Preators right to exist

M

mantracker

Guest
How many of you have actually seen a kill from any predator?BALANCE is the key to any healhty ecosystem.Having lived here all my 54 years, loss of habitat and a new range land has developed from drought,fire,public access,4 wheelers,atv's, over exposed habitat,higways through migratory paths.Maybe we should look at man's affect on all our wildlife.Let's put the blame where it should be on our self's for letting it get this far.Hunting is not about killing everything that moves,but about the outdoor experience and memory's of a life time to be shared with family and friends.If we keep killing all we hunt then we have killed hunting. Man will then be here alone to hunt and kill what?Think about it.
 
Go hug a tree. Lets put blame on tree loving hippy's that try to make us feel like predators should be here. Yes predators should be here, but not in such an abondance, if hunters don't keep predators in balance then they will overkill and leave nothing for anyone.
 
We do have a right to exist, and the other predators make great sport. Three yips over the Thaksgiving break made it a great Thanksgiving!

Dub
 
Seen where several kills that took place in my day!

Witnessed a few too,ex-communicated a few that I've witnessed!

Educated just enough to know Predators Kill & like to eat!

Educated just enough to know how to Spell Predator also!

Hell Sakes,there's one Predator around here I really like and I'll protect her from harms way the best I can!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Trees are another subject.I know it's hard to blame ourselves.I AM an avid hunter of deer,elk, & varmints.How many deer have you seen killed by a predtor?How many by a car or truck?Yes say it with me a lot more by automobiles yes?To blame any one thing is absurd and ignorant.To fix anything you need to look at all aspects.Try hunting varmints see how many you find.Their numbers coinside whith that of their prey base.Man is doing the overkilling not the predators!You may want to check your spelling....ABUNDANCE. Oh ya and since when did ones hair length have anyting to do with it?
 
Smells like a granola.

Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
 
peta' oh i mean MANTRACKER.many of us spend a lot of time inthe hills. not just deer hunting. your up in the night' you have have been smelling the wrong flowers'''''
 
This is the most ignorant post I've ever read. Seriously, you are asking if we have witnessed a predator kill. Like predators grow thick fur coats grazing on grass? Every single predator eats meat! WTF!!!!!!
 
Did anyone else notice how many times it took him to spell "predator" right? That's funny ....
 
Predators have the right to exist in my home right next to all the other animals mounted on the wall.
 
we should hunt them like the old days, year round. baiting, hounds and shoot on sight! if habitate is a issue then less predators should help the deer.
 
Cats and dogs kill for sport at times. This goop about them only taking the sick and the weak is gunnybag. Get a grip, at least the apex predator, us, have limits and seasons. I have seen coyote kills and leavings too.
 
I don't agree with everything he said, but he does have a point. You cannot have a HUGE predator base without enough prey to support it, that is just common sense. For there to be a chit load of predators there has to be enough food to keep them alive, if there is not then obviously predator numbers will fall, that should be common knowledge. I think predators have a right to live here, I don't feel we should turn our mountains into a game farm, keep it wild! Though lack of winter range and roadkill is the number one and two factor in our weak deer herds if you ask me.. JMO
 
there has been a season on humans. wyoming has had handful of people killed by grizzlys and lots and lots attacked...
 
coyote chaser has a point if you dont want any predators go hunt on a high fenced game ranch. Anybody who actually thinks prdators are the main reason for the decline in our herds should do everyone a favor and go get a vasectamy. It is obvious you are to ignorant or stupid to begin to get an education and should not be breeding.
 
D, since your the predator expert, tell me how one (being "educated like yourself") can raise chickens and coyotes in the same coop. You can't, that's why humans have to control them.
 
In a world without man you have no problem. we screw up the balance , since we do we need to offset the predation to account for it. the game can handle a few cats, cyotes and car hit as well as us chasing them. it's worked pretty well until we threw the canadian wolves into the mix, you can see how thats working.

Any resource can only handle so much pressure, it's either going to be hunters taking the game in a managed mannor or the wolves taking everything . I know where I stand on the issue and I don't see much room for compromise, I think in most cases a hunter who does is dreaming.
 
Crazy stuff being said. I don't think you have to worry about killing of coyotes. They're like cockroaches. When we are all dead, both cockroaches and coyotes will be here. Of course, man has impacted this environment. We build and live on the most fertile land available, which happens to also be the winter ground. That being said, there is no "balance in nature". It is the prey that determines how many predators there are. But it is a major roller coaster ride. When rabbit numbers are way up then predator numbers follow. Note I said "follow". Before predator numbers crash, they have killed and eaten whatever they are using for food. Because deer numbers are down, as it seems to be the case with rabbits in most places I've been, then the ones that are left are getting hammered even harder. It's up to us to attempt to flatten out the roller coaster ride. That means, get rid of as many coyotes etc as possible to give the deer herd some needed rest and protection. Many other good solutions have been discussed, (road closers, no impact on winter ground etc.) but predators impact depleted numbers of deer all year long.
 
440 six pack you nailed it. it never was reintroduction to wyoming. it was adding a wolf on steroids to destroy the elk herds..
 
Man has been a predator on this planet since he's been here, so h*ll yes we have a right to exist. Man is as much a part of the ecosystem is any other animal whether it be a cockroach or grizzly bear. But the main difference is we can think and reason so we don't run on instinct. That gives us the ability to some what control our environment and the populations of the animals we prey on. At this point, if you think we are so ignorant that we would kill off all the wildlife you obviously have the IQ of a dung beetle. And yes I've seen kills from lions or at least whats left of em.
 
So you are saying we are not top of food chain?Management might mean closing area's with low numbers for a 2 year period in order to let numbers grow.It worked on vernon unit.I hunted there first year after a 2 year close numbers were way higher than before with mature bucks.And is currently producing better then average.Management may mean sacrifice alot of you are not willing to make.
 
Lion and bobcat hunting with hounds is the best type hunting there is IMHO...I can't tell you how many fresh deer kills I've seen the dogs run cats off of in the past!! So yes I've seen lots!! Just cuz you haven't seen any doesn't mean chit!!

~Z~
 
Spoken like a true redneck.If we are predators then there should be less of us hunting right?
 
Wake up and smell the deer raisins if there are no deer then there are no lions,YES IT'S TRUE LIONS EAT DEER.Bobcats on the other hand main prey base is rabbits but are also opportunist as are eagles,how ever i've seen golden eagles take many deer so should we kill all of them also?What about domestic barky van schnauzer how many deer do think they kill?Let's kill all them as well.So how many lions would there be if there are no deer?What would you hunt then?
 
I guest when there are no animals left at lease you have your wall to shoot at.
 
Who is the ingnorant one?You really think all they eat is deer meat?WOW if you think killing all predators will make bigger deer herds do you want to buy some beach front property in arizona?
 
As a wildlife biologist i log many hours in the field and have been for 30 plus years.Maybe your the one who needs to open there eyes and see the lite.As far as flowers go you are your mom's favorite a blooming idot.
 
WAKE UP and read what we are saying. NO body is saying to kill all predators, even if we wanted to we couldn't without the use of poison. Hunters keep predators in balance. So again go hug your tree and meditate to the spirits of the dying tree. Go find another website and take those on here that agree you.

If you let predators grow to high numbers there would be no need for deer hunters. It is people like you that want to end our sport of deer hunting and let nature take its course. You and Dleanoard should not call yourselves hunters, go back to hippy land.
 
RE: Predator's right to exist

I think maybe you should go find another forum. He didn't say ever that we should never kill a predator. He is simply saying their is much more to deer numbers than the idiots that think killing all the predators will fix everything. When you go to a state wildlife meeting here in Nevada there will be only a few people that think predators are the big thing. All the other people there know better!! There are so many things affecting our deer herds that we have a long road ahead of us. The couple of you calling this guy a tree hugger is a joke. Did you not hear him he has been a wildlife biologist for over thirty years? He sounds like he is a very smart person to me.

I hunt and kill predators year round and have no problem with killing any of them. I just don't believe they are the big part of the problem. In some area's they can be just not in most area's.
 
earlier was stated that road kill numbers are higher than predator kills.


DNR reports show that there are around 2600 lions in utah. I bet thats a pretty accurate number, if not low balling it a little bit. Some would say that a lion kills a deer per week. i dont think they eat that many deer though.
I do believe that one lion kills on average 30 deer per year though. ( i also like to low ball my numbers) and 30 deer per year, with 2600 lions runngin around means 78,000 dead deer just to lions alone. ya, 78,000!!

Road kills reported in 2008 and 2009 were both close to 20,000. those were just the reported ones, so even if that number was doubled, lion kills alone heavily outweigh the effects of road kill.

one less lion in utah means 30 more deer running around. 100 less means 3,000. 500 less lions means another 15,000 733 less lions in utah would mean we could double the nuber of deer tags sold in utah at the current success rate. (22,000 deer killed by hunters)


That would mean removing 28% of the cougar population as of right now.

there are reported to be 300,000 deer in utah right? just from road kill, cougars and hunters, 120,000 deer are killed every year, thats 40%.

so should we loose 40% of our deer herds EVERY YEAR or remove 26% of the cougar population and call it good? seems like it would be advantageous to kill some predators.
 
just what i thought. peta boy. 30 years living off the tax payer. when you spend time in the mountains, you should get out the truck once in a while'
 
Mule deer roadkill- around 20,000 "but nobody knows for sure" link:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=192638.0

Lion eating habits- Various sources that you can google will site that deer are the favorite food (80%), many stating that the mountain lion will eat on a carcass for a few days- eating 8-10 lbs off of that carcass per day... They will kill on avg 1 deer per week, eating 30-40 lbs of meat off each one...

So for Utah- there would have to be roughly 400 cats to kill as many deer as cars. According to the UDWR, (read pages 6 and 7): http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/cmgtplan.pdf I read this as an avg of 436 lions die each year (Through all forms of death) so that offsets the road kill issue... Though I was unable to find out what the estimated number of cats is...???

Anyway, doing away with our predatory competition is just one way to help increase the deer herd- I agree encroachment on winter habitat is a factor as well... and roadkill during migration... Can you imagine another 20,000 deer every year for even 5 years... that'd be unreal...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
The thing is unless we all want to ride bicycles deer are going to be killed by cars, I hate it but it's a fact of modern life. so that's a factor we can work on but not cure, preation is a factor we have much more control over so lets stick with that.

I'm a rancher in eastern Oregon and we are a perfect example. in the 60's and early 70's government trappers cyotes killed out and cats trapped off dang well. we grazed the crap out of the public lands and had hard winters often. we had deer everywhere, any loser could kill a nice buck in a weekend and tags were over the counter and unlimited. when 1080 was banned and trapping faded you could see the change start, in '94 when we couldn't hunt lions with dogs anymore it was the death nail to Oregon mule deer. the forage today is better than it ever was when I was a kid and we have at best 10% of the deer, give us a hard winter and they'll be on the ESA. tag numbers are lower than ever before so the ONLY thing that's changed in much of eastern Oregon from then and now is predation, if you blame the lack of deer on anything else you're smoking crack.
 
You have got to be the world's dumbest biologist. A typo hear and their eye can sea, but you butcher the English language worst then anybody eye have scene in a long thyme. O and fyi, eye have witnessed at lease 2 predator kills on my hunting least in the past year with my own I's.
 
>You have got to be the
>world's dumbest biologist. A typo
>hear and their eye can
>sea, but you butcher the
>English language worst then anybody
>eye have scene in a
>long thyme. O and fyi,
>eye have witnessed at lease
>2 predator kills on my
>hunting least in the past
>year with my own I's.
>
+1 too funny, you beat me to it!


Traditional only >>>------->
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-10 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]travis 30-06.

I don't believe a publication when it says how many lions, or deer for that matter, there are anywhere.

We can speculate all we want.

Here is what I do know.

When ungluates are counted, and a number is put up, it counts only adult deer, so there are actually more deer than are estimated, because you have to add in the fawns.

Also, when lions are concerned, the numbers vary widely from one estimate to the next. And very often those numbers INCLUDE young.

So if you include kittens, and say a lion kills a deer per week, then you have one female actually killing 3 per week to keep up with that average. If you only count the adult lions, then we are counting about 1/2 the deer being killed.

Lions also become accustomed to other forms of meat as they are available, such as horses, chukar, rabbits, etc.

Bottom line is lions are much more difficult to count, or at least estimate than deer. Lions will kill other lions, females that have dependent kittens gets killed, but the kittens immediately do not, and the kittens are then dead but not counted, etc.

Trying to quantify it is a long shot at best as to how many deer are actually eaten by lions.

I feel that we need a balance of making sure the habitat is acceptable to feed and protect the deer, and keep the carnivores at a level where they do not have a detrimental effect on them.

I also feel that just killing lions, or any other predator, by itself, will not help the deer, particularly if the habitat is in poor shape.

If we have poor habitat, and the deer are being saved from being eaten by lions, then all we did was put a bandaid on a gunshot wound. Because those deer that we "saved" will now die of starvation.

I just shot a lion Saturday. First lion I was able to get all of my dogs (a lot of young dogs) to. I killed my last one in January of 2009. This one was a small tom. I didn't kill it because I thought I was saving deer.

I did note, however, that since there were 1700 horses removed from the vicinity 2 years ago, that there is more water than there was two years ago, and I have seen a LOT more deer sign than I did 2 years ago. I did not hunt that area last winter at all. I also saw a lot more cottontail rabbit sign, and more bobcat tracks than the last time I hunted it.

Anyway, enough of my soap box.

Later,

Marcial
 
well once we run out of deer and elk to hunt, we can always switch to illegal immigrants and tree huggers- that population seems to be growing like the aids virus...........
 
If we set objectives for herd size and we're under it how do you propose to improve those numbers other than cutting predation? I don't care if lions kill 20,000 animals rather than 40,000 how else are you going to make up for that loss? don't say habitat that makes me want to scream , as I said it's in far better shape than it was when we had deer.

Our herds in Oregon are in awful shape and the wolves are moving in as we speak. it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a birkenstock wearing biologist to see where this thing is headed or how it got this way.

I realize every state has it's set of problems and I'm focused on eastern Oregon, but predation is always a problem and if you want to see what happens to predators left unchecked just use us as an example. we've tried nothing, and it hasn't worked.
 
440 - in Oregon's case, it is all out of whack because the most effective ways to hunt lions have been banned.

This is not the case in Utah or Nevada, or other western states other than California.

As I stated before, as long as the habitat is POOR, then killing predators is simply putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

In your case, if the habitat is in good shape, then killing predators should help. But, unfortunately, Oregon has banned hound hunting, so that is not an option.

I really do not know what to say there.
 
The point is we've got a situation where the lions have the right to exist, so if you want to know how that's working out I'm telling you.

The only relief I can see from the lion problem is when the wolf problem becomes a bigger problem.
 
>As a wildlife biologist i log
>many hours in the field
>and have been for 30
>plus years.Maybe your the one
>who needs to open
>there eyes and see the
>lite.As far as flowers go
> you are your mom's
>favorite a blooming idot.

If you are a wildlife biologist, then I am a brain surgeon who flies my own space shuttle to work and back.

You display the literacy and intelligence of a masturbating 12 year old and that would be my guess as to your only experience in biology!
 
>Wake up and smell the deer
>raisins if there are no
>deer then there are no
>lions,YES IT'S TRUE LIONS EAT
>DEER.Bobcats on the other hand
>main prey base is rabbits
>but are also opportunist as
>are eagles,how ever i've seen
>golden eagles take many deer
>so should we kill all
>of them also?What about
>domestic barky van schnauzer how
>many deer do think they
>kill?Let's kill all them as
>well.So how many lions would
>there be if there are
>no deer?What would you hunt
>then?

Man, you just won't stop! I will put up my best rifle against your proof of the statement....I've seen golden eagles take many deer"......in another of your wet dreams!
 
What does Bill Maher think?
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>well once we run out of
>deer and elk to hunt,
>we can always switch to
>illegal immigrants and tree huggers-
>that population seems to be
>growing like the aids virus...........
>

haha i second that
 
>The point is we've got a
>situation where the lions have
>the right to exist, so
>if you want to know
>how that's working out I'm
>telling you.
>
> The only relief I can
>see from the lion problem
>is when the wolf problem
>becomes a bigger problem.


yea, then the wolves will run off or kill the lions, sounds like a good plan.
 
hey idiot, maybe next time you try to accuse people of something you could at least sound intelligent and spell things right. Such as predator and light.
 
I'm a little late on this debate but I'll give it a shot anyway. I used to call and shoot over 50 coyotes a year on a good year. Since the black mange has wiped them out in my area I now don't even see let alone shoot any.

With the loss of coyotes we have an incredible deer problem with too many deer. I have seen 6 in the last week dieing of what they call brain worm. The state can't sell enough tags to take care of the problem. Many farmers and ranchers are talking about applying for permits to shoot and just leave them for the crows and magpies. So in respect to all posters predators do have their place.

On the bright side we are catching more and more lions on trail cams. I hope the state will open a season on them but probably not likely.
 
Carrying capacity of utah deer habitats.Available evidence suggests that important deer habitats have deteriorated through time and that the current capacity of those habitats to suport deer is now lower.Habitat effects are amplified perhaps by increasing elk numbers ,highway mortality,20,000 per year,hunting,predation.But very few experiments have been conducted to test for effects at scales of entire deer herds. as a result the ansewer to the question, what caused mule deer numbers to decline?Remains both speculative and controversial as evident in everyones response.Thanks for participating.Oh yea sorry for the typos i guess i am the only one who makes them ha! ha!SEE YOU AT THE MEETINGS
 
At the RAC meeting concerning cougar, bear etc--
We were given information concerning an ongoing cougar study being conducted by a Dr. Wolfe (true) in connection with USU and the DWR. It is a ten year study and they are into it about 6 years now. They radio collared a few cougars and tracked them. One cougar that was collared and released near Kennecot crossed the I-15 somewhere near Lehi- ended up going over into Colorado and then back into Utah and nearly back to where he was released originally. This was over a 2 year period.
They also gave this information--
There are an estimated 3000 cougars in Utah. A cougar will kill on the average 1 deer per week. However, a lactating female ( with kittens) will kill 2 deer per week.
Say what you want, they take a huge peice of the deer pie. Most of what they kill are does and fawns simply because they are more abundant than bucks. They have a huge impact on the survival rates of does and fawns into the next year.
 
According to the vet. it can be transfered by contact with any infected canine. It is unbelievable they lose all their hair and scratch sores that become infected and pus filled. It is carried by a microscopic mite. It has been sweeping across the state east to west. I live in the country and when they really get it bad you will just see them laying in the field, except there aren't anymore. They get so they aren't even able to get up a .22 finishes their suffering. They can get it just by laying in the same area or rolling where an infected animal has been.

Bobcats are really moving in as well with the lack of coyotes I hope to call a few this year. But deer are out of control. If you buy a tag they give you a bonus tag still can't kill enough deer. They opened up archery to crossbow, month long muzzleloader season. I saw probably at least 200 mulies in a 45 acre rye field last night.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-10 AT 03:23PM (MST)[p]Great cause and effect study ayy. Great post, love to hear real results in lower predator populations. I'm kinda jealus cause i've never seen a real population problem with deer as in too many.
 
Sounds familular Husker..........in summing this post up. Utah in it's grand ole days had a great mule deer population, and a lot of bobcats. It use to be said that the beaver mt. Was the largest mulie population in the world.
We know it can never be that way again with I-15 chopping right through winter range, elk competing for range, coyotes cougar and bear, filling there guts with vennison.

So why have premium hunting units that are just ok. Hell no! Our premium units should look to exceed more than they are. They should emulate the Beaver mts. During the 60-70's!

These are the units we should emphasize more control on all types of predation. Let people still have there predator hunts in the rest of the state. I'm saying any limited entry area in Utah should be like Beaver mt. In the good ole days. I might be optimistic but these already existing limited entry units have the known capacity of much more deer. They seem to be out of the way of major highways, and encrochment. They have great winter range. We need to concider these limited entry units like a vast ranch, and last time I checked chickens and sheep can live together. Elk and deer will live together until you let a coyote in.
 
440,

I read what you said earlier about the decline in Oregon deer populations coinciding with the ban on hound hunting and an increase in the cougar population. I absolutely agree with you, and I am sure most Oregon hunters that hunted during that time period would also agree with you.

I live in in Western Oregon (blacktail country), and we experienced the same population decline you experienced with the Mule Deer when hound hunting was banned and cougar populations increased. The decline in the blacktail deer population started the very next year after hound hunting was banned and progressively got worse as the couguar population increased. There was no change in habitat, increase in road kill, or any of that. This was very clear imperical evidence that predators have an overwhelming impact on deer populations.

For those on this forum that can't wrap their minds around the fact that increased predator populations not only impact, but can devistate deer populations, you need to talk with a few more deer hunters from Oregon.

It is not a theory or hypothesis that increased predators populations impact deer herds, it is an undeniable fact.
 
Yep and now with the wolf numbers climbing it's only going to get worse in the NE part of the state.

If this winter ends as stong as it's starting we are so screwed, deer numbers are so low now any loss will be devastating. when I fed this morning in a field I would have seen 200 deer in 20 years this time of year I saw 3, it's just that way everywhere.
 
Wolftrack35.jpg

wolfkill35.jpg

wolfkill25.jpg

wolfkill1.jpg


No wait a minute this can't be right. Wolves only eat sick elk right?
Canadian gray wolves have no right to be in Idaho. I say send them back in a bag!
 
I'm sure that buck was injured or had herpes or something.

You're 100% correct. when the Cattlemans Assc filed the lawsuit saying the non native Canadian wolf would hurt the endangered native gray wolf I though the had a home run. the fact that didn't mean anything to the wolf crowd tells you all you need to know about their motives.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom