CWMU PROBLEM

D

DaBigBucks

Guest
With this new deer plan, have they looked into cutting the cwmu tags, or atleast up the percentage to the public. I dont have much information on this, but it seems that cwmu's can kill alot of deer. What is the pecentage of deer tags they can sell compared to tags offered in the draw? Isn't it like 8 to 1, Eight tags sold vs 1 tag in the draw. There are alot of cwmus, I think close to 100 cwmus for deer.

I think to be fair they need to reduce that alot, maybe 3 to 1, even 2 to 1. Plus throw in the longer season, etc, (not fair). This would give the public a better chance of drawing one of their tags too.

Anyone think that cwmu's hurt the deer population, or aren't fair? Should the rules be changed?
 
I doubt anything will change now... They are going to have a fun time trying to reduce the tags from 9-1 to 5-1 or less, the land owners are use to getting those tags and that's that...

I don't mind the CWMU's personally, I am grateful that they let the public on their land period... They don't have to
 
cwmus 9 to 1 what a rip off.why should they get to hunt in nov. we dont.cut the gen hunter out' but leave the rich guys. way to go sfw''''''
 
cwmu's don't hurth the deer at all. they just make a safe haven during the regular season while all the pumpkin hunters are out blasting the unfortunate deer that couldn't find a cwmu soon enough
 
>I doubt anything will change now...
>They are going to have
>a fun time trying to
>reduce the tags from 9-1
>to 5-1 or less, the
>land owners are use to
>getting those tags and that's
>that...
>
>I don't mind the CWMU's personally,
>I am grateful that they
>let the public on their
>land period... They don't have
>to

I dont mind them either, I just dont think they should get the cream of the crop. I know they let some hunters hunt their land. But I think they are ripping off the public. They need to give something up too.

Make them hunt the same dates, or greatly reduce the ratio. They would have a hard time recruiting hunters with the new 29 units, they would have to draw the same unit that their land is in.

I think they benefit way to much for just a few thousand tags that are offered to the draw.

In my opinion they shouldn't hold the cards just cause they own alot of land.
 
If any of you have ever scouted on a CWMU during the summer you would know that the deer in most area's are already there-Sure a couple move in but it not like there is nothing there until the hunting season starts. I'm glad that at least have a chance to draw a tag, They could just shut the doors and not let any public on there at all. I think if you don't like it you should buy a bunch of land and then you could let everyone in the state hunt it when ever they want.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-10 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]It seems to me like it is a great program. By allowing Operators to sell tags privately it opens up private lands that wouldn't otherwise be open to hunting at all. Yes, the public hunters don't get as many tags, and I don't think they should.
You go out and buy 10,000 acres and have someone tell you that if you want to sell tags for your land you have to give half of them away... Then explain to me how you're suppose to make a profit... Or should you do it out of the kindness of your heart... Lets be realistic. It is a BUSINESS ! ! !
If you could make money hunting and guiding others would you do it? I believe that a lot of people are extremely jealous because these guys get to do it and you don't...
Go buy your land and you can do it too...
Not trying to make anyone mad, just trying to provide a different view...

CSO

It's all about the good times...
 
cool. you dont own the willife. t'he state needs to stop puting all you guys in the wildlife business. buy all the land you want. but dont think utah sportsmen are going to let you sell the publics wildlife to pay for it;hows that for view.
 
Hey guys! Like it or not, if the animals are on private property they pretty much belong to the owner, even though the law says they don't. Go anywhere in other states and the private land is all locked up by outfitters or the owner themselves and they are charging whatever they can get to let the public hunt on that land. It is putting hunting out of reach of the common man and is about the way everything is going here in the good old US of A where the middle class is shrinking rapidly!
 
You guys??? I am NOT affiliated with any CWMU ! ! ! If I had the land I'd be first in line to get a CWMU. I know a LOT of guys that hate having to patrol their borders cause its PRIVATE PROPERTY and they don't want anyone on it. A CWMU creates opportunity for people.
Tell me, what is the difference between a private land owner not allowing people on his property and a CWMU? The only difference is the private land owner doesn't have to allow ANYONE on his property. The CWMU allows hunters on their property under their supervision. They can control what happens and when... If you owned property you would too.
Or I guess the state should just change the laws and take away all private property rights... Anyone and everyone should be allowed to go where they want when they want... Right???
CSO

It's all about the good times...
 
Cool:

The problem with your thinking is that private land owners can sell ALL of the access to their lands if they want. The CWMU program allows landowners to hunt much better dates. In exchange they allow public hunters to hunt private land. It is a mutually beneficial program. The problem I have had with the CWMU program is that some of the CWMU's were made up of public grounds. I am not sure if this is still the case but I think it is. If a person owns a lot of land and they want to control the hunting on their land they can. I don't think anybody would argue against that. If that land owner wants to hunt STATE animals from September 1 through November then they should have to give opportunity to the public. I don't know what the % should be but IMO 9 to 1 is not right.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-10 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]Utah,
Thanks for the response. I agree that state/public grounds should NOT be part of a CWMU. I grew up on a farm/ranch and I know how hard a lot of the those guys work. The reason I like the program is because it provides another source of income to the property owners. Even if it is run by a separate operator the owner still gets paid. There is a piece of land near our old farm that no one is allowed on. We use to hunt on it (with permission) but a new guy came in and bought it and now no one is allowed on it. There are a lot of wildlife programs (WMA, CWMU, ect...) that would allow people back on there but he has no interest. Its not big enough for a CWMU but if it was I'm sure he would go for that. He would make enough to cover his taxes and maintenance, even if he had someone else run it. I think it would be the only way to get him to let people on.
An earlier post stated that if the animals are on private they are basically the property owners animals. That is a cold hard truth. But the property owners need to have incentive to let people on their land.

CSO

It's all about the good times...

EDIT: Yes the seasons are longer, but in the big scheme of things the pressure on the deer in a CWMU is a LOT less over those three months than the public gives the rest of the state during the Rifle, Muzz, and Bow hunts... And only 10 deer are shot a year (in most of the units) In fact, I know some operators that kill less than what they are allowed so they can have a more diverse herd...
 
Just a thought..... If the darn cwmu's offer that much better hunting than public land why don't we (UtF&G and hunters) take a chapter or two out of their book.

It's called MANAGEMENT!

Why shouldn't the public land be as good or better for hunting?
We have alot more land in Ut which is public.

just my 2 cents

Zeke
 
What CWMUs include public ground? I think there may be a few, but I think they're pretty isolated deals and the public ground is landlocked with no public access. I also believe they're required to give a larger percentage of tags to the public.

I'll agree that if a cwmu is below population objectives/buck to doe ratios that it should have its tags cut, but most cwmus aren't going to fall into that category.

I also believe that if it weren't for a lot of cwmus there would be fewer animals on nearby public lands. It's kind of like hunting close to the pheasant farm or fishing by the fish hatchery.

I also find it interesting that guys b%>tch and moan about season dates, when a guy with a dedicated tag or archery tag can basically hunt deer for 3 plus months.

I agree that the program isn't perfect, and there are probably a few units and operators that should be closed down, but overall I think it's a good thing.

I also know that for every bad operator and cwmu there's tenfold tresspassing, poaching, disrespecting, private property destroying, littering, jealous "public" numbnuts out there. And this is largely why we've seen so much private ground closed down for the average guy. It's absolutely sickening some of the crap
people pull just because it's private ground. Sadly it's also why we're seeing a lot of public areas closed down too.

Guys that draw the tags should be given every opportunity to harvest as the paying guys, and I believe by and large this is the case. I believe on some units they may even be given a better opportunity because the operators know how important the public hunter is for the success of the program.

I believe this is why overall hunting satisfaction is higher on cwmus than on le units!
 
Yea, we know it is a business. That is the problem. Are they ripping off the government? Making too much off the government? Sure its their land, but not their deer.

Would we all like to make thousands off the government? Of course. And yes, the smart cwmus manage the bucks better by not using all their alloted tags.

My concern is that with all these cuts going on, the cwmus should be cut also. If they dont like the cut in tags, then drop out. If they stayed in it, they would still make money. Money that they would not have if they drop out.

You could drop the cwmu program, and only cut tags 10,000 instead of 13,000 in 2012, and it would be the same thing. But now, some of the public drawn tags would be allowed to hunt the private property (formally cwmus)if they have permission, or buy tresspassing fee. This would put less hunting pressure on the public land.

Hows that food for thought........
 
This would also resolve the public hunter vs the paying hunter problem that some of them have.
 
I've hunted a few CWMU's, primarily for anterless elk. I'm willing to wait a couple years just to have the opportunity to hunt antlerless elk on a couple CWMU's because of the quality of hunt that is offered. Almost all antlerless elk are drawn by public hunters, some CWMU's do sell antlerless permits but, many don't. If the CWMU is a 90/10 split with antlered game it generally is 100% anterless to the public. So, here is a case where the public benifits over paying clients. Good deal if you ask me.

I also know personally a family that has property in the CWMU program and I have relatives that own property that receives land owner permits (not CWMU). Both families deal with trespassing and damage to fences almost every year. Apparently some idiots (I won't call them hunters) believe because for what ever reason they should be able to hunt on their lands. I don't know how much the landowners make but, I don't think they are getting rich of the program, especially after cleaning up after the trespassers.

It would be nice if all the public (most do) would respect private property, public land closed roads and no poaching.

Smokepole
 
My family ownes a ranch on the pauns and yes we get landowner tags. were not in the cwmu its bS!! you cant let anyone hunt on youre land no matter who it is unless they have a cmwu tag, and we believe its wrong to use rifels in sept while the deer are still in velvet and fairley dumb. the cwmu should follow the same season dates as evryone els. Being from kanab i know most of the landowners, they mostley agree thier are a few greedy ones who wont budge but thats life. feel free to hunt on are ranch if you will blast all the elk u see.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-10 AT 08:20AM (MST)[p]
I will chime in here a bit just for FYI purposes.

For those of you (TRAVIS et al) who feel so strongly about making cuts to the CWMU program here are a few things to consider.

1--first CWMUs are 90/10 split for elk and deer (bucks and bulls) and a 60/40 split for moose and pronghorn. IF there are public lands (landlocked lands or lands for boundary purposes) the split will be greater to the public based on the proportion/percentage of public lands included. I would hope that satisfies you guys who feel the split should be greater, it is if they have public lands. Park Valley Herford is a great one to look at, look at their on line management plan.

2--Our surveys have shown that if the rules were chanced to the split for more tags to the public most of the CWMUs would drop out of the program. And once again wildlife would be a liability not an asset to most landowners and likely we would see more 40 acre cabin lots, depredation calls to the UDWR would increase significantly and we would kill a bunch more does. I would hope that everyone realizes that these guys don't have to put their property in a CWMU, they could just get landowner tags and close it off completely to the public.

3--I have asked this question before and never received a good answer so i will ask it again. Before I do, I will completely agree that some CWMUs ought to take a cut in tags I have said it before some ought to be out of the program entirely, however, if a CWMU has a higher buck to doe ratio than surrounding public lands (based on actual counts and classifications), if the CWMU has a higher density of deer per area (based on counts)than that of adjacent public lands, if on average the CWMU is harvesting 3+ year or older deer (on average), if hunter satisfaction indexes are higher than on limited entry units why would you want to cut their tags and essentially force them out of the program or force them to shut their doors completely to the public?

4--know that all CWMUS have a 3 year signed contract right now which most run through 2011 (this hunting season). Also know that most will be looking what they can do to reduce their permit numbers but also know that this will reduce public hunter even further. For example i know one CWMU that gets 18 deer tags and 2 to the public. They use 6 for themselves or clients and burn the other 12, I already know they are going to reduce their 18 by half 9, leaving one to the public. So there you go, voluntary reduction of tags and one less public hunter.

Consider that....Hope that makes you feel better Travis et al.

Once again, I welcome any emails or phone calls if you would like to discuss and debate it further.

Thanks and Merry Christmas

Todd Black
BTO
 
Thoughful post Todd. Thanks.

It sounds to me that all the consternation is simply a case of "you have a better toy than me so throw yours away or I'll keep whining". It's the old case of "if I can't have her, nobody can".

If the operators over hunt their property it will soon become just like our general deer hunt (over harvested)). It's a case of supply and demand....if their supply goes down, so will the demand. I'm sure the operators understand that.

What little I know, I'm sure some properties are managed better than others but by-in-large they provide a good hunting experience.

I for one am glad for the cwmu program. At least we have an opportunity to hunt property which we otherwise would not. It also take some pressure off the public LE permits.

Respectfully, Zeke
 
I would agree with you. But the deer and elk don't know the meaning of that fence, they just jump it. Then once they cross the fence, particularly elk, they can be shot at for a solid 3 months!! One CWMU I hunted for deer, counted on the elk herds moving on and off their land. Most of these units ARE NOT big enough to have a resident herd. Therefore the public land and "public herd" if you will suffers because of the CWMU over hunting.

They should cut all CWMU tags in half. And kill the ones that the general public are not happy with. I could care less that they let one hunter on their land, if you get rid of the CWMU that is 9-10 animals not shot. All they could hunt is the general season if they were not a CWMU.
 
You bring up some good points. But you know I don't care that they would still get landowner tags, cause land owner tags have to hunt on the regular season dates. The animals on some/most CWMUs cannot take the constant 2-3 months of hunting pressure. CUT THE CWMU SEASONS!! that is my point.

They can exist all day long, but they have to have limited seasons, none of this bull crap where they can hunt elk from September through November.
 
Here is my take on the CWMU situation, Take the Grouse creek area of Box Elder county for bull elk for example, the majority of the public land enrolled in CWMU's (37,924 acres) are accessible to the public with a little planning and boot leather. they made 37,924 acres in a sense private by including them into CWMU's for elk, this also makes them off limits to spike hunters.

for the public LE hunt there is 2 tags available, some years the public hunters find the elk on the available open ground, others they sit and watch them on the public ground that is currently enrolled in CWMU's. for those who are curious here is the breakdown on the rest of the unit that is currently enrolled in CWMU's, all #'s were taken from the UT DWR web site

TWIN PEAKS-GOOSE CREEK:
15,528 total acres 4 private tags
10,400 public 3 public tags
5128 private

GROUSE CREEK:
53,392 total acres 2 private
30,352 private 2 public
23,040 public acres

DOUBLE CONE:
9249 total acres 3 private
4884 public 3 public
4884 private
 
This situation reminds me of a joke I heard in Russia back when it was still a Communist nation.

A peasant finds an old lamp. When he picks it up a genie comes out and tells the man he can have any wish he wants.

The man immediately starts talking about a wonderful cow his neighbor owns. It gives five gallons of creamy milk a day, it hardly eats any hay and it has a mild disposition. It is really just the perfect cow.

"So you want to have a cow like your neighbor's?" the genie asks.

"No," says the peasant. "I want you to kill my neighbor's cow."
 
pookie...

Really!! "The animals on some/most CWMUs cannot take the constant 2-3 months of hunting pressure."

If that were really true and I'm not sure where you get that info, then we should cut even more from UT's 84000 permits, cut cow elk tags and just cut tags all over on the public lands. How is starting archery mid august on public lands and ending cow hunts the end of January on public lands any different????

I would subscribe to your theory of disturbance if you wanted to talk hunter density but not season length.


Todd Black
BTO
 
Didn't realize there was that much public in those box elder units, but the elk split seems pretty fair.
 
funney todd when that guy a couple weeks ago 'said you was a low life skunk'. we dint hear your side of the story was he full of air or what.../..///??? .or was that some one else..
 
Prism, it is not that the split is fair, but the fact that it took all those acres from the public hunters for both the LE hunt and the spike hunters. the only reason these CWMU'S are able to exist is the public acres....as it was stated above public acres are included to make common boundrys, or landlocked acres....this is not case here...and most likely across the state
 
Sounds like a different deal up there. All of the cwmus I'm familiar with are 100% private land. I can see your frustration.
 
I will be honest here guys, if it weren't for the CWMU program I would have quit hunting deer in utah a long time ago. I enjoy hunting a piece of ground, finding a buck and hunting that buck for a few days with limited pressure. If you call 5 days of looking for run down deer with 2000 other people on the same side hill on public land HUNTING, well then that sucks. I could not believe a few years ago when I went with a friend on a public deer rifle hunt. It scared the crap out me!!! I will not let my children grow up and learn how to hunt like that. I will spend a few dollars every year and enjoy my hunt and teach my children what my father and grandfather taught me. Learn the land, love the hunt and pick an animal you want to harvest and hunt him. This is hunting to me. I don't understand people CHASING deer and shooting at scared to death animals hunting. The CWMU program gives me a chance to HUNT every year, regardless of success I value the experience so much better. In fact I will say it, I would rather have the general hunts last 30 days so I could have a public area to hunt an animal without 5000 other people around. It would limit the pressure wouldn't it? Or is everyone going to hunt all 30 days? Are too many deer going to be killed in a 30 day season? No not if we manage the tags and units correctly. So yes, I will spend a little money every year to enjoy the outdoors instead of giving it up. That is just my priorities. That private land is the best hunting around!!!! I do not make a lot of money but one thing is for sure, I have learned to enjoy my vacations. 2500 dollars is the best 5 day vacation I can buy regardless if I kill an animal or not. The past 7 years of hunting have been the best of my life. Why not take advantage of a CWMU hunt?
Curtis Wilson
Monarch Mountain Taxidermy
 
I have never hunted a CWMU but I think they provide a great oppurtunity for some hunters who want a better experiance in hunting if they want to buy a tag or draw a tag. I think some people feel their intitled to other peoples hard work and sacrifice just because the grass looks greener. +1 on UDWR taking some pointers from CWMU on manageing wildlife.
 
Todd,
So why do the landowners get so excited about the program? Why do so many CWMU operators get so frustrated with the public and stayed enrolled in the program year after year?
If I had a piece of ground, why would I want to enroll in the CWMU program? I would like to find out all the benefits these land owners are reaping. There has got to be a huge tax credit or something to keep these guys in the game.

Thanks,
Matt
 

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