Point Pools - One vs Two

[backinthegame]

One of the hot topics amid all this hoopla is the subject of deer point pools. I've yet to hear any concrete information about how this will eventually be handled, but the general consensus here seems to be that there will be two point pools for Utah deer: One for the 29 "general" units, and one for the LE deer units.

It seems that lots of passionate MM'ers are fired up about having two seperate point pools, and that's understandable. It does seem kind of weird.

Consider this though...say the WB decides to combine the deer point pools into one overall pool for ALL deer tags, similar to what Colorado does and along the lines with what seems like the popular opinion of what's best here on the forums.

If that happens, it would only seem logical that Utah residents would then have only two "true" limited-entry choices going forward...elk or antelope. Everyone that has been applying for LE deer up to that point won't need to "choose" deer anymore, since the "old" LE deer units will now be included in the "general" deer drawing.

Well...how many of those previously applying for LE deer are now going to make the decision to send their LE app in for elk? Most probably. Can you imagine what that will do to our already ridiculous elk LE point backlog?? It'll be out of control! Or MORE out of control I guess...since I'd say it's already there as is.

There are other issues that combining the current LE deer units with the general deer units would create as well, but I've yet to hear anyone mention the consequence it would have on point pools for other species, namely elk.

Thoughts?

 

[dillon]

I personally don't see the Wildlife Board combining the 29 units with the LE hunts that have been functioning. Especially where they are preference and bonus points to be addressed. Then we would be a LE state for all deer hunts.

I just don't see them doing it.

Dillon

 

[thebuckstopshere]

Yesterday we became a LE for all deer hunts state.

The WB will never combine the points. Too much money to be made. My guess is the Wasatch goes to LE and is managed in that way.

People that think its going to stay like it is with 29 general units are up in the night. There are going to be multiple seasons, multiple hunts, and multiple ways to put your five bucks into the pot for preference points.

 

[AndymanSavage]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-10 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]>Yesterday we became a LE for
>all deer hunts state.



we did not. There are still two pools; LE (Bonus Points) and general (preference points).

They will likely combine them in the future, that's the topic of this thread.

You guys that say we became LE yesterday;
By your logic, if I buy an OTC "any bull" elk tag and hunt the Uintas I have a LE tag because they sell out at some point and everyone cannot have one.

Is that what you are saying?

Then ALL big game tags are LE because there is a "limited" number of tags.

I don't get why people are saying that we went "LE" on deer....There has always been a LIMITED number of tags available. I cannot ever remember a season where everyone in the state could hunt when and where they wanted.....

We are talking about the LIMITED ENTRY vs GENERAL HUNT system in Utah.....is this really over your heads?

EDIT...this was not just directed at the post above.....

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[thebuckstopshere]

They will never combine the point pools. From the way I see it, there is just going to be more and more options to gain and keep points, so that they get you for an extra five bucks each time. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they allow those who are willing to apply for all 29 GD units and have preference points for every unit. Think of the money.

The WB gave the UDWR a blank tablet yesterday and said come up with a deer hunt for 2012 with 29 different units, and treat all weapons the same. That should scare the ##### out of Utah sportsmen, and if it doesn't then a lot is over your head.

 

[AndymanSavage]

I can also see them keeping the two pools as well....

How are they treating all weapons the same? Season length? Tag numbers? I have not heard.

Also, there is a lot that is over my head, if I knew everything I sure as hell would not visit this site....

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[thebuckstopshere]

it is still so all about money. Do not be fooled into thinking the WB took the high road. They were told what to do. Im not sure who is pulling the strings, but it aint the little guys, and it aint the WB. $$$$$ This was step one in someones grand plan to privatize Utah hunting. Don't take the bait, whoops, too late.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

>I can also see them keeping
>the two pools as well....
>
>
>How are they treating all weapons
>the same? Season length? Tag
>numbers? I have not heard.
>
>
>Also, there is a lot that
>is over my head, if
>I knew everything I sure
>as hell would not visit
>this site....
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/


Andy - I don't have the answers. I just know BS when I see it. I hope this plan works and helps and not much opportunity is lost, but that is not going to happen. This is a money game, and I truly believe this will turn out worse than anyone can imagine. I don't think people in small towns have any clue how bifurcated these 29 units will be. There are some towns where the road through town splits a unit. Some of these people in Southern Utah will go decades without a tag. ITs going to bring party hunting into the mainstream (although it already is). Its going to be a cluster.

 

[MulePacker]

andyman,

by your logic there are not any LE units as there is not a limit on (entry)or how many can apply only how many will be drawn. So in fact it is not limited entry but limited participation. And Utah has been a limited participation state since the 97,000 cap was instituted, it became a draw only state in 2010 when all tags were awarded during the draw.

Anyone who believes this not the beginning to a cluster of entry rules is dreaming, you have to look no further than how our elk system has evolved since becoming a limited participation hunt.

 

[AndymanSavage]

>andyman,
>
>by your logic there are not
>any LE units as there
>is not a limit on
>(entry)or how many can apply
>only how many will be
>drawn. So in fact
>it is not limited entry
>but limited participation. And Utah
>has been a limited participation
>state since the 97,000 cap
>was instituted, it became a
>draw only state in 2010
>when all tags were awarded
>during the draw.
>
>Anyone who believes this not the
>beginning to a cluster of
>entry rules is dreaming, you
>have to look no further
>than how our elk system
>has evolved since becoming a
>limited participation hunt.


Holy crap you guys are literally driving me crazy. I have a white board in my office and I wish I could just walk everyone through this premise;

WE HAVE 2 DIFFERENT POINT POOLS IN UTAH; LE AND GENERAL


That is ALL that I am saying, I am defining LE in Utah as a LE hunt where you earn LE bonus points in the LE system.

General is where you earn preference points for general units.

That's it!!

THERE ARE PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED TO THAT NOW THINK THEY CAN USE THEIR "PREFRENCE POINTS" TOWARDS "LE" HUNTS, AND LIFETIME LISENCE HOLDERS THAT THINK THEY CAN NOW GET A BOOK CLIFFS DEER TAG SINCE THE WHOLE STATE IS "LE" NOW.....


-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[thebuckstopshere]

Andy, I know what your talking about. I think most of us are using the all LE thing "tongue in cheeck."

My guess is your friends that are lifetime license holders are about to take it so far up their keester that they will regret the day "option 2" was ever even discussed.

And, those friends that use their preference points for LE units, well their applications will likely get tossed for that year.

As you and I agree, it is unlikely they will combine the points ever. In fact, ive not been on here in a while, but I follow the real news from the UDWR and Ive never heard any real discussion about anything like combining the point pools. You have LE points, and Preference points, and more than likely always will.

 

[backinthegame]

I hope you're right about the point combination thing buckstop...like I said before I realize that the idea of two seperate point pools for deer sounds kind of hokey on the surface, but it really seems like the best (only?) way that Utah could do it at this point.

Lots of guys around here seem all about wanting them combined to one like Colorado does, but I just can't see that working out in any way.

 

[PleaseDear]

Yeh---might as well add the 5 only LE deer units to the 29 units and go to one freaking point system---Bonus points as 50% still go to max point pool applicants.

Have ALL 5 choices matter and ya loose your points if ya draw any of the 5 choices......get the Point Creep taken care of this way and in 2-3 years max point pool will be down around 5-6 points.....

The WF is already divided into 2 different units going by the 29 units map......

Robb

 

[Daxter]

I think they need to combine the point pools. No more having your cake and eating it too, choose how you want to hunt quality or opportunity. I think it would improve draw odds for both general and LE areas, address point creep, and give my kids a better chance of someday drawing a tag. I hope they combine the systems. We worship the mighty CO and NV deer hunting systems, so we ought to conduct our draw more like them too.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[wymoose]

I agree with Dax. Utah should combine General and LE deer and elk IMHO. Don't bog down the point systems by allowing people to hunt every year and draw LE. Colorado, Nevada, Wyoming, etc. they all only have one pool for each species. Utah needs to follow suit. The hunting will only get better on the general units, and draw waits should go down on the LE.

 

[cannonball]

Daxter, you're right on. Odds would go way down on the exsisting LE hunts and wouldn't affect the others much at all. Everyone would get a chance at hunting whether it be, ever other year or more, depending how desireable the hunt is. Hunters will be jocking back and forth and many would opt for just a bonus point until they see which way the wind is blowing.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I agree. Combine the point systems and utilize the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th choices that are already in place on the application process. Up to this point they have been a waste of time. If a guy/gal wants to put in for the Henries as his first choice then do it. He can list "Unit 29" as his second choice and so on. The guy that wants to hunt a deer every year lists "unit 29" as his first choice but if he draws it, he loses his points. Get rid of the "premium" units. Whatever you apply for, you lose points if you draw. Simple. In a couple of years you would drastically reduce the wait time. There will always be units that are harder to draw than others. But the guys that don't mind hunting a unit that is easier to draw every year and doesn't have a 180+ buck around every tree, can do it.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[backinthegame]

So for all you guys advocating a single point pool for deer...how do we address the problem doing so would create with the LE elk point backlog that I talked about in the original post on this thread?

I guess if the deer pools are combined the WB could also move the current general elk tags into a draw and combine those with the LE elk tags...but there probably won't be many going without "general" elk tags like there might be for deer in the new 29 units, so it would be interesting to see how that would work out.

 

[grizzly]

Simple. DWR allows Resident hunters to apply for deer, elk, and antelope (like many other states) and one OIL species.

That way you can apply/draw a general/LE elk tag AND a apply/draw a general/LE deer tag. Think of all the extra application fees they can pull from us, it would probably pay for the tag cuts.

Maybe they combine elk to one draw, or maybe they keep them separate.

They need to combine point pools for this new system to make any improvement to the point-creep. Point-creep needs to be taken very seriously to keep recruitment of young hunters. It is hard to tell a 14 year old to apply now and he may hunt San Juan Elk when he is 65 years old; young hunters will give up and just play video games.

Grizzly

 

[backinthegame]

I agree 100% that point-creep is a serious problem that needs adressing...but I really don't see how allowing everyone to apply for every species could possibly help. Won't that only add applicants like crazy to each species' point pool?

I mean sure, lots of folks applying will be drawing tags for the "general" tags, whether it be elk or deer, so those guys will be weeded out. But lots of guys will still choose "quality" over quantity...guys with 5+ elk points aren't gonna feel like burning those on a spike tag that's for sure! We might end up with elk tags particularly going undersold which isn't good...we've got elk coming out our ears! Being able to draw second choice tags would be helpful, but ONLY if you can draw a second choice without burning points.

Plus consider this...say you've got 10 deer points currently. You want a Henry's tag let's say. Even if you're applying for archery, you've got 15 years to wait if not more. So now you're forced to either burn your 10 points on a "general" archery deer tag in the draw, or wait and not hunt deer in your home state AT ALL for 15 years!! Not good.

Again, 2nd choice tags could help, but only if you don't burn points on 2nd choice-ers...although it's not likely that many deer tags will be drawn second choice, especially not with the proposed tag cuts and especially with the fact that with the system as is guys already have been not drawing general ARCHERY deer tags over the past year or two.

Combining the point pools for deer sounds great on the surface I agree, but inside it's such a cluster that I just can't see it working out.

 

[backinthegame]

Also...if they combine the deer and don't combine the elk the problem I described in the original post is still going to run rampant. Talk about point-creep! Point creep-for deer might improve slightly, but the problem on the elk side would only run wild!

 

[slcmuley]

I also agree with combining the 2 deer point pools.
I have voiced my opinion about this to govornment representatives while the current management plan was up for review a few years back.

Here's how I envision it working;
1- add the current LE areas to the pool of units
2- all 5 of your choices will matter on your application
3- if you do not draw your first choice you recieve a point

This scenario will slightly help out with the point creep as hunters will most likely have to choose between quality and quanity of hunts.
The only way to help the point creep crisis in a timely manor would be to have a policy of "If you draw anything you spend your points", I personally do not like this sccenario, but it will show faster results.

Deer scenario recap-
-This would bring the # of deer units around 40 total

-Some of the hunts will have different season timing (Crawford, 1000 lakes).

-Even the lower quality units should not have more than 2500 rifle hunters on them at one time.
Some of the popular areas have become rediculious with the amount of hunters pounding the hills on opening weekend.
How is the DNR currently collecting accurate hunter #'s on a given unit.
Look at what happened to the Book Cliffs when they dropped the total combined # of hunters down to around 500. It's not our best unit but sure is better than most.

-We need to keep the same tag allocation we currently have reserved for the youth.

Unfortunately this will put pressure on the elk system and it will also need to be revised to a similiar scenario pooling LE and General hunts.

 

[tstewy]

Plus one on combinine. in our state right now non res get to put in for more tags than we do combine deer, go to a real second choice system, combine elk and throw in antalope by combining them it will increase the amount of tags we can pull in our life times. For an example you wait 12 yrs to draw a good elk tag and than you have a waiting period of 3 or 5 yrs i cant remember. but you you put in for deer and than you wait your 7-10 yrs for a deer tag on le unit that is about what it is taking than you turn around and put back in for elk and if the pt creep is there is might take 15 now so thats so thats 36 yrs by if you put in when ywere 14 thats 2 elk tags if you are lucky. By combining all pools it would decrease the wait time and increas the revanue.

 

[cannonball]

Question: Who exactly decides how the point system works in Utah and when do they decide?

 

[slcmuley]

Cannonball-
My thoughts are that it needs to be addressed with this current change.
Now whether or not the DNR needs to take items like this back to the WB I'm not totally sure.
I think we are better off if the board has influence on the changes. I'm not totally convinced that the DNR is anything more than puppets for special interest groups and financial obligations. I do know that if our elected officials get enough of a public uprising they will inquire about what's going on with this matter.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I would think that a decision like that would have to start at the RAC level then have proposisitons/ammendments taken to the Wildlife Board for approval. I'm not 100% sure on that though.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[Deerlove]

The state is not going to want to lose the app $ for the NR, putting in for every specis.