Dir. Karpowitz-NO THANKS!

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
7,961
Here is what I believe about Utah's Director of Wildlife Resources.

He wrote this:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/2011-deer-changes/director-message.html

I believe this:

(I'll paraphrase so I don't get sued for mis-quoting anyone.)

After attending three RAC meeting and listen carefully to the Director's spokesman tell us:

We have all the deer we can have.

If we raise buck numbers we'll remove does from the herd or they'll all starve to death.

Closing a unit to hunting will do absolutely nothing to increase the number of doe and fawns, it will only increase the number of bucks.

We have more than double the buck/ratio in some units than is necessary and is in fact detrimental to increasing the over-all number of deer.

After confirming they only do deer counts on 7 units. (total deer counts, they claim to count a few hundred deer on each unit to get a buck/doe ratio)

After they count only seven units and use that data to tell us there are no fewer deer on the Fish Lake, Pahvant, Boulder, Beaver, Monroe, and the Panguitch than there has been in the last 10 years and don't seem care how many we had in 1990s or before.

After telling us it takes time and when we asked the DWR how much time and he said 10 to 15 years. Then they admitted there had been more millions spent on the Monroe unit than any other unit for habitat restoration and they claim they killed the cougars back to far fewer than there are now. When we asked; ? if, as you claim, you've spent all these millions on forage, and killed all these cougars and we are still loosing more deer every year, how much longer do you think we should be patience. They answer; hunched his shoulders and said, maybe another 10 years. We believe what he was really saying was, we have no idea.

After claiming micro managing deers herds is unjustified biologically.

Then inferring that having primarily yearling bucks left to do the breeding, without providing mature bucks for does to select to bred with is MORE biologically sound.

After claiming neighboring State?s management systems are wrong and abject failures.

After the Board asked the DWR to develop a micromanagement proposal and their response was the circus they have put us all through the last ten days, in 5 different RAC meetings, in order to gen up anger toward the Board and non-supportive sportsmen.

After hearing the DWR say the DWR was not responsible nor accountable to anyone for the condition of the deer herds.

After miscalculating the antelope numbers on the Parker Mt.

After miscalculating the cow elk numbers/harvest on the Fish Lake, for the second time in 10 years.

After their over all misrepresentations, their half truths, their indifference, their refusal to respond to warning after warning of what the consequences of their recommendations would be on deer for the last 10 years and elk for the last 3 years.

After refusing to use the data from Forest Service and BLM wildlife scientists and government trappers that live on these unit year round.

After a history of hostility and resistance to the sportsmen that pay their bills (not all because there are a few sportsmen that have been rewarded handsomely for supporting the DWR).

I believe the Director's letter is too little too late, it is another effort to suppress and circumvent what needs to be done for our mule deer. While he may be a very nice person, he is wrong and he is still refusing to accept accountability and responsibility for the decline of our mule deer herds and he is still attempting to manipulate the Wildlife Board?s opinion on the matter. Where was the Director during the last 10 days, why did he let Anis take all the heat and only come out of his office after he has seen the commitment of the sportsmen from across the State? The fact that the North and the Central RAC voted for option one does not mean that sportsmen from those areas did not ask their RACs to support option two. The fact that these RACs voted 22 to 1 for option one does not in anyway mean that a great many sportsman in those RAC meetings did not support option 2.


Folks remember, this movement started last year, long before the hard winter and the lack luster hunt this fall. It has taken 17 years for the stars to line up. Currently there is a pro-active, responsive Wildlife Board, supportive legislators, open minded sportsmen, a concerned business community however, the Wildlife Board is about to change, the DWR have great influence on who the new members will be, the fire will burn out again in you sportsmen, the DWR know how to grind down your energy, they have the support of a large media staff, access to newspaper, televisions broadcast systems, leverage on other State and Federal Agencies. We have an large collection of unorganized, independent thinking, sportsmen, who, without contact or collaboration have risen up to sacrifice their time, their energy and their short term hunting opportunities to plea for a solution to these dwindling deer herds. I know a legislator, who, on his own, because of his own knowledge of the deer herds he hunts, has taken it upon himself to ask for a meeting with the Director, this legislator had no idea the other sportsmen in the State were as frustrated as he is. This movement has grown in individuals and families of hunters across the State by itself. It's abundantly clear there are a handful of sportsmen benefiting from the DWR?s current deer management system, the rest of us are not, and we haven't been for many years.

If my assessment of the Director and the DWR are inaccurate and biased, why, after hours and hours of effort at the RAC hearings by the DWR?s presenters, after 60 to 80 people have questioned and re-questioned the DWR?s representatives at these hearings, after the public has responded by speaking directly to and sending hundreds of letters to the RACs, does the Director encourage sportsmen to attend an informal, media biased, anti-micromanagement facilitated personality, to be instructed on how to once again pressure the Wildlife Board to cave into the DWR?s resistance to doing what is necessary for our declining mule deer herds.

Yes, please sportsmen, fill the Wildlife Board meeting on Dec. 2, 2010. It matters, these Board members need to see and know what you know and hear with you've seen these last 10 years. If the only people that show up at this meeting are those that are demanding no change or option one your deer herds are toast. It will take another 20 years for the stars to line up again, another 20 years for another generation of sportsmen to rise up again, another 20 years for the Wildlife Board to have enough members willing to make the hard but correct decision for mule deer.

Do not let this opportunity to pass. Please SHOW UP AND SPEAK UP. I will make a difference.

Would someone please post this on the Utah Wildlife Forum and the Muley Madness Forum. Thanks for your efforts sportsmen, lets get started rebuilding our deer herds, right now!

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 02:40AM (MST)[p]Political retoric! Mr. Karpowitz, hold on to your shorts buddy! The RAC meetings are nothing compared to whats coming if you don't turn things around really soon.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Isn't it ironic that in the private sector, if one doesn't perform, they are demoted or fired.

In government agencies, this does not seem to be the case.

If he truly believes our deer are not in trouble (especially in the Northern Region), I have lost all faith in the DWR.
 
I agree,,,and copied this post to UWN & muley madness.

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 09:02AM (MST)[p]It doesn't suprise me the things you have written coming from a SFW koolaid drinker. SFW is becoming a big threat to a lot hunters because they are driven by money instead of solving the issues. They no longer follow their mission statement.
 
2lumpy..
I agree with you 100%.....
I, for one, greatly appreciate your efforts and hard work to take the time to attend all these meetings and to take a stand for sportsman in general. I enjoyed our visit at the NRA banquet and was impressed with the knowledge you had on this mule deer subject.
The sad part is that if something isn't done soon, not only will hunters of our age class not enjoy great mule deer hunting again, but also future generations of hunters will never have any opportunity to enjoy a wonderful resource!
 
but who will get the most. the average hunter. or the rich. be carefull what you ask for..w ho told the board to tell the dwr what to come with. big bucks... big money.... average bucks. fun hunt for the average hunter and family'''''''
 
I agree with the others. Thanks for your post! It's time to address this issue now! If we wait it will be too late and it will take major changes to fix.
 
While I applaud your efforts to become involved where so many don't, and your concern for our Mule deer, you post is nothing more than emotional hyperbole with NOTHING expressed that will help the HERD grow more deer. I too will be at the meetings, and hope many, many more will show up. I couldn't help but notice how you shifted "blame" from the WB to the DWR..lol

The DWR is mandated by law to follow the dictates of the WB, soooooo, where is the real blame to be placed?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 12:18PM (MST)[p]Surprise, all of this propaganda brought to you by an SFW board member........
 
2.Predators ? The Division recognizes that coyotes and other predators can cause significant mortality, especially among mule deer fawns, and that predator control is an important part of a deer management program. In the last five years, the Division has provided almost $3 million to Wildlife Services to control coyotes in areas that are important to our deer populations. Last year alone, Wildlife Services killed more than 1,700 coyotes in critical deer habitat areas with funding and guidance provided by the Division. The Division would like to expand our predator control efforts if we can obtain new funding.


Bad use of money in my opinion. They killed 1700 coyotes last year. They spent 3 million over the last five years to control coyotes. 1700 (coyotes) x 5 (years) = 8500 (Coyotes killed in the last five years)

$3,000,000 / 8500 = $353 per coyote killed.

It seems like a $50 bounty would be more cost effective and you would get hunters out killing coyotes year round...
 
If the Three main reasons for deer population decline are- excluding weather of which we have no control - Habitat, Predators and Highways, it is laughable for those who criticize SFW.

It would be easy to prove in a court of law in front of educated people who use facts and reason and logic as their decision making basis, SFW has helped do MORE to try maintain and rebuild deer herds than any sportsmen group in Utah's history.

As Director Karpowitz pointed out, the $70 million in habitat restoration - the agencies have done a great job getting the work done on the ground, SFW was the catalyst and driver in A. getting the Federal Agenices started doing the work - meeting with Bush and Cheney to get it done, and B. getting the majority of the money lined up for the work.

In 1994 when SFW was started, Director Karpowitz, then a regional biologist said repeatedly, "Utah is going out of the deer business if dramatic changes are not made to habitat and predators:" He has been sounding the alarm for a long time and has done a lot to try and reverse the natural trend. Go back to 1920, Utah had NO deer, or very, very few. Karpowtiz said a long time ago, that is the natural trend of where deer are headed if major efforts are not made.

So, mabey 250,000 to 300,000 deer is still a pretty good number, not what we want, but a hell of a lot more than was here before the deer explosion in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.

SFW also played a significant role in getting the funds for fencing major sections of highways.

SFW also get the funding for the $500,000 per year coyote control in place.

Unfortunately, the deer populations are not where all sportsmen hoped they would be and where substantial money and effort has gone into making the necessary production factory available.

A rationale and logical thinking person would then take a moment and think where deer herds would be without the over $100 Million for habitat, highways, and predator control would be, probably a lot worse than they are today would be the logical conclusion, but we will never know because a lot of work has been done and more is planned.

I don't think the Directors comments are an attempt to dodge the issue or change the decision on how deer are hunted, the RACS have heard and voted, teh Board will make the final decision. The Director is simply stating there has been a tremendous amount of work done, obviuosly he is disappointed with the current outcome and results and MORE needs to be done.

SFW members are disappointed in deer populations in utah as well. As am i, and the SFW Board, and that has been expressed in detail at all the RAC meetings.



Dec. 1 is a day to look at what more needs to be done to grow larger base herds of does and fawns,.

Dec. 2 is a day to decide how to hunt what bucks Utah does or does not have.

Finally, for all the SFW haters, SFW is leading the nation in the effort to delist wolves and return management to the states. Wolves are destroying game herds in Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho.

They will soon be in Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Colorado and New Mexico, unless the US Congress passes S. 3919 and HR 6028.

While you all blast SFW on the internet, SFW members, volanteers and staff work long hours to try and make things better for all sportsmen.

It is easy to sit and throw stones, it is hard to solve complex, expensive problems.

Looking forward to participating in the meeting with KFAN and the Board meeting. Nothing to hide, SFW has done more than any group to try and grow more deer, elk, sheep, moose, goats, and Bison than anyone, i am glad to take on any and all to back up that statement.


Don Peay
Founder SFW
 
It's real easy to sit on the net and talk the talk DP, so when you are at the meeting to defend your so called leading the fight to restore Utah's deer herds, why don't you bring the books you keep promising to open up, and show in REAL dollars what you have actually contributed. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING you come on this site and say is rhetoric and slight of hand political jargon, which you are great at. Hell, if your organization has done half of what you claim, you should be proud to open the books and show the folks.

As to your fight for the wolves, I guess it is better late than never...where were you years ago? And why the "new" wolf fight org? SFW isn't organized enough to take it on by itself, or is it just another way to get MORE money?
 
Still,

the books are open, go to the website and look.

have been in the wolf fight from day, Opposed them from the first introduction, los that one. I was the only sportsmen in the country to meet personally with Bush and Cheney to get them delisted, SFW was one of two sportsmen groups to be in the court room in Montana, Twice, ask Mike Lee, SFW attorney who is now US Senator from Utah. SFW attorney fees were well over $110,000. Expensive.

As far as the new group, Big Game Forever is set up as a seperate corporation - 501C 3 groups are limited by law to certain lobby constraints.

BGF - 100% of the money contributed by law can be spent on lobbying Congress on the issue. So, the reasons are legal requirements. Different group, different Board, different mission.

BGF had to hire certified lobbyists, have to be registered to lobby the US Congress.

What matters is having people who know how to get things done, and having the right vehicle to do it. what you call it doesn't matter as much as knowing how to get things done, and that means people and money.

Anti hunters will spend $10 million plus to try and keep wolves on the list, sportsmen will sit on this forum and complain.

So, a few reasons why the new group was formed. Also, it was an attempt to have a separate entity so the existing sportsmen groups could come together under one umbrella.
 
I for one support Don and the SFW. It appears to me that he is the only one that has enough balls to take on the important issues. How often do you see the MDF, RMEF, or SCI even take a a stance on anything. In order to get any thing done, and it is going to have to be done through the political process. Don is good at politics and that is what we need! We need to come together if we want to make a difference and I am glad to have Don in the lead. Put all your petty complaints in your pocket and get behind someone who can actually make a difference! Let's put the deer first and stop whining about stupid sh"##g!
 
Well, with a screen name like yours, it's no great wonder where your line of thinking is...

No thanks, I will support those who REALLY care about Utah wildlife, and not just growing big bucks with lots of inches at the herds demise...
 
Please don't think you can even begin to insult me about my beliefs and motives. I love Mule Deer period. I have lived and hunted in Utah my whole life and it breaks my heart to see what is going on. I am behind working together to help the deer. Negative energy breeds negative energy and vice versa. Keep putting people down and see how much you get done.
 
There was no insult intended, I was simply refferencing your screen name. If you truely love mule deer and hunting them, then I would think you would want to do whats best for them, and not just the big bucks...nothing more, nothing less.
 
Peay Wrote: "So, mabey 250,000 to 300,000 deer is still a pretty good number, not what we want, but a hell of a lot more than was here before the deer explosion in the 40s, 50s, and 60s."

What is wrong with you Peay? If you were from Southern Utah you wouldn't even say that!! Anyone down here can see the counts are wrong. They're half of what they should be on a lot of ranges.

Good for you Lumpy2 - - It needed to be said.

DWR has influenced the WB way to long. They have discredited themselves year after year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 08:54PM (MST)[p]Don Peay, you can fart the loudest, jump the highest, run the fastest, speak the funniest out of everyone I know. Are you done thumping your chest yet?

Don, where do you think you got the money to spent of your projects that havent benefitted the deer herds yet? You grabbed a lot of tags from the public so you could sell them to the highest bidder.

Also Don if the state went statewide then you can bet that SFW will line their pockets with more money. SFW wouldn't exist without taking tags from the public drawings.

Don, we still have low deer numbers despite all the money you have been spending. SFW spends more money on elk and places that will benefit SFW like the Henries than helping to fix the deer herds on the general season units.
 
Don,
Thanks for the input. +1 on actual numbers that are helping our wildlife.

Elite,
How much are you willing to pay for a tag. I guessing not enough to fill up one DWR truck for the season, or even buy some seed for more habitat?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
>
>
>If the Three main reasons for
>deer population decline are- excluding
>weather of which we have
>no control - Habitat, Predators
>and Highways, it is laughable
>for those who criticize SFW.
>
>
>It would be easy to prove
>in a court of law
>in front of educated people
>who use facts and reason
>and logic as their decision
>making basis, SFW has helped
>do MORE to try maintain
>and rebuild deer herds than
>any sportsmen group in Utah's
>history.
>
>As Director Karpowitz pointed out, the
>$70 million in habitat restoration
>- the agencies have done
>a great job getting the
>work done on the ground,
>SFW was the catalyst and
>driver in A. getting
>the Federal Agenices started doing
>the work - meeting with
>Bush and Cheney to get
>it done, and B.
>getting the majority of the
>money lined up for the
>work.
>
>In 1994 when SFW was started,
>Director Karpowitz, then a regional
>biologist said repeatedly, "Utah is
>going out of the deer
>business if dramatic changes are
>not made to habitat and
>predators:" He has been
>sounding the alarm for a
>long time and has done
>a lot to try and
>reverse the natural trend.
>Go back to 1920, Utah
>had NO deer, or very,
>very few. Karpowtiz said
>a long time ago, that
>is the natural trend of
>where deer are headed if
>major efforts are not made.
>
>
>So, mabey 250,000 to 300,000 deer
>is still a pretty good
>number, not what we want,
>but a hell of a
>lot more than was here
>before the deer explosion in
>the 40s, 50s, and 60s.
>
>
>SFW also played a significant role
>in getting the funds for
>fencing major sections of highways.
>
>
>SFW also get the funding for
>the $500,000 per year coyote
>control in place.
>
>Unfortunately, the deer populations are not
>where all sportsmen hoped they
>would be and where substantial
>money and effort has gone
>into making the necessary production
>factory available.
>
>A rationale and logical thinking person
>would then take a moment
>and think where deer herds
>would be without the over
>$100 Million for habitat, highways,
>and predator control would be,
>probably a lot worse than
>they are today would be
>the logical conclusion, but we
>will never know because a
>lot of work has been
>done and more is planned.
>
>
>I don't think the Directors comments
>are an attempt to dodge
>the issue or change the
>decision on how deer are
>hunted, the RACS have heard
>and voted, teh Board will
>make the final decision.
>The Director is simply stating
>there has been a tremendous
>amount of work done, obviuosly
>he is disappointed with the
>current outcome and results and
>MORE needs to be done.
>
>
>SFW members are disappointed in deer
>populations in utah as well.
> As am i, and
>the SFW Board, and that
>has been expressed in detail
>at all the RAC meetings.
>
>
>
>
>Dec. 1 is a day to
>look at what more needs
>to be done to grow
>larger base herds of does
>and fawns,.
>
>Dec. 2 is a day to
>decide how to hunt what
>bucks Utah does or does
>not have.
>
>Finally, for all the SFW haters,
>SFW is leading the nation
>in the effort to delist
>wolves and return management to
>the states. Wolves are
>destroying game herds in Maine,
>Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Wyoming, and
>Idaho.
>
>They will soon be in Utah,
>Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon,
>Colorado and New Mexico, unless
>the US Congress passes S.
>3919 and HR 6028.
>
>While you all blast SFW on
>the internet, SFW members, volanteers
>and staff work long hours
>to try and make things
>better for all sportsmen.
>
>It is easy to sit and
>throw stones, it is hard
>to solve complex, expensive problems.
>
>
>Looking forward to participating in the
>meeting with KFAN and the
>Board meeting. Nothing to
>hide, SFW has done more
>than any group to try
>and grow more deer, elk,
>sheep, moose, goats, and Bison
>than anyone, i am glad
>to take on any and
>all to back up that
>statement.
>
>
>Don Peay
>Founder SFW


What does any of this have to do with SFW pushing an agenda with 'no' biological merit?

According to the communication director, Karpowitz was simply using a press release in an attempt to dispell misconceptions and misinformation among hunters that the division was seeing on forums, at RAC meetings etc.

It seems that SFW's accomplishments are often thrown out by Don as a red herring to certain issues he or his organizations are catching heat over. You indeed are a very polished lobbyist and politician, even when it comes to your constituency.

In this case, SFW's push is contrary to many of Karp's statements regarding mule deer. So what exactly is motivating these ideals?
 
Muley_ 73 Hahahaha now that is funny right there. If SFW has been so great then why do we still have such low deer numbers? Once again SFW worries more about the elk herds so they can pimp more tags to their highest bidders.
 
Elite (tongue in cheek), you attack the original poster here with no basis whatsoever. So you have beliefs and oppinions. That's great. Bring them to the table. Your attacks are baseless and uneducated at best. I went to your profile and, just as I thought, just another chicken shi+ hiding behind a computer screen. Really easy to throw out insults when you hide your name. I thought your oppinions had some validity until you start attacking someone else behind a computer screen. At least most people on here, even though they have varried oppinions, will at least put their name behind their oppinions. Even though you don't agree with SFW or any other organization you deem worthy of your criticism, they still deserve respect for the hours and effort put forth for probably more years than you've been alive. Contribute or shut the hell up!


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Hahaha kind of like Lumpys rambling with a lot of misinformation and hyperbole right? Im not hiding from anyone. Not even you tough guy. Did I hit a nerve with you.

I have met you before Awholelottabull which is true because you don't know #####.
 
I agree that the SFW has not done enough for mule deer in Utah. I have told Don this in person! However they have done more for wildlife than any other group in this state and that is a FACT! For that I thank them. As far as this being a SFW issue I disagree. It is a pissed off hunters issue that has been festering for years. The SFW is only supporting this Option they are not the only ones that are screaming for it to pass. In fact I feel they have been too passive in showing support to Option 2! But you try and build support by attaching it to them to gain the support of the haters. Smart play, but probably not the most effective!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
I MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH THE selling of our big game tags to the highest bidder,but. ive worked with sfw. rmef. and md. don and sfw does 4 times more than all the rest. not just for deer or elk. but all the wildlife..and thats a fact. like it or not..
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 11:48PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 11:46?PM (MST)

elite,
Dude you crack me up, never a thought of your own. Just jumping in to jab in the fight. No name? C'mon man up if you are going to say it, then own it! Call AWLB a tough guy for asking you this and then call him out. Really what is your name? Or do you not take our deer herd situation serious enough to want to make a difference or stand behind your opions whether others agree or not? A nameless voice like the skinny little dude behind the bully in a fight! Cheering him on but sure to run away if he goes down hoping nobody notices!

Tree, stillhunterman, Hats off my fellow sportsmen, I see your names and that says something about you. May not agree with your views but at least you stand behind them.

Cody Christensen

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
I don't know why I bother here. Why is it news to you that they don't count every, unit every year?? WTF do you think I've been telling you for the last month??? Going to 29 units still won't get every unit counted every year.

99% of you are nothing more than hypocrites... How you can continue to support a failed philosophy that any professional will tell you won't do a damn thing to grow more deer and hasn't
since Peay got his boy Karp to buy in to this B.S. back in 94???

Seriously are you idiots???

When we are down to 25,000 GENERAL SEASON BUCK HUNTERS and we still don't have 300k deer in the State The current philosophy
will have won the war.

PETA COULD NEVER BUTCHER HUNTER NUMBERS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE ALL BUYING IN TO.

FOR WHAT???







*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Amen. They Surely have made mistakes but at least they are willing to fight. Seen any posts on here from Miles Moretti or anyone from any other groups. You can't win it you don't have a dog in the fight. Only if all the whiners on here would get involved will we see enough change to make a difference. Obviously we need some drastic measures. Talk is cheap.
 
"While hunting and buck harvest is a very important social consideration, it has very little to do with increasing overall deer numbers. Having a few more bucks in the post-season population will have virtually no effect on deer herd productivity or total deer numbers."



Kind of like the warning on a pack of smokes!!!

All of you wonder why the other groups are not on the 29 unit
OBAMA type "CHANGE" bandwagon??? Cause they know it won't do anything other than take their members out of deer hunting.

If you want "CHANGE" address the real issues. Cutting GENERAL SEASON BUCK HUNTER NUMBERS WON'T DO ANYTHING.



The one thing that I agree with SFW and DKPEAY on was the passage of PROP 5. You know the law that was supposed to make it so that wildlife decisions couldn't be based on emotion and the process couldn't be hijacked by a few???













*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Here is why I see option 2 as a better option,,,
Lets take the southern region for example.

Monroe is the only CURRENT recovery unit = shortened seasons..

We have other units in southern region boundaries with buck to doe
ratios RIGHT ON THE EDGE of falling UNDER 15 to 100 and becoming
recovery units,,,,,,,,,,,,AND, it would surprise me at all if they fall
into a R/U situation next year....Here are the 3 year averages..

Beaver 15.1 bucks to 100 does
Boulder 15.8 bucks to 100 does
Dutton 16.7 bucks to 100 does

So, if these units fall below 15 per 100 they will become recovery units..

If we don't change , and continue regional hunting, there is a possibility
Monroe, Beaver, Boulder, and Dutton could have 3 DAY RIFLE HUNTS!!!

Push a ton of hunters on to Panguitch lake, Fillmore, SW Desert,
Fish lake,,,,,,were there will be 9 day rifle hunts...
Bringing buck to doe ratios DOWN on those units...

The answer to this problem ,,,,,Unit management, Opt.2

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
+1 Goofyelk,
staying regional and having recovery units will only destroy the other units in the region by putting all those hunters that would have hunted the recovery unit onto other units that are doing better., Thus, making those units future recovery units.
sounds like a vicious cycle to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-10 AT 02:24PM (MST)[p] Don we know all that you do is good when it comes to the fight against wolves and we all know you have done tons in all aspects of wildlife. We are just hoping that you listen to the voice of the hundreds of thousands of utah hunters that cant afford to buy a hunt every year. We enjoy hunting as much as the high end hunter and we feel we are just getting left out when it comes to any rule or regulation change since we dont have lobby money. I know you dont have time to listen to every opinion but we just want our voice to be heard and dont want to be left out by people who think they know whats better for us. (ie. Barack Obama and Health care) We want a political figure to stand up for us and we hope your the man. So dont be blinded by the money and listen to the majority what ever it may be even if its not what you like, and do keep doing what your doing but keep the little guy in mind. Thanks
 
Well that is because the DWR does not believe we will go hunt the other unit. Or should I say don't care. They believe we can shoot all we want and it will not have an affect on the herd. If the DWR would have managed correctly in the past 30 years we would not all be fighting. The option 2 should be ONE tool in fixing our deer herds. Again it is only step one on a very long process.

The reason others don't understand, is because they choose not to for their own agenda. Whether it is hunting every year. Or statewide with a bow for months. Or just because the SFW supports it they will not. That has to be the reason because I refuse to believe that this many sportsmen don't understand that micro managing can NEVER HURT THE DEER HERD IT DONE CORRECTLY. Yes is can hurt hunter opportunity, but the needs to be set aside until the deer herd recovers! If you don't believe the DWR will use it correctly that is whole different matter that we should all address. They work for us!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Muley_73 why is it so hard for you to understand that Option 2 isn't going to help the overall health of the deer herd. It focuses on growing more bucks instead of focusing on the real issues. We need to grow the deer herd and focus on why the fawn survival rate is low instead of worrying so much if we have more bucks in the herd for hunters.
 
Best post I have seen yet.

We do need to introduce a bill that only allows the state to sell tags.
 
DING DING DING!!!! GOOFY you are about 40% right. Remember I told you last week that the units above objective will get pounded because the buck to doe ratio target works both ways here?? You Damn right if a unit is above objective and able to sustain a hunt that sumbitch will get hunted until the target is met!!!

Now the best part of the deal is that most of these units that can sustain a hunt under the magical 29 unit voodoo plan are ... You guessed it south of I-70!!!

You think the good old peckerwoods down south are crying now
wait till the migration south starts next October..

LUMPY will have plenty of company from us " Northern Landowners" and " Archery Organizations" Good thing he's not concerned about opportunity cause the wait for some southern units will probably be up to 5 years.

Way to blow your foot off for nothing








*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
"But cutting hunters will solve NO DEER HERD ISSUES."---Tony Abbott ----- Plus I know many others feel the same way.

I happen to think the people in that camp are dead wrong.

I believe we need to cut numbers in half for at least a few years and see what happens. There are many issues confronting Utah's mule deer troubles, and I think one of them, at this time, is the fact that there are too many hunters, with too many good weapons, be it bows, muzzleloaders or rifles. HUNTERS are killing too MANY BUCKS!!

If we cut the hunters in half, double the permit fee, tags will still sell out and we can at least maintain the revenue during this trying period of time. In less than 10 years Utah's deer hunt will all be LE regions anyway.

I understand this option would not be popular, but let me use an analogy to help make my point. Let's say we are out hunting mule deer in a desolate area and a rock puts a hole in our oil pan and we loose all but one quart of oil by the time we discover what's happened and get it plugged. Let's also say we don't have any extra oil so our only option is to drive back to town some 50 miles to get oil.

The area we are hunting is very steep with miles of ups and downs to get out and even some four wheel engagement will be require getting back to town.

Which do you think is the better option under these conditions? Does one drive back the way they normally drive, or does one go slower and use caution until they can get back to town and get things repaired before we chance ruining the whole engine?

My option would be to take it very easy, putting the least amount of stress on the engine and being super careful until I knew the problem was resolved.

I believe the same option would be best with our deer herds at this time, that of being very careful and not pressuring our herds at this critical juncture.

Do I think you or many others understand this or agree? No I don't. But if we don't do something soon, then the consequences will be far more reaching than cutting half the tags until those in charge, can get a real handle on what's? happening.

What I think they are doing and what I think will be done, is much like staying inside a crashing airplane so long, that when they do decide to bail out, they have not left enough time for the shut to open.

So at this point I think we need to error on the side caution!

Have a good one. BB
 
Bill I've always respected your opinion and viewpoint weather I agree or not.
Sticking with your hole in the oil pan analogy, cause it's a good one. You don't fix a blown oil pan by changing the tire cause it's the easiest thing to do and in the long run will get you no farther down the road than if you FIXED THE REAL PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH.

Bill mule deer in Utah are tho hole in the oil pan. CUTTING GENERAL SEASON BUCK HUNTERS is the lug wrench in way to freaking many hands that are grasping for the spare tire.

Fix the oil pan don't wax the truck.





























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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
All those analogies are making my head spin. Sounds like a bunch of slop-joint mechanicing to me. To fix an engine one needs to know what is wrong with it first.

Lumpy, I agree with the smaller units, but only to the extent of more attention to each herd in smaller units. Buck to Doe ratios and decrease in hunters is absolutely worthless at this point. We need to figure out why the does are decreasing. I say it's a combination of predators and overwhelming amount of elk. In fact, in the past, I think re-vegitation has favored the elk.

The Thousand Lake Mountain is the biggest failure of a limited entry I have seen. Why is it a failure? I'm not going to hold may finger in the drain plug until they figure out what's wrong with the engine.
 
Thank GOD!!!! Someone finally understands








*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
The henry Mountains has almost no hunters. They closed it down for 5 years and now it has been opened 10 years and now we let less then 50 people hunt it a year. They spent millions in habitat work and buying out AUM's. the deer herd is still under management goals for fawn to doe ratios.

But it is about 40+ bucks to 100 does. If your micro management theory and limited hunters theory works, why has it not worked on the Henry Mountains? This should be the poster child for you guys that think getting rid of hunters drastically and micro managing is the answer for growing a deer herd.

So since they closed it and re-opened it, it has been about 15 years. 50 people get to hunt it and it is still not at objective other then buck numbers.

Someone explain this to me please. we have put way to much into the henry Mountains for what we are getting in my opinion.


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
"Someone explain this to me please. we have put way to much into the henry Mountains for what we are getting in my opinion."


HA HA HA!!!! Unless you are collecting 10% from pimping a $150k
tag!!!!







*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Perhaps my analogies werent the best. And I sure agree that we need to really find out the real problems ( I think there are many) with the mule deer herd.) I could not agree more, with those of you who feel this way. My point however, is let us take it easy on the remain few until we can get this thing figured.

Like I said in my last post, let's error on the side of caution.

Have a good one. BB
 
Well you see Tony, in their minds it worked. Their are 200" bucks running around down there. This has nothing to do with the deer herd. I would bet the majority of the Don's 40% would love to ride around on their 4 wheelers and see trophy bucks just like on the Henry's. Who cares how healthy the herd is, if their are alot of bucks were in good shape. This all comes down to quality of a hunt. What a joke.
 
Don,

Thanks for the the time and effort you and others put in on behalf of Sportsman, even if many are too stupid to understnad the good you and SFW do. I get so sick of hearing people here get down on the SFW and the F&G for that matter. Most of you have no clue how much money it takes to run a sound management plan.

I started hunting with my Dad, in the mid 70's. Let me tell you my experience.

Mule deer hunting is better now than then. I see more non-yearling bucks now than ever. This year was an exception, and I put that on the hard winter. I still see the occasional giant, and that's the way it should be. I'd like to see more and bigger bucks, but there is a limit to what can be done if we want to hunt on a frequent basis.

I hunt Turkeys now, there were none then.

I hunt elk now, there were none then.

I get to hunt or help others hunt on a limited entry unit pretty much every year for Deer, Elk, or Antelope. I find I have almost as much fun going with others as I do hunting myself. The quality on these units is amazing compared to what I had to hunt when I was a kid.

I have hunted predators through all those years and they have their ups and downs like other groups. Bears have definitely increased, and other than that, not much has changed. By the way, I hunted Bear this year and it was one of the most fun hunts I've ever been on. Thank goodness there are some cyotes out their to give me something to hunt during the winter.

One thing we could do is demand that the number of cows and sheep be reduced significanly from both the summer and winter ranges and get their representatives off the board. They represent an insignificant percent of the population and thier contribution to the overall meat market is insignificant and if they had to make it on their own they could not. None of these people have any use for socialism until it benefits them!

We can join SFW to try and get more funding for our wildlife. Like it or not, the dollar is what makes things happen, and guess what little guy, if not for the big guy with the big dollars, you can kiss your opportunity to hunt good bye! Please pull your head out and quit bitting the hand that feeds you.

Thanks for a forum to rant! And SFW/DWR thanks for all of the opportunities to hunt and the THANKLESS work you do on our behalf!

Dallen Baugh
 
DUH!

WTF Tony???

Hardly any Elk there,WTF?

I'll never get to Hunt the Henry Mountains!

But BY GAWD I'm not gonna hop on an OPPORTUNISTS Wagon to destroy it neither!

How bout it Wiley?

You gonna throw me more Aluminum this year?

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-10 AT 11:55AM (MST)[p]I know that SFW has done a lot of great things for wildlife which has benefitted a lot of hunters, but look at all the things done over the past few decades which hasn't helped out the deer herds one darn bit.

Our herds are the same regardless of what SFW has done. I believe one reason is because SFW is more focused on ELK $$$$$$$$$$ because of the money they receive from the tags. SFW needs to turn it's attention to general season deer units.

We also need to make more decision based on biology instead of feel good proposals like Option 2.
 
Tony is spot on. Having a 40/100 buck to doe ratio doesn't mean that the deer herd is healthy. This herd should be very productive with all those awesome bucks breeding the does, but it isn't because the fawn survival rate isn't that great.
 
So?

You're telling us:::

After all these years We've paid DWR Biologists & DWR Officials to manage Our Deer Herd & they've been doing it all wrong?



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-10 AT 12:33PM (MST)[p]>So?
>
>You're telling us:::
>
>After all these years We've paid
>DWR Biologists & DWR Officials
>to manage Our Deer Herd
>& they've been doing it
>all wrong?

Nope, we need to give more power back to the DWR so they can do their jobs a lot better. We don't really need a wildlife Board either because the DWR should be making the decisions instead of a Board that doesn't know a lot about deer biology. SFW also needs get out of the politics and focus more on why the SFW was created in the first place.

Lately, we have also been making a lot of decisions without first gathering the data to see the results.
 
The deer herd on the Henry's truly does suck..LMAO

So, how much money have they spent on habitat, predator control, hardly any elk, why hasn't it recovered? Oh I know it's because we dont shoot enough deer.. jeezus

They cant bring them back on the henry's, but you dorks think they are gonna wave a magic wand and do it on general units? I want what Tony's having.
 
CATALOU once they go LE Statewide I'll have no reason
to come your way!!!! Damn, too bad for you CAT, With the amount of suds that goes in to my boiler you could have put CAT JR. through HARVARD









*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 

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