dleonard more than anybody) What are the dominant predators in our ecosystem...??? Hmmm...???

HUMANS...!!!

WE are the dominant predators- WE can regulate the different species' herds. WE don't need wolves, lions, bears or coyotes to help us with deer and elk herd management. Counting humans- there are too many predators for our deer herd in Utah. Eliminating other predators is a start- though I agree it won't fix our dwindling herds...

We all need to start hunting predators more- and they should be more easily hunted IMO. I've stated it in other forums before- We need to offer a $2 lion tag to EVERY deer and elk tag in the state, $5 for both bear and lion. Mandatory harvest reporting for these tags. Do it 1 year and see what happens... See how much revenue it brings in, see how many predators are killed... Let's just see. I know some other states do this kind of thing. On an elk hunt in Oregon, my friend was able to buy a bear tag for an extra $5 with his elk tag...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
They made it even easier here in NV for people to get a lion tag. You can buy one when you apply online for your deer and elk tags. $29, and TONS of tags get sold (4000 or so last season - 09/10). They have been OTC, harvest objective for many years now. We can hunt 24/7/365. Two tags per year, statewide.

And guess what - - - -

There hasn't been a noticable increase in lion harvest!!!

Maybe a few (less than 10) get harvested each year by people other than with hounds. One couple got one turkey hunting one spring. Every once in a while, one my get whacked by a caller, or a chukar hunter bumps into one and gets afraid that it will hurt his precious dogs.

Bottom line is - increasing tags, and letting everyone have at it, will have very little effect on overall lion harvest.

The only effective way to get it done is with hounds, and people either don't have/want to spend the money for a hunt, or don't want to deal with the hassle of owning hounds.

I just looked at the Utah harvest last night because I was bored. I was amazed at how many females/young toms were being killed. Very few lions over 6 years old. High percentage of females. That tells me that the lion population is very low, and only young lions are able to do the breeding anyway. With a high percentage of female lions being killed, it slows the population growth anyway.

Later,

Marcial
 
How do you kill cougars without dogs or traps? Do they really respond to fawn distress calls like coyotes?

Are Bobcats a threat to the deer population?
 
I am all for controlling predators. I know I do my part. I kill atleast 20 or more coyotes every year. However I have hunted in southern utah and northern utah my whole short life and have always seen plenty of deer and plenty of big bucks including this year. I have even seen a few lions some bobcats and a ton coyotes yet the deer are still there. Regaurdless there are many different factors why mule deer die. And every region is different. But to say Predators are the main problem statewide is retarded. If there is a certain region where lions or any other predator's are thinning the population of deer. Then I agree the predators need to be reduced in that region. But I still think most of the bitchin about predators killing all the deer in the state Is really just a bunch $#!ty hunters that dont know how to find a big buck.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-10 AT 03:07PM (MST)[p]Here is a small article that might help a couple small minded folks understand ther is a little more to the decline in mule deer than just predators.
Mule Deer in the West Across the West, mule deer numbers have declined since the "good old days" of the 1950's and 60's. Mule deer populations are declining for a variety of reasons, including drought, habitat losses, predators, changes in hunting techniques, and access - just to name a few. Habitat: Adequate supplies of food, water, shelter, and space are the building blocks needed to support healthy mule deer populations. The quality and quantity of habitat across the West has declined because of several factors including fire, drought, noxious weeds, and development. Fire: Fire can be either "good" or "bad" for mule deer. The lack of fire in forested ecosystems has decreased important habitats such as aspen and shrub communities. Mule deer thrive on the browse, forbs and grasses that flourish after a fire or other natural disturbance. The tender, nutritious plants are easy to digest - especially for fawns going into their first winter or adults attempting to put on fat. By actively fighting fires, land managers have inadvertently reduced the food and shelter available for mule deer. Trees now shade out grasses, shrubs, and forbs. Junipers have encroached into critical fawning and winter ranges. Important aspen stands that provide forage, cover, and fawning habitat are disappearing. Fire in many winter ranges, however, has reduced the amount of shrubs needed for food during the winter and increased the amount of weeds. Most invasive weeds do not make good mule deer habitat. Weeds: Cheatgrass, knapweed, thistle, and other invasive weeds crowd out shrubs, forbs and grasses needed to support healthy mule deer populations. Weeds can also increase the frequency and intensity of fires, further reducing the food and shelter available to mule deer and other native wildlife. The bottom line is less food and less cover means fewer mule deer. Development: Mule deer range has been reduced by human activity, pets, livestock, trains, and automobiles. Roads and railroads cut through traditional migration corridors and winter range. As homes, golf courses, streets, and parking lots move into these critical areas, mule deer are pushed into marginal habitat. This is especially difficult on mule deer during severe winters. Predators: Predators, such as coyotes, mountain lions, wolves, bobcats and black bear, prey on mule deer. The effect of predators on total mule deer numbers varies from year to year. Changes in habitat, weather patterns, and other prey species all affect how much predators affect mule deer populations. Competition: In some areas, elk are thriving where mule deer are declining. Elk are bigger, stronger, and able to survive more severe weather than deer. Changes in the type of grass and shrubs available may favor elk over mule deer. In other locations, there is direct competition between deer and elk for critical winter range. Weather: Precipitation influences mule deer - and wildlife populations in general, more than any other factor. The amount and timing of precipitation affects plant growth, fire frequency and the quality of habitat. More significantly, it influences the most important factor causing mule deer mortality - snow and cold temperatures. Deer need extra energy to move in deep snow and to maintain core body heat in cold temperatures. Fat reserves, built up during summer and fall months, provide this extra energy. This is especially critical for fawns. Research shows that larger fawns are more likely to survive the winter. (See chart.) The quality and quantity of habitat directly influences how effective mule deer are in putting on fat in the spring and summer. Survival 40 60 80 100 62 67 72 77 82 Weight Chance of Surviving the Winter
 
Theres has been at least 10 times the money spent on habitat than predator control since 2000 and numbers keep shrinking. Lets focus a little more on predators and see if that helps.

Also stress directly effects the weight and health of a deer going into and during winter. Large predator populations put a ton of stress on deer.

Also who wrote it? All points made are important but, you cant deny the use of poison to control predators and deer populations booming at the same time. Not a cooinsidence.

But then again maybe i'm small minded.
 
Like i said i am all for predator control. I just think there is more to it. I also think that the numbers of predators and deer fluxuate in cycles. like coyotes and rabbits. over the course of a decade or so you will have a boom in the number of deer followed by a boom of predators followed by a decline in deer followed by a decline in predators followed by an increase in deer and so on. with that in mind you still have to contribute all the other elements including Disease, drought,winter kill, fire and loss of habitat all play a part. since the 60's we have had a tremendous growth of human encroachment highways built traveling right through there migration coridors. residential and industrial developements on deers winter ranges etc.. Bountiful is a prime example. However even with all that factored in. it is not all doom and gloom there are still plenty of deer to reproduce and there are still monster bucks running around. you just have to know how to find them.
 
Great pics and really great buck!

There is always going to be good bucks and coyotes no matter how low deer numbers get but, you'll never get a handle on coyotes by callin em. You are right about one thing if keep we goin the way were goin we'll have alot less coyotes eventually cause there wont be any deer to eat!

Guess thats the cycle of life huh?

I'd rather keep coyotes in check and let the hunters take care of the deer population.

PS I'm checkin the Chuckarama for deer next year if yer killin bucks like that.
 
Ya know I get sick of hearing about the lions killing all the deer...they should make tags available. Heck boys up till this year almost all of Utah was over the counter lion tags with many of the harvest objective areas never being met. There are still multiple units that are harvest objective or split units that turn to harvest objective in March. Buy a tag and go hunt em down. After you spend 100's of dollars on gas and grub and you still end up empty handed you'll say " damn the lion population looks like our deer herd :) " I want more deer too. Lions are getting hungry :) No now on a serious note: I wish all of you would buy a over the counter lion tag and go get er. Avintaquin has been a lion slaughter for years now as the dwr planted sheep there.....the Ute Tribe paid their people bounty on the lions killed which included females and kittens. Go check out the deer herd there???????????? What gives? There's not enough lions there for anything....the sheep left....where's the deer? I'm not saying that predators don't kill deer as they do. Coyotes are your number 1 predator concern. There's no season and no license fee but I seldom see yote hunters when I'm lion hunting????? There are a few die hards. Before the deer herds come back you need to find the real reason they're gone and for some reason few want to admit it? Its easy to point the blame, but this spring spend some time on the mtn., and along the roads. Deer/elk season use to end in Oct. Now we hunt deer late into Nov. and hunt cow elk sometimes into Jan. Don't you think with all the added pressure, does aren't being bred, animals are pushed back into deeper snow for retreat. Nov. and Dec. are very valuable months for deer to add some fat....they cannot be pressured from Aug. till Dec. and get bred, get any fat built up, and when they are pushed into the back country in the deep snow....its a feast for the yotes, and yes its sure easier for the lions that are left. I've invited before....come spend some time this winter in Northeastern Utah and we'll spend some money on gas and just see what your opinion is next spring :)
 
The problem with killing coyotes. Is the fact the more coyotes you kill the bigger the liter's they have. Also they usually have a breeding hiarchy in each pack. with only one alpha male and one breeding female. If you take out the alpha male you will than have several breeding pairs and the population explodes. Its a part of the coyote's survaival technique. Hence the more you kill the more coyotes you will get later.
 
Are we still talking about coyotes or wolves? I'm pretty sure coyotes have one mate and i've heard as long as both are alive they mate for life. Never herd of a alpha male in coyotes.
 
your right Coyote pairs are monogamous and devoted, living in unions that usually last a lifetime. Most coyote packs are family units consisting of a mated pair (alpha pair) and its current offspring and possibly a few of last year?s offspring (beta coyotes). Generally, the alpha pair are the only breeders with the betas helping to raise pups, gather food and defend territory. Only rarely are beta pairs allowed to mate.
 
okay those that dont think predators are a problem, you have to point out all 3 main predators, coyote, bear, and lion. I will probably word this wrong or explain it wrong, but I will give it a shot. When the DWR does there count this month they do their doe to fawn counts as well, they will give us a count of 53 fawns per 100 does, What they dont tell us and don't know is what happened to the 47 fawns that did not make it to the fall count. I asked specifically this to the DWR and they said they did not know, but they have plans to do a study to find out in the future. So the studies they have done is they know from the time they do deer counts in the Fall that when they get there number of 53/100 that certain percentage of those 53 will still fall to predation.

So can anyone tell me what happened to the 47 fawns that didn't make it to the fall count?

I have my guess what happened.
 
Did'nt read all the text so maybe this was mentioned. I heard from a ex Govt trapper in Wyoming that there are supposed to be 2,000 Mt Lions in Wyoming. A deer a week for each cat, do the math that is 104,000 deer and he said they spent most of thier time trying to hit the lone bucks in the rocks by themselves for an easier stalk and kill. And that is just Mt Lions and the wolves are just getting warmed up....
 
Here's the problem with the lion. Everyone that has a rifle can hunt deer and elk and even coyotes. Not everyone can hunt cats. Unless you are damn lucky and catch one on a kill, you have to have dogs. There aren't too many guys that have good dogs. So, most people that want to hunt cats have to hire a guy with dogs. Take a guess on how many licensed hound guys are out there. I'm not sure but I would dare say it's not many. I have way too many points for both deer and bear. I hope they give out more tags. . . at least ONE more.:D


It's always an adventure!!!
 
How do you kill a cat without dogs? Besides using traps and poison.... and a mule.

7771donkey_cougar.jpg


lol. For real though: How do you kill a cat without dogs?
 
And when you don't kill all the lions on the quota hunts, the houndsmen group say that we need to reduce tags or put it into a draw because they are not killing all of there lions, and they should know better than anyone that weather conditions and accessibility is a huge factor in some areas, not that there isn't enough lions, and also the fact that someone else put, money, time and gas. Not that there isn't enough lions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-10 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]"I will kill everything i trap or that comes to my calls period from now on and i do mean everything !!!!"

Your right kody i guess i am that stupid. You clearly did say everything so why would i have questioned it. Just dont let your ego get the best of you.
 

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