Utah Then and Now

rockymtnhunter

Active Member
Messages
198
Please excuse the length of this post, but I've read with much interest all the posts recently, and over the past few years, about Utah deer hunting and how it it isn't what it used to be - and isn't the way many want it to be now, and in the future. Everyone seems to have an idea on how to make things better - i.e. reduce the number of permits, 3-pt or better, kill all the coyotes & lions, more units-less units, shorter seasons, closures and so on. Almost everyone laments that there are no deer - and the deer hunt in UT is dead.

I first hunted in Utah in October 1968, and yes there were lots of deer, lots of bucks, and lots of hunters. Big bucks, little bucks, lots of bucks. "Southern Utah" was the place to go and everyone hunted - and places like Monroe Mtn, Manti Mtn, Dixie NF, Tabby Mtn, Monte Cristo, Skyline Drive, Book Cliffs, the North Slope, and Strawberry were legendary. There were big buck contests at Sunset Sporting Goods, Wolfe's, Zinik's, Kammayer Sports and other sporting goods stores (none of these stores exist now). If I remember correctly there were over 225,000 deer hunters in the late '60's-early 70's. I graduated from Clearfield HS in '70 and then went to USU studying forestry. I've bowhunted, muzzy-hunted and rifle hunted muleys in the Northern, Southern, NE and SE regions. My career has taken me all over the West and I've hunted muleys in AZ (No. Kaibab), NM, WY, MT (where I presently live), CO, and OR. My career started with the U.S. Forest Service and now with another federal land and water resource agency - I went to school with, hunted with and have worked with many wildlfe biologists. I joined the Utah Hunters Federation back in 1980, and later witnessed what happened to UT deer hunting in the early '90s, attended some of the first organizational meetings of SFW, but their objectives didn't quite click for me.

This year, on a whim, I applied for and drew a UT non-resident archery tag - and hunted an area near Salina where I last hunted in 1980. I wasn't sure what I would find now after 30+ years, but it used to be a great area and I had chased many big bucks there. I knew there would be a lot of hunters, roads, ATVs and development. And that was true big time - as I headed up the mtn on the first morning I was worried about whether there were still deer in my favorite basin, or whether it would be overrun with hunters. As I passed camp after camp, vehicle after vehicle, ATV after ATV on the road my worry grew and I was sure I was headed for big disappointment. I parked my truck and slowly walked through a sage/aspen meadow not knowing if this was going to be a bust or not. I hadn't walked 200 yrds before a nice 3-pt buck walked up the slope 150 yards from me and my spirits rose - perhaps there were still deer here! I walked another 15 minutes and topped out on a ridge looking into a basin that I hadn't laid eyes on for 30 years - and immediately my eyes were drawn to 5 white rumps in the growing light about 300 yards from me - I put my binocs on them and it was 5 big bucks - the biggest about 28-30" in with some extra kickers.

Over the next 5 days I saw many other big bucks as I walked 1/2 to 1 mile off the roads, but I didn't see any other hunter off the road more than 200 ft. In the end I didn't arrow a buck but I was thrilled to know there were still deer, and big bucks here. I guess what I learned is that the big bucks are still there, but you have to get off the road to find them. And there are other lessons I learned which could be topics of other postings.

A few thoughts:
1.IMO habitat is everything for deer - and lot of habitat, esp. crucial winter range, has been lost to development - everytime I return to UT I am dismayed by the amount of habitat I see lost to new homes, business development, and urban growth/sprawl.
2. Deer vs. Elk - elk are winning, but with the right mgt by UDWR with meaningful & effective collaboration from hunters, deer herds could be winning too.
3. Coyotes & Lions - Yes they're out there, but if I understand predator/prey population relationships, then there shouldn't be many 'yotes & lions because there are supposedly no deer for them to eat. If there are lots of predators, then there must be lots of prey (deer).
4. Overhunting/too many hunters - probably, esp. when you see how the Books and Henry's responded to hunting closures.
5. Family hunting - I love to hunt with my sons and their families, but does everyone need a tag to enjoy the hunt/deer camp experience?
6. Do you need to hunt every year? The harsh reality is that we as hunters need to do a reality check and understand that we may not get a tag every year - a "quality" hunt may only be available every few years.
7. Reduce the no. permits - probably.
8. Archery v. muzz v. rifle - we need to pick our weapon and that's it for the year.
9. Smaller hunting units with controlled no. of permits - yes, just like every other western state.
10. Raise the price of tags - Yes, hunters have always paid, and will continue to pay, the price to achieve effective mgt of deer herds. But those increased tag fees must be plowed into habitat acquisition, improvement and protection - and UDWR needs to get that message!

Just something to think about...
 
Good post rocky! I too saw a good pocket of mature deer this year. So I agree that there are some good bucks in this state. I don't think that anybody is saying that all the big bucks are gone. Most of my complaints are the fact that while you and I may see a pocket of mature bucks in different areas, those areas are far and few between and the total number of deer seen is pathetic. I spend a tremendous amount of time in the hills as I'm sure you do, and the numbers of deer are way down from what they used to be. No one can argue that. It's a case of year after year mismanagement. And just like any other job, if you continue to screw things up it whatever you're responsible for is not going to be worth a damn. I've always been told, and lived by the rule that good effort and smarter work habits produce results. I believe the DWR has a responsibility to the hunters that support them. I believe they have come up extremely short on production and I also believe it may be time for another DWR shakedown if things don't change soon. I don't know how many "5 year plans" we have had because I lost count. How about a permanent plan with progressive activites and contingency plans with immediate action if things stall a little. We need thinkers and doers in the DWR right now NOT politicians.

I do like your ideas. Most of them I totally agree with. Plus I value your oppinion because it sounds like you spent a lot of time in the woods.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I think that the coyote / mountain lion issue works like this.

The numbers of coyote and mountain lion do not crash as they should, as the deer numbers go down.

Reason, there are enough elk around to keep the numbers of coyote / mountain lion from crashing as they should.

This is helping to keep the deer numbers down. It keeps the deer numbers from going up when they should after a crash.

The post above touches on many things that are important, but I think this subject deserves a hard look.

However, if the numbers can't be trusted from the people doing the counting, all this is just a guess.
 
I have a hard time wrapping my head around coyotes killing many elk. Their diet is 80% small rodents and rabbits. If they do eat an occaisanal elk I guarantee it is a sick calf that would have died any way or one that was already dead. Ive seen little does stomp the $#!t out of coyotes let alone an elk. As far as the lion issue I beleive that it is also an inflated issue propagated by the mule deer dooms dayers. Honestly ask yourself out of all the times you have been in the hills how many lions have you actually seen?. I can think of 5 personally and three of those were a ##### and two cubs.
 
dleonard4, i dont if you get MDF magizine just got one today and dont know if the article is fishon approved or not but great article on the dynamics of predators in nevada and how the deer population pretty much fell as soon as they stopped aggresivly pursuing coyotes.

Quick stat from that article that caught my attention
"In 1939, 93,000 coyotes were reported killed throughout the state of nevada" WOW thats gettin with it!
 
Ask yourself this how many lions have seen you that you did'nt see. Think about all those early morning hikes in the dark.
 
I think we are talking about two different states. I do alot of coyote hunting in and around barkclay, pioch, and panaca NV and I am planning on doing a little up north this year the reason I like hunting dogs in NV is because they are everywhere. There are alot of coyotes in utah but nowhere near the numbers of NV. I am not discounting the fact both lions and coyotes eat deer. I am just saying I do not beleive coyotes are eating elk atleast not healthy ones.
 
Alright, lets me say this.

The numbers of coyotes don't go down as deer crash.

If we killed more of them, then I think less deer would be killed by them.

I think as deer are down, for what ever reason, that the numbers of coyotes are constant. This constant number helps keep deer herds form recovering.

Maybe it isn't elk that they are using to keep numbers high, but the issue is still there.

Two years ago, I hunted southern utah during the archery season. I saw as many coyotes as deer in some areas of this hunt.
I don't think the two are unrelated.
 
if you boys think the lion population is above par, then with this fresh snow and when your out and about looking for them big bucks, count the number of lion tracks you seen, also count the number of coyote tracks you cross......i'm not a lion lover, but they are not to blame for the piss poor deer herds in utah...the state of utah need to hire them boys from neveda and elimate 90,000 coyotes.....
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-10 AT 06:43PM (MST)[p]the number of coyotes are consistant because their diet is not primarily deer rather 80% rodents and rabbits. this goes right back to the post titled "slaughter the predators"
 
If you killed all of the coyotes off you will save some deer. If you kill half of the coyotes you will save some deer. However the coyote population will only come back stronger the next year.Predators are not the only if any cause of our decline. It goes back to loss of habitat from fire's, highways traveling through migration coridors, industrial and residential encroachment onto the deers winter range, disease, over hunting, and predator's. Not to mention the DWR is to busy building turtle fences, chasing prarie dogs, and counting pine cones, to effectivley manage our deer herds.
 
dleonard, there's no more coyotes in nevada than utah their jus dumber. Do you really think if they killed 93,000 yotes they would come back with more the next year? I understand that coyotes have bigger litters and come into heat more often when the population is low. The point is when they were using poison to take care of coyotes they actually were able keep the numbers low enough to keep a handle on them in every state not just Nevada. THATS WHY WE HAD THE GOOD OL,DAYS THROUGHOUT THE WEST NOT JUST NEVADA. There's also some good pictures in the article too so you might like it.
 
I will have to check out the article it sound's interesting. I beleive we can still have some good ol days if we addressed the management of our deer better and continue to recreationaly kill coyotes. I have no doubt that poison will kill a ton of coyotes. But poisons will never happen with todays enviromental regulations. It will kill way to many other species besides the targeted predator. Like hawk's eagles etc. Also with the growing popularity of coyote hunting and no regulations on when or how many you can kill I still think we have a better grip on the coyote population than you think. And if we continue the trend's we eventually will reduce the number of coyote more and more. However I will admit I am not one of those guys who think we need to wipe out all the predators. I still love seeing the occasinal lion and having the opportunity to go coyote hunting whenever. However When you talk about the good ol days of the thirtys you have to remember there was alot more habitat for mule deer there was not the increased population of elk and The DWR probably had less to do with turtles and more to do with the deer. Never the less I am hopefull I will dust a few coyotes off this year anyway. "maybe I will save a few rabbits"
 
Agree on never being able to use poison again and high elk populations. I just use the poison to point out why we had high deer #s. We still have close to the same amount of habitat in So. Utah and definately in Nevada. Even the argument about to many sheep and cattle on ranges makes me laugh cause there isnt 1/10 the cattle or sheep on the range now that there was when deer populations were at their peak. But elk have prob took that feed. All statistics say deer #s were at there peak when predators were at their lowest #s, thats not a coinsadence. Its just funny how some people disreguard this stat and think the deer herd is going to magicly grow when your right, you'll never be able to use the same tactics they used back then. If the deer were starving and out of habitat you'd see highlined junipers all over the winter range. I,ve yet to see that. My point is we'll never have the #s we had back then no matter how much $$ we spend on habitat if we can't find a way to have a big impact on coyotes.

PS I get it that you'd just as soon hunt coyotes as deer thats why you feel the way you do. I'd rather have more deer (bucks) to hunt than coyotes. thats why i feel the way i do.
 
RMHunter, Your post is spot on!!! I know the sportsmen I have spoken with are willing to do whatever it takes to help the deer herds. I for one am committed to making an all out effort to do some coyote control. I am also committed to make some sacrifices, like not worrying about hunting every year or thinking I need a tag to go to hunting camp. If we would all make an effort to do what we can to help bring back the deer #'s instead of bickering and ####ing about who is to blame, we would all see the results someday. I think if we can get a handle on the predators, distribute hunter pressure through micro-management and get the DWR to be accountable for the data, we will see the results of our efforts.

Later,
L.T.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom